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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
May 23, 2023, 10:18 PM
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- Donald Trump
In the summer of 2019, after back-to-back mass shootings in Dayton, Ohio, and El Paso involving an AR-15-style pistol and an AKM-style rifle, Trump told aides that he wanted to ban AR-15s, according to people present for the statements.
“I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15,” Trump told aides as he flew on Marine One to the White House in August 2019, according to a person who heard his comments.
As one former official put it in describing the real estate developer turned politician, “His reflexes were a New York liberal on guns. He doesn’t have knee-jerk conservative reflexes.”
But Trump was also petrified of the NRA and others taking him on, former advisers said, and heard from a number of advisers that it would be unpopular. Trump ultimately stopped entertaining the idea of working with Democrats on gun control later that year, when he was caught in a scandal over his now-infamous phone call with Ukraine’s president.
“F--- it, I’m not going to work with them on anything. They’re f---ing impeaching me,” Trump said in one Oval Office meeting, according to a participant.
https://www.emilypostnews.com/p/donald-trump-i-dont-know-why-anyone
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Valley Legend [12646]
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
May 23, 2023, 10:33 PM
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millions of americans agree with that statement
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Orange Blooded [2395]
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
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May 24, 2023, 10:31 AM
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I can settle for an AR-10
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Top TigerNet [30642]
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Paw Warrior [5001]
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Re: Another celeb take
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May 24, 2023, 8:33 AM
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ICE T is 100% right. It’s about defense against tyranny. I can not understand why people don’t understand that.
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Game Changer [1940]
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
May 23, 2023, 11:46 PM
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As much as I like Ice T, I don’t think his statement is very well thought out. I also think that at one time and place perhaps having a gun would help defend against a rogue gov.
Real talk here: If the government were after you your AR might be conforming for a moment, but wouldn’t help you against a tank, or many many well trained members of the armed forces, fighters/bombers, missile launchers…. So unless you have some Blackhawk helicopters armored fighting vehicles… we’ll…
Citizens are shot every day by government officials in their homes if they even appear to have anything that might could maybe be a gun. Now imagine if the US marines, seal team 6 or other special forces came knocking
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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Yes. Look how fast Russian tanks and military might
5
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May 23, 2023, 11:53 PM
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Overran Ukraine and their armed citizens in the early days of the war. Oh wait….
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TigerNet Icon [152377]
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I can't imagine you're making the argument that Ukraine
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May 24, 2023, 12:09 AM
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fended off Russian tanks with rifles of any flavor, are you?
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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I’m making the argument that Ukraine did pretty well
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May 24, 2023, 12:16 AM
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For themselves with a well armed citizenry, some homemade drone ingenuity, and the occasional SAM or two.
You aren’t making the argument that Ukraine’s weaponry was anywhere close to Russia’s in the early days, when Russia expected control of most of the country within a matter of days, are you?
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TigerNet Icon [152377]
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I'm not making that argument, no.
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May 24, 2023, 12:25 AM
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But you also seem to be positing that Ukraine didn't fall explicitly because its citizens were armed, which would seem to ignore the fact that Ukraine had a standing army north of 200,000 and they were WELL equipped before Russia started moving towards their border. Not equipped enough to withstand any extended conflict without armaments and intelligence from the US in particular, but it wasn't a country of sitting ducks but for armed citizens.
Speaking of, there's roughly one gun per 10 citizens in Ukraine--that's a far cry from around 3 per citizen in the US, somewhere north of a billion effing guns in this country. I own a few of those billion, fwiw.
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Game Changer [1940]
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Re: I'm not making that argument, no.
May 24, 2023, 12:30 AM
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Beat me to it. Obed’s point missed the point
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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3 per vs 10 citizens per
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May 24, 2023, 8:15 AM
[ in reply to I'm not making that argument, no. ] |
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Man, imagine how well we would have done vs the Ruskies!
