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110%er [3684]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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If you have something to say regarding this subject then say it.***
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:58 AM
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Letterman [158]
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Re: If you have something to say regarding this subject then say it.***
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Jun 28, 2025, 10:14 AM
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That’s what he’s doing, why are you acting weird?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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I'm not called to testify of Jesus to internet articles.
Jun 29, 2025, 12:18 PM
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If someone wants to take the claims for their own take on what the Bible says I'll be happy to search God's Word and my heart and try and see why there seems to be a contradiction.
Have a little respect here and try to say what's in your heart rather than posting links. Show me the contradiction.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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Really good article - spot on. To me it's clear that the very idea
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Jun 28, 2025, 10:52 AM
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of a creator who created a universe he knew right from the start would be filled with all sorts of things he despised and that would make him angry and sad, whether he had to or because he chose to, and therefore required salvation in the first place is comically flawed from the start. That is my belief, my opinion. Many good, very intelligent people disagree.
It's also clear to me that those people typically accept one of those versions of salvation which hinges on the divine authority of what we now call The Bible. So, when these obvious contradictions and problems arise, they are forced to either ignore it, or come up with explanations that explain it all away in order to maintain their faith. All too often, a rational pursuit of the truth is abandoned and replaced with the objective of defending one's chosen faith.
Assuming one believes there is a creator or "God", it all ultimately goes back to one's concept of God. The one we get in the Bible reflects how ancient men saw powerful men; as wise but powerful, judgemental, often extremely vengeful warrior kings. Throw in some heavenly mystical powers and a dash of love and justice and you've got the God of the old testament. A Jew called Jesus came along and some Jews believed he was the prophesied messiah. His following grew, especially after his crucifiction and resurrection. Thus the beliefs of salvation through Jesus as Christ began, which gave believers a way to be saved from eternity in hell. For some reason, God did not just forgive us, he required a blood sacrifice (as was practiced by ancient Jews). It was God's fix for something in his creation that he despised; a sign of his love and grace.
It's clear to me that there's something bad wrong with that story, and that concept of God, and as it relates to your post, the whole idea of salvation. But that's just my opinion.
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Ring of Honor [22591]
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Did you have an extra cup of coffee this morning? Regardless TU
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:03 AM
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For articulating your thoughts.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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LOL! Actually I did!***
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:18 AM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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Letterman [158]
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Re: You sure are proud of what you've reckoned about God.
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Jun 29, 2025, 5:04 PM
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I've read a few of your posts now, I'm not sure how you can say that without a hint of irony.
You sure do act like you've got it all figured out. In fact, only one of you seems to be trying to correct people here.
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TigerNet Elite [72676]
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So what do you think happens when you die?
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Jun 29, 2025, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to Really good article - spot on. To me it's clear that the very idea ] |
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Curious.
I saw two hangings this week and watched one guy shoot himself in the head at a park. We tried to get him to stop, but after about :20 he did it….so I am a bit troubled by death here lately. Lots of questions running through my mind. Especially when I wake up in the middle of the night.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: So what do you think happens when you die?
Jun 29, 2025, 2:17 PM
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geeze man, that's awful, I hope you are surrounded by support. That sounds rough.
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TigerNet Elite [72676]
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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I think your body dies and your soul remains with God where it always
Jun 29, 2025, 11:21 PM
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was and always will be.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:39 AM
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Send a copy to your pastor. He would appreciate it.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 12:13 PM
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This is a weird obsession of yours.
Are we supposed to care what a pastor thinks?
They aren’t special
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 1:53 PM
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Not an obsession. A while back I pointed out to Big Dog that he has the beliefs he posts on here, yet he goes to a fundamental Church. In that conversation, I said he was living a double life. He said he was not. I told him that I bet he would not tell his pastor what he posts on here. He asked me what he had posted on here that he would not want his pastor to know he had said. Now I point out to him what he says on here that he would not want his pastor knowing he said.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 2:52 PM
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I’m aware of this exchange, you following him around and repeating it is weird
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 7:07 PM
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He says he doesn’t know which posts his preacher would have a problem with. I just point them out to him. I follow every post in the religious forum.
I think it’s weird someone could attend a fundamental church and disagree in secret with most of what the church they attend believes.
