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Topic: Offensive struggles explained?
Replies: 92   Last Post: Sep 20, 2021, 8:56 PM by: CM Shack
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[ Tiger Boards - Clemson Football ]
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Replies: 92  

Offensive struggles explained?

emoji_events [9]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:08 PM
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We have new starters at 9 of 11 positions. Only holdovers at the same position as last year are Putnam at RG and Galloway at TE.

Yes we recruit great, but even great recruits need game time together. Call it an excuse, but when was the last time anyone remembers this type situation?

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Haven't we led the nation the last two years in the number

[3]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:11 PM
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of people we play?First time starters? Sure, but they SHOULD have gotten plenty of reps

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PT is one thing

[4]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:21 PM
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Playing together is another, especially on the OL. We have a C who has never played C, a true Freshman LG, and a new LT. DJ has never played with Ross, and hardly played with Ngata and Ladson as they were hurt most of last season. True Freshman starting RB.

We wonder why we look so disjointed? This isn't all of it, but it's part of it

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Well, yeah, of course it is part of it...So is bad

emoji_events [7]
Sep 20, 2021, 12:36 AM
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evaluations, poor development, injuries and bad gameplanning/playcalling...Were you to make a pie chart, I would think it would have several wedges, not just one or two

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Yet when/if this one comes together


Sep 20, 2021, 7:06 AM
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others will fall in to place. You ever worked somewhere where everyone is new? I have, and it's normally chaotic for a while. Until folks settle in and a comfort level develops

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Execution at the most critical position on offense as well as the OL.


Sep 19, 2021, 11:56 PM
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That's been the primary issue.

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Yes it has


Sep 20, 2021, 7:09 AM
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But OL is all about working together. These guys have never done that. DJ has hardly worked with these WR in games. It's obviously affected his confidence.

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They HAVE done that.

[2]
Sep 20, 2021, 6:55 PM
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All spring, fall camp, and THREE weeks of game prep. So, the excuse that these guys have never met won’t hold water, padre.

A GT team that lost to NIU imposed their will on our offense. That shouldn’t happen to our reserves, much less our starting offense… ever.

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Games are kind of different***


Sep 20, 2021, 7:41 PM
Reply



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Yes, that's why we are still a top 10 team...


Sep 20, 2021, 5:27 PM
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while teams like LSU are not.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[4]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:16 PM
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Nothing to see here folks, make sure to sip the Orange cool aid and don’t forget to tip your bartender

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Nah, just realistic enough to understand

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 7:12 AM
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that when new people play new positions at 9 of 11 spots, it can be sketchy. Hopefully, just for a while

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I'm sorry, are Ngata and Ladson new players playing a new


Sep 20, 2021, 3:16 PM
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position? Didn't they both start LAST year at the SAME position?

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Re: I'm sorry, are Ngata and Ladson new players playing a new


Sep 20, 2021, 3:58 PM
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Hardly....they barely played much last year because they stayed injured through it. Rodgers and Powell played the majority of the time, and were more the main guys at those positions.

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So the passing game struggled last year because we lost

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 5:25 PM
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Ladson and Ngata and this year it suffers because they aren't seasoned, as juniors, on a team that has led the nation the two previous seasons at playing people...Do I have that right?

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Both were hurt most of the year***


Sep 20, 2021, 5:29 PM
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Yes, but were they starters LAST year?***


Sep 20, 2021, 6:22 PM
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Maybe a few games before Powell broke out


Sep 20, 2021, 7:10 PM
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and they got hurt to start the year. As someone stated above, primary wide outs were Powell and Rogers. Neither played when DJ started. Ngata was hurt again in camp. At least the light looks to be coming on for him. Ladson is in his 3rd year of meh

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Oh, I KNOW who the primary WRs were last year and CP was


Sep 20, 2021, 7:26 PM
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BURIED on the depth chart until Ladson and Ngata got injured...But they were both starting before they got injured, which is the point that you seem to be avoiding...It's funny how much was made of their absence last year

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Both have been disappointing to be honest


Sep 20, 2021, 7:52 PM
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in all but a handful of games, neither started. JMO, returning starters started most of the games, not a couple here and there

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:30 AM
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Nothing to see here folks, make sure to sip the Orange cool aid and don’t forget to tip your bartender



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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:32 AM
Reply


Nothing to see here folks, make sure to sip the Orange cool aid and don’t forget to tip your bartender



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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[2]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:31 PM
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I think this is a BIG part of it.

