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Replies: 61
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Orange Blooded [2021]
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Legend [18026]
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Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful***
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Apr 28, 2023, 5:47 PM
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful***
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:03 PM
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Yup. It also isn't democracy. It seems fairly obvious to any nincompoop that if you allow representatives to choose their voters, as opposed to the other way around, the result is fore-ordained and is not going to be any sort of reflection of the will of the people but the will of the folks trying to hold power.
But then...that's also the point. And the GOP as constituted no longer believes in actual democracy amyhow.
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful***
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:11 PM
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So requiring ID and not allowing hard core criminals to vote is bad??
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Re: Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful***
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:12 PM
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I think you’re overlooking the really important part here. The gerrymandering thing is a game-changer…and by that I mean autocracy.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Y'all cheer no voter id so I have 0 sympathy***
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:55 PM
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Legend [18026]
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Got it, no sympathy, but do you think gerrymandering is bad?***
Apr 28, 2023, 7:20 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Bad when its Dems, good when it's pubs
Apr 28, 2023, 8:46 PM
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To be honest there is no fair way to decide lines. It will always be biased, even if its a computer, which is human programmed, usually be radical libs as we've seen in big tech
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Legend [18026]
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Thank you for your honesty.***
Apr 28, 2023, 8:57 PM
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Bad when its Dems, good when it's pubs
Apr 29, 2023, 10:25 AM
[ in reply to Bad when its Dems, good when it's pubs ] |
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To be honest there is no fair way to decide lines. It will always be biased, even if its a computer, which is human programmed, usually be radical libs as we've seen in big tech
Dopey comment.
"Computer programmers will program more Democratic seats?"
To Republicans, whether it is voting districts or news coverage, it is bias unless it parrots the right-wing company line.
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All-In [34598]
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All-TigerNet [11207]
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Hall of Famer [24098]
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110%er [7144]
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Re: Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful***
Apr 30, 2023, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful*** ] |
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As for gerrymandering, Democrats and Republicans both ascribe equally to this practice.
As to Voter ID requirements, Republicans support this and Democrats do not.
Thus the OP’s prediction that … POOF! NC has turned red again.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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Legend [18026]
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Nope, it isn't. We can agree gerrymandering is wrong, right?***
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:17 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Nope, it isn't. We can agree gerrymandering is wrong, right?***
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Apr 28, 2023, 7:03 PM
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Legend [18026]
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If you believe that, ok. But here and now, whatchya got?
Apr 28, 2023, 7:19 PM
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It should be pretty bipartisan to denounce it, yet I keep seeing all the so-called "conservatives" tap dancing away from answering the question or giving their opinion on it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If you believe that, ok. But here and now, whatchya got?
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Apr 28, 2023, 7:36 PM
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Legend [18026]
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I guess by not answering the question, you are answering it.
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Apr 28, 2023, 7:41 PM
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Possibly in the most transparent way.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I guess by not answering the question, you are answering it.
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Apr 28, 2023, 7:54 PM
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Legend [18026]
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VoterID will have almost no impact on voting. Now...
Apr 28, 2023, 8:15 PM
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now that I got your attempt at deflecting out of the way, any chance you'll answer if gerrymandering is wrong?
(BTW, the OP is referring to two rulings the NC supreme court reversed today so there's no thread jacking/whatabouting/deflecting going on, the question is relevant to the very point OP is making that because of the rulings "NC is solid red again" which he stole from a twitter comment).
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: VoterID will have almost no impact on voting. Now...
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Apr 28, 2023, 8:45 PM
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Legend [18026]
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Again, just know that your non-answer is an answer...
Apr 28, 2023, 8:56 PM
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No, the topic is NC becoming a red state because of the news of the NC Supreme Court reversing two cases today. That's the underlying topic of OP's post and it's why my post and question are relevant (as is your and every other "conservative's" inability to answer the question also very relevant.
I think 56,000 people being allowed or not allowed to vote because they are serving a sentence outside of prison will also make little difference, at least compared to gerrymandering.
Is Gerrymandering good or bad?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Again, just know that your non-answer is an answer...
