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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:14 AM
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Whether you are part of a 50 person smash & grab, or a single person boldly walking out the door of WalMart with an arm full of stolen goods, it seems like the chances of someone there actually stopping you are almost zero, and the likelihood of cops getting there in time to stop you is extremely small, and being caught after the fact is even more unlikely, and even if you are caught, any "punishment" will be negligable, it seems the risk to reward heavily favors the criminal.
Are we at a point where criminals have figured this out, there is nothing more we can do, and we therefore just have to accept it as part of life?
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
Sep 27, 2023, 11:15 AM
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Yes, criminals have figured it out.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
Sep 27, 2023, 11:19 AM
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Should we just accept it? Or do we have a right to use necessary force to stop people from stealing?
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Who do you want using necessary force to stop
Sep 27, 2023, 11:24 AM
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shoplifting? Retail corporations certainly don't want employees doing it as the potential liability outweighs the cost of whatever is being stolen in almost every case. The heroic store employee stories from yesteryear stopping shoplifters is not a thing anymore in the litigious world we now live in. That, and any employee will tell you that a backpack full of groceries or toiletries isn't worth getting stabbed or shot over.
What is the "necessary force" you're referring to?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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So, do we just admit there is nothing we can do?***
Sep 27, 2023, 11:43 AM
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: So, do we just admit there is nothing we can do?***
Sep 27, 2023, 1:01 PM
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Move out of the areas where uncivilized people are likely to steal from you.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Orange Blooded [3230]
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Re: So, do we just admit there is nothing we can do?***
Sep 27, 2023, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to So, do we just admit there is nothing we can do?*** ] |
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I think we need more armed cops and strict sentences. That crime should have its on label with a strict harsh sentence.
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ... ] |
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Seems like the thugs hit the big box stores because they know nothing will be done. They tend to leave mom and pop alone because they know they could face a deterrent. We need to start treating criminals like criminals again.
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Ring of Honor [22177]
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Legit force by LE or licensed Security has to be part of process.
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ... ] |
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Unfortunately some thieves will have to get shot. And some thieves will shoot back. Enforcement comes with risks but lack of enforcement leads to a spiraling abyss of lawlessness that ultimately hurts the community.
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Legit force by LE or licensed Security has to be part of process.
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Sep 27, 2023, 11:41 AM
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Its very sad that it has to come to this but I agree. Some of the criminals need to be shot. When they start getting killed this will slow down. The alternative is continue to do nothing as thugs grow more bold, entitled , and ruthless.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: Legit force by LE or licensed Security has to be part of process.
Sep 27, 2023, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to Legit force by LE or licensed Security has to be part of process. ] |
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I don't disagree in principle, but when the shooting starts, more than just the thieves will inevitably be shot. I'd like not to be gunned down by a stray bullet on my monthly trip to Lowes.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
Sep 27, 2023, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ... ] |
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Should we just accept it? Of course not.
> Or do we have a right to use necessary force to stop people from stealing?
Not if this means requiring normal employees to put themselves in harms way. If security is hired or something then sure.
However, I don't think this will be solved at the business level, the government has to do something because the risks are just too great for the business. It's much cheaper to have insurance cover theft/damage than to payout a lawsuit when one of your employees either gets hurt/killed or does so to a thief.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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I have never, ever suggested that employees be required
Sep 27, 2023, 1:46 PM
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to intervene, unless they are security personnel hired and trained for that purpose.We simply should not penalize the heroes who choose to intervene of their own free will.
It's much cheaper to have insurance cover theft/damage than to payout a lawsuit when one of your employees either gets hurt/killed or does so to a thief.
That should be a huge red flag to everybody. When the courts make allowing criminal behavior easier, cheaper, and more acceptable than preventing it, we are fools if we don't recognize the absurdity and the consequenses, and do something about it.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: I have never, ever suggested that employees be required
Sep 27, 2023, 2:49 PM
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> We simply should not penalize the heroes who choose to intervene of their own free will.
Eh... I think that's a much blurrier line. Is this guy a hero that should be protected? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/09/26/oreillys-auto-parts-employee-charged-with-alleged-shoplifters-death/70968366007/
> That should be a huge red flag to everybody. When the courts make allowing criminal behavior easier, cheaper, and more acceptable than preventing it, we are fools if we don't recognize the absurdity and the consequenses, and do something about it.
I agree, I just don't think there is a simple solution here that people seem to be implying. Sure, we could just stock the stores with gun toting security guards, but then we introduce a higher likelihood of a gun fight and innocent bystanders dying vs a store losing revenue to theft.
What precisely do you suggest as a solution?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Use whatever force is reasonable and necessary to stop
Sep 27, 2023, 5:40 PM
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them. It's not hard or complicated at all.
We know for a fact that smash and grab/shoplifting at current levels is not sustainable; let's get that out of the way. So, scratching our heads and doing nothing is not an answer.
Will using more force to stop them result in more people getting hurt? Almost certainly, at least in the short run, until it starts having the desired effect and the risk/reward no longer favors the crooks. We have already established that doing nothing is not an option, and this is the obvious, common sense solution. The likelihood that some good people may be hurt is not an acceptable reason for not preventing anarchy and the deterioration of society, which means a lot more violence and destruction, whic is exactly what will happen if we don't act.
Note: Using reasonable, required force does not mean the wild wild west whereby we tolerate, much less encourage people shooting little kids for stealing a pack of gum (as had been suggested earlier). While I'm sure some of that would happen, and would be played up to the max by media and politicians who don't want to be mean to the criminals, we are capable as a society of limiting and not tolerating that as well, and it cannot be used as an excuse to allow chaos and anarchy.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: Use whatever force is reasonable and necessary to stop
Sep 27, 2023, 8:20 PM
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Fair enough.
So what are we talking here, policy wise. How is the force implemented.
Do we incentivize businesses to up their security?
More police presence?
What would it look like.
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Oculus Spirit [42309]
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This would be a good time to become a loss prevention
Sep 27, 2023, 11:22 AM
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consultant/installer.
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Ring of Honor [22177]
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Arrest, Prosecute and Sentence same as it ever was.***
Sep 27, 2023, 11:27 AM
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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So, accept the current state where criminals have figured
Sep 27, 2023, 11:42 AM
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out they can commit these crimes with relative impunity?
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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So what? My point stands, risk vs. reward still favors
Sep 27, 2023, 11:59 AM
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the criminals. A few out of many who participated were caught and charged. Plus, they haven't been convicted and locked up yet. Whatever deterrent it may be, it's obviously not enough. From the article:
Michelin says that she's among the many within her industry calling for changes to Proposition 47, the ballot measure approved by 60% of state voters in 2014, which reduced the severity of various offenses, including theft and drug possession, from felonies to misdemeanors.
"Instead what we see is more and more, I think zero bail, that is not gonna help the situation," Michelin said. "We are pandering, in my opinion, to people who are committing crimes at the expense of law-abiding citizens."
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Oculus Spirit [42309]
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You're not going to prosecute your way out of this.
Sep 27, 2023, 12:06 PM
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Even if you increased the penalty for theft (which comes with other externalities), your point that a few out of the many dilutes the impact to the point of being almost ineffectual.
The answer is a combination of better loss prevention (easy) and social changes (much, much harder) that eventually cause this fad to burn out.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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What kind of easy loss prevention?
Sep 27, 2023, 12:16 PM
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I'm sure major retailers who are closing down store because of it would like to know.
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Oculus Spirit [42309]
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I'm not a loss prevention expert.
Sep 27, 2023, 12:59 PM
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But loss prevention steps are, yes, an easy solution compared to what else is necessary.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Good! Some people are prosecuted and put away. What's
Sep 27, 2023, 1:26 PM
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your point?
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Re: Good! Some people are prosecuted and put away. What's
Sep 27, 2023, 1:56 PM
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You are the one who used the word "impunity". Is that what you call "no consequences"?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Not in some specific cases, of course. Overall, pretty much,
Sep 27, 2023, 2:22 PM
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without question.
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Re: Not in some specific cases, of course. Overall, pretty much,
Sep 27, 2023, 5:02 PM
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I'm just LOLing at how you have now flipped the switch and are once again concerned about "law and order". Actually, it's pretty funny how you are "concerned" about "blue collar" crime while t the same time being outraged at the investigation and prosecution of "white collar" crime.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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WTH are you talking about?***
Sep 27, 2023, 5:40 PM
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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What's the alternative?
Sep 27, 2023, 2:52 PM
[ in reply to So, accept the current state where criminals have figured ] |
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It's already been addressed: Big companies aren't going to risk lawsuits over their goods their insured for because an employee wants to be a hero. I gave the Best Buy example.
Also, how much are you going to pay Wal-Mart employees to give enough of a #### to stop someone?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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I have never, ever suggested that any employees be required
Sep 27, 2023, 5:09 PM
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to intervene, unless they were hired and trained for that purpose.