- While we return the majority of our Lineman, most of them are not in their normal position.
- We cross train the lineman, a lot, which is great long term. But in the early going, there is bound to be mistakes and hesitancy b/c of all the back and forth playing multiple positions.
- Ross is a big talent, but he he didn't play for 18 months, and now he's in the slot.
- New QB, RB as well.
- Dabo, by design, starts from scratch every year. With that said, I think the playbook gets installed slowly throughout the season, especially with new QBs.
- Also, we have a New RB coach, New TE Coach, and the WR coach is in his 2nd year.


None of these are meant to be excuses. We look like a brand new offense, with a whole new coaching staff and new players and every position.

I certainly expect us to get better in the coming weeks. However, I don't think we're going to be a bit of a shell of what we were the last 2 years.

2021 white level member flag link

Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[4]
Sep 19, 2021, 11:47 PM
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So are you saying that we are retooling?
Are we retooling?
Please tell me we are retooling so I can ask you how Alabama manages to retool every year and look in sync because we sure as heck look like a kitchen sink with a bunch of cracks or a suit of armour with holes.
Is that a good enough excuse?

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:28 AM
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Amen to that. Alabama has two key things...great talent and great coaching. Clemson has achieved both on defense. On offense, Clemson has talent in skill positions primarily and coaching has regularly been a question mark?

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 1:18 PM
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When you say regularly are you referring to this season? Last season? Last two seasons? Asking for clarification because it matters what time frame you are speaking of as to how silly it sounds

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Bama had 331 total yards Saturday


Sep 20, 2021, 8:45 AM
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and only 91 rushing. Might want to hold off on the anointing for a bit.

Florida is a good team. Tech isnt. But Bama after two gimmes didnt blow the doors off last weekend

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 1:07 PM
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Bama still out recruits us substantially.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 8:10 PM
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Bama had the #1 recruiting class 9 of the last 10 years.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 1:17 PM
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And I remember a few years again Bama being tied 10-10 with the Citadel at halftime of a game. They were notoriously slow starting on offense for several years. But the good news is Nicky survived and is still winning so there’s hope for Dabo….

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[2]
Sep 20, 2021, 4:24 AM
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You can't be serious. Ross has started, Lynn J might as well have, Davis Allen has, bockhorst has, Ladson, ngata, and EJ have played a ton if not started some. This isn't some brand new team of new guys trying to learn to play.

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Ross hasnt played in 18 months and is out of


Sep 20, 2021, 8:49 AM
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position. Lyn J has never sniffed starting and has been beaten out this year. Ladson and Ngata were hurt most of last year and Williams is this year.

Allen may get the start over Galloway this week

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What about the sun? Did it get in anyone's eyes?***

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 3:08 PM
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Breese blocked it out***


Sep 20, 2021, 8:02 PM
Reply



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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[2]
Sep 20, 2021, 5:28 AM
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Doesn't seem to bother Bama when they have massive exodus to the NFL every couple of years. Also, DJ in his 2 starts last year was quick, decisive and extremely accurate with his passes and pushed the ball downfield. Now he is timid, shy and throwing it all over the place. What happened? NIL maybe? A personal problem maybe? OC coaching problem maybe? Last year he was the 18 wheeler barreling down the road. This year he is the deer in the headlights!

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 5:42 AM
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Soooooo……. What about Alabama????? What are they doing that we’re not? I can understand having some drop off, but let’s be honest our Offense has fallen off a cliff. The level of play by our offense is unacceptable. They look completely lost. That’s on coaching. How many times has BV lost almost his whole D and haven’t seen our D fall off a cliff and become one of the worst in the whole country.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:40 AM
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JIMARTI said:

Doesn't seem to bother Bama when they have massive exodus to the NFL every couple of years. Also, DJ in his 2 starts last year was quick, decisive and extremely accurate with his passes and pushed the ball downfield. Now he is timid, shy and throwing it all over the place. What happened? NIL maybe? A personal problem maybe? OC coaching problem maybe? Last year he was the 18 wheeler barreling down the road. This year he is the deer in the headlights!


Agree…one other possible explanation … has DJ had an injury with his arm/shoulder that we are not aware of??? This would also explain some of what we are seeing …

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Bama had 331 total yards Saturday


Sep 20, 2021, 8:52 AM
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92 rushing.

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Yeah, at FLORIDA***


Sep 20, 2021, 12:30 PM
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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:15 AM
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Agree that's part of it. I also question the scheme. It seems every pass is contested, never seem to have guys with any separation.

