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CU Guru [1418]
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Should America be governed by Christian values?
Oct 7, 2022, 11:03 AM
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Hey all y’all that fancy yourselves Christian’s, do you think the rule of law should be based/integrated with Christianity?
Seems that would be a Theocracy and what the founders were so opposed to. Yet we have politicians talking about their Christian values, making laws based on Christianity, and Christian’s questioning other Christian’s Christiness . It will be great when an Athirst or agnostic can win an election without having to prove his religiousness
I think most people would say no to the idea of a Theocracy, yet want and support laws based on (their interpretation) of what god wants/likes.
Pubs in General are a confusing bunch on this issue. The same folks that want less government interference with their lives want laws to tell people how to live theirs, based on (their interpretation) of the Bible
I’m curious will anyone actually admit to wanting a theocracy or explain to me the difference?
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Orange Blooded [4078]
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Re: Should America be governed by Christian values?
Oct 7, 2022, 11:10 AM
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Most of the people who push for "Christian values" are FOS and don't really believe in that. Their support for DADDY and Walker show that the whole "Christian" thing is merely out of convenience and not really their core values.
History has shown us that "Christian" states were complete failures and led to millions of people murdered (just like today's Islamic states).
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Heisman Winner [121087]
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No, but it would be nice if all practiced
Oct 7, 2022, 11:12 AM
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The Golden Rule…
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All-In [42980]
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That is a good one.
Oct 7, 2022, 11:14 AM
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Not an exclusively Christian value, though. Other religions also adhere to that.
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Orange Blooded [2742]
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lol, yeah...the golden rule....yeah c'mon
Oct 7, 2022, 2:26 PM
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until Hay Zeuss wants to camp in your front yard.
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All-In [42980]
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Pretty easy nope
Oct 7, 2022, 11:15 AM
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Christian doctrine doesn't mesh well with the structure of our government as mapped out in the Constitution, and it would pretty much negate the First Amendment.
And any group that's willing to negate THAT amendment, well...
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110%er [7564]
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Re: Pretty easy nope ... not so easy
Oct 7, 2022, 9:22 PM
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Components of Christian doctrine is infused into the governance of the USA.
If the OP's question is instead meant to ask if the entirety of Christian doctrine should be the governing document to the USA, then that would mean no Constitution, no laws, nothing but the New Testament.
Depending upon how one interprets the OP's intent, then all sorts of answers can be legitimate.
The sad sacks who choose not to attempt to address the OP's question, but instead use this thread as an occasion to blast Christians, apparently have serious anger issues.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 11:25 AM
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are not forced to practice or follow Christianity per se, and are free to hold non-Christian religious views, and as long as the constitution is not violated, then there is certainly nothing wrong with our society being governed by people who hold Christian values, and whose governing reflects those values.
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Hall of Famer [20663]
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Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 11:35 AM
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You can't have it both ways, though. Being openly Christian is fine, IMHO. But when you start claiming the Bible is a higher authority than the Constitution, what you're saying is, you'll throw away the Constitution if it suits you.
You have to choose, and be willing to push back on the other side aggressively if they violate those boundaries. Are you? What do you say to this woman?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIwqJyyNvv4
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 11:45 AM
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This ⬆️.
This lady and I use that word loosely, and those like her…. Many pubs think this way but most want say it out loud OR try to talk out both sides saying yeah but no, but.
Understand I couldn’t care less what religion or lack there of a person has. I do not think governing by the Bible has any place in government.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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BS - I'm not suggesting we have it "both ways".
Oct 7, 2022, 11:48 AM
[ in reply to Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people ] |
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That's why I made it clear "and as long as the constitution is not violated". All people who govern us are motivated, inspired, and informed by many different sources, one of those being religion Their governing can (and does) reflect those values. There is nothing wrong with that, and no law against it.
That's very different from declaring "If it says so in The Bible, it's going to be the law of the land", which would be wrong, and I am not suggesting that.
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Hall of Famer [20307]
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Re: BS - I'm not suggesting we have it "both ways".
Oct 7, 2022, 4:39 PM
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They know that... they're just phishing for a way to bash Jesus.
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All-In [42980]
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Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people ] |
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...and whose governing reflects those values.
Here's where the situation gets sticky. No, that governing really can't reflect that as it isn't representative of the people nor does it obey the law. Many Christian "values" are discriminatory and shouldn't be applied to governing. They were in the past, such as how women were treated as lesser individuals or how minority populations were treated or LGBT rights.
I know that's well past us, but it happened in the name of Christianity at one point so we know it's possible. And it's not outrageous to say some politicians would bring all of that back if given the green light to do so.