What is totally fokked up is a judicial system that makes it easier for criminals to commit crimes and harder for law-abiding citizens to prevent them. Not only is that not normal, it's absurd and unacceptable. Good people must be allowed to stop bad people, using whatever means are required, without fear of the system punishing them.
If I'm in a store and I see somebody shoplifting, I shouldn't have to be afraid to walk up and say "Hey. I see what you're doing. You need to stop". Then, if I so choose, I (or any store emplyee) should legally be able to stop the criminal using reasonable, required force. I should not be punished for for that. Fokk a bunch of corporate BS and greedy crooked lawyers; we should not allow them to dictate these situations either.
To simply say "we can't stop them, we just have to accept it" is totally false, and is not an acceptable answer. And we will never appease or socially engineer our way out of it. We can stop most of it with force, however, and should not apologize for doing so. The fact that we are soooooo afraid to do so now is exactly why we are seeing a surge in this behavior. The bad guys know it and are exploiting our fear.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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I know
Sep 28, 2023, 8:38 AM
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But I'm rolling with Obed's proposal, which is where this thread has headed and you've agreed with him.
What is totally fokked up is a judicial system that makes it easier for criminals to commit crimes and harder for law-abiding citizens to prevent them. Not only is that not normal, it's absurd and unacceptable. Good people must be allowed to stop bad people, using whatever means are required, without fear of the system punishing them.
I agree, but let's examine how to fix that instead of turning toward vigilante justice--which is proven to not be effective.
If I'm in a store and I see somebody shoplifting, I shouldn't have to be afraid to walk up and say "Hey. I see what you're doing. You need to stop". Then, if I so choose, I (or any store emplyee) should legally be able to stop the criminal using reasonable, required force. I should not be punished for for that. Fokk a bunch of corporate BS and greedy crooked lawyers; we should not allow them to dictate these situations either.
Okay, great, but how far are you willing to take it? What if said shoplifter is much bigger and stronger? What if he has buddies? What if the store employee doesn't seem to care?
To simply say "we can't stop them, we just have to accept it" is totally false, and is not an acceptable answer. And we will never appease or socially engineer our way out of it. We can stop most of it with force, however, and should not apologize for doing so. The fact that we are soooooo afraid to do so now is exactly why we are seeing a surge in this behavior. The bad guys know it and are exploiting our fear.
Who here is making that argument? People opposed Obed's idea and y'all have twisted our words into saying we should just let shoplifting happen. Y'all are false dichotomying the #### out of this argument.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Unfortunately, there have been too many successful lawsuits
Sep 27, 2023, 11:34 AM
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Regarding employees at these stores using force against shoplifters. These mega chains have policies against using force so they don't get sued, and I'm sure the criminals know it. They're also insured, so I'm sure they'd rather pass the video footage along to the police.
Same way bank employees are told to not be heroes and just comply.
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Tiger Titan [50414]
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I can see lawsuits by customers injured in the crossfire...
Sep 27, 2023, 12:03 PM
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but I don't think I've ever met a lawyer who would take a case for a shoplifter that got hurt when they got caught. I guess maybe if someone is detained and tied and you beat their ### maybe.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Spartanburg Best Buy, 1990s
Sep 27, 2023, 12:10 PM
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Shoplifter died after hitting the outside barricade while pursued. He was tackled and died of a heart attack. Family of the shoplifter took Best Buy to the cleaners. I'm pretty sure that's not the only one.
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Top TigerNet [30602]
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Best deterrent is to close your store and move away.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:00 PM
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San Fran & Oakland have done this successfully.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Oculus Spirit [43144]
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Nothing that they are willing to do. Yuge difference.***
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:46 PM
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Yep.***
Sep 27, 2023, 12:54 PM
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Best deterrent is to close your store and move away.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to Best deterrent is to close your store and move away. ] |
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Having problems in NYC, Seattle, Portland, San Fran, and Oakland. Hey I have an idea, defund the police!!!! Idiots.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Like I said last time we discussed it, if they want
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:29 PM
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something done, they need to give blanket legal immunity to someone accused of inflicting harm upon someone else who is engaged in the commission of a property crime.
Might seem cruel and could be
Might seem disproportionate and could be
Might seem like some unfortunate incidents could arise, and they could,
but when the social contract that's existed for thousands of years, that you generally don't steal from another person, is going out the window, desperate measures may be called for to bring it back. Once basic stealing becomes an acceptable part of the social contract, we are efffffed.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Ed Zachary. It can't be tolerated. Whatever force is needed
Sep 27, 2023, 12:33 PM
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to stop it must be allowed.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Are you comfortable giving police officers
Sep 27, 2023, 12:34 PM
[ in reply to Like I said last time we discussed it, if they want ] |
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blanket legal immunity for harm caused to someone committing a property crime? I'm guessing this is tongue-in-cheek since non-LEO are even less qualified to administer street justice.
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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Bro you are a bonafide George Floyd apologist
Sep 27, 2023, 12:36 PM
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you are unreal.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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George Floyd was a hero!
Sep 27, 2023, 12:37 PM
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LOL!
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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What are you even talking about?
Sep 27, 2023, 12:39 PM
[ in reply to Bro you are a bonafide George Floyd apologist ] |
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Here, this is as simple as it gets: "I think that guy is stealing something from this grocery store, I'm going to go beat the shit out of him in the parking lot. Oh, man, I killed him! Would you look at that--he wasn't even stealing anything! Well, good thing I have blanket immunity!"
LEO are absolutely not judges, juries, and executioners. Normal citizens and store employees, even less so. You're insane if you think store employees should be allowed to shoot somebody in the back for stealing a Snickers.
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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Law Enforcement officers enforce the law. Its that simple.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:43 PM
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Prosecutors then undercut the officers and decide that your actions are overreaching. Then you get a sense of complacency when that mom that left her kid at 2am home alone to get drunk as #### gets the kid back in the morning.
Or the guy who stole 2 things of laundry detergent is just, “black man down on his luck and needs to clean his clothes”. Bill ####### ####. He is going to steal and resell at a profit to feed his crack habit or hooker habit. #### him.
Your apologist nature is the problem.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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This is absolutely not about being an apologist.
Sep 27, 2023, 12:50 PM
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I hate a thief. But you can't seriously argue that non-LEO citizens can be deputized to use any kind of force, including deadly, if they perceive some sort of property crime being committed. Why stop there? Why not any other kind of crime? Why have police at all if street justice is so readily available and legal?
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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This is why I need to stay off the politics bored
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:54 PM
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Cause I know we would be besties in real life but our politics don’t align and that is ok.
I am bowing out.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Well that's not what anyone said.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to What are you even talking about? ] |
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You get it wrong, sure, you're on the hook. The person had better be clearly stealing something.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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OK, you're certain somebody is stealing something.
Sep 27, 2023, 12:46 PM
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You off him in the parking lot--gun, knife, bare hands, whatever. This should be legal and acceptable?
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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If they were stealing something, sure.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:50 PM
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I'm not weighing a life against an object. I'm weighing a life against the basic tenet of civilized society that what's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours. If that goes out the window, we're basically in anarchy, so if Joe dies from hitting his head on the ground after getting punched while stealing $200 in clothes from a store, that sucks for Joe, but the number of people willing to behave like Joe will rapidly decrease.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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So law enforcement and the judicial system out the window
Sep 27, 2023, 12:55 PM
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in lieu of making examples out of people. Why not extend this to other areas besides shoplifting?
What about a pack of gum? Am I still allowed to pummel somebody within an inch of their life? What if it's an 11 year old? Gotta make an example out of him for other 11 year olds?
I still can't believe that this is a serious conversation. It's not, is it?
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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That's what's so funny here. You're acting like this is
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:00 PM
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some concept that's existed since the inception of the country. It's not. Only in the past 20-30 years has it become hazardous to your freedom and your wallet to be a basic Good Samaritan. Before that, it was appreciated and applauded. If you tackled a guy in the parking lot stealing anything and held them till the cops got there, the store, the police, and your fellow citizens appreciated your effort. It was common freaking sense.
Somehow along the way we have made the Good Samaritan the person in that scenario the one who is liable and is considered to be more problematic than the thief. F that.
You're hyperbolizing it of course and acting like it's all shooting people over gum and such, but we both know those aren't the 99th percentile scenarios we are talking about.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Well, no.
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:07 PM
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I clearly stated earlier in this thread that this is a fairly new development in our now overly-litigious society.
https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/who-do-you-want-using-necessary-force-to-stop-33473964
HOWEVER...the concept of "blanket immunity" hasn't ever existed in this country, nor will it, nor should it. That's insane. "You won't be held accountable for your actions in these specific circumstances."
And it's certainly not hyperbole if even one out of a hundred of those encounters ends in homicide/death at the hands of a citizen. You guys are way out in left field on this one.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Soooooooo, you're making my case for me.