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Missing a true slot WR has really hurt here


Sep 20, 2021, 8:54 AM
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been a huge part of our offense for years that now isnt there

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And WHY exactly is THAT? Who neglected the position?***


Sep 20, 2021, 3:11 PM
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We have no depth there as Spector apparently


Sep 20, 2021, 8:06 PM
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is the only guy who can really play it. I'm all for seeing us interject some smaller, quicker receivers. Not everyone needs to be a shooting guard

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Totally agree, I just want to know who dropped the ball


Sep 20, 2021, 8:21 PM
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when it came to building out our WR corp with the diversity we needed to run the offense that we won championships with

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They were counting on Spector and he's had a


Sep 20, 2021, 8:32 PM
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very difficult time with Covid. We've never really had more than 1-2 of those guys at a time. Pretty sure the plan was Spector, gradually give Stelleto snaps, and move Taylor in the off season. Some adjustment may be necessary there, though Spector is the only guy who really knows the position

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admit it or not we've been outcoached 3 of the last 4 games


Sep 20, 2021, 7:33 AM
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it is not just one thing, but coaching/playcalling/scheming is a big part of the problem.

Dabo likes to boast about playing 165 players per game, so experience shouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 8:04 AM
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I hear you Striper:

There’s no excuse for Northern Illinois scoring more vs the GT D than us.

There’s no excuse for Kennesaw State scoring more than us vs the GT D.

And there dang sure ain’t no excuse for the cockboys scoring more vs UGA than us.

We have more offensive 4-5 stars than all those teams combined.

Your points are well made but our results are
Making a bigger point.

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Saturday was extremely weird with only 3


Sep 20, 2021, 9:05 AM
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2nd half possessions. Should have scored on 2 of them, but the fumble killed the one.

The lack of big plays is what's obvious. I'm in agreement with many that we need to get Ross back outside. He's not a slot receiver, but he's a big play guy on the outside. I also think Shipley is going to pop some big runs at some point

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 8:20 AM
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My only issue is stretching the field, the defense is just playing in a 10 yard box. It doesn't hurt to throw it down field once in a while. Time wasn't an issue, they just didn't do it.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 8:30 AM
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I agree striperfann

This offense is both new and - well - disjointed. There is a gap between what TE is trying to get them to do and what they can do at the moment. It may slowly resolved itself and click, but it might not.

I also think that the coaching staff got a bit spoiled with being able to have the previous 3 years of being able to call nearly everything and having the horses to do it. This year it is a lot more restricted.

However, I did see sparks forming vs GT. I can see them figuring stuff out. That is the good. It is ugly while they are doing it but it is there.

When did we see this? Isn't most seasons in the past few years seem shaky in the first five? Or a bit more experimental? This is kinda a bit of more an extreme case this year with the new players but it seems like it is taking a LOT to get this group tuned in.

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I actually expect a heavy dose of DJ and


Sep 20, 2021, 9:00 AM
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Shipley this Saturday, like we saw in the second half Saturday. I think Saturday will be an old fashioned type game, because that's where we are offensively right now.

I also expect some personnel changes at TE, possibly slot. Defense is definitely good enough to win this type game if we dont turn it over

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Re: I actually expect a heavy dose of DJ and


Sep 20, 2021, 9:22 AM
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Allen is the most dependable as the other barely blocks and drops key passes. Would also like to see what Lay can do. At his size, at least should be able to get in soneones way occasionally.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link

the only good politician is a dead politician.


With the lack of a true slot receiver


Sep 20, 2021, 9:33 AM
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A two TE look may be an option. Lay is 270 pounds, and basically should be another OT. We haven't run two TE much, we've always looked to spread out defenses. But without a slot to target the middle of the field, that philosophy isnt working so far. If the TE's can provide extra blockers and catch the intermediate passes over the middle, that could also open up the boundaries to the one on one matchups.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 9:35 AM
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If all of these guys hadn't been practicing together every day since the spring then your point would be more valid. I do agree that the coaches have done a poor job recognizing our inexperience and adjusting accordingly.

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I'm sure that's a factor, but i don't think it's even the


Sep 20, 2021, 9:36 AM
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biggest factor. The Alabama offense just replaced like four or five 1st round draft picks and is doing just fine. Florida lost almost their entire passing game from last season and is doing just fine as a dominant rushing team this year. I hate Dan Mullen, but he's a great offensive mind and does an excellent job at adapting his offense to his players.

