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Ring of Honor [23763]
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Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
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Apr 18, 2023, 2:56 PM
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There's been a lot of talk about our WRs not looking very good for the last few years so I decided to look at recruiting and development a little.
Here are the WR classes since 2015 along with some additional information.
2015
Deon Cain (5 star) - NFL
Ray Ray ( 5 Star) - NFL
Shadell Bell (3 star) - Reserve Clemson
2016
Donde Overton (4 star) - Clemson starter/ CFL
Cornell Powell (4 star) - NFL
TJ Chase (4 star) - Reserve / Transferred
2017
Tee Higgins (5 star) - NFL
Aman Rogers (4 star)- NFL
2018
Justyin Ross (5 star) - NFL
Derion Kendrick (5 star) - Switched positions, NFL
2019
Joe Ngata (5 star) - Starter, development issue, bust?
Frank Ladson (4 star) - Bust/ transferred
Brendson Spector (3 star) - Not good
2020
EJ Wiliams (4 star) - Bust/Development issue/transferred
Ajou Ajou (3 star) - Project/Development issue/transferred
2021
Will Taylor (3 star) - Project/hurt
Tony Stellato (4 star) - hurt / bust?
Beaux Collins (4 star) - development issue/bust?
Decan Collins (4 star) - development issue/transferr
2022
Cole Turner (3 star)
Antonio Williams (4 star)
Adam Randell (4 star)
2023
Tyler Brown (3 star)
Noble Johnson (4 star)
From 2015 to 2018 (3 year span / 10 WRs recruited), Clemson had five 5 star receivers, four 4 star receivers, and one three star receiver. One transferred and 8 out of 10 players who went on to play professionally. Zero “busts”.
From 2019 to 2022 (3 year span / 12 WRs recruited) Clemson has recruited one 5 star receiver, seven four star receivers, and four 3 star receivers. Three transfers and four to five “busts”. Possibly 3 future NFL players out of 12 recruits.
2023 has one 3 star and one four star (out of top 50 WR).
It’s easy to see that since 2019 WR recruiting has dropped. Since recruiting starts early we had Boyd, Watson, and Trevor as QBs during that span so this eliminates the “DJ factor” for recruiting. Development and/or miss evaluation are the issues.
Grisham has only been the WR coach since 2020 and this started in 2019 so it’s not fair to put this all on him although it’s not improved under his watch and is trending downward. Jeff Scott left in 2019.
The big takeaway is that we are taking less talented players and as a result the room is full but less talented then anytime since before 2015.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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Just to be clear...
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:00 PM
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we have had 2 receivers since 2015 with injury issues?
Will Taylor (3 star) - Project/hurt
Tony Stellato (4 star) - hurt / bust?
I want to be sure we are on the same page, and there was no typo, before I do a google search and post the results.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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And here comes Francis and Mr. Perfect on cue =)***
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:01 PM
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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No, I just but that there because it's hard to evaluate
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:03 PM
[ in reply to Just to be clear... ] |
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them. Otherwise, they are simply busts. Either way, doesn't matter.
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Top TigerNet [32834]
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Re: Just to be clear...
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:03 PM
[ in reply to Just to be clear... ] |
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sure glad mike williams and amari and justyn…..were never injured.
#blessed
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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My God, you guys find a narrative and stick with it.....
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:04 PM
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Do you guys all work in the Clemson Football marketing offices and come up with this garbage together?
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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their goalposts are made to be moved***
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:07 PM
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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Well Francis hardly ever posts without Mr.P
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:10 PM
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but it's always the same, ignore the main point and try and poke holes in tandem because Clemson Football is always dead solid perfect.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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b/c they can't argue the main point......
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to Well Francis hardly ever posts without Mr.P ] |
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fact is if you had a hypothetical draft of ALL Clemson WRs from 2015-2019 you wouldn't have a single WR on this current team taken in the top 10 or even top 13/14.............our talent has dropped significantly and it's easy to see if your orange glasses aren't glued to your face.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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So you agree that there have been 2 players since 2015...
Apr 18, 2023, 3:31 PM
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that have had injury issues and injuries are a developmental or evaluation issue?
And for the record, I don't have an issue with arguing for your position, but I do have an issue when posters make things up or get lazy with facts. If you aren't sure, don't post it, or even better, look it up.
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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I don't care about injury issues........
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:38 PM
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there are a few in my top 10 from 2015-2019 that had injury issues yet still had productive careers.