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:10 PM
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If the legal liability goes away for that store if an employee prevents a theft, then I'm pretty sure you will have private security guards doing what is needed to prevent theft and the occasional Good Samaritan jumping in as well.
If the situation is that the law is written in such a way that it costs you more to prevent a theft than to allow it, that law needs to go.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Spot on - that's when it should be obvious to all that
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:25 PM
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something is bad wrong, and instead of accepting it as normal, or just the way it is, we should be screaming from the rooftops at the absurdity of it.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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These companies can already hire private security guards.
Sep 27, 2023, 3:09 PM
[ in reply to Soooooooo, you're making my case for me. ] |
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They don't. Your idea does not magically create them.
EDIT: If the situation is that the law is written in such a way that it costs you more to prevent a theft than to allow it, that law needs to go.
Gonna cost a lot more to pay the armed guards so I guess your idea won't work.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Nice try.
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:50 PM
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The cost of security guards pales to what they’re losing to theft.
The cost of lawsuits from getting sued by someone getting injured or killed while being apprehended, plus the cost of insurance without having an explicit “no apprehend” policy in said litigious environment is what can exceed the cost of theft. That’s pretty clearly what I meant in the post you just replied to.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Can't speak for Obed, but one reason this is suddenly
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to So law enforcement and the judicial system out the window ] |
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an epidemic is because the criminals are counting on people with attitudes like yours to enable them.
I am 100% serious about doing what is necessary to stop crime and avoid anarchy and chaos. I'm all for law enforcement and the judicial system - 100% - but I'm not for those intitutions being hamstrung and prevented from protecting law abiding citizens, while enabling criminals and allowing chaos and lawlessness.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Y'all's argument is devoid of logic
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Sep 27, 2023, 3:08 PM
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Like, complete devoid of it.
First, to create this absurd "blanket immunity" idea, it would have to be a FEDERAL law to make it work. You think every state and municipality is getting on board this? After it somehow miraculously passes Congress and gets signed by a president, you'll deal with all the legal challenges to it in the courts.
And what's that immunity going to be? Criminal AND civil? Because if not both, the civil suits over this silliness will cost the corporation far more than any shoplifting.
Next, how much are you paying employees at Wal-Mart and such to now be Rent A Cops? Are they getting substantial raises? Or are you hiring new security guards?
Do you honestly think Wal-Mart doesn't have the money right now to hire armed security guards at all their stores? Do you know WHY they don't do that?
And we haven't even gotten into the discussion of some ex-cop or wannabe tough guy who THINKS he saw someone pocket a bag of M&Ms and now goes full nuts on a kid because he faces no consequences.
Can y'all just take 10 minutes to think about this? Just 10.
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Oculus Spirit [41148]
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why doesn't wal mart hire guards?***
Sep 27, 2023, 10:20 PM
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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I get the impression that he thinks Wal-Mart and others
Sep 27, 2023, 10:35 PM
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Have done a cost-benefit analysis and figured the direct cost of security is more than the cost of inventory shrinkage. Not true of course, but seems to be his premise.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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And how do you know it's not true?
Sep 28, 2023, 8:39 AM
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They're legally allowed to hire the guards and stop shoplifters. You think Wal-Mart wants to hire full time guards when they've trimmed every store down to minimal staff already?
Remember how they used to have someone check your receipt at the door?
Yeah.
But please, show me the data you have that I don't.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Wait, you think they stopped paying the receipt
Sep 28, 2023, 8:50 AM
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Checker and got rid of that role because their $12/hour wage was more than they were losing each day to theft? Is that really what you think?
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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No
Sep 28, 2023, 9:14 AM
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I think they just cut them because they are maximizing profits. But that leads me to believe they aren't that concerned with the losses vs. the rest of the money they're making.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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^This is the whole point. Framing it as a life vs. an object
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to If they were stealing something, sure. ] |
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is inaccurate and a weak attempt to distract from the real problem.
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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Re: OK, you're certain somebody is stealing something.
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to OK, you're certain somebody is stealing something. ] |
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Why do you go directly to lethal force? That is problem number one.
No good cop pulls their gun routinely.
You can tackle, detain, punch, kick. If they die they die. Not the problem of the person trying hold tight until officers arrive.
You know why it takes so long for officers to arrive? Cause you typically have 3-4 officers per 65k residents. That is insanity to the max.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Am I taking crazy pills?
Sep 27, 2023, 12:58 PM
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"If they die they die."
GTFO with that. This has to be the most shortsighted nonsense I've ever seen from you and Obed.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Shortsighted is not seeing the long term ramifications to
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:02 PM
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society at large from allowing thieves to have free reign over citizens. It's over at that point. All of it.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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You know what is a far, far bigger threat to the well-being
Sep 27, 2023, 1:11 PM
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of me and my loved ones than shoplifters? Red light runners. I see no reason I shouldn't be allowed to chase them down, run them off the road, and beat the everloving shit out of them so that they don't endanger the lives other innocent, law-abiding drivers.
Agree or disagree?
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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As far as I know, cops generally haven't started
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:16 PM
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shrugging their shoulders at blatant red light runners the way they have against those committing property crimes. If they do, let's talk. As for now the cops who have pulled me for speeding in recent years have seemed more serious about their job duties than the ones who showed up (if they showed up) when I had a car broken into.
Also, sort of a weird analogy since we are talking about property rights vs feeling scared by traffic violations.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Look, here's the bottom line......
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:23 PM
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I know what I'm saying sounds over the top, and maybe it is, but a society that makes the honest people powerless to protect property from dishonest people is a society that's descending into anarchy, because the dishonest people will multiply when they see how lucrative and consequence-free the behavior is, and a portion of the remaining honest people will take matters into their own hands and do some pretty bad things out of sheer frustration and helplessness.
So if you dislike my idea, I'm open to your ideas, but continuing to criminalize/penalize the good people for the dishonest people's behavior isn't sustainable.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: Look, here's the bottom line......
Sep 27, 2023, 3:14 PM
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Except your idea doesn't:
-Bring more security to businesses. They're private businesses that could already do this. Corporations are not going to suddenly start packing their stores nationwide with armed guards.
-Doesn't solve the problem on a national scale. Only a very, very local one.
-Stop thieves from being thieves.
What it does is allow some Rent-A-Cop to shoot someone he THINKS shoplifted without any fear of repercussion. This won't attract "Good Samaritans" to the job. It will attract people who think they can finally get away with legalized violence.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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If you think they could already do this, you dont
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:29 PM
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Understand the extent of the problem.
Most major stores used to have loss prevention officers in their stores. They didn’t stop using them because they decided they didn’t want them or that losses were NBD. If they use them now, and the person actually does their job, they face massive lawsuit losses AND are pretty much uninsurable.
Those issues are what need to be addressed.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Exactly. It's not that complicated.
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:49 PM
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We should all recognize that a legal/judicial system which makes it easier for criminal to commit crimes and more difficult for good citizens to stop them, is assbackward and absurd, and we can't continue to turn a blind eye as if that's normal and unavoidable.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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I'm not sure you understand the situation at all
Sep 28, 2023, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to If you think they could already do this, you dont ] |
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Most states have shopkeeper's privilege laws, and they have the right to detain suspected shoplifters. They can still hire loss prevention officers to do this. They just can't use violent force--which is what you want with no repercussions--and that's a good thing that they can't.
Wal-Mart and such doesn't employ all these people for the same reason they have two cashiers running the registers. They're maximizing profits and can chalk up the loss with insurance.
So no, it's not over risk of lawsuits. Really, your beef is with the stores themselves not taking the steps to prevent this.
Your "solution" will only lead to more lawsuits and a dead innocent person here and there, and YES, you're better than this.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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A) thats just not correct
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Sep 28, 2023, 8:36 AM
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Stores are not closing major metros, foregoing ANY profits, because insurance is cheaper than losses. They close because they can’t enforce the protection of their property without facing legal costs (and insurance costs if not an inability to get insurance) that exceeds any profits they make.
You’re once again making my case by mentioning shopkeepers privilege. No one is going to use that, for the most part, because they will generally face legal action for false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress, defamation, negligence, assault, you name it. Look up “shopkeepers privilege” in any state and you’ll get plenty of ads for lawyers seeking clients who had it used against them. I’m seeking to get back to a place where shopkeepers privilege could actually be used without automatically having to factor in legal fees to defend yourself against the claims that follow, because retail establishments would be happy to avail themselves of it if so.
B) stop making every discussion personal with crap like “you’re better than this”. Good Lord. It’s a discussion and no one is good or bad for kicking around ideas to stop a problem. I already said my solution might be over the top, but so is the problem, so if nothing else let’s get a little discussion started.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: A) thats just not correct
Sep 28, 2023, 9:10 AM
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A. In certain locations. And that's part of the cost analysis.
No one is going to use that, for the most part, because they will generally face legal action for false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress, defamation, negligence, assault, you name it.