Even when we were winning big i used to complain to my buddy about our offense because there were plenty of times when Trevor was struggling to find his rhythm and it just felt like we could never scheme something open for him. Almost any other good offense you watch gets guys wide open over the middle of the field or out in the flat at some point, and ours always seemed reliant on tight window throws into tight coverage and just beating the opposition with superior talent. Right now it feels like nothing has changed except we don't have the superior talent and execution needed to do that. But even that feels weird to say because we absolutely do have vastly superior talent to what GT was putting on the field and we still couldn't move the ball with it. So just what level of talent is necessary for this offense to function? Do we need a future top 10 pick at QB to have a decent passing game???

That's the really concerning part. Well that and we also don't have a good enough running game to lean on and take some of the pressure off of our QB.

We need some answers very soon or we will find ourselves staring at another ugly loss - maybe as soon as this weekend.

2021 white level member flag link

Bama ran for 92 yards Saturday


Sep 20, 2021, 9:43 AM
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pretty sure that wasn't planned. Florida ran for 240 against a defense returning 8 starters. Really dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides. People were anointing Bama as a juggernaut after beating a hapless Miami team and Mercer. Saturday showed some clear weaknesses. Not as pronounced as ours at this point, but clearly they aren't unbeatable

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Yeah, Bama did not run the ball well.


Sep 20, 2021, 11:14 AM
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But they still managed to score 31 points and beat #11 on the road in a very difficult environment. They also rolled up 44 points and over 500 yards against Miami in a game that was 27-0 midway through the 2nd quarter. We just had 284 yards and 14 points against Georgia Tech two games after putting up 183 yards and 3 points against Georgia.

Bama is having some growing pains but still functioning well enough offensively to win games against quality opponents. That is not what is happening at Clemson right now.

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Two fortuitous PI calls really helped them


Sep 20, 2021, 12:53 PM
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The second half Florida really stuffed them. Should have won the game honestly.

GT isnt close to Florida as an opponent. Our offense has major issues as of now and everyone is grasping for answers. But the most obvious solution for us is for the offense to begin to function as a unit. With 9 starters in different positions, that's the challenge

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 9:38 AM
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Well Nick Sabin sure has figured out how to get newbies to play together as a unit. Hasn't he?

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92 yards rushing Sat shows they have some OL issues as well


Sep 20, 2021, 9:44 AM
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they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry

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Re: 92 yards rushing Sat shows they have some OL issues as well


Sep 20, 2021, 1:06 PM
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And that’s our point. Clemson rushed the ball 23 times against GA for 2 yards.

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Re: 92 yards rushing Sat shows they have some OL issues as well


Sep 20, 2021, 1:06 PM
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striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


And that’s our point. Clemson rushed the ball 23 times against GA for 2 yards.

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Re: 92 yards rushing Sat shows they have some OL issues as well


Sep 20, 2021, 1:06 PM
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striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


And that’s our point. Clemson rushed the ball 23 times against GA for 2 yards.

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Re: 92 yards rushing Sat shows they have some OL issues as well


Sep 20, 2021, 1:06 PM
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striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


striperfan said:

they could not run the ball on Florida. 3 yards a carry


And that’s our point. Clemson rushed the ball 23 times against GA for 2 yards.

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Dogs defense is better than Fla


Sep 20, 2021, 1:14 PM
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both Dabo and Elliott said after the game they abandoned the run. They owned the mistake. 7 sacks didnt help.

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Dogs defense is better than Fla


Sep 20, 2021, 1:14 PM
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both Dabo and Elliott said after the game they abandoned the run. They owned the mistake. 7 sacks didnt help.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 10:11 AM
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I agree with this assessment for the most part. However, there is something that just doesn't pass the sniff or eye test with this offense. For me, it boils down to coaching. The talents' too good to play this bad in spite of the issues you mention. Not blaming Dabo, he's proved to be one of college's best but his O staff is highly questionable at this point. I hope they prove me wrong!!

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What's missing is chunk plays


Sep 20, 2021, 10:23 AM
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that's what we've grown used to. Some can be scheme, but we threw twice down field on Sat and both throws were missed. None of us know whether DJ made bad throws or the WR ran the wrong route. We need the chunk plays, and I'm of the opinion by and large it's players who make those, not scheme. The 50/50 balls we've made so many on are players making plays. ETN's long runs were him making plays. Coaches job is to put guys in position to make them, but they have to make them.

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Re: What's missing is chunk plays


Sep 20, 2021, 1:11 PM
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Agree for sure chunk plays are at least one thing that is missing...

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Chunk plays are a huge part of our offense


Sep 20, 2021, 1:18 PM
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have been for 10 years. If we do not find a way to make them, it's going to be a slog all year. Chunk plays loosen everything up

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So what you're saying is we lack playmakers who can


Sep 20, 2021, 3:14 PM
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overcome our remedial offensive scheme?

