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Orange Blooded [3496]
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Serious question about politics
Apr 15, 2021, 10:50 AM
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Can someone explain why the following two issues are political issues. It really blows my mind why things become political when they shouldn't be.
1. Why does anyone think that we shouldn't have a better border between here and Mexico? There are places where people can just walk over and enter the country. Why is this involved in politics? Would you leave your door open for people to come in your house? Do you think that everyone coming across the border has good intentions? Shouldn't we protect the people that live here and pay taxes?
2. Why is requiring an ID to vote considered racist? Doesn't everyone have the ability to get an ID? The banks, liquor stores, and other institutions require IDs and aren't called names. Isn't voting integrity important?
For the record I don't get involved in politics and I truly hate every politician with all of my being. I think they are all liars and worthless piles of crap. But it amazes me that anyone would disagree with those issues. To me those issues should be no brainers and not even discussed. But I also know that when Trump wants something strongly or any other ### there will be a group of people that openly defy.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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RH, explain where this post went off the rails.
Apr 15, 2021, 10:52 AM
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"Politics" three doors down from "serious" is as far as I could get.
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Oculus Spirit [97732]
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Re: Serious question about politics
Apr 15, 2021, 10:54 AM
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1) Because we need their cheap labor to do the jobs Americans won't do, so you can get a cheaper house, builders make more profits, you can afford more house, produce is harvested cheaper, grocery prices are lower, and their families back in their home country prosper more, etc.
2) That's a contrived problem.
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All-In [26514]
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So they’re not getting $15 min wage?
Apr 15, 2021, 10:57 AM
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Do they know that?
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Oculus Spirit [97732]
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No, there will be no $15 minimum wage, I promise
Apr 15, 2021, 11:07 AM
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They'll print (more) money before they do that.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Hey now, stay on topic. You're talking economics. How many
Apr 15, 2021, 11:16 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious question about politics ] |
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politicians think about that before choosing a position, I don't know, but it is interesting to think of a left side politician embracing that reasoning.
But you make a good point, one that would be fun to unpack if we had the time and beer to do it. The reasoning you put forth would favor an almost open border, if not actually open. Then one might say that that idea works on the basis you propose only if everyone coming in is a net payer (we can't provide health care for everyone in Guatemala). "Net payer" can include not only the taxes the immigrant pays, but the taxes on profits the employer earns.
To ensure that this is the case, immigration has to be controlled on some basis, whether simple numbers based on an estimate of how many can be employed, or a requirement that a job be guaranteed by an employer. Controlled immigration? Gasp.
Then there is the minimum wage discussion, and how a $15 - $20 minimum wage would impact the need for immigrant workers. (For those who deny that the runaway debt spending is causing inflation, consider the fact that one of the reasons the $15 minimum wage idea is not as controversial as it was 5 years ago is that it's not the huge jump it was then. Waffle House, of all places, will start you at $10 and get you to $15 pretty quickly.) The idea to provide a "livable wage" for the lowest possible wage limits the number of immigrants needed. [Edit: I see you addressed that above.]
Lots of back and forth on that, and a lot of ideological sacred cows will be slaughtered.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [8988]
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Re: Serious question about politics
Apr 15, 2021, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious question about politics ] |
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there are no jobs that citizens will not do, you just have to compete within the labor market and pay a higher rate
it doesnt always translate to cheaper goods either, but that is what they tell you so that you will accept replacement workers and lower pay
imagine what a citizen would be making IF corporations had to compete for citizen labor
we should be rioting , but not for police behavior, politicians/corporate are putting yall back in chains
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Serious question about politics
Apr 15, 2021, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Serious question about politics ] |
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1) Because we need their cheap labor to do the jobs Americans won't do, so you can get a cheaper house, builders make more profits, you can afford more house, produce is harvested cheaper, grocery prices are lower, and their families back in their home country prosper more, etc.
2) That's a contrived problem.
So democrats get more voters. There, fixed it for you.
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All-In [26968]
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I think the politicians often want the issue,
Apr 15, 2021, 10:55 AM
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not the solution.
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Oculus Spirit [97732]
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Yep. That's exactly it.