But you're advocating LEGALIZING those things, and that's absurd. I'm sorry. I cited a specific case in my hometown where a guy died and a store got sued. Was it rather bull ######? Yeah, but the employee used some stupid force over it and it ended in a death.
B. Sorry if that came across too personal, but it's disappointing and frustrating to see someone like you who consistently posts some really #### good stuff--even when I don't always agree with it--post something so outlandish. I expect those ideas out of an RTD, a Keowee, a Crash, etc. Now we've got a mega thread that has devolved into ridiculousness over the St. Louis couple and George Floyd and such (and I know, I'm guilty of helping it get there). I look to people like you to have sound ideas to solve problems like this, not call for "blanket immunity" for some ex-cop to finally satisfy his wet dream of killing a small time criminal.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Here's the cost analysis they are facing:
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Sep 28, 2023, 9:46 AM
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If they detain a customer, even if they really are stealing something, their best case scenario will usually see them paying a few thousand dollars to an attorney to have a claim resulting from the detainment tossed out. Their worst case sees the claimant winning and them on the hook for 5, if not 6, figure settlements......over someone who was likely stealing hundreds of dollars of merchandise.
So because the legal system has tied their hands into a scenario where defending themselves costs more, per instance of theft, than the theft itself they have no logical choice but to let it go. The insurance you reference isn't a blank check to unlimited shrinkage reimbursement. The insurer is there to make money too, and sooner than later, the cost of said insurance will exceed the cost of the merchandise being stolen.
So the real cost analysis, ultimately, is are there more moral people shopping at our store than immoral people? i.e. Do the profits off goods being properly paid for exceed losses off items being stolen? It's not a fait accompli that the thieves just overrun the store unless the store's hands are tied in their ability to prevent the losses. Wal-Mart, Target, CVS, etc aren't known for willingly leaving dollars on the table, and they would gladly employ real security to prevent the theft (at an extremely positive ROI against the security cost) if there weren't other extraneous variables (see above) making it cost exponentially more to employ said security measures.
As for B). I'm not saying kill people over stolen snickers bars, and as I've tried to clarify, some items here or some items there or a mega corp losing a little money is not the crux of my concern. What is my concern, is that in our reptilian brain, second only to the survival instinct perhaps is the instinct to protect what is ours. This is hard wired beyond even the instinctive morality to not kill someone. Property rights are a cornerstone of any serious society, and people who willingly violate that with total apathy are flat out sociopaths. If, as a society, we paint ourselves into the corner that their behavior is a reasonable loss that we just have to accept, our society comes to a gradual halt.
So when I say blanket immunity, it might be overly broad---I don't mean start firing on someone running away with a pack of juicy fruit. There would have to be an escalation path starting with verbal requests to give items back, then physical detainment, and then if the suspect fights back, what happens, happens. I think of it like a "don't want no shid don't start no shid" law as it comes to this topic. Just like you and I think the Jan 6th girl should have expected the possibility of what happened to her, I want someone willingly stealing something to also expect a litany of potential negative consequences for their actions. They expect none at the moment, which is only going to increase their numbers. As I also mentioned, if you're the security guard or Good Samaritan in one of these cases, and you get it wrong, good luck, because your actions are on you at that point.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Sure, and it doesn't mean citizens going on a killing spree,
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:21 PM
[ in reply to Shortsighted is not seeing the long term ramifications to ] |
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automatically shooting anybody they percieve as "bad". Of course, some of that will happen, and be played up by leftist media to advance their twisted agenda, but in reality, sadly, it's worth it when the alternative is society unraveling at the seams.
The expectation should be something like this, with appropriate escalation and responses.
1. Person is stealing something in you store. You tell them to stop. If they do, mission accomplished. If not
2. You or somebody grabs them and tries to stop them. If that doesn't work, and they fight you, you have been assaulted by a criminal who is committing a crime. If they don't drop the goods and flee at that point ...
3. You have the right to use increasing force as necessary to stop the criminal which equates to protecting yourself and your property.
I can tell you now, this won't stop overnight, even if these steps are followed. It will get uglier before it eventually gets better; but it's worth it. We will never appease our wayout of it, or socially engineer our way out of it. We are way past that. Legal, sensible law enforcement and prosecution, combined with supporting citizens and corporate entities to protect themselves and their livlelyhoods and standing against chaos and anarchy is the only way. QAs it is, it's as if we are scared to death to do the right thing, and stand up to the criminals.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Umm...
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Sep 27, 2023, 3:19 PM
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Of course, some of that will happen, and be played up by leftist media to advance their twisted agenda, but in reality, sadly, it's worth it when the alternative is society unraveling at the seams.
If "some" of that happens, that's the problem with the entire idea. Full stop. The discussion is over then.
I'm not opposed to people using firearms to prevent crime in their business, but "blanket immunity" in all cases is absurd. Each case should be judged on its merit by law enforcement.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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BS. That's NOT full-stop, end of discussion.
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:45 PM
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That kind of thinking is why we are in this shape now. Bad guys know good people are scared that fighting back might be too painful.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Yes, it is.
Sep 28, 2023, 8:19 AM
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When your solution is to employ a tactic that has the potential to seriously harm or kill a non-violent misdemeanor offender or possibly an innocent person mistaken for a criminal, the discussion is over.
I'm open to better ideas. Obed's suggestion is not a good idea.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Random, isolated "Non-violent misdemeanors" is not what we
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Sep 28, 2023, 9:39 AM
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are dealing with here. It's organized criminality on a massive scale specifically designed to take advantage of a helpless mindset, and that not only imposes a tremendous cost on all citizens, if not reigned in quickly, will result in chaos and an unacceptable violation of the freedoms of all Americans.
I see that as a very, very serious problem that demands decisive action and some uncomfortable decisions to preserve law and order, and the freedoms that are our right as Americans and human beings.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: Random, isolated "Non-violent misdemeanors" is not what we
Sep 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
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Deweather had a good article that I think answers this, so I'm going to punt to him.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: OK, you're certain somebody is stealing something.
Sep 27, 2023, 3:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: OK, you're certain somebody is stealing something. ] |
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You can tackle, detain, punch, kick. If they die they die. Not the problem of the person trying hold tight until officers arrive.
Recalling when y'all whined and cried like babies about Ashli Babbitt.
Using your argument, every one of the Capitol rioters should have been gunned down.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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I said she got something she should
Sep 27, 2023, 3:09 PM
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Have anticipated given what she was engaged in.
Next point?
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Manac #### sure doesn't feel that way
Sep 27, 2023, 3:11 PM
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That's why I replied to him.
And this statement:
You can tackle, detain, punch, kick. If they die they die. Not the problem of the person trying hold tight until officers arrive.
Is the pinnacle of stupid and should not come out of any freedom-loving American's mouth.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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He was a POS who contributed directly to his own death
Sep 27, 2023, 5:50 PM
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with his criminal behavior.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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That's crap, and that doesn't mean he deserved to die
Sep 28, 2023, 8:21 AM
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The cops could have used several other tactics to restrain him that wouldn't have resulted in his death. And a jury agreed.
I know y'all want some insane society where cops are allowed to be the judge, jury, and executioner, but you're not getting it. Sorry.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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It's 100% true, and I did not say he deserved to die; he didn't.
Sep 28, 2023, 10:18 AM
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George Floyd had a long, violent, criminal history. He was high as fok when he was killed, and he was resisting arrest. He was a POS who contributed to his death with his choices and behaivors. Those are facts.
Having said that, police definitely mishandled the situation, which resulted in his death. He should not have died as a result of that incident. The police should have been punished.
All of that can be, and is true. George Floyd is not a hero. He was not killed because of racist cops out to get black people. The narrative that he is somehow just another black man who was a victim of racist cops who ride around looking for black people to harass, abuse, and kill is total BS.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Are you comfortable giving police officers
Sep 27, 2023, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to Are you comfortable giving police officers ] |
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In your world maybe we could issue cards and give reward points for each dollar amount they steal. The points could then be redeemed for free purchases in an attempt reduce the need to steal.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Lotta stupid in this thread
Sep 27, 2023, 3:01 PM
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"Oh, you don't support Obed's outlandish idea that we let employees start having blanket immunity to attack and kill shoplifters?! Well, then you support complete lawlessness!"
What a maroon.
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Ring of Honor [21656]
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Re: Are you comfortable giving police officers
Sep 27, 2023, 12:41 PM
[ in reply to Are you comfortable giving police officers ] |
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That isn't going to happen.
The Catch-22 we're looking at is pretty obvious. We can't enforce. The trust gap between law enforcement and the communities they police has gotten so pronounced, whenever they use force - even justified force - the community will riot. Law enforcement brought a lot of that on itself. Our cultural atomization - which the Internet has unintentionally accelerated and maybe even caused - pushed it the rest of the way.
On the other hand, if you can't or won't enforce, crime gets out of control.
See my post above for where I think this leads.
