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110%er [3636]
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Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 12, 2025, 5:48 PM
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Genesis 12:
Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Acts 7
Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. 3 ‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 12, 2025, 7:04 PM
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Nope. Don't see one.
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 12, 2025, 7:33 PM
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Hmm. That's a pretty tough one.
It might be that Stephen is saying God appeared to Abram in Ur, and Gen 12 says God appeared to Abram later, in Haran.
If that's the contradiction you are suggesting, it is interesting the in the Book of Jubilees, which Stephen could very well have had access to, God appeared to Abram in Ur, supporting Stephen's account, vs. the older Gen account, possibly written post-Exile, in the 2nd Temple Period.
Jub 12:22
“Get thee from thy country, (Ur, at the time) and from thy kindred, and from the house of thy father unto a land which I will show thee.”
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110%er [3636]
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Ultimate Tiger [33073]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
May 13, 2025, 12:26 AM
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Right,
But I'm not sure the question is whether God is omnipresent or not, but rather, where was Abram, when the omnipresent God spoke to him.
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Clemson Icon [26045]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 13, 2025, 10:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: Can you spot the contradiction? ] |
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Had the same first thought. Both accounts can be true, as there are several reasons Stephen might have said it that way. At the moment of your execution, recite the preamble to the Declaration perfectly: is it inalienable, or unalienable? You need to get that right, because if you dont, a couple hundred years from now more advanced thinkers will see that and call it a contradiction between you and Jefferson, and conclude both stories are fake.
Stephen was making a point, not taking a test, and he told the story correctly. Luke either did or didnt know Gen intimately (probably gentile), and in either case would have recited Stephen accurately.
What remains is a person being executed over a factual event, not a philosophical belief or a literary recitation. Stephen knew the facts over which he was being executed. Any excuse to consider this part of Acts is a good one.
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 13, 2025, 2:26 PM
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Yea, I guess it depends on how you define inerrancy, or if you even believe that at all.
The question in my mind is at what point does an “error” prove that the Bible is not divinely inspired?
It’s such a complex question with so many layers.
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 13, 2025, 2:46 PM
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Sure. I mean, if Luke quoted Stephen correctly, there is no error at all. If Stephen misspoke on a minor item, so what? It wasn't his easiest day. There are lots of errors in the bible, if accurately quoting what someone says in error is an error. Job is full of them. And David: 'Somebody go get that little minx and bring her up here.'
That being the case, the story of Stephen's execution is one item of evidence for Jesus's resurrection. If one doesnt believe those events happened, obviously there is no divine inspiration. If they did, one can then decide how to view the role God played in bringing that story to us. One cant be asked to believe it on the basis of it being inspired (circular reasoning). Other way around, I think.
Once one decides the accounts are truly reported, I dont think there is an objective way to decide whether God dictated every word or merely motivated people to write as best they could. Either extreme seems improbable, but if the former is 1 and the latter is 10, I would put myself at about 7 or 8. But can be talked up or down the scale.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [20263]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 13, 2025, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you spot the contradiction? ] |
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At what point does an error prove the Bible is not Divinely Inspired?
With all of the prophecies that are fulfilled - and verified - at this point it would take the anti-christ to never show for the Bible to be stamped "Not Divinely Inspired".
Are does prophecy fulfillment not weigh in for you on this matter?
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 8:30 AM
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CUintulsa®, like I said, so many layers to this. The bible is set up to be the perfect word of god, so when mistakes like this are uncovered, what does that mean?
I've asked this question multiple times not just on this board, and it's hard to get an answer other than "I just have faith" when you really dig in. If there are mistakes like you admit, what makes the bible the word of god? Jesus never used the word bible, he mentioned a few old testament stories and quoted from the Old Testament, but never alluded to any kind of scripture coming after him.
So the belief that the bible is the word of god, is a much later tradition that didn't even exist until hundreds of years later. So like I've said, when someone says they have faith in Jesus and believe that the bible is god's word, they are not following Jesus, they are following a man made religion. There is no reason to believe the bible is god's word, if there is I'm all ears...
HuntClub®, that brings me to your statement that it's the fulfilled prophecies that prove it is divine. Another complex issue with multiple layers. Most of these prophecies about Jesus are vague at best.
"Out of Egypt I called my son". How easy would it be for Matthew to say they fled to Egypt and came back and this fulfilled a prophecy? Not only that, but the context of the passage in the Old Testament has nothing to with Jesus, but Israel fleeing Egypt as a nation.
Another one is Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a colt. So this is a fulfilled prophecy because one person wrote in one book that it happened?
There are lots of these so called fulfilled prophecies that we can break down like this and see that they don't really hold up.
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 11:42 AM
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"The bible is set up to be the perfect word of god, so when mistakes like this are uncovered, what does that mean?"
By whom? I think I was pretty clear in saying that one cannot be asked to believe the bible due to it being 'inspired', or 'perfect'. Circular reasoning: "The bible is true because it is inspired, which makes it true." If someone, somewhere, has said that, your argument is only with them.
Your Stephen 'contradiction' is an example. Stephen, under stress, maybe names a slightly different place than Gen. Luke accurately records this. There is no "mistake". Your response is to argue against some definition of 'perfect' that I did not mention and therefore cant defend.
All of that is fine, between us. This has been a cordial discussion. But I cant address a circular argument I didnt make. If Jesus is alive, that is the starting point to discuss inspiration, because if He is not there was no divine inspiration.
Why are you starting arguments about a concept that is, in your mind, nothing? And with whom do you intend to start them?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 12:36 PM
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I’m not arguing. All I’ve done is make observations and ask questions.
So Jesus being resurrected means the book of Esther was divinely inspired?
Or it means god divinely inspired Paul to write that women shouldn’t speak in church?
Like I said it’s a complex issue with multiple layers.
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 1:21 PM
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Stephen was your example, I showed there is no 'mistake', and you now shift to something else, which also have answers you are not interested in. That is arguing, and it seems to be what you want to do. Figure out the one thing you want to say, say it, and defend it. Until then, carry on.
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 2:06 PM
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You didn’t show there was no mistake, you just said the mistake doesn’t matter. I tend to agree.
It doesn’t prove anything but that there is in fact a mistake in the Bible…
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 14, 2025, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can you spot the contradiction? ] |
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Also I think it’s extremely interesting that the Bible translators are accused of trying to harmonize these passages. What does that say about inspiration and the translation of the text throughout history?
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
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May 16, 2025, 7:18 AM
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???
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
May 22, 2025, 6:53 PM
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Been over a week and I still have not found it.
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110%er [3636]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
May 23, 2025, 9:11 AM
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Genesis said god spoke to Abraham in Haran.
Acts says it was before Abraham went to Haran in Mesopotamia.
The Bible is full of these little mistakes.
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National Champion [7204]
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Re: Can you spot the contradiction?
May 23, 2025, 12:13 PM
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Oh that.
God had originally called Abraham while he was living in Ur (cf. Ge 15:7; Ne 9:7), then repeated that call at Harran (see notes on Ge 11:31—12:1–3).
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