That would be like me putting on UGA crap, attending their games, and acting like I was a fan of those b……s.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 8:54 PM
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Do you actually think everyone in your church actually believes it like you do? You have no idea.
Many people attend for many reasons. I don't go regularly, but I most of our family is religious, so I attend sometimes. I went for years after I stopped believing due to what can basically amount to peer pressure.
Your UGA example isn't as weird as you make it out to be. If you lived in and were surrounded by them, it's not that uncommon for people to dress and act the part. It can be fun.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:54 PM
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I live in Athens. Nothing fun about faking being a leg humper.
The vast majority of people I go to church with sare my soteriological values.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:57 PM
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It's the same concept as different religions, you'd probably love being a leg humper if you were born into it. It's mostly chance.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:02 AM
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I was. Family was Ga fans.
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Letterman [158]
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Nice, we understand anecdotes then***
Jun 29, 2025, 8:08 AM
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Clemson Icon [26186]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 2:38 PM
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Interesting. Paul once said that if a person is explaining the Gospel, let them.
We have all individually chosen eternity apart from God, deceived to join a rebellion begun before we were created. God paid the ransom for return, something the Enemy can do nothing about. The choice therefore remains with us to return from the rebellion.
Hearing someone try to explain away that truth is as illuminating of it as hearing someone affirm it, like listening to a moon landing denier. Go right ahead.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 6:47 PM
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You've basically set this up so that if someone addresses the contradictions, they are "explaining away truth," and if they don't, you win anyway. That's not really how arguments work.
There's a reason the moon landing is in history books and the resurrection isn't. One has actual evidence you can verify to back up an extraordinary claim (landing on the moon), the other doesn't. Moon landing deniers ignore documented facts. You're asking us to ignore documented contradictions in the text itself.
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Clemson Icon [26186]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 6:58 PM
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"... the other doesn't." As untrue a comment as one will find anywhere. Believe what you want about Jesus, but the evidence is there, which is why attempts to explain it away reveal it to an open mind.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 8:51 PM
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The evidence for the resurrection is testimonial from decades-later believers who didn't even claim to be eyewitnesses, not the contemporaneous, independently documented, physical evidence we have for the moon landing. Roman historians documented far lesser events in detail, but somehow missed the dead rising and walking around Jerusalem.
That's why one has universal historical consensus and the other requires faith. One can be independently confirmed through multiple sources and methods, the other cannot. So yes, 'evidence' exists, but you're falsely equating being a moon landing skeptic with nonbelievers. It's not even close to the same thing.
If anything, claiming supernatural events happened based on decades-later testimonial evidence puts you in the same category as ancient alien theorists or people who believe in miraculous healings at other religious sites.
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Clemson Icon [26186]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:35 AM
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That is way misinformed. If that is your understanding, you need to read up on this subject.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
Jun 29, 2025, 8:32 AM
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I suppose if going by standard historical methodology instead of apologetic arguments makes me 'misinformed,' then sure. But saying 'you're wrong, go read more' isn't actually addressing any of the specific points I raised about contemporaneous documentation and independent verification, none of which you've shown to be factually incorrect.
If you think there's evidence for the resurrection that meets the same standards as evidence for the moon landing, then present it instead of just saying 'nuh uh.' Otherwise you're confirming that religious claims require different evidentiary standards.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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Millions of good, highly intelligent people, like CU, share those beliefs.
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Jun 29, 2025, 10:14 AM
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Any beliefs any of us hold about God or spiritual matters requires a healthy dose of speculation and reasoning based on factors other than hard evidence, and requires an equally healthy dose of faith. By no means does that mean those people (including me) are wrong; it just demonstrates the real truth, which is that none of us can claim to know based on any purely objective examination of the facts. Faith alone is not illegitimate, can be powerful, and should be respected; but to the extent it is based on fact, logic, and reasoning, it is very much open to criticism.
Bottom line though, none of us knows, and we all should remember and respect that, and quit acting as if we do.
Add: I agree that evidence for the moon landing is very different than evidence of the ressurection.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Millions of good, highly intelligent people, like CU, share those beliefs.
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:31 PM
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“ Bottom line though, none of us knows, and we all should remember and respect that, and quit acting as if we do.”