Seriously though, the “They got nukes and tanks!” Argument, as if we might as well just lay down and surrender if called upon, just completely ignores the complexities and difficulties of those types of weapons against guerrilla tactics. We’ve seen it around the world (in Afghanistan for one vs our own weapons) and Ukraine absolutely makes the case for the value of armed citizenry against higher level weaponry. It’s a null argument that 2a’s original intent is decimated by modern weapons of war.
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TigerNet Icon [152377]
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As Jimmy said, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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May 24, 2023, 9:27 AM
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When the 2A was penned, the government and citizens had equal armaments (for the most part...govt. probably had more cannons). As the disparity in firepower and sheer technology of the govt. vs. what private citizens are allowed to own expanded, particularly over the last 30-40 years, the value and intent of the 2A as written certainly diminishes. Not to zero, by any stretch, but certainly not as impactful as originally designed.
Ukraine-Russia has a lot of variables that led to where we are some 15 months after it started, including Russia not being the modern military machine they postured as and being manned by a significant number of troops who don't know why they're in Ukraine and don't believe in what they're doing. Your AR will work well against 200 Russian troops moving across a field. Your AR won't have much effect on 3 Russian tanks moving across the same field.
Reminds me of this, but way worse than Cold War Russian tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA&ab_channel=NetflixIsAJoke
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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Well, this aspect is just one part of the legal and
May 24, 2023, 9:54 AM
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philosophical underpinnings of the Second Amendment. But I'd also counter your above assertion that while there is a disparity in firepower today compared to the late 1700s, this is balanced out by the nature of warfare. We're not lining up in formations in the middle of fields to go toe-to-toe. Where citizens would play a factor is in urban warfare. In this environment, tanks are less effective and small arms more effective.
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TigerNet Icon [152377]
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Don't disagree, but again...somewhere in the middle.
May 24, 2023, 10:06 AM
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A friend (of a friend) who is a US Marshal showed us his "work truck" a coupla 3-4 years ago with some of the tactical gear SWAT teams use. One of them was a contraption about the size of a small shoebox that a pair of officers could take up to a house/building behind a shield. Put it against the wall, and it shows exactly how many heartbeats are inside the building and where, and when they move.
If police forces have that level of tech (years ago), then it's a safe assumption the military is 10+ years ahead of them. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that a drone could pinpoint individuals in a large building, and direct an automated rail gun through 6 walls to drop him. Our military tech is decades ahead of Russia's, at least. Maybe more. Nothing would be fair about a fight between US citizens and the US military.
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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True, but a much more realistic scenario that is still in
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May 24, 2023, 10:12 AM
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line with underlying premise is a temporary, non-military but armed occupying force. Think what ANTIFA did in Portland with the "autonomous" zone, but much more aggressive.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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You’re not thinking broadly enough.
May 24, 2023, 12:35 PM
[ in reply to Well, this aspect is just one part of the legal and ] |
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If we got to the level of “tyranny” required to get a significant portion of the country to rise up against said tyrannical govt, then a good portion of our volunteer military (and their leadership) would be joining the citizens and bringing their armaments with them.
To be clear, I’m not talking about Ruby Ridge and 50 Branch Davidians, nor am I a prepper nut who thinks about this stuff much. What I’m talking about though is a large scale conflict where the govt has crossed boundaries that large swaths of the population aren’t willing to tolerate. There is no easy victory to be had whatsoever for the military in that scenario unless they want to take the ultimate step, leaving that piece of ground uninhabitable for a hundred + years.
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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The truth is somewhere in the middle.
May 24, 2023, 12:29 AM
[ in reply to I’m making the argument that Ukraine did pretty well ] |
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Russia didn't make it to Kyiv because they got bufu'd hard at Hostomel and never had a chance to regroup.
However, had they made it to Kyiv, they were going to face hell on earth from citizens now armed with both tradition weapons and homemade Molotovs. There is no understating the significance of what happened in Kyiv with one of the fundamental principles of the Second Amendment. Yeah, and AR may not repel an invading army with heavy armor, but it will give you a fighting chance at self-preservation as you wear down the will of invaders to remain an occupying force.
