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Hall of Famer [20540]
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What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 10:39 AM
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If you can't get stars, you get athletes and developmental prospects and you coach them up.
Clemson has done this for years, by the way. When Robert Nkimdiche's mom came rolling in from the Nigerian embassy and took him away from Mickey Conn and Clemson, we just shrugged our shoulders...and replaced him with Kevin Dodd, from nearby Riverside HS. Dodd was a 3-star with precious few offers, and while he had an FBS-body he was, in the words of Venables, "awful". No matter. He worked his tail off, and Clemson's coaches coached him up, and three years later a star was built - not born - and abused an Alabama offensive tackle to the tune of three sacks in the national title game. TJ Green was a 2-star WR convert...from Alabama. Who had neither an Alabama nor an Auburn offer. Jordan Leggett was a mid-level 3-star. Shaq Lawson and Ben Boulware were local boys...everybody knew they were good, but these guys have absolutely dominated in college and Lawson's already playing Sundays and Boulware will be sometime next year. Everybody knows about Hunter Renfrow. The list goes on and on.
The point is, recruiting is as much evaluation as it is persuasion, and how well a coach is evaluating to fit a scheme is something that will never show up on a team's commitment list. The services don't even have Clemson in the Top-10 nationally and I've heard murmurs the 2017 class might not just be one of the most talented in Clemson history but in college football history if a couple of swing guys wind up in orange. Honestly I eyeball the recruiting rankings and take them with a grain of salt; they're a vague general indicator but no more than that. And is it Chicken or Egg with the rankings? Is Alabama #1 in the rankings year after year because they're signing the best recruits, or just because they're, well, Alabama? Dunno. I do know hype and camp attendance and self-promotion seems to play a big part in rankings, these days, what high school coaches are calling the "AAU-ification" of high school football.
So how well is, say, Coach Boom evaluating for South Carolina? How well is he getting maybe unheralded but talented guys who fit his system? How well will he develop them, and coach them up? Or is he just getting warm bodies because that's what he can get right now?
No idea.
The proof, as always, will be in the pudding...and we aren't gonna know for 2-3 years, whereupon it will be obvious to everybody. Just as it's obvious to everybody that Spurrier's staff completely, utterly stopped recruiting 3-4 years ago...a dropoff that the recruiting services did not provide a hint of. Seriously. Check South Carolina's recruiting rankings from 247 and Rivals and Scout over the last four seasons; there isn't the slightest hint there of the shipwreck that was to come. South Carolina's recruiting had completely fallen off a cliff...and none of the recruiting services noticed at all. How those sites still maintain subscribers who buy what they're peddling when the team South Carolina has on the field can't even beat the Citadel is a....mystery. But the services failed at least as bad as the South Carolina coaching staff did.
So it's fun to make fun of what actually (cough) does look like a Coach Boom Cattle Call...but in honesty it is also kind of hard to tell from afar what exactly he's gotten.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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interesting since dodd was class of 2011, then 2012
Jun 20, 2016, 10:44 AM
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after prep and kimdeechee was class of 2013.
according to rivals, dodd committed to clemson in 2010.
after?
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Yep... was about to bring up the same thing.***
Jun 20, 2016, 10:54 AM
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CU Guru [1277]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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haha, another fantasy, harlequin romance...
Jun 20, 2016, 12:43 PM
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the boy's got a purty mouth on him though.
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Orange Blooded [3945]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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hi, little bitter-buddy.***
Jun 20, 2016, 11:27 PM
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Oculus Spirit [80346]
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He couldn't win at Florida with a loaded roster of talent so
Jun 20, 2016, 10:50 AM
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I don't see him winning with 2 and 3* talent either.
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Commissioner [998]
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Re: He couldn't win at Florida with a loaded roster of talent so
Jun 20, 2016, 11:11 AM
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Exactly. Even if he does have success he is starting from the bottom. Like rock bottom. Dabo had 3x the talent when he took over
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All-In [40934]
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he sukked at Florida but learned from his mistakes
Jun 20, 2016, 7:08 PM
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nobody can stop him now...just ask any coot
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All-TigerNet [13249]
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Exactly!! Compare his D his last year at Florida
Jun 20, 2016, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to He couldn't win at Florida with a loaded roster of talent so ] |
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to our D the same year. They gave up 70 more yards a game. This, with what should have been mostly his players, recruited to HIS system. That program was loaded with talent. No way he had less to work with than what we did and the numbers simply don't lie.