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: Are you comfortable giving police officers
Sep 27, 2023, 12:45 PM
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Some communities would riot. Not all. Only the ones poisoned by the “po po bad” bug would take issue with civilized life bring ensured.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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LOL, no
Sep 27, 2023, 2:57 PM
[ in reply to Like I said last time we discussed it, if they want ] |
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19B pretty much already shredded this, but c'mon.
...they need to give blanket legal immunity to someone accused of inflicting harm upon someone else who is engaged in the commission of a property crime.
Blanket legal immunity to someone who uses physical violence against a shoplifter? Even lethal?
You don't see where this will go wrong?
And as I've already asked, in a world where businesses can't find good help nowadays, who are you paying and how much to put their lives on the line for that?
EDIT: You and Manac and et al are wanting these draconian measures without focusing on the real problem. Prices are too ####### high and the economy isn't good and #### ain't changing until that gets fixed. It starts with flooding our market with COVID money, orchestrated by the two worst presidential administrations of our lifetime.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Im sure it was shredded if you
Sep 27, 2023, 3:07 PM
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Already agreed with 19b, but certainly not on any logical points of disagreement.
And I just saw your edit. The legal system and its rewards for preposterous lawsuits is a bigger problem than prices. You’re never going to make prices lower than free, which is what the current crop of shoplifters have become quite fond of.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: Im sure it was shredded if you
Sep 27, 2023, 3:17 PM
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The legal system and its rewards for preposterous lawsuits is a bigger problem than prices.
Do I overall think it's absurd that the Best Buy in Spartanburg got nailed for the dude's death? Yes. But you can also get me to pause when I consider the shoplifter wasn't a violent criminal, they had him on camera, and it could have gone to police. That's not a satisfying answer but that's the way it works.
You have to consider that your idea may be opening the door to reward people who are even more sinister and a danger to our society than those who shoplift.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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The problem is, even if the police arrest that guy he's out
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:03 PM
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the next day doing the same thing. And it is a matter of time before he hurts or kills somebody while committing a crime.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: The problem is, even if the police arrest that guy he's out
Sep 27, 2023, 4:04 PM
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Yep, that's a problem. Obed's suggestion is not the solution.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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People taking matters into their own hands is the solution
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:12 PM
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we get though unless something starts changing rapidly. People are already learning there's no point in calling the cops if you're a victim of property crime, the next step is for them to take care of the problem themselves.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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But hold on
Sep 27, 2023, 4:16 PM
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Nobody's arguing people shouldn't take matters into their own hands if they have to protect their property. Because I'm all about that.
Obed said there should be "blanket immunity" for anyone who commits violence against a suspected shoplifter, and basically was all like, (quotes are mine) "Well, oopsie, if someone who doesn't deserve it or an innocent person gets killed here and there, oh well!" And that's just silly.
It also doesn't even tackle how you're never getting this passed on a federal level, which is what it would take to create the situation he wants.
I ask this again: Places like Wal-Mart can afford armed security guards, so why don't they have them?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Because they know having armed security is more of
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:26 PM
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a liability then the property crime...for now, we're already seeing stores close in areas with this problem so maybe they make the business decision to just shut down rather than address the problem. Location depending, they may be in deeper shid with the local DA/law enforcement if they actually protect their property vs letting it be stolen. Again, our society is giving priority to the criminal.
I'm not sure he meant full on blanket immunity, but committing violence against someone already committing a crime should be OK. If the criminal wants to escalate, that's up to them but they're the root cause of the problem not the guy trying to stop them. So leave the good samaritan alone. Which many places don't, like in the case of Daniel Penny.
BLM did more damage to our society than most people want to admit, IMO. What we're seeing now has escalated since their little temper tantrum, and the fear of further riots/lawsuits is driving the lackadasical attitude our justice system is treating the problem with.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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^ This.***
Sep 27, 2023, 10:55 PM
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Ring of Honor [21656]
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Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ...
Sep 27, 2023, 12:30 PM
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We've had an open model. Anybody from anywhere can freely go anywhere they can travel and buy anything. That system is breaking down and especially in urban areas will likely vanish altogether, IMHO. We're atomizing as a culture, and IMHO, this is only going to accelerate, not decelerate. Like it or not we're drifting apart and what that means is the gaps between the haves and have-nots are growing ever larger, and the resentment and estrangement between different cultural groups is only going to get more pronounced.
Which means enclaves, and those enclaves are almost certainly going to fort up. In many places in the country it's happening already. How many of you have ever been up to the Cliffs at Glassy? And how many have ever been inside? (I have. It's very nice. And very exclusive. And way beyond the means of the most of us.) Adding stores to these privatized communities is an obvious next step. There's some places that's happened already too.
In higher-risk areas, everything's going to pretty much go automatic, IMHO, locked in behind bulletproof glass, essentially turning stores into giant vending machines. I think we're also going to see more and more automatic-type checkouts like we're seeing in those model Amazon stores where checkout is automatic, and the items you have in your cart are automatically scanned and deducted from your credit card. In a lot of other areas, we're likely going to see this endless series of strip malls vanish, replaced by islands of members-only shopping centers. For those in Greenville, imagine the Shops at Greenridge on Woodruff Road...and then put a giant gate at the entrance and exit where you have to produce a membership card to scan in, and again to exit. You get caught stealing, your membership gets yanked. It's coming. And very quickly.
People - especially liberals - will of course continue to squawk indignantly about inequality, but good luck with that. Liberals continue to miss something very obvious they absolutely once knew: there is no such thing as "separate but equal." If we want to live apart, and by different rules, our communities are going to be anything but equal. If you want to see where our road is taking us, look no further than, say, South Africa...which remains the most divided culture on Planet Earth.
I don't like a whole lot of this. But it seems to be where we're going.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Ok, so let's take it to the next logical step.....
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Sep 27, 2023, 1:28 PM
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When people say "F that" to the gates and jump them or give the finger to the security guard checking membership cards at private shopping centers and go steal stuff anyway, what then? Do they get physically detained, possibly getting harmed or killed in the process, then? If so, why not just do that under the current model? If not, how is that model any different ultimately than what we are doing today?
An empowered thief is an empowered thief, and a gate doesn't mean much.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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The gate won't mean #### if somebody isn't stopping
Sep 27, 2023, 1:40 PM
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and deterring the criminals from breeching it. That SHOULD BE law enforcement and the judicial system, but will be law abiding citizens protecting themselves and their freedom if those entities fail.
That's why it's so important for LE and the courts to do their job now.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: Ok, so let's take it to the next logical step.....
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Sep 27, 2023, 2:14 PM
[ in reply to Ok, so let's take it to the next logical step..... ] |
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This happened near St Louis. When the homeowners pulled out their weapons to defend their home, they were the ones that were prosecuted.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Oh, Lawd, LOL, no
Sep 27, 2023, 3:25 PM
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Don't even try to compare those idiots to this situation. No one was trying to get into their home or go on their property.
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National Champion [7692]
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Re: Oh, Lawd, LOL, no
Sep 27, 2023, 3:28 PM
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Those idiots also didn't actually do anything to anybody. They just stood there like doofuses in their own yard with their guns, yet they still got the book thrown at them while all the people who ripped down a fence in order to get into their neighborhood went unpunished.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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They broke Missouri state law and pled guilty...
Sep 27, 2023, 3:32 PM
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To lesser charges. They were later pardoned. Either way, not comparable to this discussion.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: They broke Missouri state law and pled guilty...
Sep 27, 2023, 3:44 PM
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Why is a mob of people breaking into your gated community and you bringing out weapons on your property to protect your property not comparable?
Of course I am chatting with the person who believes that Kyle Rittenhouse was not acting in self defense, even though there was video evidence that clearly shows he was.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 3:48 PM
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Now you're just grasping at red herrings in hope of derailing a discussion now that your post got trounced.
You brought a stupid, irrelevant example to an already ridiculous discussion. Go have a juice box and stay on topic next time.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
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Sep 27, 2023, 3:52 PM
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It's not irrelevant at all. I'm just not sure you are the best judge of self defense or defense of property.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:00 PM
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I don't know if I'm more skilled at that than you since I don't know you, but I'll take the bet. Quite skilled with firearms and well trained on WHEN to use them; most of the hair-brained pseudo macho #### I see on here on the regular are people who lack any semblance of balls to commit the violent, over the top responses to misdemeanors that they call for on a regular basis. Especially someone like Manac.
I have multiple firearms at the ready in my home if necessary, and if something like the incident you mentioned happened, I would handle the proper way by being ready in case they did enter my house. What I wouldn't do is stand in my yard like a moron for the world to video/photograph and brandish the gun at people who hadn't stepped onto my property. If that's how YOU would have responded to it, then you're just as dumb as them and YOU know nothing about proper self defense.
At least you had the correct opinion on Jan. 6.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:11 PM
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You're right. You don't know me. I didn't say they weren't stupid, but a mob of people did break into their gated neighborhood, and the homeowners were the one's that were charged with a crime.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Well, because they committed a crime
Sep 27, 2023, 4:13 PM
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But they were pardoned so I guess it doesn't matter anyway.