Apr 15, 2021, 11:05 AM
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There are so few real and important issues in the US we have to make them up, politicize them, just so we can fight about it and differentiate yourself to win votes. Then the real and important issues, we either ignore, or agree on and ignore, or agree on them, ignore them, then argue about them anyway.
Our debt is a good one. It's a problem. All caused by Democrats and entitlements. Dems say it's military spending. Yet no matter what, nothing changes. Republicans will spend lavishly on the military, increase entitlements even or cut taxes, and dems will just print money. But NO ONE cuts spending. A spending cut is a vote lost and no reelection.
Illegal immigration is another. Everyone agrees it's a problem. Dems say it's necessary because the immigrants are poor, or fleeing prosecution. They just want a better life and want to become Americans. Republicans say they're sucking our resources dry and changing our culture. Meanwhile, Congress won't touch any reforms, and the Presidents (both parties) won't even enforce current laws. Why?
Because in reality, functionally, everyone agrees they're necessary and beneficial, and we depend on them.
Our trade deficit is a problem. We import too much and export too little. It's a massive problem. However, both parties support "free trade". Even Trump comes in hot as hades on the issue, says he will enact tariffs, then enacts weak tariffs on the things we actually still make in the US, leaving all the stuff we depend on foreign cheap labor....cheap.
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Orange Blooded [3496]
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I appreciate your answers............
Apr 15, 2021, 11:29 AM
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I know that we use them for labor. And I also know that some people look at them as future voters. But I look at them as being a drain on health care and a danger to society in general. I realize there are some of them that will just want to have a better life. But I would rather have none than have a few bad apples reaking havoc. I think we need a strong border and some sort of system that allows a few ever so often. I really feel for those border states that really feel the burden of them crossing.
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Oculus Spirit [97732]
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I happen to have very intimate knowledge on the matter
Apr 15, 2021, 12:59 PM
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They come here to work, make money, and send as much as possible home to their families. We leverage their cheaper labor and harder work, and they leverage out dollar sending it home. VERY few have any plans to become citizens, or even stay in the US. Most plan to make and save enough to retire back in Mexico or wherever. Every single illegal worker I've encountered in my job, 100% literally, have been sending money back home to someone. Parents, wife, kids usually. Some come to the US and return frequently. Some end up stranded in the US as their parents die, or their wife runs off with another man in Mexico or something, but generally, this is the reason. I've never known a refugee, fleeing crime or whatever, except literally ONE. And that was Cuba.
And they can live on $100 a week here in the US in poverty no American can replicate, and send the other $800 they earn back home. I've seen 12 sharing a single hotel room, carpooling, and living on as little as possible here in the US to maximize what they can send home.
Even had a guy from Cuba once. He escaped to the US on a raft. Lived here, worked, and then his wife and son were still in Cuba. His son went on a school trip to Spain in high school. He left the group, hopped a plane to Miami from Spain, and then lived with his father, as a refugee. That's the only refugee I've known. Last month had a lady from Venezuela who was working cleaning hotel rooms in the US. She fled Venezuela, where her husband was a DOCTOR. She was making more cleaning hotel rooms in the US than her husband who stayed in Venezuela, who was a physician. She was sending money back to him.
I'm not making this up. I can give names, addresses, phone numbers, passports, have statements, these are real examples. Have many more. Can give Western Union receipts. Lady who cleans our house, she supports both her parents in Mexico. They're in bad health. Her husband left her, and she had three children. She plans to return to Mexico some day after saving some more. Probably in 10 years or maybe less.
The portrayal by Trump was WAY off. I agree it's a problem though, but not for the xenophobic reason he gives. But what's above is why they come here. And the reason they do is we pay them more than they could ever earn in Mexico/Guatemala/El Salvador/Honduras/etc. Heck, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Colombia, Guyana, Bolivia, Peru.....talked to families of people here in all of those countries, from all of those countries. Kenya, India, UAE even. India. Their labor, and our acceptance of it, is better in the US than anywhere else on Earth. They provide us labor that's better, and cheaper, than we could ever afford ourselves. That's the benefit. The downside is they take low paying jobs that Americans SHOULD be doing. High school kids......those jobs are now done by older people, or illegals.