I agree just pointing out the difference in evidence
I don’t fault anyone for believing, if you are convinced you are convinced.
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Clemson Icon [26186]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
Jun 29, 2025, 4:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bible contradictions on salvation ] |
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If you are willing to discuss this, I would like to highlight a few of your points. You have no greater supporter of your right to your conclusions than me. However, I believe you mischaracterize the nature of the Christian belief:
- You brought up evidence, indicating there is only "testimonial evidence from decades later and no eyewitnesses."
- You rightly differentiate historical evidence from apologetics, but I am not understanding what you are saying there.
- You characterize all testimony as equal, placing the Gospel in the same realm as a Whitley Strieber (abducted by aliens)
- You characterize faith as believing without evidence.
1. There is much more evidence than testimonial. However, some minimal facts regarding the testimony:
- the earliest NT documents by Paul were written in about 47 AD, 15-ish years after the events.
- those letters contain creeds (stating the execution/resurrection) that are dated to 35 AD, 2 years after.
- Paul records a visit to Jerusalem to meet with the 12 (eyewitnesses) to confirm the truth of those creeds.
- Luke, who was with Paul, corroborates that meeting.
- Peter corroborates that meeting.
Atheist and Christian historians agree with this. Therefore, testimony of the Gospel events by eyewitnesses dates to the time of the events. And that is on a few of Paul's letters: we haven't yet discussed the 4 Gospel accounts.
2. I think you know that apologetics is merely the conversational tool of supporting one's positions, while evidence is another matter. Yes, I can and do say that the claim of 'little evidence for the Gospel accounts' is wrong. Yes, I understand that I have to support my claim of evidence, just as you have to support a claim of 'little evidence' ("I haven't seen any" is support only for "I don't know of any"). I am happy to provide that evidence if you like. I can't do it here (too much of it), but am willing to make it available, at my cost if you like.
A string of whatabouts is not examination of evidence, but is the favorite tool of the moonwalk denier. I'm not saying you do that: I'm just observing the content of this board.
3. Even if all the evidence for the NT was testimonial, it is not the same as alien abductees. Abductions, Joseph Smith and Mohammed are all testimonial, but they lack even a small percentage of the corroboration and evidence one would need. The NT has it. Again, am willing to provide it.
4. Superstition is believing something without evidence. Stevie Wonder, a Christian, wrote a song about it to make that clear. Faith, instead, is the trust choice one makes based on what he/she knows to be true. If my wife is inexplicably 5 hours late coming home, I have no thought of her fidelity. I can't prove where she was, but from much evidence I know who she is, so I know where she wasn't. Faith. Therefore, each of us make a faith decision about eternity. A faith decision about that is unavoidable.
So, yes, I am not unhappy with someone asking a whatabout regarding Jesus. An attempt to explain it away illuminates it to an open mind. You and I can disagree about where the evidence points. However, there is evidence, its nature is not as many here characterize it, and Christians do not believe a thing without evidence
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Letterman [158]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 29, 2025, 5:16 PM
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Happy to discuss, I should have some time later tonight to respond.
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Orange Elite [5153]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 3:18 PM
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Well one thing is certain. Theodore Drange need not debate any longer.
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CU Medallion [20311]
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The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
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Jun 28, 2025, 7:42 PM
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It did provide one man's philosophical review of why "works" is what it takes to be save. The author, despite all of his degrees and higher learning, failed in providing anything other than an opinion piece and then provided an advertisement for "Humanism" at the end of the article.
The author has certainly found the "apple of his eye" in philosophy and humanism. BTW, even the demons believe, and tremble. They will not be in heaven when it is all said and done either.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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110%er [3684]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible ] |
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In another thread a poster defended a contradiction by giving a different answer on Jesus from salvation.
How does this do anything but confirm the contradiction?
If two different books by two different authors have Jesus answering the question “how do you inherit eternal life” differently, that is a contradiction unless one clears it up by adding more to what Jesus said.
There is no other way to harmonize it. If Jesus is truly alive why doesn’t he come down and speak again and clear it up?
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
Jun 29, 2025, 12:54 PM
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The answers given did not contradict each other.
One was given to a self righteous hypocrite and one yoa seeker. Both. Correct answers.