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: G da F outta here with that. ] |
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Its hard to say what the Saint Louis couple should have done. Tensions were ofc the charts because the “world was on fire” around them. So, for that reason they deserve a pass. They did not hurt anyone.
But in general I actually agree with you. I keep gauge by my bed and if someone breaks into my home I will shoot to kill them. If a thug is walking across my property of course I would not shoot unless he became a threat.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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That's how it's supposed to work.***
Sep 27, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: G da F outta here with that. ] |
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I agree with this. I would not shoot someone over property theft, and would only do so if they were in my home, or if I was concerned about our safety. And these people were idiots that basically gave up their position and made themselves targets, had anything actually gone down. But, I don't blame them for wanting to protect their home and community.
And, if we continue to move in a direction in which property crime becomes even more of a problem and seemingly very little is done about it, I am afraid that the situation could become more violent in some areas of the country.
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Paw Warrior [4988]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:36 PM
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That is precisely the danger in not being tough on crime. When people feel their only option in protecting property is to do so themselves people will get hurt. Letting criminals run wild is going to create more trigger happy citizens.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: G da F outta here with that.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to G da F outta here with that. ] |
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Got trounced... okay Birmingham. You gotta wrestling meme for us?
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Sure
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:05 PM
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This is what most of the people in this thread sound like right now.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: Oh, Lawd, LOL, no
Sep 27, 2023, 3:40 PM
[ in reply to Oh, Lawd, LOL, no ] |
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People said F the gates and broke into their neighborhood. And, no one was shot
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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They didn't say "F the gates"...
Sep 27, 2023, 3:44 PM
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To steal from their home. They didn't break into anyone's home or steal something. This example doesn't fit with this discussion. You know it's a stretch.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: They didn't say "F the gates"...
Sep 27, 2023, 3:48 PM
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Obed and Q were talking about gated communities and people breaking into them. That is what happened in this situation.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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The discussion is about shoplifting
Sep 27, 2023, 3:51 PM
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Your example didn't apply here.
There's a time and place for lethal force--or even threatening it--but it's becoming increasingly clear few here know when that applies.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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A 7/11 had been looted and burned not too far from their
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:00 PM
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house, the example absolutely applies here. They had no idea the intentions of the mob, and up until that point it was reasonable to assume their intentions were nefarious based on what had previously happened....Not only all around the country, but local to them.
You're also giving the benefit of the doubt to criminals that they won't become violent while simultaneously thinking the worst of a potential good samaritan, and I find that odd.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: A 7/11 had been looted and burned not too far from their
Sep 27, 2023, 4:03 PM
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Let's not call the St. Louis couple good Samaritans; they were idiots.
If said mob is going down my street, I'm in my house and ready if #### goes South. Standing out in the yard and pointing guns at them like idiots--and knowingly breaking the law--is stupid.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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That's your opinion, but you don't get to dictate to
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:08 PM
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people how they decide to protect themselves or their property. And let's not pretend like they didn't have a #### good reason to be in fear for their own safety as well as their properties given the context of the time.
If someone is breaking the law by standing on their own property armed in the face of a potential violent mob, that law is wrong. That's the entire crux of the issue here, we're punishing otherwise law abiding people while letting actual criminals run wild. There must be some recourse to property crime or things will get ugly. You saw exactly what ends up happening with the Ahmaud Arbery shooting.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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You're right. I don't.
Sep 27, 2023, 4:10 PM
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But the state of Missouri did, and I've been trained enough in firearms since I was 10 to know that they were being stupid with them. The crowd was proceeding past their home and made no indication they were going to enter their property. They could have been ready without pointing guns, which actually could have escalated the situation.
Not sure what your point is on the Arbery shooting.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Dude, given what was going on it was completely reasonable
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:15 PM
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to assume that mob would enter the property and/or physically harm them. It was happening to innocent people all over the place at the time. I could make the argument pointing guns is precisely what kept that from happening.
Ahmaud Arbery being killed was directly related to out of control property crime. He was ran down and shot because someone decided to take matters into their own hands since the cops weren't.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Re: Dude, given what was going on it was completely reasonable
Sep 27, 2023, 4:17 PM
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Ahmaud Arbery being killed was directly related to out of control property crime. He was ran down and shot because someone decided to take matters into their own hands since the cops weren't.
Which seems to make the case for NOT granting "blanket immunity" to people who use violence for suspected property crimes?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Not necessarily, had good samaritans not been fearful to
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Sep 27, 2023, 4:31 PM
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intervene when the thefts first started happening, and if law enforcement would have actually addressed the issue, things probably wouldn't have escalated to that point. What you saw there was a 'totally fed up with this ####' attitude from the guys who tracked him down.
You can't let a problem get to level 11, and expect otherwise normal peoples reaction to stay at a 1 or 2. Particularly if you've neutered them from doing anything about it up until that point.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Shes definitely not a navy seal, but they had no idea if
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Jan 25, 2024, 6:28 PM
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People in that mob were armed or not. They did nothing wrong, sorry. This attitude that they somehow did is how we got to the point of mass looting, and is the problem.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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So I can stand in my driveway and point a firearm at
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:40 PM
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anybody walking past my house? Why did these two attorneys plead guilty to second-degree harrassment and fourth-degree assault if they did nothing wrong?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Dont be ridiculous, thats not what they were doing and you
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Sep 27, 2023, 5:47 PM
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Know it. Angry mob breaks down a gate to get into their neighborhood, a store has already been looted and burned locally(not to mention all of the ones nationally), but they’re the bad guys for going out there in an attempt to defend their property? It’s absurd, and is precisely why we’re seeing the issue we’re seeing. Was it a tactic I’d use? No, but they’re not wrong for doing it either.
I DGAF about what they plead guilty to, the fact that they were charged in the first place shows the inherent problem with our justice system. That DA was simultaneously refusing to charge looters who were arrested, which makes the whole thing even more maddening.
It genuinely is a perfect illustration of why we’re having the issues discussed in this thread.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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So CIRCUMSTANTIALLY, I'm allowed to stand in my
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Sep 27, 2023, 6:24 PM
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driveway and point a firearm at people passing by on the street or the sidewalk. What if I heard about a store being burned in St. Louis? That seems like a credible threat to me and my family in South Carolina. Or is there some threat proximity/distance rule we should incorporate into this grey area? Exactly what property were these two defending if nobody was on their property? Did the protestors trespass on other properties in the neighborhood that didn't have armed idiots standing in the driveway? (hint: they didn't)
This is the problem you, Obed, Smiling, manac, etc. are running into in this thread. Laws are written with the intent to be clear and concise, and frequently, judges and juries have to make rulings on how they are interpreted in specific events and instances. What you guys are all trying to do is hand over the power of interpretation and judgement to citizens, as in "here's my assessment of the situation, I should be able to use deadly force." Citizens WILL make poor judgements that they wouldn't otherwise make if there are no repercussions for their actions. Not all of them, of course, but anything > 0 is unacceptable, particularly if it causes loss of life.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Yes, you should be able to if there is a genuine threat
Sep 27, 2023, 7:33 PM
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Which that mob could very reasonably be interpreted as, despite you’re trying to play dumb and ignore everything else that was happening during that time period. If an angry mob had looted and burned a store a mile from your house, and an angry mob showed up in front of your house, you wouldn’t feel threatened? It’d be completely absurd if you didn’t. The fact some people apparently can’t distinguish between pointing a gun at some random person walking down the street and pointing one at an angry mob in a time period where angry mobs were assaulting and robbing people is why we can’t have nice things. Honestly it leaves me speechless.
You’re also totally ignoring the point that laws are only being enforced on law abiding citizens, there’s really no cost for the criminal. They didn’t shoot anyone, so what’s the problem? You keep harping on the fact that the mob wasn’t technic ally trespassing, but they were #### sure threatening/intimidating. So what’s the difference? Someone has to wait to be victimized before they take any sort of defensive action? That’s dumb as ####, and with all due respect, is precisely the attitude that has gotten us here.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Dude.
Sep 27, 2023, 7:56 PM
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What you're saying is that anytime I feel threatened (and to be clear, it's MY interpretation of "threatened", not anybody else's), I can brandish and point a firearm at the threat.
C'mon. This is silly.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Do you need someone elses input to determine
Sep 27, 2023, 8:15 PM
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How threatened you should feel in any given circumstance? Should everyone just run and tell a teacher and hope everything will be alright? The people you’re worried about ‘making bad decisions’ are already doing it. The only people being held back are the more reasonable ones, because they’ve got a lot more to lose when they become the bad guy for shooting or beating someone trying to steal their stuff.
The very specific problem we have is that the criminal becomes the victim when someone fights back, this should not be the case.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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So, again....
Sep 27, 2023, 11:20 PM
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I'm allowed to brandish and point a firearm anytime I feel threatened anywhere in this country?