And this isn't based on 5, 10, 20, or even 50 examples. It's based on hundreds of examples over 2 decades. Every story is generally consistent. No one came to the US fleeing prosecution, war, or whatever. No one came to the US to become a citizen. No one comes with plans to stay forever and start a new life. There's BS from both sides here. The vast majority are not criminals, and even those who were criminals in Mexico, are hard workers here. And they're not refugees, other than refugees from poverty. They come here because without insulin their mother will die and they have no way to afford it, even working, in Honduras. Make it to the US, mom gets her insulin, and dad gets that surgery, and your kids get to attend the university.
But for the sleeze in Washington DC, they're a means to deflate labor costs in the US to keep inflation low so they can spend more debt buying votes. For business owners, they're increased profits. For everyone they're a reason you can buy a bigger house. They keep our food cheaper. This is why nothing has been done, or will be done. In Washington anyway. If they disappeared tomorrow our economy would be in BIG trouble.
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All-In [34113]
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All-TigerNet [13141]
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Re: Absolutely right.
Apr 15, 2021, 11:52 AM
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They lowered taxes and brought on the strongest economy ever, and lowest unemployment in my lifetime. But I know that’s nothing to you. No free ###.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Absolutely right.
Apr 15, 2021, 12:00 PM
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Lowered taxes for some, not all, and blew up the debt for all of us taxpayers (you are of course likely unaffected in that regard).
Strongest economy ever, cool, let us know how you measure that.
Long story short, two years of Republican control and all they can come up with is a debt-exploding tax cut? Nothing else whatsoever?
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CU Medallion [50635]
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when did they have 60 botes in the senate***
Apr 15, 2021, 12:17 PM
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All-In [34113]
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Re: when did they have 60 botes in the senate***
Apr 15, 2021, 1:31 PM
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I have no idea. Is this a trick question? You know, don't you. You're just not telling. You want me to figure it out but you already know.
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CU Medallion [50635]
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you know they didn't control squat with the filibuster in
Apr 15, 2021, 1:40 PM
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place
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All-In [34113]
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Re: you know they didn't control squat with the filibuster
Apr 15, 2021, 2:20 PM
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The idea being that Republicans can't get anything done without 60 votes? Then how have the Dems managed to pass legislation this year?
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CU Medallion [50635]
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financial things thru reconcilliation***
Apr 15, 2021, 2:22 PM
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: financial things thru reconcilliation***
Apr 15, 2021, 3:33 PM
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The trump tax cut was passed through budget reconciliation, as well as his attempt to repeal the ACA.
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Legend [15216]
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The voter ID thing in GA is weird because they threw out
Apr 15, 2021, 10:56 AM
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a ton of mail-in votes due to signatures not matching.
So, now, all you have to do is get a free ID #, which anyone in the state can get, to put on your mail-in ballot (or SSN if you had one) instead of the signature match.
They're actually making it where more mail in votes (which are heavy democrats) will be counted.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Serious question about politics
Apr 15, 2021, 1:06 PM
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1. I've never met anyone who wants an open border. And if anyone who does is probably quite naive. The issue gets into practicality and maintaining humane behavior. Building a flimsy wall isn't practical. It's just costly and symbolic.
We need some better looks at policy and paths to citizenship, having tough talks with Mexico about their role, and holding people in America accountable when they contribute to the problem(met plenty of Build a Wall types who are okay hiring day workers for cash under the table to save themselves money).
Yes, bad people want to come here. But hurting good, innocent people to get to them isn't the answer. It never is in any scenario.
2. Requiring an ID isn't inherently racist nor should it be racist. In a perfect system, it makes sense and should be done. The problem is the motive behind many people who want it. They know it can make voting more difficult for a certain legitimate segment of the population, and that's the problem.
I mean, I don't hate all politicians or think they're all liars or worthless. But you're probably not far off...
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All-TigerNet [10892]
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Why do you think liars and worthless piles of crap should be
Apr 15, 2021, 1:19 PM
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able to determine who can and can't live in a particular geographic area?
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