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Ring of Honor [21656]
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Re: I can't imagine you're making the argument that Ukraine
May 25, 2023, 6:52 AM
[ in reply to I can't imagine you're making the argument that Ukraine ] |
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Or Javelin missiles. Or HIMARS rockets. Or Bradley M-2 fighting vehicles. Or...well, you get the idea.
Nor were these guns in private hands. Nobody is arguing the military's need (or right) to keep and bear assault rifles. Some of us just quibble with the need to have them in civilian hands and available at every Bass Pro Shop, where they will then be sold by some indifferent 19-year-old clerk over the counter who could care less what the customer then does with them.
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All-Time Great [90469]
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If the US armed forces wanted to take out a large group
May 24, 2023, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’ ] |
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of say, "insurrectionists" on American soil, they'd have no problem using drones or a missile from 50 miles away.
There would be no chance for meal team 6 to load up their high cap mags for their PSA AR-15s. One second they are talking about how they are going to overthrow the capital, and the next they'd be dead. They'd literally never know what hit them.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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That’s a far fetched hypothetical that the govt
May 24, 2023, 8:21 AM
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Would find itself in the position of non-discriminately taking out thousands upon thousands of citizens, for both reasons ethical and the horrible optics of it that would simply turn more of the citizenry against them.
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All-Time Great [90469]
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Lincoln did.
May 24, 2023, 9:28 AM
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I guess that could never happen again.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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You think Lincoln woulda dropped a nuke huh?***
May 24, 2023, 12:44 PM
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All-Time Great [90469]
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I'm pretty sure Sherman would have.
May 24, 2023, 2:40 PM
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More than one, if he had them.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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Dunno
May 24, 2023, 6:47 PM
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There’d have been nothing for him to rape or rob if he nuked the south.
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110%er [4065]
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Re: If the US armed forces wanted to take out a large group
May 24, 2023, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to If the US armed forces wanted to take out a large group ] |
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of say, "insurrectionists" on American soil, they'd have no problem using drones or a missile from 50 miles away.
There would be no chance for meal team 6 to load up their high cap mags for their PSA AR-15s. One second they are talking about how they are going to overthrow the capital, and the next they'd be dead. They'd literally never know what hit them.
Speaking as someone who spent 20 years in the military and another 8 contracting with the drone program, let me tell you a little story about Afghanistan.
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All-Time Great [90469]
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Go on...***
May 24, 2023, 9:28 AM
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Top TigerNet [30642]
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Its cute that we still assume the military would be 100%
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May 24, 2023, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to If the US armed forces wanted to take out a large group ] |
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on one side in a civil conflict ...
Cause the North had all the militias in the Civil War.
Lee was a great Northern general ...
Oh wait ...
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All-Time Great [90469]
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I guess meal team 6 is going to have a difficult time
May 24, 2023, 10:55 AM
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figuring who is on their side...and who isn't.
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Campus Hero [13465]
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Neither do I. I don’t use one to hunt deer or hawgs, can’t
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May 23, 2023, 11:57 PM
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hunt birds with’em. They just look like a military weapon and you can blast high grain ammo through high cap mags. Fun? Maybe. But it’s the crack cocaine of rifles for gun nuts. And gun weirdos love their crack. Unfortunately, so do whackos who want to kill lots of people.
And don’t give me that GD BS about, they could use a handgun, or a knife, or a car. Look , we don’t have an epidemic of idiots knifing people or running people over. We have a very specific problem with whackos using cheap rifles, designed to look cool, shoot high velocity rounds, outfitted with high cap mags. That’s the problem and it’s combined with sick people who feign terror that the gubmints gonna take their guns away because they’re gullible AF for listening to the NRA.
NRA was respectable 40 years ago.just imagine..they taught hunting safety courses to 12 yr olds before they became money hungry political hoars. The NRA and the AR are fantastic symbols of American stupidity.
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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Don't over-think this one old slac.
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May 24, 2023, 12:31 AM
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This is just a shot at the Trump tankies who thought him to be such a wonderful 2A president. He was worse than Obama on guns.
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Campus Hero [13465]
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I don’t buythe 2a BS. Our gun culture is effed up thanks to
May 24, 2023, 1:00 AM
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the NRA. 2a should be enforced as it was written or abolished.