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Apr 28, 2023, 9:03 PM
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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deflect and run away. LOL
Apr 28, 2023, 11:56 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: deflect and run away. LOL
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Apr 29, 2023, 12:30 AM
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110%er [7144]
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Re: deflect and run away. LOL
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Apr 30, 2023, 5:05 PM
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Please don’t make fun of that poor guy.
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110%er [7144]
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Re: Again, just know that your non-answer is an answer...
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Apr 30, 2023, 5:08 PM
[ in reply to Again, just know that your non-answer is an answer... ] |
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You know better.
The OP’s point was that Voter ID and restrictions as to voting privileges by felons in the State of NC will be bad for Democrat political candidates in that state.
Period.
Gerrymandering was not part of the OP, no matter how fervently TNet’s lefties wish that it was.
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Legend [18026]
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His point was about the state turning Red. Why?
Apr 30, 2023, 7:47 PM
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because of what the NC Supreme Court just reversed (he specified VoterID, blocking those serving time outside of jail from voting) but that is only half of what they reversed and my answer was simply that the other half will be much more impactful. Now, I think you're smart enough to understand that that is both in keeping with OP's subject matter (and disagreeing that it'll have an impact) and also explaining the full context (at the same time giving an opinion on that context). It's not like I brought up the Braves or some unrelated subject matter. But maybe I give you too much credit.
The only ones dancing away from this issue are the so-called "conservatives" who try to deflect by not answering if they think gerrymandering is bad. Even you deflected by saying both do it, but that doesn't answer if it's bad. Though the couple that have answered it basically stated they're fine with it because "their side" is winning without realizing how anti-democratic that answer/belief is which only confirms what Quozzel said about the Republican party.
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Orange Blooded [2021]
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Re: His point was about the state turning Red. Why?
May 1, 2023, 9:17 AM
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My point was NOT about the state "turning red"
I said it was "solid red" - they just can't pull off the steal know with Voter ID back in place
NC has always been red
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Legend [18026]
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lol, you left out the "again."***
May 1, 2023, 4:13 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Lot o points [155944]
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Gerrymandering is completely legal and fine.
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Apr 29, 2023, 7:23 AM
[ in reply to Allowing the gerrymandered map is more impactful*** ] |
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I’m not some massive gerrymandering fan, but it’s not this giant evil behemoth that it’s made out to be. If a party effs up enough in representing constituents, their gerrymandered control can be overcome (California excepted maybe).
Here was the Dem-drawn NC congressional map when I moved there in 1998. If gerrymandering were a foolproof way to permanent power, we wouldn’t be arguing about a red NC today.
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: Gerrymandering is completely legal and fine.
Apr 29, 2023, 10:08 AM
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I disagree. Utterly. And this isn't going to fly...there's a whole lot of reasons for that, but I'm not going to waste my breath even trying to explain it, mostly because the would-be Fascists on this thread would only go ape when the hard realities of this new age we're moving into are laid bare for them. (Deep down, they all do know it, which is why they're so frantic and angry...the future really does not have any place for them.) But suffice it to say, the balance of power is not on the GOP's side on this issue...at all. At some point the non-MAGA's are going to get sufficiently irritated that they're going to flex...and the GOP is going to discover that it's become a party of tired, bitter old men, and the world has long-since passed them by. It happens at the end of every age.
You and me, Obed - all of Gen X, actually - are straddling the aperture between eras. And the future is coming for us whether we like it or not. (And I often don't. I suspect I'm not going to like this new age very much.) But the forces driving this change are far too big for any of us to fight...and MAGA is such a pack of reactionary imbeciles they don't even understand what they're actually fighting anyway. They're the Industrial Age's version of the Luddites, howling about the rise of the factory.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Gerrymandering has been around long before us
Apr 29, 2023, 10:10 AM
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As has the ebbs and flows of various parties in power. The world keeps turning.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Gerrymandering has been around long before us
Apr 29, 2023, 10:38 AM
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The GOP has set aside all respect for Democracy in order to keep party power, despite espousing views that are increasingly unpopular.
Whether it was the SCOTUS manipulation with an utterly fabricated reason to not have SCOTUS hearings in the last year of the Obama term, to racing a nominee through in the last months of the Trump term.
To actions like this conservative court decision, where a month's old court decision is tossed for purely political reasons.