All the rest you mentioned is perfectly fine.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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To be clear, again, the constitution is the law of the land.
Oct 7, 2022, 11:57 AM
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I thought I was very clear about that from the start, and I have never implied anything else.
Biblical teaching does not, nor should it be the law of the land, nor should it replace the laws we have.
People elect law makers; there is no law or understood, accepted precept that declares that all laws must reflect the will of all people. Most laws are representative of most people, but not all. Lawmakers pass laws all of the time that aren't.
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All-In [42980]
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You were...
Oct 7, 2022, 12:50 PM
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Your last little bit needed clarification, and if it means it's okay that someone makes their governing decisions based on the word of the Bible, we have a problem there.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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What is the law or principle that precludes religion from
Oct 7, 2022, 1:07 PM
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informing the decisions of lawmakers?
Off to lunch, will catch up later.
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 11:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people ] |
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Very good points.
The hot button abortion rights is a religious issue as well. Christian’s believe it’s wrong and want to ban choice for EVERYONE based on that belief, however many are fine with taking a life on other circumstances like capital punishment… but that’s a topic for another thread
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Right, that is a completely different topic.***
Oct 7, 2022, 12:01 PM
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: Right, that is a completely different topic.***
Oct 7, 2022, 12:03 PM
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So you saying laws should not be made to limit choice based on religion?
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CU Guru [1418]
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Are you saying that our lawmakers can base the laws they
Oct 7, 2022, 12:18 PM
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pass on logic, reason, education and knowledge of a particular subject, personal experience, a Magic Eight Ball, a dream they had, emotions, or a flip of a coin, but at no point can their religious beliefs enter into the process?
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All-In [42980]
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Not when...
Oct 7, 2022, 12:51 PM
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It imposes restrictions on other citizens based on those beliefs, and especially when it attaches a punishment to the restrictions.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Sure they can - and do all of the time.***
Oct 7, 2022, 12:57 PM
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All-In [25054]
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Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people
Oct 7, 2022, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Not absolutely, and not necessarily, but as long as people ] |
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A person doesn't have to be religious to think that an abortion is ending a life. If a person believes that a baby is being killed, then of course that person would vote for strict abortion laws.
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All-TigerNet [11506]
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No
Oct 7, 2022, 11:50 AM
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Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible #### problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
-Barry Goldwater
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All-TigerNet [13528]
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Re: Should America be governed by Christian values?
Oct 7, 2022, 11:52 AM
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I prefer satanic values.
But anyway, is there any difference between a Christian trying to garner votes from Christians and an agnostic doing the same??
It’s amazing to me the amount of “pot and kettle” on this board.
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All-In [42980]
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Anyone who caters just to...
Oct 7, 2022, 11:56 AM
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Just the agnostic population of America ain't gonna win an election. There's not enough of them.
At least, not publicly.
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All-TigerNet [13528]
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Re: Anyone who caters just to...
Oct 7, 2022, 12:27 PM
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Yea, that's why I lost my bid for Coroner.
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CU Guru [1418]
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All-TigerNet [13528]
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Re: Should America be governed by Christian values?
Oct 7, 2022, 12:27 PM
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Fetterman
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All-In [25054]
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Re: Should America be governed by Christian values?
Oct 7, 2022, 11:55 AM
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Luckily the Constitution says a religious test cannot be administered as a requirement for office. If a lawmaker votes on legislation based on religious conscience, I see no issue with that. If that lawmaker's constituents don't like it, they can vote that person out of office.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Exactly, that's the way it works, and the way it should
Oct 7, 2022, 12:00 PM
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work, and the way it will work.
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Legend [18082]
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Well, since any law is based upon a moral or ethical issue,
Oct 7, 2022, 12:24 PM
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what should one use to guide those moral or ethical decisions made for the masses? There will always be a majority rule that is governed by the majority belief system concerning what is right and wrong, good or bad - punishable or non-punishable. How does one teach those "values"? What guideline should be used to outline those "values"?
What should be used to guide those moral or ethical decisions?
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CU Medallion [59142]
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"Thou shalt not kill (murder)" is a Christian value.
Oct 7, 2022, 12:38 PM
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It's also pretty much a universal value held by all major religions, and non-religious people as well.
If a lawmaker says, "I think murder is wrong, because that's what The Bible teaches me", is he wrong for trying to pass a law against murder, since it reflects Christian values? Of course not.
If he says, "I think homosexuality is wrong, because that's what The Bible teaches", is he wrong for trying to pass a law against homosexuality? I think he is, not because he's basing it on a religion I happen to disagree with, but because I don't think homosexuality is wrong or should be outlawed, and I think he's wrong no matter what he's basing it on.