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Legend [6710]
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Re: I don’t buythe 2a BS. Our gun culture is effed up thanks to
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May 24, 2023, 1:35 AM
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If you actually think our gun culture is effed up due to the NRA, and not precipitously declining moral values, you're dumb as a box of bullets.
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Orange Elite [5253]
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Re: I don’t buythe 2a BS. Our gun culture is effed up thanks to
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May 24, 2023, 7:48 AM
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You gotta LOL everytime a MAGA tries to play the "moral values" card.
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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All-Time Great [90469]
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The folks that typically say they are "Pro 2a", also believe
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May 24, 2023, 8:12 AM
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(when you corner them with it)that they think there should be no infringement to ANYONE owning a firearm--regardless of age or mental condition.
Certainly no one here believes that correct?
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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I did make a mistake in my post
May 24, 2023, 8:32 AM
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I said "control" when I meant "culture". But I concur; there needs to be some level of control for the reasons you cite.
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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No, the NRA is directly responsible for the toxic gun
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May 24, 2023, 8:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don’t buythe 2a BS. Our gun culture is effed up thanks to ] |
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culture. They went from rights advocacy and education, to Second Amendment "content creators." It's why today's defense of the Second Amendment is mostly "imma show my gun off on this here tiktok and the government man can't tell me otherwise," rather than anything that would remotely resemble even a hint of intellectual understanding of the right.
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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This. The NRA directly changed its ideology
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May 24, 2023, 8:34 AM
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And went through a ideological shift with new leadership somewhere in the 70s or 80s. IMO, they actually hurt the cause of the 2A and try to scare the public into buying more guns because the manufacturers are pulling their strings.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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You can actually blame our first assault weapons ban
May 24, 2023, 8:49 AM
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for that, very few people had AR style rifles before that. They weren't popular until govt attempted to ban them. And anyone who thinks the NRA still has any pull within the gun community is about 15 years out of touch.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: You can actually blame our first assault weapons ban
May 24, 2023, 9:10 AM
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I blame the manufacturers as much as the NRA. Fewer people were hunting and gun sales were in decline, so they came up with the strategy to scare people into thinking they needed more guns to protect themselves.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Politicians restricting gun rights have sold more firearms
May 24, 2023, 9:52 AM
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Than any NRA/manufacturer marketing campaign ever could. Watching the police stand down in the face of violent mobs during 2020 was also probably good for sales.
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Campus Hero [13465]
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Paw Master [17203]
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Thanks for your input grandpa
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May 24, 2023, 8:44 AM
[ in reply to Neither do I. I don’t use one to hunt deer or hawgs, can’t ] |
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Most shootings are also committed with handguns...VT shooter for instance, used a handgun. Do you own a semi automatic firearm? Congratulations, you own something functionally similar to an AR, just because it has a wood stock doesn't make it any less dangerous.
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Campus Hero [13465]
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Weak as puppy pee.***
May 24, 2023, 1:06 PM
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Ol’ Emily Post lost me at:
May 24, 2023, 7:52 AM
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“an AR-15-style pistol and an AKM-style rifle“
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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Uh, those are correct terms.***
May 24, 2023, 8:03 AM
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Uh, those are correct terms.***
May 24, 2023, 8:11 AM
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They may be fine for a journalist, but I know I’ve never heard anyone refer to either that way in real life. 9mm on an AR platform or an AK.
Why aren’t you anti 2A folks going after pistols?
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
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Those are commonly used.
May 24, 2023, 10:02 AM
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AR-style pistol (or AR9). Even Palmetto State refers to their firearms in this class as "AR pistols." Maybe you have issue with the nuance between "AR15-style-pistol" and "AR pistol," but that's petty, and well within a journalistic prerogative to use terminology that is understood by people without high familiarity with firearms.
Also, I have a WASR-10, which would be accurately and appropriately described as an AK-style rifle, since it is not an AK-47 proper, but a variant thereof.
And maybe you're new here, but you're not speaking to an anti-2A folk. Those would be the Trump supporters.