There are several backups in that era that would be standouts on this team.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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You may not care about them...
Apr 18, 2023, 3:49 PM
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but that doesn't change the fact that he listed them in the OP. And if he listed them he should be sure he was correct, especially since "development" and "evaluation" were his arguments for our drop off at WR. So the question, "are injuries a development/evaluation issue" is valid.
Of course, if the angle is to blame development and evaluation, then it is pretty convenient to omit injury info on multiple players.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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If you think a healthy Will Taylor is a future NFL player
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:57 PM
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then I got nothing to else to say to you.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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I never said that...
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Apr 18, 2023, 4:08 PM
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How many things are you willing to make up in this thread?
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Top TigerNet [32834]
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Re: I never said that...
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Apr 18, 2023, 4:22 PM
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that’s a loaded question.
let’s see.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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JC how disingenuous can you be..
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Apr 18, 2023, 6:26 PM
[ in reply to I never said that... ] |
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I know you're not that obtuse. I've read your posts.
You know darn well the point I am making.
All you do is try and poke little holes in any argument that doesn't paint a rosy picture of Clemson football. It's almost like you take it personally which makes me wonder.
Injuries have only really stopped us from seeing Stellato but the rest we know, and you know too.
If I had ever read a single post that gave a decent critical analysis then I'd take you seriously as an objective party but you're not. You know it and I know it.
Now tell you other little toodie, theclash, that he can take it somewhere else. It's embarrassing how far up your butt he is about now. I guess you're giving Mr. Perfect the night off but his sub ain't cutting it.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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You have missed the entire point...
Apr 19, 2023, 9:26 AM
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I'm not saying production at WR is not down. I'm not saying if we were healthy, we'd have similar WR numbers to the previous year of your choice. I'm not taking it personally, although I probably should since you are being disingenuous. And I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture of our coaches or staff. I do think it's important to be honest. So let me be clear...
Your stance is we are having "development and/or miss evaluation" issues. This indicates you have an issue with coaching, as coaches develop players and evaluate recruits. You went on to list issues with each WR during your given time span. Two of those WRs had "hurt" listed next to their names. "Hurt" is neither a developmental or miss evaluation issue, so it seems "hurt" is somewhat of a defense of the coaches in those two cases. The problem is there were more than two players who have dealt with being hurt. It's not fair to selectively attribute injury as a contributor of poor results for some, but ignore the injuries of others. If injury is listed as a contributing factor for some, then the reader is left to assume injury was not a contributing factor with the other players since it was not listed, so the issue with the other players must be a "development and/or miss evaluation" issues, which happens to be your stance. That is massaging the data. And that is what I have an issue with.
Tnetters are smart. Provide the information and let them decide if they agree with you or not. If you are going to open the door to "hurt" being a factor, be transparent and share all injuries.
That's it. All of the other noise you posted about me thinking a 3 star was the next NFL great, or you bringing other posters into a conversation I am having with you, is just that... noise.
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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injuries need to be looked at on a case by case basis...IMO
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Apr 18, 2023, 4:04 PM
[ in reply to You may not care about them... ] |
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I've seen some "injury issue" WRs play healthy and they're still not any good.............I've also seen some "injury issue" WRs that have never really played healthy so those are tougher to assess.
I've seen a healthy enough Spector to know he's not very talented.
I've seen flashes of a healthy B Collins to know he's not and never will be a Ross/Higgins/Williams
We haven't seen a healthy Taylor, but can draw a fairly confident conclusion that even when/if healthy and baseball being his possible future he's not going to impact our WR room like Hunter renfrow/grisham/humphries did.
I do think EJ Williams is a guy that could have been a VERY solid WR for us had he stayed healthy..........I'm also shocked that Ladson never panned out.
bottomline still remains...........we're not as talented at WR as we used to be and with transfers/NIL in the mix now I don't think it would hurt (when room becomes available) to get a talent or two from the portal.
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Ultimate Tiger [33704]
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Tiger Spirit [9385]
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Re: Just to be clear...
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Apr 18, 2023, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Just to be clear... ] |
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Pretty sure it’s Troy Stellato. 😂
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CU Medallion [18190]
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Frank Ladson couldn't catch 50% of the balls that hit him in
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Apr 18, 2023, 5:35 PM
[ in reply to Just to be clear... ] |
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the hands regardless of health...That guy was just a recruiting miss...period
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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CU Medallion [18190]
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Cling to your injury cop-out all you want, but that guy was
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Apr 18, 2023, 6:10 PM
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a bust...period
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Game Changer [1806]
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A Miss on a player regardless of whether injury, development,...