No religion should ever replace law. There's no preventing religion (or anything else) from influencing lawmakers, however, nor should there be. If you are afraid of their influences, don't vote for them.
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All-In [42980]
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Re: "Thou shalt not kill (murder)" is a Christian value.
Oct 7, 2022, 12:53 PM
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I think it also boils down to the case of victimhood. Religion or not, we all agree murder victimizes someone and thus is wrong.
When we look at homosexuality between two consenting adults, there is no victim. When it becomes restricted, religious or not, it becomes the government legislating its perceived morality for victimless crimes.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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So you agree that religion can inform the decisions of
Oct 7, 2022, 1:01 PM
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lawmakers.
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: So you agree that religion can inform the decisions of
Oct 7, 2022, 1:15 PM
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If you agree with that. Then what about other religions?
The thou shalt not kill is a bad example, coz laws mot killing people were around long before the 10 commandments. The Bible just happens to say it too. I will say that for the most part most Christian’s don’t themselves practice what they preach yet they preach the cherry picked biblical principles for others. When it comes to supporting/ making of laws, that’s just wrong
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Are you trying to make a case against Christianity in general,
Oct 7, 2022, 2:53 PM
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or against any religion influencing the people who govern us in any way?
We should not replace our laws or system of lawmaking and governance with any religion, including Christianity. We all have the right to believe what we choose to believe about religion, and can't be forced to practice or accept any religion. That does not mean that our laws and society in general cannot reflect the influence of the religious beliefs of the people, or of the people who make the laws. There is a huge, clear difference between those two things.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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Here's what I'm getting at - for this example, lets pretend
Oct 7, 2022, 3:11 PM
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murder is legal. You, as a representative with a vote, think that murder is wrong, and that it should be illegal. Another representative, Christian lawmaker, due in some part to his Christian beliefs, also thinks murder is wrong, and introduces a bill to make it illegal.
Do you vote for the bill, agreeing with the Christian that murder is wrong and should be illegal? Or
Do you oppose the bill because the person who introduced it is a Christian, then reintroduce the bill again yourself?
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All-In [42980]
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Not quite sure what you think I agree on...
Oct 7, 2022, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to So you agree that religion can inform the decisions of ] |
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My point is that in the case of murder, we can say Christianity applies, but that's not why we have murder laws.
Homosexuality laws were an application of Christianity to oppress a certain segment of the population, so if that's agreeing with you that religion informs their decisions, sure. But it's a great example of why politicians shouldn't be allowed to make laws based on religion.
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: Not quite sure what you think I agree on...
Oct 7, 2022, 1:53 PM
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I’m with you on this, and great example of laws made based on religious beliefs that are not necessarily a constitution issue.
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CU Medallion [59142]
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You said "I think it also boils down to the case of
Oct 7, 2022, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to Not quite sure what you think I agree on... ] |
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victimhood. Religion or not, we all agree murder victimizes someone and thus is wrong".
Are you telling me that it would be okay to make murder illegal, if it was based on that reasoning, but it would be wrong to make it illegal if the person who introduced the bill, or anybody who voted for it was influenced by their religious beliefs in any way?
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CU Medallion [59142]
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But, I agree that nobody should be forced to adhere to any
Oct 7, 2022, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to Not quite sure what you think I agree on... ] |
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religious belief they disagree with, unless, as in the case of murder, for example, the case can be made apart from religion. We can't say, "this is my religious belief, therefore you must follow it as well". But, we can say "This is my religious belief, and for me, that's enough, but my religion aside, here is why it's bad for society, and why we should make it a law for all ..." I think there is very often overlap between "Christian values" (boy, there's a powder keg) and that which is objectively good for our society and in line with our constitution. When it's not, we should reject it.
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110%er [9273]
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lets start with a budget
Oct 7, 2022, 1:14 PM
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and go from there
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Orange Blooded [2742]
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WWJD framing usually indicts 99% of the
Oct 7, 2022, 2:21 PM
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so-called Christian political class, so the question on its face is way too loaded to answer with a straight face.
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All-TigerNet [13528]
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Re: WWJD framing usually indicts 99% of the
Oct 7, 2022, 3:01 PM
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what would jews do?
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Hall of Famer [21609]
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I'd like to base it on Santa Claus.***
Oct 7, 2022, 4:05 PM
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CU Medallion [60714]
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Values. Yes.
Oct 7, 2022, 4:09 PM
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Period.
Ten Commandments are the values and a great. Rule of thumb.
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110%er [7564]
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Re: America is governed to some extent by Christian values
Oct 7, 2022, 9:15 PM
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Can you (or anyone) recognize or identify any Christian values in this?
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Reach out if you / others need some help.
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