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Legend [19586]
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A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:19 AM
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OC #1 - Brandon Streeter
QB Coach, Became passing game coordinator, and then took over entirely, the offense at a top Program in the nation with top 5 talent (according to 247 Team Talent Composite) across the board and tops in the ACC. QB room has 3 former 5 star players. WR room has 5 former 4 star players. RB room has a 5 star and 4 star player. OL room has a 5 star and 8 4 star players.
Year Prior 2020 (QB Coach)
10th Total Offense
6th Passing Offense
76th Rushing Offense
4th Scoring Offense
year 1 2021 (passing game coordinator)
100th Total Offense - (-90 spots)
103rd Passing Offense - (-97 spots)
57th Rushing Offense - (+19 spots)
82nd Scoring Offense - (-78 spots)
year 2 2022 (Offensive Coordinator)
54th Total Offense - (+46 spots)
84th Passing Offense - (+19 spots)
39th Rushing Offense - (+18 spots)
27th Scoring Offense - (+55 spots)
Improvement year 1 to year 2 across the board but still no where near acceptable to the level of talent. Is it enough improvement considering the talent on the team and the level of competition? 2021 saw competition vs the eventual national champ and the eventual acc champ. Team did not face these 2 teams in 2022. Team did not face a 10 win team in 2022.
OC #2
Was co-OC at a CUSA team before taking over a Sunbelt team Offense that has historically ran the triple option until 2022. This team's all-time highest rated commit was 4 star (0.8966) Terrance Gibbs in 2022 who did not see the field. Gibbs is the only 4 star player on the team. All other players are 3 star or less. According to 247 Team Talent Composite, this team ranks 108th in the nation in talent and 11th in their conference. The personnel of this team is set up for the triple option although they did land a QB and WR or 2 out of the portal.
Prior year 2021 (Co-OC of a different team)
106th Total Offense
124th Passing Offense
33rd Rushing Offense
114th Scoring offense
Year 1 2022 (Offensive Coordinator)
19th Total Offense - (+87 spots
4th Passing Offense - (+120 spots)
84th Rushing Offense - (-51 spots)
31st Scoring Offense - (+83 spots)
This OC took a triple option team with some of the worst talent in the nation and almost the worst talent in their conference and year 1 turned them into a top 5 passing offense and top 20 total offense.
Can anyone name this OC?
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All-In [43769]
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Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:21 AM
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Are you about to reveal the fact that there is an OC somewhere in the sunbelt conference with better statistics than Streeter?
What's next? Are you going to point out the fact that there were better QBs statistically than Trevor Lawrence?
Good grief.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:24 AM
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Oh the old "well they played defenses in a lesser conference argument" while ignoring the fact that it's apples vs apples in terms of talent and competition.
That argument isn't going to work here....
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Hold up. ] |
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And since you do want to bring it up. This team beat a power 5 team while scoring 45 and running up 642 yards.
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:33 AM
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And went 6-6, and 3-5 in their conference.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:35 AM
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So you're saying a 3-9 team brought in a new OC and year 1 became bowl eligible? That's your argument against this guy? they're 6-6 despite having the 102nd defense in the nation.
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All-In [40100]
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10-2 is mo better than 6-6***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:38 AM
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Legend [19586]
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You're trying to argue season record
Nov 30, 2022, 11:40 AM
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in terms of offensive production while ignoring everything that factors into those records.
We're talking offense here plain and simple. We are not 10-2 because of Brandon Streeter lol
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Legend [19586]
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I take that back
Nov 30, 2022, 11:40 AM
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We are 10-2 because of Brandon Streeter. We could be 11-1 or 12-0
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Freshman [-79]
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We couldn't stop ND. Loss.
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:09 PM
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Streeter wasn't the reason for a 27.6% completion rate. Even still, we were a fumbled punt away from having a great chance to pull it out. Really amazing in spite of 27.6%
Nobody can fix that broken issue via magic playcalls or schemes. We've adjusted to give us the best chance to win. Can't do anymore than that. It's not OC.
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Mascot [17]
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Re: We couldn't stop ND. Loss.
