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110%er [3682]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103180]
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If you have something to say regarding this subject then say it.***
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:58 AM
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Letterman [154]
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Re: If you have something to say regarding this subject then say it.***
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Jun 28, 2025, 10:14 AM
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That’s what he’s doing, why are you acting weird?
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Orange Immortal [66008]
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Really good article - spot on. To me it's clear that the very idea
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Jun 28, 2025, 10:52 AM
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of a creator who created a universe he knew right from the start would be filled with all sorts of things he despised and that would make him angry and sad, whether he had to or because he chose to, and therefore required salvation in the first place is comically flawed from the start. That is my belief, my opinion. Many good, very intelligent people disagree.
It's also clear to me that those people typically accept one of those versions of salvation which hinges on the divine authority of what we now call The Bible. So, when these obvious contradictions and problems arise, they are forced to either ignore it, or come up with explanations that explain it all away in order to maintain their faith. All too often, a rational pursuit of the truth is abandoned and replaced with the objective of defending one's chosen faith.
Assuming one believes there is a creator or "God", it all ultimately goes back to one's concept of God. The one we get in the Bible reflects how ancient men saw powerful men; as wise but powerful, judgemental, often extremely vengeful warrior kings. Throw in some heavenly mystical powers and a dash of love and justice and you've got the God of the old testament. A Jew called Jesus came along and some Jews believed he was the prophesied messiah. His following grew, especially after his crucifiction and resurrection. Thus the beliefs of salvation through Jesus as Christ began, which gave believers a way to be saved from eternity in hell. For some reason, God did not just forgive us, he required a blood sacrifice (as was practiced by ancient Jews). It was God's fix for something in his creation that he despised; a sign of his love and grace.
It's clear to me that there's something bad wrong with that story, and that concept of God, and as it relates to your post, the whole idea of salvation. But that's just my opinion.
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Ring of Honor [22575]
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Did you have an extra cup of coffee this morning? Regardless TU
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:03 AM
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For articulating your thoughts.
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Orange Immortal [66008]
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LOL! Actually I did!***
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:18 AM
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 11:39 AM
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Send a copy to your pastor. He would appreciate it.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 12:13 PM
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This is a weird obsession of yours.
Are we supposed to care what a pastor thinks?
They aren’t special
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 1:53 PM
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Not an obsession. A while back I pointed out to Big Dog that he has the beliefs he posts on here, yet he goes to a fundamental Church. In that conversation, I said he was living a double life. He said he was not. I told him that I bet he would not tell his pastor what he posts on here. He asked me what he had posted on here that he would not want his pastor to know he had said. Now I point out to him what he says on here that he would not want his pastor knowing he said.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 2:52 PM
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I’m aware of this exchange, you following him around and repeating it is weird
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 7:07 PM
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He says he doesn’t know which posts his preacher would have a problem with. I just point them out to him. I follow every post in the religious forum.
I think it’s weird someone could attend a fundamental church and disagree in secret with most of what the church they attend believes.
That would be like me putting on UGA crap, attending their games, and acting like I was a fan of those b……s.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 8:54 PM
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Do you actually think everyone in your church actually believes it like you do? You have no idea.
Many people attend for many reasons. I don't go regularly, but I most of our family is religious, so I attend sometimes. I went for years after I stopped believing due to what can basically amount to peer pressure.
Your UGA example isn't as weird as you make it out to be. If you lived in and were surrounded by them, it's not that uncommon for people to dress and act the part. It can be fun.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:54 PM
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I live in Athens. Nothing fun about faking being a leg humper.
The vast majority of people I go to church with sare my soteriological values.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 9:57 PM
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It's the same concept as different religions, you'd probably love being a leg humper if you were born into it. It's mostly chance.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:02 AM
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I was. Family was Ga fans.
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Letterman [154]
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Nice, we understand anecdotes then***
Jun 29, 2025, 8:08 AM
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 2:38 PM
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Interesting. Paul once said that if a person is explaining the Gospel, let them.
We have all individually chosen eternity apart from God, deceived to join a rebellion begun before we were created. God paid the ransom for return, something the Enemy can do nothing about. The choice therefore remains with us to return from the rebellion.
Hearing someone try to explain away that truth is as illuminating of it as hearing someone affirm it, like listening to a moon landing denier. Go right ahead.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 6:47 PM
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You've basically set this up so that if someone addresses the contradictions, they are "explaining away truth," and if they don't, you win anyway. That's not really how arguments work.
There's a reason the moon landing is in history books and the resurrection isn't. One has actual evidence you can verify to back up an extraordinary claim (landing on the moon), the other doesn't. Moon landing deniers ignore documented facts. You're asking us to ignore documented contradictions in the text itself.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 6:58 PM
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"... the other doesn't." As untrue a comment as one will find anywhere. Believe what you want about Jesus, but the evidence is there, which is why attempts to explain it away reveal it to an open mind.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 8:51 PM
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The evidence for the resurrection is testimonial from decades-later believers who didn't even claim to be eyewitnesses, not the contemporaneous, independently documented, physical evidence we have for the moon landing. Roman historians documented far lesser events in detail, but somehow missed the dead rising and walking around Jerusalem.
That's why one has universal historical consensus and the other requires faith. One can be independently confirmed through multiple sources and methods, the other cannot. So yes, 'evidence' exists, but you're falsely equating being a moon landing skeptic with nonbelievers. It's not even close to the same thing.
If anything, claiming supernatural events happened based on decades-later testimonial evidence puts you in the same category as ancient alien theorists or people who believe in miraculous healings at other religious sites.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 29, 2025, 12:35 AM
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That is way misinformed. If that is your understanding, you need to read up on this subject.
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Letterman [154]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
Jun 29, 2025, 8:32 AM
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I suppose if going by standard historical methodology instead of apologetic arguments makes me 'misinformed,' then sure. But saying 'you're wrong, go read more' isn't actually addressing any of the specific points I raised about contemporaneous documentation and independent verification, none of which you've shown to be factually incorrect.
If you think there's evidence for the resurrection that meets the same standards as evidence for the moon landing, then present it instead of just saying 'nuh uh.' Otherwise you're confirming that religious claims require different evidentiary standards.
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Orange Immortal [66008]
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Millions of good, highly intelligent people, like CU, share those beliefs.
Jun 29, 2025, 10:14 AM
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Any beliefs any of us hold about God or spiritual matters requires a healthy dose of speculation and reasoning based on factors other than hard evidence, and requires an equally healthy dose of faith. By no means does that mean those people (including me) are wrong; it just demonstrates the real truth, which is that none of us can claim to know based on any purely objective examination of the facts. Faith alone is not illegitimate, can be powerful, and should be respected; but to the extent it is based on fact, logic, and reasoning, it is very much open to criticism.
Bottom line though, none of us knows, and we all should remember and respect that.
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Orange Elite [5151]
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Re: Bible contradictions on salvation
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Jun 28, 2025, 3:18 PM
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Well one thing is certain. Theodore Drange need not debate any longer.
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CU Medallion [20309]
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The article did not provide any contradictions found in the Bible
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Jun 28, 2025, 7:42 PM
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It did provide one man's philosophical review of why "works" is what it takes to be save. The author, despite all of his degrees and higher learning, failed in providing anything other than an opinion piece and then provided an advertisement for "Humanism" at the end of the article.
The author has certainly found the "apple of his eye" in philosophy and humanism. BTW, even the demons believe, and tremble. They will not be in heaven when it is all said and done either.
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