No? Well, why not?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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If it's reasonable to do so, yes.***
Sep 28, 2023, 9:12 AM
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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And yet, law enforcement and judges are going to disagree
Sep 28, 2023, 12:02 PM
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with this in the large majority of cases. What should this tell us? That the law is wrong?
This is akin to the rash of cases of old FOX News-watching men shooting people on their front porch (or in a car in the driveway) in the last couple of months.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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When law enforcement and judges are coming down on
Sep 28, 2023, 12:37 PM
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people defending themselves and not the aggressors, then yes the law is wrong. Remember, the same St Louis DA who charged the McCloskey's was actively refusing to charge rioters who were arrested, so is that right or wrong in your eyes?
Are those men shooting people on their front porch because of Fox News, or because property crime is out of control? What makes more sense?
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Oh, what were they doing?***
Sep 27, 2023, 6:28 PM
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: Oh, what were they doing?***
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Sep 27, 2023, 6:37 PM
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They broke into their gated community and they did stop and engage the homeowners. Obviously no one should be shot over that, but to say the mob wasn't threatening isn't really the whole story.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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The two homeowners standing outside and literally
Sep 27, 2023, 8:08 PM
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pointing firearms at them? Did the "angry mob" engage any other homeowners in this exclusive neighborhood? The protesters asked why these two were pointing guns at them. There's video of it. That's the extent of the "engagement", and the idea of fearing for their lives is a hefty stretch.
But if they were genuinely afraid for their lives, why wouldn't/shouldn't they be able to justifiably open fire on the crowd? That's what Lakebum is arguing for--all you need is to be scared for it to be perfectly kosher to pull out a gun and start waving it around, and heck, squeeze off a few rounds while you're brandishing! It's all about how you personally interpret the situation anyway.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Did they fire at the protestors?
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Sep 27, 2023, 8:24 PM
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True or false: angry mobs had been assaulting and robbing people both local to them and nationwide when this incident took place?
If rabid bears had been mauling people in your general vicinity, and a bear showed up in front of your house, would it not be reasonable to assume that bear, may in fact, be a rabid one that might maul you?
It’s completely baffling to me how anyone could question how they might have had sincere concerns about their safety, ESPECIALLY given the context of the time period. You simply aren’t being serious with that take. Not every threat calls for pointing a gun at someone, but if there’s one that does it was that one. Quite frankly, 2020 showed us why someone might actually need high capacity magazines.
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TigerNet Icon [152269]
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Hey, BLM riots were 3 years ago, but guess what?
Sep 27, 2023, 11:40 PM
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I'm still terrified, and you can't tell me that I'm not, so I will openly brandish a firearm everywhere I go now, as it's clearly my legal right.
Why do you suppose these two relatively affluent attorneys (who could afford other affluent criminal defense attorneys) had to plea bargain down to lesser charges of harrassment and assault? Must have been a liberal judge, yeah?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Because that was the path of least resistance for them
Sep 28, 2023, 9:15 AM
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given the way our justice system currently works. Innocent people plea down to lesser charges all of the time, that doesn't mean the charges were justified. This isn't hard, I don't know why you're going to the extreme to try to make your point. Again, if you can't see how the mob would be threatening, particularly given the context of the time, I really can't help you.
Does that mean you can go around pointing guns at people for no reason? No, it doesn't.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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So lemme ask this
Sep 28, 2023, 9:18 AM
[ in reply to Did they fire at the protestors? ] |
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Let's say that couple DID open fire into that crowd and take out some of the protesters.
Would you still defend their actions?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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They didn't though, did they?
Sep 28, 2023, 9:32 AM
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And a reasonable argument could be made that by brandishing their firearms they stopped the situation from escalating to the point of needing to open fire.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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But you're defending a woman...
Sep 28, 2023, 9:34 AM
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Pointing a gun with her finger on the trigger at people who ultimately didn't pose a threat, but you're defending it because she thought they were a threat.
So if she opened fire because she thought they were a threat, would you say that's a justified kill?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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They did pose a threat, the entire premise of your argument
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Sep 28, 2023, 9:46 AM
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is incorrect. Ultimately both sides backed down, but that's not to say there was not potential for violence. If they had overrun the couple and assaulted/robbed them, like we saw happen so often during that time period, what do you say then? Oh well? In your mind, at what point are they allowed to take a defensive posture?
I would say the threshold for it being reasonable to open fire is if the group started making their way onto the property and ignoring warnings. At that time I would have no problem with them opening fire.
Again, to put this into context, the local DA was refusing to prosecute actual rioters while simultaneously going after this couple. WHICH IS THE WHOLE PROBLEM IN A NUTSHELL
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CU Medallion [18985]
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Yes, he would...
Sep 28, 2023, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to So lemme ask this ] |
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"Are those men shooting people on their front porch because of Fox News, or because property crime is out of control?" (in reference to 19B saying this, "rash of cases of old FOX News-watching men shooting people on their front porch (or in a car in the driveway) in the last couple of months.)
"Not every threat calls for pointing a gun at someone, but if there’s one that does it was that one. Quite frankly, 2020 showed us why someone might actually need high capacity magazines."
-Lakebum in this thread
He and other far-right posters on here live in a bubble that tells them every day to be afraid for their lives and that they are being persecuted, invaded, and threatened so they better be proactive in defending themselves.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: Yes, he would...
Sep 28, 2023, 5:37 PM
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In that situation, proactive would have been meeting them at the gate before they decided to trespass.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: The two homeowners standing outside and literally
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Sep 27, 2023, 9:31 PM
[ in reply to The two homeowners standing outside and literally ] |
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You seem to be glossing over the fact that the "protestors" broke into a private neighborhood and were trespassing from the beginning.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Y'all are trying to paint this as if they just jumped up
Sep 28, 2023, 9:37 AM
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from the dinner table and started muzzle sweeping random people out exercising and that is absolutely not the case. They weren't just "walking by", they were threatening and intimidating them.
Again, this is the crux of the issue, giving preference to the criminals over the otherwise law abiding citizen.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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They didn't start getting threats...
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Sep 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
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Until they walked outside and started pointing guns at people!
All those other people who stayed inside their homes didn't get threatened.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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They didn't? Were you there?
Sep 28, 2023, 10:25 AM
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I've got to say, this is some Simon Biles level of mental gymnastics required to say with a straight face an angry mob wasn't a potential threat when angry mobs had been looting, burning, and assaulting their way through the country at the time. It really is incredible.
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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Were you? You don't know, either
Sep 28, 2023, 10:38 AM
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Don't make a claim and state it as fact then cry "You weren't there!" if someone states otherwise. All you have are the words of two ### clowns who don't know proper gun safety.
All the other neighbors who stayed inside weren't threatened. The crowd never made an effort to get on their lawn. They inserted themselves into the situation, pointed guns at people, and then threats flew at them. You can watch it all on the video.
Funny how there aren't videos of other residents getting threatened when they stayed inside.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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It's more likely than not that they were being threatened
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Sep 28, 2023, 10:50 AM
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Again, given what was going on at the time.
Let's recap again, so you can hopefully see how ridiculous your argument is:
Big Picture: Nationwide riots are ongoing, videos of innocent people being assaulted/robbed abound. Private property being burned and destroyed
Locally: Store had been looted and burned by angry mob
Situation: Innocent, otherwise law abiding couple eating a meal on their patio. Angry mob breaks down gate to gain access to their neighborhood. They feel threatened, brandish firearms.
In your mind, they are the bad guys and had no reason to feel threatened. Despite the fact that any sane person would feel threatened in that same situation. You would feel threatened, and you're lying if you say otherwise. Did they use the best tactics? Probably not, but it's hard to say what you would do unless you're in their shoes. Have you ever been jumped? You lose control of the situation extremely quickly when outnumbered, so I don't blame someone for doing what they think they gotta do in the moment to avoid violence.
Maybe the mob toned it down after they had an AR pointed at them? That's generally how human nature works, when facing no resistance people tend to run wild, when they do they typically slow their roll. Of course, it's impossible to say, but often times guns prevent a crime from happening in the first place simply because it changes the risk/reward dynamic for the criminal.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108405]
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Your pic reminds me of Manning Ave. in Columbia
Sep 27, 2023, 6:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: Smash & grab/shoplifting: risk vs. reward ... ] |
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As a kid (1980's) I remember my dad going to the dry cleaners at the corner or Manning Ave. and Taylor street. The neighborhood one one side had high-end houses, and the other side of the street was public housing. You can't get a more dramatic contrast. This isn't something new. if anything, it's less than in the past IMO.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0113049,-81.0089038,3a,75y,198.12h,94.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAdIA5km9iY0CcqYYMxPqlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu Google Maps Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
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TigerNet Elite [70917]
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Well, here you go step by step
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Sep 27, 2023, 12:32 PM
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1) you don’t defund the police.