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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Goes back to what I've always said
May 24, 2023, 7:59 AM
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This man respects absolutely nothing in our Constitution.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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That’s silly
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May 24, 2023, 8:27 AM
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I guarantee he appreciates the 5th amendment
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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Sure, when it applies to him
May 24, 2023, 8:35 AM
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The Central Park Five probably disagree on how much he supports it.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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Sigh
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May 24, 2023, 8:36 AM
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Was making humor man, humor.
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Tiger Titan [48708]
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I know, I know
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May 24, 2023, 8:41 AM
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Coffee man, coffee. Things should be cranking more in half an hour.
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TigerNet Immortal [176607]
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Similarly
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May 24, 2023, 8:49 AM
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My jokes may get better as the day goes on. Not likely, but hope springs eternal.
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Orange Phenom [14755]
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Fortunately, I don't have to provide the Government or
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May 24, 2023, 9:02 AM
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anyone else with a stated "need" or a "reason" to own an a firearm. There is no "need" or "reason" requirement in the 2nd Amendment and therefore any requirement for such is BS.
Do we ask people to provide reasons and need statements in order to exercise their other rights contained in the Constitution? I mean - do we need to justify our rights to free speech and religion before we are allowed to exercise these rights? No - because they are explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution.
So anytime a smarmy reporter or idiot politician asks someone whey they "need" a firearm, the response should be "why do you need free speech and freedom of religion?"
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Fortunately, I don't have to provide the Government or
May 24, 2023, 9:41 AM
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Do we ask people to provide reasons and need statements in order to exercise their other rights contained in the Constitution? I mean - do we need to justify our rights to free speech and religion before we are allowed to exercise these rights? No - because they are explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution.
Actually yes. For instance, in order to be entitled to have a 1st Amendment religious exemption to vaccine mandates, you have to show that your belief is sincere. If you want to have a 1st Amendment gathering in a public place, you need to apply for a permit and explain your purpose. And so on.
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Orange Phenom [14755]
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You missed the point...
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May 24, 2023, 10:16 AM
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The question was about "need/reason" as to "why" one chooses to exercise an explicit right.
Showing a religious belief is sincere due to a vaccination requirement is not the same as justifying why you have the belief. In your vaccination example - you are just confirming you do have a belief. Same goes for free speech - you may have to apply for a permit to occupy a large gathering in a public space but that's for Government accommodation in order to preclude civic disruptions, spacial conflicts, and resourcing (i.e. traffic rerouted, police presence etc...). The Government is still not making you provide exact scripts of the speech so that they may approve/disapprove of your ideas/speech. If the Government does such a thing and then issues/denies a 1st Amendment gathering permit based solely on ideas/content then I imagine you and your fellow lawyers will have no problem bringing a lawsuit and will probably win.
The point of the matter is that you don't have to justify the normal exercise of your Constitutional rights. You owe no one an explanation as to why you need, want, or otherwise own a legal firearm. You don't have to provide a "need" or reason for why you worship a golden boot should you choose to do so.
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1999
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Well said!***
May 24, 2023, 1:02 PM
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Legend [6839]
TigerPulse: 89%
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
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May 24, 2023, 9:48 AM
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In the last summer as a Vice President, Biden told aides "If the Chinese are going to give Hunter this much money, I have to do something for them"
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
May 24, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Heisman Winner [81103]
TigerPulse: 100%
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He arguably paved the way for the current ATF nonsense
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May 24, 2023, 10:09 AM
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with his bumpstock ban. He certainly was not and is not2a friendly.
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Paw Warrior [4645]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: ‘I don’t know why anyone needs an AR-15’
May 24, 2023, 10:32 AM
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Emily Miller
@emilymiller
Award-winning investigative journalist and author in Washington, DC.
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Campus Hero [13551]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2010
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I love the "direct quotation" from anonymous sources***
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May 24, 2023, 2:47 PM
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Oculus Spirit [42590]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Yet still a better source than 99% of the conspiracies you
May 24, 2023, 3:24 PM
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otherwise believe in.
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