In the 116th Congress (2019 to 2021) North Carolina had 10 Republicans and 3 democrats elected to Congress. Over three-quarters of the seat, despite the statewide vote going 50.4% Republican and 48.4% Democrat. Nothing democratic about that process.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Look back up a couple replies
Apr 29, 2023, 10:42 AM
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At that dem drawn map and tell me again that only the republicans engage in this.
Like it or not, gerrymandering has been ruled legal and constitutional, and as it sits, to the victors go the spoils, in situations where it aids my ideology and situations where it hinders it.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Additionally, you focus too much on too small a
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Apr 29, 2023, 10:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: Gerrymandering is completely legal and fine. ] |
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Sample of time, and ignore the timelessness of human nature.
Generations rebel and reject the norms of the generations that preceded them. Always have, always will. In modern times it’s why the straightlaced depression babies gave way to the hippies who gave way to the yuppies who gave way to the liberal mass we have now. The next generation or two will also similarly tire of the highly liberal morality that’s being forced on the now and you’ll see another conservative swing happen well within our lifetimes.
You can control a lot of things but you can’t control human nature.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Additionally, you focus too much on too small a
Apr 29, 2023, 10:40 AM
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I think your premise goes against the solid evidence that young people are way more tolerant and socially liberal than older people.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Re: Additionally, you focus too much on too small a
Apr 29, 2023, 10:44 AM
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So how’d we go from the summer of love to the Reagan era in a generation?
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Associate AD [828]
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110%er [7144]
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Gerrymandering on steroids - black House candidates
Apr 30, 2023, 5:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Gerrymandering is completely legal and fine. ] |
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Gerrymandering became especially egregious when black candidates (all of whom were Democrats back then) complained about not being electable because of racial prejudices in a Congressional district.
Remember Cynthia McKinney (former US Congressional Rep) in Georgia and Jim Clyburn (currently in office)?
Both were the first of their respective state’s black US Congressional Representatives since the end of Reconstruction.
Neither would have made it to Congress had not the courts not redrawn the congressional district maps to create a large majority of black voters. ‘Natural’ boundaries such as geographical features or county lines were considered.
Gerrymandering in its most blatant practice is what created these congressional districts.
So enough already with this nonsense that MAGA voters are somehow the embodiment of gerrymandering. Democrats, in their pandering to black voters, put gerrymandering on steroids.
Now the Democrats complain when congressional districts are redrawn for the same ‘unnatural’ reasons to which they had so vigorously promoted in the past.
Gheesh!
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Legend [18026]
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It's anti-democratic (at least to the level proposed in NC)
Apr 29, 2023, 5:08 PM
[ in reply to Gerrymandering is completely legal and fine. ] |
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and in others (like Illinois by dems) are proposing. The fact that it forces a party to have to royally "eff up" in order to be overcome only supports that idea (and the fact that you propose that it's possible it can't be overcome again only strengthens the argument against). Also, it's worth pointing out that California has delegated an independent commission with doing their redistricting. They took away the power of redistricting from the legislature. And there's been controversy with those maps as well which I think is inevitable with any attempt to redistrict, but I agree, in theory at least, that giving legislatures the power to create the maps seems problematic.
I understand the need for redistricting and why the differences in rural vs city population concentrations often result in skewed results in voting (often seen in the popular vote discrepancies), but there is a fairer way to do it than what the Republicans are doing in NC where it would take a massive blowout in the popular vote (7 points) for the dems to get half of the state delegation. That's not reflective of granting the will of the people and by definition it's anti-democratic. Same goes for voter ID, which, no matter how easy it is to obtain is still an obstacle to voting and serves to disenfranchise or lower the numbers of votes (especially in the face of little to no voter fraud which is its so-called intended target).
Gerrymandering isn't a foolproof way to permanent power but there's a reason both parties push so strongly to create gerrymandered districts and it's not for any democratic reason.
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Lot o points [155944]
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What’s that saying? Elections have consequences?
Apr 29, 2023, 10:18 PM
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Yes they do. Some I like and many I don’t.
There’s zero impartial way to do this that everyone would agree too, zero, so you’re left simply looking for the least bad option. I’m not going to get too heated up over it when all options suck.
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Legend [18026]
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Elections are democratic because they offer choice...