2) you make contracts and pensions lucrative again
3) you get rid of prosecutors who will just give them a personal bond tomorrow morning
4) you enforce child neglect and have a CPS that means something so that kids don’t become animals.
Just a few of the things I can think of…
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All-Time Great [90469]
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I guess much like school shootings, we've determined its an
Sep 27, 2023, 2:02 PM
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acceptable loss for living in a free society.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: I guess much like school shootings, we've determined its an
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Sep 27, 2023, 2:08 PM
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A free society and a lawless society are two different things. Some areas seem to be quickly becoming lawless societies.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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A little more priority is given on murderers.***
Sep 27, 2023, 3:20 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11352]
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The latest one in the news - they said there were multiple
Sep 27, 2023, 4:32 PM
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arrests. I'm curious what the penalties will be for those folks?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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A handful, a very small % of those committing these
Sep 27, 2023, 5:54 PM
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crimes are caught and prosecuted. Not nearly enough to act as any kind of deterrent.
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CU Medallion [18985]
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Marshall Project has a good piece on this issue...
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Sep 27, 2023, 6:10 PM
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https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/02/27/shoplifting-retail-theft-lawmakers-response
"To make their case about rising crime, industry leaders have mainly relied on figures from an annual survey conducted by the National Retail Federation, one of the largest retail trade associations in the country..."External theft only represented a portion of overall losses, the survey shows. The largest share, roughly two-thirds of missing merchandise, is a result of employee theft, process failures and unknown sources."
"The main focus, retail lobbyists say, needs to be on punishing the masterminds behind the crime rings who exploit the shoplifters."
A tangential question I have, is why do you think you and so many "conservatives" seem to care about this issue so strongly as evidenced by the responses in this thread? Are you seeing daily reports about this issue where you get your news?
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National Champion [7692]
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Re: Marshall Project has a good piece on this issue...
Sep 27, 2023, 7:09 PM
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No corporate CEO needs to look any further than their own p&l to determine which locations have the biggest shrink/theft issues. The idea they are seeking external "annual surveys" to push some kind of agenda that isn't based on their reality is laughable. Post that propaganda elsewhere.
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CU Medallion [18985]
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You didn't read it.***
Sep 27, 2023, 7:36 PM
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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LOL, one article and you suspend critical thought?
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Sep 28, 2023, 10:07 AM
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Let's look at their other articles by the leader of the project and this organization......Nooooooo, they clearly aren't incredibly sympathetic to criminals to the point they would try to minimize their fault in any given topic.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/staff/nicole-lewis
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CU Medallion [18985]
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lol, aren't you a believer in "don't attack the source!"?
Sep 28, 2023, 5:32 PM
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and tend to admonish those that don't engage the argument?
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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A) Did you REALLY lol? B) That's a pretty large
Sep 28, 2023, 5:59 PM
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oversimplification. This isn't just attacking the source. This is chuckling at the nads required to cite these guys on this topic. They're funded by The Open Societies Foundation---the very Soros group that's done such a stellar job installing DA's around the country who have an aversion to actually prosecuting crimes. Of course they're taking a "nothing to see here" approach to shoplifting.
This is the equivalent of citing a NAMBLA article saying that child molestation stats are overblown. Congrats, this is world class.
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CU Medallion [18985]
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C) LOL (sorry I didn't capitalize, like you) D) Soros! LOL
Sep 28, 2023, 6:05 PM
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E)NAMBLA! LOL F)So, no defense of being a hypocrite on the issue of attacking the source, LOL G)"Nads"! LOL
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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H) "I post a total joke of a source and want
Sep 28, 2023, 6:20 PM
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To pretend that calling me out on it is like questioning an Atlantic article on Covid!”
Hang on, BRB. I’m going to go find the “People who have Had Their Stores Looted Project”, funded by the Koch Brothers, and offer it as my unbiased counterpoint to your “People who feel bad for criminals and hate the justice system” totally unbiased and amazing citation.
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CU Medallion [18985]
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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HMU on this next week.
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Sep 28, 2023, 7:19 PM
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I am packing right now and heading out at 6am for SC for my daughter’s official visit at her future school.
Glad to discuss further then since you took the time to reply with more links, but from now till Monday I won’t be on for more than a couple minutes at a time.
Also, for real I only remember griping about “source rejection” one time, when quoz was refusing to view a Zero Hedge that was essentially a repost of a link from a more mainstream source. Maybe I’ve done it another time but it’s not been a crusade of mine or anything. Have a good one.
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CU Medallion [18985]
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No problem, will try to remember...
Sep 28, 2023, 8:01 PM
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and hope your trip is a good one.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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I've watched a guy with my own two eyes walk out of Dollar
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Sep 28, 2023, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to Marshall Project has a good piece on this issue... ] |
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General with a bunch of stuff he didn't pay for. And it happens almost every day if you talk to the people who work there. Both me personally and my family has had trailers, golf carts, stereos, fishing equipment, paddle boards, and many other things stolen from us throughout the years with zero recourse...Even when there was clear video of the suspect. Most of my neighbors have similar stories.
And you ask why so many people care so strongly about this issue? Is that a serious question? Have you ever had anything stolen from you? Like Obed said above, "what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours" is a basic tenant of our society, once that is gone so is civilization as we know it.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108405]
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I rememeber as a kid once I was at the cash register with my
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Sep 27, 2023, 6:20 PM
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dad at Bi-Lo. All of a sudden two guys FORM TACKLE this guy, and meat packets go flying everywhere from under his coat. Steaks mostly. They literally hog-tied the guy and DRAGGED him into the store office and tied him to a chair until the cops got there. About 5 minutes. Guy was hauled off in cuffs.
Why is this so difficult now?
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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I was in a local Publix about 10 years ago and I saw a guy
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Sep 27, 2023, 6:52 PM
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by-pass checkout and push a buggy overflowing with 12 packs of beer out the door. 2 or 3 employees took off after him and he ditched the buggy full of beer, as they chased him all the way to a getaway car waiting at the far end of the parking lot before he made his escape.
About 3 years ago I saw the manager of a Citgo convenience store, a big fat 65 yr old woman, slap the shid out of a teenager who she acosted as he was stealing stuff from her store. She cussed him for all he was worth and he took off running.
This was fantastic and should happen more often:
https://sandrarose.com/2023/08/convenience-store-owner-brutally-beat-brazen-shoplifter-with-stick-video/
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National Champion [7692]
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Re: I rememeber as a kid once I was at the cash register with my
Sep 27, 2023, 9:17 PM
[ in reply to I rememeber as a kid once I was at the cash register with my ] |
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Because, assuming he was of a certain race, as soon as this guy got home he would call the news, let them show off his shiner, get portrayed as a victim of systemic racism, in general, and the individuals who perpetrated this great crime upon him, as well as their corporate employers, would have their lives/business destroyed (literally) by a masked mob of leftists by the end of the day.
Then there would be civil lawsuits, suddenly others would conveniently emerge to claim similar mistreatment and ultimately the business would pay a huge settlement, pay a huge amount of hush money to get the Jessie Jackson's of the world to leave them alone and would rewrite corporate policy to make it a mandatory termination for any employee who attempts to confront a shoplifter.
Enjoy your leftist scum tax because you are paying extra for every item you purchase to make up the difference of what Democrats steal.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Because you'd have bunch of people whining about how they
1
Sep 28, 2023, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to I rememeber as a kid once I was at the cash register with my ] |
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might have hurt the guy in the process of tackling him, as we can see in this thread. Apparently many people would rather lower their standard of living rather than risk injuring a criminal.
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TigerNet Immortal [169651]
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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A whole lot of good people would.
Sep 27, 2023, 7:58 PM
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Traditonally, not that long ago, it was pretty common for employees and bystanders to intervene.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: A whole lot of good people would.
Sep 27, 2023, 8:43 PM
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I find you pretty trustworthy, so I'm not attacking you here or even saying you are wrong. I'm curious if we have data on this? I can't seem to find anything on it.
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Orange Immortal [65578]
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Not aware of any.***
Sep 27, 2023, 8:56 PM
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Tiger Titan [48668]
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LOL, no
Sep 28, 2023, 8:22 AM
[ in reply to A whole lot of good people would. ] |
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The person who wants to intervene nowadays--and get hired for that job--likely isn't a good person. They just want to crack heads.
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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I stopped a shoplifting at Fresh Market when I was
Sep 28, 2023, 10:09 AM
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15. I'd like to think I'd do the exact same today, given my morality hasn't really changed (and I hope has improved even) but the difference is I'd probably get fired for it today vs the raise I got back then.
Am I just a lousy person with a penchant for violence?
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TigerNet Immortal [176590]
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
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My local paper
Sep 28, 2023, 12:44 PM
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has a "crime blotter" section that reports arrests and other incidents, and I see people getting arrested for theft from 7-11s and department stores all the time.
So it's not that no one's getting arrested anymore, at least in my neck of the woods.
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