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110%er [3684]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
Jun 29, 2025, 1:15 PM
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How do you know he was a self righteous hypocrite, and even if he was, could he not be saved by putting his faith in Jesus?
Why didn’t Jesus give that answer?
Even when he said ok you’ve kept the commandments, he didn’t follow with faith is still required, he added another work which was giving to the poor.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
Jun 29, 2025, 4:51 PM
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The rich young ruler said he had kept the law. Jesus knew he hadn't. Jesus told him sell all you have because He knew it would expose that the ruler had not kept the law because the ruler loved money more than God. He chose his money over following a direct command from God.
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110%er [3684]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
Jun 29, 2025, 10:14 PM
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“Jesus knew he hadn't”
Your entire position depends on this one statement being true. That Jesus was god and he knew the thoughts and desires of this person. You start with a premise that changes the meaning of the passage. If you take that out and just go by what it says, Jesus literally says that the way to heaven is through keeping the law and caring for the poor.
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110%er [3684]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
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Jun 29, 2025, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible ] |
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Further, the writer of Matthew doubles down on this in the goats and sheep passage with Jesus saying it’s how you treat people that determines your eternal faith.
The only way you can harmonize this with your beliefs is to say Jesus was speaking figuratively and not literally. But that is making the passage say what you want, not letting Jesus, or the writer of Matthew, speak for himself.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
Jun 29, 2025, 4:52 PM
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Jesus did not say how you treat people determines your salvation.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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Jesus speaks through the Holy Spirit He promised.
Jun 29, 2025, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible ] |
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He has never said 'No,' when I ask a question though often He says 'Wait.' I got use to it and declare I asked a question yesterday and expect an answer soon.
God delights when I ask a question. He gets a kick out of making me wait because He, and I, know that the longer I wait the more secure that Q and A will be in my heart.
God will answer all your questions too if you'll affirm that you accept His Son as Savior and Lord. You're gonna have to shed that pride and obstinace and humble yourself to submission. One act and He will open your eyes, the act of humility once will endure forever.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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How about asking him why he included so many things he hates
Jun 29, 2025, 2:55 PM
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in his creation, and get back with me.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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God did not creat sin.
Jun 29, 2025, 4:42 PM
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God hates sin. He is Holy and wouldn't create evil. You will know that Adam and Eve exercised the freewill God gave them by choosing of their own accord that which God forbid them.
We've have exhausted this subject.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: God did not creat sin.
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Jun 29, 2025, 4:58 PM
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Isaiah 45:7
King James Version
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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And we agree, that he created all of this, and knew exactly what would
Jun 29, 2025, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to God did not creat sin. ] |
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happen, including sin and evil, and it follows that it's his will and his desire that they exist. So, according to you, he wants things he doesn't want. Unless, of course, you claim that these things exist against his will.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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It's only "exhausted" to the extent you can't admit the problem with your
Jun 30, 2025, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to God did not creat sin. ] |
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belief.
He is Holy and wouldn't create evil.
Using the same logic and assumption about God, He also would not create us knowing from the start that most of us would spend eternity in hell. That would be cruel, even if he does give us a way out, because he knows so many will not take it. Still evil and cruel by allowing any of us to spend eternity in hell.
And here's the problem with your claim: When God created all of this, he was faced with a choice - create us knowing many or most of us would spend eternity in hell, or not. He CHOSE to do it. You are playing a childish game by insisting that God HAD to do it that way, and that the infinite creator that transcends space and time HAD NO CHOICE, therefore relieving him of any responsibility. Either God is in control, or he's not. Either God wanted this or he didn't. Somehow, you are claiming that God wants things he doesn't want (evil, sin, etc). Either God's creation is flawed, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.
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National Champion [7287]
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Letterman [158]
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Re: How about asking him why he included so many things he hates
Jun 29, 2025, 4:59 PM
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>Evil is an abstract concept, not a tangible thing.
I agree
Evil is an abstract concept, not a tangible thing.
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Orange Immortal [66026]
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And we are just pawns, or characters in a video game that exist only
Jun 30, 2025, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: How about asking him why he included so many things he hates ] |
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for God's pleasure. We are nothing more than a means to an end.
You may be right, but that's not the God I believe in, nor would such a God be worthy of my love or respect.
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