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Apr 18, 2023, 11:45 PM
[ in reply to Just to be clear... ] |
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transfers out, struck by lightning—is still a Miss
Again: {I can explain it to you}
{but I cannot understand it for you}
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Top TigerNet [29985]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:03 PM
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You left off Swinney our all important depth.
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Dynasty Maker [3150]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:08 PM
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The massive decline seems to start around Scott leaving and Grisham becoming the WR coach. I doubt that has anything to do with it though.
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All-Conference [441]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
Apr 18, 2023, 3:08 PM
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Dove so deep you didn’t even get all of 2023’s WRs or their names right.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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That's all you got?
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:11 PM
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I changed from Tyler to Taylor. Now if you care to make any real observation then feel free to do so free from the worry of a misspelling.
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National Champion [7913]
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BOWDEN ERA PLAYER COACHES ATTRACT BOWDEN ERA TALENT***
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:26 PM
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National Champion [7913]
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Jeff Scott was the anomaly
Apr 18, 2023, 3:30 PM
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and now we have many staff from that era.
I really hope Garret Riley corrects the ship.
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Hall of Famer [8334]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
Apr 18, 2023, 3:42 PM
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We knew when Jeff Scott left it was going to be hard to replace him and it shows. He had been around college FB all his life and I am sure grew up learning a lot about recruiting from his Dad who was also a good recruiter. Big shoes to fill and hopefully Grish has worked through whatever learning curve he had.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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2023 will probably be the worst WR recruiting
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Apr 18, 2023, 3:54 PM
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class in 10 years. The trend is not upwards but a good showing by Riley, Cade, and company can change things quickly. Let's hope!
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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Riley and Cade should mask WR deficiencies to an extent.....
Apr 18, 2023, 4:07 PM
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ESPECIALLY IN THE ACC..........but to return to 2015-2019 era Clemson offense levels WR talent must be addressed.
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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no flip flop here......I wasn't crazy about Elliott, but he
Apr 18, 2023, 4:56 PM
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had SUPERIOR talent to work with..............so it worked.
when you combine an "elliott offense" with lack luster skill on offense you get 2021-2022 Clemson offense
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TigerNet Icon [153197]
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Well...
Apr 18, 2023, 5:11 PM
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you didn't miss Elliott 5 months ago, today you long for the exact time period he was our OC, now you blame him for 21-22.
Nice flip-flop-flip?
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
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never did miss elliott.....I long for the WR talent of......
Apr 19, 2023, 2:44 PM
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the 2015-2019 time period. I saw what TE could do with non-SUPERIOR talent in 21-22........not good..........and neither was Streeter.
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All-TigerNet [5991]
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Ouch, the impact of Jeff Scott leaving
Apr 18, 2023, 3:59 PM
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and Grisham taking over is illustrated perfectly here. Grisham started his transition to WR Coach during the 2019 bowl game prep.
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Game Changer [1977]
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Re: Ouch, the impact of Jeff Scott leaving
Apr 18, 2023, 4:17 PM
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It's not really apparent. Do recall that the 2020 class was predominantly Jeff Scott recruits. The 2019/2020 classes being full of misses and bad takes was mostly Jeff.
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Hall of Famer [8213]
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Grisham was named WR coach after the 2020 Feb recruiting
Apr 18, 2023, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to Ouch, the impact of Jeff Scott leaving ] |
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cycle. His first WR season was 2020 football season but first recruiting class would have been 2021. I think the 2022 class is going to be quite good if they stay healthy.
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All-TigerNet [5991]
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Grisham started serving as interim WR coach in December 2019…
Apr 18, 2023, 4:30 PM
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“Served as Clemson’s interim wide receivers coach for portions of the team’s bowl preparation in 2019 after Co-Offensive Coordinator/Wide Receivers Coach Jeff Scott was announced as the new head coach at USF.”
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Top TigerNet [30679]
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yabbut .... Clemson has the best preferred walk-on WR corps
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Apr 18, 2023, 4:06 PM
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in the country.
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Paw Warrior [4809]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
Apr 18, 2023, 4:09 PM
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Ngata is going to be a better pro, he has all of the tools and I'm fairly certain he was frustrated with the state of the offense and especially the QB play. His biggest weakness was his mental game.