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Right now players are not making plays on


Sep 20, 2021, 8:11 PM
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offense. That's pretty obvious.

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Is it a lack of players or a lack of plays?***


Sep 20, 2021, 8:56 PM
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No. Offense looks the same as it did vs OSU.***

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 2:01 PM
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2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link

No, no, no.... the problem is that the coaches fail


Sep 20, 2021, 3:24 PM
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to consult Tigernet and social media for answers! They're too stubborn to go to the wealth of information that comes from people who never played a down of tackle football or never played past high school; to people that sit on their arses and armchair quarterback dozens of football games a weekend, and who have their own fantasy football teams. Instead, they rely upon their years of coaching experience, film study, and consultations with each other and the players themselves. Who can win like that?? Clearly they're trying to do too much on their own. They're neglecting the valuable wisdom and experience found online and on social media. There's just no excuse for that.

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Weren't Ladson and Ngata starters LAST year?***


Sep 20, 2021, 3:34 PM
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Re: Weren't Ladson and Ngata starters LAST year?***


Sep 20, 2021, 4:01 PM
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No, Amari and Powell were....N'Gata and Ladson were injured most of the year, getting very very limited snaps.

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So Ladson and Ngata didn't start vs GT last year?***


Sep 20, 2021, 5:28 PM
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You were out maneuvered…


Sep 20, 2021, 6:28 PM
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Let it go.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


So that's a yes then?***


Sep 20, 2021, 6:57 PM
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Oh, the point of your post was that they had a start last season…


Sep 20, 2021, 7:35 PM
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against GT?

You got punked, lol.




2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


I got punked? Good Lord, what does that even mean?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:45 PM
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Neither of you can answer my question but I got punked...ooooh, that's rich

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I’m not fielding questions…

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 7:48 PM
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I’m just a casual observer of your exchange.

You - 0
Him - 1

You’ll get him next time.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


No offense, but who the #### cares what you think? Who


Sep 20, 2021, 7:51 PM
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made you the big Jello Sheriff of this thread?

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I get it…


Sep 20, 2021, 7:55 PM
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Losing hurts. You’ll be back though, better than ever.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Sir, I am going to need you to set down your beverage

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 7:57 PM
Reply

and lay on your stomach.






2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link

Oh good, he finally got some back-up, where are the rest of


Sep 20, 2021, 8:16 PM
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the pecker-tooters? Don't leave him hanging out there like that

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 6:26 PM
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Now explain the tOSU game.

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Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 7:30 PM
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That's a viable excuse for "not great" sort of play. We're seeing some pretty awful results so far. This is also happening even though last year didn't count against eligibility. Frankly our offensive line has never been considered great at college footballs highest level. It's a problem which has gone unaddressed because it hasn't hampered success to this point. The OL not a good spot for us though and that goes back for some time.

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Since we lost so many important players on offense

[1]
Sep 20, 2021, 7:57 PM
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including two who were drafted in the first round of the draft (both generational players who hold many records between them), why did we only muster 28 points against Ohio State in the playoffs?

This was an Ohio State team that gave up 52 points to Alabama, 35 points to Indiana, and 27 to Rutgers.

If you are going to let all of last year’s talent leaving be an excuse for this year’s team, then all of that talent should also have been more successful than it was. Unless, of course, we have some coaching issues.

Also, I don’t understand why new players should be such an issue since we pride ourselves on building depth. Except for the true freshmen, all of these guys have played a lot. Coaches should have anticipated departures and planned ahead for this year.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: Since we lost so many important players on offense


Sep 20, 2021, 8:10 PM
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1) Those games happen. See the 2018 NC game where Alabama only scored 16.
2) New players aren’t as big of an issue BECAUSE of our staff. See 2019 LSU. Built for 1 season, not the long haul. Clemson is built for the long haul.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Offensive struggles explained?


Sep 20, 2021, 8:24 PM
Reply

This is correct. The most important skill positions are quarterback, running back, and boundary receivers(Ross is not Ross) . These guys are all new, combine that with a new OLine and we’ve got a mess.

One of our biggest losses is Amari Rodgers. Really missing that guy right now

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Amari got separation with his quickness


Sep 20, 2021, 8:40 PM
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you had to account for him, just like Renfrow, Scott, Humphries and others. All our WR now are 6'3-6'4. They have good speed and size, but not that first step quickness that gets you open on the slants and skinny posts that have been money for years. Hopefully Spector is back soon

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