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All-TigerNet [13249]
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Mind you...
Jun 20, 2016, 6:44 PM
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they gave up 70 yards a game more, against teams that, on average, snapped the ball much less.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Thought Green jumped to a four star after
Jun 20, 2016, 10:56 AM
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Clemson's offer became public and we stole him from UAB. Auburn offered shortly after but was too late. We kept his offer secret. Lawson and Ben were both 4 stars I believe. As of right now, they're definitely missing star power.
I believe you can develop a few guys but I don't think you can develop a whole roster. They're bound to improve to some extent but with Bust at the helm, I think their ceiling is very, very limited. He knows how to blow a vein pretty well, I'll give him that.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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yes, shaq and ben were both 4*...
Jun 20, 2016, 11:25 AM
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espn had green highest as a 4 star, not sure of everyone's eval periods as he was a late-comer, but auburn offered.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/recruiting/Auburn-offers-Clemson-visitor-9493
boulware's rap sheet
he was smaller than steele liked his linebackers[nothing wrong with that], just glad bv showed up in time to save the day.
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Scout Team [192]
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Re: yes, shaq and ben were both 4*...
Jun 20, 2016, 11:50 AM
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If my memory serves me right Ben was only a three star until the under armor all American game. That's when ESPN and other services actually paid attention.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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1st Rounder [605]
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Plenty of 2/3 * guys turn out to be
Jun 20, 2016, 12:39 PM
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4/5* caliber players and early round NFL draft pics. Beasley, Dodd, Jarrett, Renfrow, etc .... But how about all the 2/3* guys that don't pan out? You don't hear about them so it's hard to guess, but what do y'all think the % is of low rated recruits that end up being beasts? Obviously some coaches have a higher "conversion rate" than others, and I think Dabo is in the upper tier of this, but but on average I would guess maybe 10% of 2/3* guys end up being total dominators like Dodd and Beasley. So if Boom recruits 20 of these 2/3* guys he gets on average 2 solid players. Definitely sounds like a good long term winning strategy.
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110%er [8008]
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Shaq was a 3 star coming out of HS in 2011. Only after a
Jun 20, 2016, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to yes, shaq and ben were both 4*... ] |
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year in prep did he move to a 4 star. At least according to Rivals.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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so he was a 4 star when he came to clemson?
Jun 20, 2016, 12:08 PM
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got it.
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110%er [8008]
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Rivals had Green as a 2 star, and still do in their database
Jun 20, 2016, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to Thought Green jumped to a four star after ] |
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Shaq was 3 star in HS and became a 4 star after a year of prep school.
Dodd was a 2/3 star in HS and became a 4 star after prep school.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Orange Blooded [2939]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.***
Jun 20, 2016, 10:57 AM
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Legend [19610]
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Listen..we find 2..maybe 3 diamonds in the rough each year.
Jun 20, 2016, 11:23 AM
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And we coach them up..like you said.
But we never have taken commits from SEVEN 2-3 star recruits during a camp and tried to turn them into a championship caliber team. That does not happen.
People point to Iowa as an example of doing more with less. True, they take lower star guys and get a lot out of them,...but when was their last championship?
Frankly, their recruiting has returned to the levels of the 90's. They have little talent, a couple of "heart" players and one or two 4 stars they speak of as elite.(remember Daccus Turman, Corey Jenkins, Travelle Wharton).
Maybe USuC will turn a few of these lower ranked guys into great players, but you can't expect to do that on a regular basis. Replacing starters every year with new projects is a s cript for failure.
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CU Guru [1476]
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You can develop 2&3* guys into a roster
Jun 20, 2016, 1:23 PM
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And have a championship type of year every now and then, when the stars align and you have a ton of Redshirt Jr & Sr that you 'hit' on and have been working for years a.k.a when Wake was good a few years or an Iowa last year. It will work in spots.