Also Ronan Hanafin is a 4 star coming in this summer.
Missing on the 5 star guys definitely hurt. Doesn't help that the last 4 years the passing game devolved into sideline throws only and then the last 2 years the qb play was as bad as I've ever seen.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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There are a lot of factors, true
Apr 18, 2023, 6:46 PM
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but you have to admit that pure talent as dropped off significantly too.
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Ring of Honor [22118]
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Our head coach literally use to be our wide receivers coach!
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Apr 18, 2023, 4:48 PM
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Starts at the top...must start landing 5 stars at this position again! He's getting paid way to much to let it slip like this.
Unfortunately, 2023 isn't looking good either.
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Tiger Titan [50750]
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Legend [6955]
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What do you want him to say?
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Apr 18, 2023, 8:16 PM
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He has to say that
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Tiger Titan [50750]
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Are you calling Dabo a liar?***
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Apr 18, 2023, 8:58 PM
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Legend [6955]
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No... he is an optimist, like most succesful people
Apr 20, 2023, 6:09 AM
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He believes what he says. A liar knows what he is saying is false.
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Legend [6955]
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really should try and pick up a portal WR
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Apr 18, 2023, 8:15 PM
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I would hope new OC is begging Dabo to go get someone now that spring ball is over
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National Champion [7893]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
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Apr 18, 2023, 8:35 PM
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Clemson really hit on a bunch of receivers until the last few years.
It's obvious they have not recruited as well. There seems to be no separation and the lack of winning the jump ball. The reason that the WR screens don't work is because corner backs play at the line of scrimmage. They don't fear getting beat deep. Williams and Collins are OK. Let's hope Turner and Randall can have a great year. Maybe one of the freshman will step up.
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CU Medallion [18459]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
Apr 19, 2023, 12:27 AM
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I wonder if there as some independent event, around 2020, that might have affected both the way we were able to interact with recruits and how we manage our roster? It’s more likely that Dabo never knew what he was doing and that we’ll suck forever. But I wonder anyway.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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Like other teams didn't deal with that?
Apr 19, 2023, 7:56 AM
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Com'on man, that's a lame excuse. Regardless, WR talent has dropped off significantly.
We might not agree on the why, but we know the talent isn't there like it was.
Message was edited by: PACIFIC BEACH TIGER®
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CU Medallion [18459]
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Re: Like other teams didn't deal with that?
Apr 19, 2023, 8:05 AM
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Yes. And according to 247 our lowly Clemson Tigers had the 5th best roster in all of college football last year. So, would you like to reframe your argument? I’ve lost track of whether this is the WR recruiting sucks or the all our recruiting sucks thread.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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Yeah, because you've exhausted yourself trying to defend
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Apr 19, 2023, 8:52 AM
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what you know is not true.
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CU Medallion [18459]
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Re: Yeah, because you've exhausted yourself trying to defend
Apr 19, 2023, 12:28 PM
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It’s not true that 247 has ranked us as one of the top 5 rosters in college football the last three seasons?
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All-TigerNet [6022]
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Re: Deep dive into WR recruiting since 2015
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Apr 19, 2023, 7:44 AM
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That's a pretty good analysis.
My takeaway is that Jeff Scott was our best WR recruiter, and WR coach. Both fell off the moment he left.
If even half the 4*/5* talent Grisham inherited panned out Clemson's WR room would have been fine. Poor player development and recruiting misses have further decimated the position.
We seem to have forgotten how to recruit, develop, and coach all at once. That's a bad combo.
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Ring of Honor [23763]
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I just got sick off all the excuses. I thought if I put..
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Apr 19, 2023, 7:53 AM
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this out there, it would put this controversy to bed, but of course it didn't.
The pumpers just came out in full force with the same "injury" narrative and saying the talent is there otherwise which is simply not true.
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National Champion [7999]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
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Re: I just got sick off all the excuses. I thought if I put..
Apr 19, 2023, 2:44 PM
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Pumpers are gonna pump.
If the WR performance/play is not better after this season, Dabo needs to do the same thing to Grisham that he did to Streeter and get some new eyes. Can’t blame bad offense on DJ or Streeter this time.
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Clemson Conqueror [11356]
TigerPulse: 100%
46
Posts: 12668
Joined: 1999
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Yuck. Thanks for the good (and semi-disheartening) work...***
1
Apr 19, 2023, 8:25 AM
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