Apr 30, 2023, 4:37 PM
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this removes that choice to create one option of rule. No matter how cynical your belief is about government, it's anti-democratic to just shrug away the level of gerrymandering being proposed in these states.
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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By hook or by crook…
Apr 28, 2023, 6:10 PM
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So, a state that is probably about as close to 50/50 as any in the country, is guaranteed to have one party rule by a republican supermajority for at least the next 8-10 years minimum…even is they have a democratic governor. We are starting to see on the state level what minority rule will look like.
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
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Apr 28, 2023, 6:13 PM
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ID is bad???
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 28, 2023, 6:17 PM
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Voter ID is just the part they want you to focus on…did deeper on the gerrymandering part. As Quozzel said…it’s not democracy.
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All-In [40936]
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The United States is not a democracy thankfully***
Apr 28, 2023, 8:57 PM
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Lot o points [155944]
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Lulz***
Apr 29, 2023, 10:14 PM
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110%er [7144]
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Constitutional Republic vs Republic
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Apr 30, 2023, 5:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: The United States is not a democracy thankfully*** ] |
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The USA is a CONSTITUTIONAL republic … not just a simple republic.
In a simple republic, representatives are selected to run the government according to their judgement.
In a constitutional republic, representatives are selected to run the government, but within the constraints of the constitution.
The SCOTUS, as the third branch of the US government, is charged with upholding the constitution.
It is ironic that Democrat is the party which so despises the SCOTUS. The constitution is undesirable in the minds of Democrats (or so they have deluded themselves to think this).
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Orange Blooded [4789]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 28, 2023, 9:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: By hook or by crook… ] |
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Good thing we don't live in a democracy. Somebody needs to repeat grade school.
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 29, 2023, 11:08 AM
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That would actually be you. You might wanna check the first three words of the Constitution, those being "We The People."
Rome was a pure Republic - an autocratic one. Their Senate was appointed, not elected, and the people had no say in who got elected.
That is not the system we established - ours is by the Constitution a democratic republic - but it's the one you are trying to impose.
https://adamsmacros.quora.com/The-USA-is-a-republic-AND-a-democracy-dammit The USA is a republic AND a democracy, ######!
How many times have I heard the slogan, "The USA is a republic, not a democracy"? This blatantly false catchphrase is chiefly used as a way of persuading the ill-informed to vote for the Republican party instead of the Democratic party. But anyone who says it must have either forgotten or flunked...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 29, 2023, 11:22 AM
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 29, 2023, 2:09 PM
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The point is, we were established as both a republic and a democracy. They are not mutually exclusive.
We The People are supposed to have the right to elect our representatives. Again, first three words of the Constitution, it's right there, plain as day. When the representatives can choose which voters get to vote for them, the fix is in and the party in power can then game the system so they can never lose...at which point it's not a democracy anymore. It's then become an autocratic republic, not a democratic one. The will of We The People no longer matters.
It happened in Hungary. Viktor Orban likes to call it "illiberal democracy", which is another play on words that negates the meaning of both. In the strictest sense, it means "the people who matter get to decide who runs things". And of course, Hungary has been gerrymandered to such an extent the only people who matter are the ones who support Orban. Which is hardly a democracy...or at least, it's a sham of one.
If you can't understand why people will not accept that being done here, I can't help you. You would never stand for it if the shoe was on the other foot...so why would you expect anyone else to?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: By hook or by crook…
Apr 29, 2023, 10:21 PM
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CU Medallion [60043]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22503
Joined: 5/24/17
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Re: By hook or by crook…
May 1, 2023, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to By hook or by crook… ] |
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Only 50/50 due to the yankee influx into Triangle area.
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110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9440
Joined: 12/18/13
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Eat it "right to vote"***
Apr 28, 2023, 6:12 PM
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110%er [5694]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 12169
Joined: 9/28/08
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NC is red so all is good
Apr 28, 2023, 8:11 PM
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for NC_Tiger_ 
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Associate AD [828]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 3982
Joined: 4/14/09
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Re: NC is red so all is good
Apr 29, 2023, 10:39 AM
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Because you don't care in the slightest about the health of the democracy.
It is easy to understand why so many Republicans seem to love Putin these days.
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