What Dabo is doing is creating a snowball of increasing momentum for the program that can sustain and improve upon itself in perpetuity. I don't even think we realize how good we are going to be.
We have the 2-3* hard work mentality instilled now into 4-5* Elite Athletes which equates to.... A lot of W's and Cats in the NFL who know how to work and know how right living pays off.
They are going to be modeling programs after us in a few years wondering how we built this.
I love it when a plan comes together.
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Legend [17289]
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Get athletes & numbers, development - then add "Stars "
Jun 20, 2016, 11:28 AM
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That formula will take 3-5 years. Will USuC have the patience & perseverance to wait?
My guess is NOT- especially since Boom is an unproven HC.
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110%er [6881]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 11:45 AM
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I think this is well stated, Clemson fans should say less and just sit back and watch. Has U of SC hired a coach with all the skills of a Dabo Swinney? This could be very entertaining to watch.
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110%er [8008]
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His stint at UF says no.***
Jun 20, 2016, 12:08 PM
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Letterman [270]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 12:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding. ] |
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Yeah I think we will be watching a slow motion train wreck in Columbia over the next several years. They've got nothing, are getting nothing and have a coach that has proved that he can do nothing. Should be fun.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 12:06 PM
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Usually not getting big time players means every 4 years you might have a 9-10 win season.
I rather get players that are good enough to play right away.
Than them starting to get it their JR year and then having a bunch of decent Srs.
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110%er [8008]
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Grady Jarrett 2 star. A Humphrey 2 star. Vic Beasley 3 star***
Jun 20, 2016, 12:06 PM
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All-TigerNet [13249]
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We have a staff that can evaluate talent though.....
Jun 20, 2016, 12:56 PM
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They don't.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 12:19 PM
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We all know that some coaches can "do more with less", but I would put Boom in the category that will "do less with more". He's proven that at Texas and Florida. I'm not sure that Texas has recovered yet, but UF was lucky enough to get a previous Bama coach that proved himself at CSU.
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All-In [26009]
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Re: What is Boom getting? Proof will be in the pudding.
Jun 20, 2016, 12:29 PM
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And as we all know, Dodd played for a National Championship and Nnmeicche did not. Not to mention the other stuff he had to explain.
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All-TigerNet [14233]
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I do agree with some of your assessment
Jun 20, 2016, 12:39 PM
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But I think the NC winner has had at least 1 class in the top 5 of Rivals.
Clemson is not a national power with a bunch of 2/3 stars. We're a national power because we have been in top ten of recruiting for the last 3/4 years.
Is it possible to find studs under radar? Absolutely. But a team full of 3 stars is not going to win championships. Check Iowa Hawkeyes for instance. They were undefeated in the regular season but got exposed for their lack of talent in the end.
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All-TigerNet [13249]
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Coach them up...Doubt it. Evaluate talent....that's a joke!!
Jun 20, 2016, 12:54 PM
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Boom has done "less with more" than any coach in the last 5 years. After his first year, his teams at Florida were a Dumpster Fire.
His defense at Auburn was porous in 2015.....ranking 71st in total defense, giving up 405 yards a game. They ranked 66th, 398 yards per game in 2014. Yes, they got worse when he got there. To me, this says he either A) lost a ton of talent, B) didn't coach them up or C) never connected with the players.
He might be a great X's & O's coach, but at the same time I have serious doubts about his ability to evaluate, connect with players and coach fundamentals.
You see how many, and how fast, their offers are going out? Where are they actually taking the time to evaluate the players. They're taking anyone right now b/c that program is a dumpster fire too. They had a nice little 5-6 year run, but it's over. And, nobody wants to go there right now.
The marriage of Dirt ###### U and Coach Boom are match made in heaven. USuCk was desperate to have a "Name", even if the person was not very qualified. And Boom was desperate to be a head coach again so he can stroke his own ego and call all the shots.
I'm telling you folks, this will be some of the best years you've ever enjoyed. 2-7 years ago might have been painful, but we're about to enjoy the next 10. You watch.
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