Dec 6, 2022, 2:10 PM
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Streeter had the ability to pull the QB anytime if he thought 27.6% wasn't acceptable or he could run the ball and say no more RPO's, just R. Run the ball. The OC is responsible for play calling and personnel. So why do what wasn't working?
Sorry but the OC did not give us a great chance to win. QB isn't throwing well, receivers not catching well and OC refuses to run when it is working well.
I will say that against UNC Streeter opened the play book. But again, he apparently called plays for the QB that was in and those plays weren't working. OC just either didn't comprehend that it wasn't working or was afraid to change the game plan for the second half.
Either way, OC's fault. QB's can't decide to play themselves. Someone has to put them in. So OC or HC. You pick.
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All-In [40100]
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That is the only result that matters, your data are results
Nov 30, 2022, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to You're trying to argue season record ] |
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that don't matter. I don't want to have the best offense in the country and lose more games. I want to win games. Does it need to improve, yes, but your arguments are invalid. And in fact are illogical to try and make the leap that bringing that guy in now all of a sudden we are a better team. Not even saying that Streeter is the right guy. But logic is evading you.
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Legend [19586]
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Are you really saying if we had a better offense we'd lose
Nov 30, 2022, 11:47 AM
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more games?
You're not making any sense.
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All-In [40100]
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No I'm saying your arguments are illogical hth.***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:49 AM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: No I'm saying your arguments are illogical hth.***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:54 AM
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So my argument that there are play callers who do more with less talent than our current OC and we could win more games if we had a play caller who could utilize our talent like these other play callers do is illogical because the team/oc example I used has a terrible defense and only won 3 more games than last year?
Are you listening to your self?
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All-In [40100]
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You can repeat yourself all you want.
Nov 30, 2022, 12:00 PM
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So, you change to Ellis and it fixes everything? No. It's the same that assume because Dabo goes to Alabama then they are going to be successful. Also, no. Possible, but not guaranteed. Very different set of circumstances. You are repeating yourself and are convinced you're right and for that I'm proud of you. Just know that your argument doesn't hold water outside of your brain.
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Freshman [-79]
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If the QBs are performing at different levels
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: No I'm saying your arguments are illogical hth.*** ] |
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then that's the reason for o
OC B to have better stats.
But, it cannot be dismissed that OC A has 10 wins with a chance at 12 wind.
You can replace OC A with OC B, but B is still constrained by the QB. OC A has done a remarkable job considering the elephant in the room.
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All-In [43769]
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Legend [19586]
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Well.....yeah....pretty much***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:55 AM
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Freshman [-79]
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: Hold up.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: Hold up. ] |
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That and the fact he scored 10 points against Marshall and 17 against Louisiana.
My argument is not really against his guy. My argument is against your premise. Especially considering the offense numbers that you posted indicate a significant improvement from last year, when Streeter was not the coordinator.
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Team Captain [450]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:26 AM
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I am wondering if you think moving from Trevor Lawrence to a first year starting QB is a factor?
Losing the the best RB in ACC history is a factor?
Losing 2 senior WRs and replacing with all FR and SOPH due to many injuries is a factor?
Replacing 4 starters on the oline is a factor?
Nah, it's all on the OC. That makes sense.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:33 AM
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Should those things have been a factor in our Offense not being as good as 2020? Oh absolutely. Do all of those things mean that we should have fallen straight off a cliff offensively? Absolutely not.
Even after losing all those pieces this team still had some of the top talent in the nation and still does. Meanwhile the Wake Forest offense with Group of 5 level talent is running circles around our offense in our same conference!!!
Meanwhile talented play callers that we could have scooped up go to historically bad teams with practically no talent even in terms of their own conferences and turn them into scoring machines.
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110%er [5013]
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Yep… tell it like it is brotha!***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:38 AM
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: A tale of two OCs ] |
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They scored 10 points against Marshall and 17 against Louisiana.
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Legend [19586]
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lol Do you know anything about Marshall's defense?***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:42 AM
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: lol Do you know anything about Marshall's defense?***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:47 AM
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Yes. I know they held Georgia Southern to ten points...and Louisiana held them to 17 points.
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Legend [19586]
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Marshall would probably hold us to 10 points
Nov 30, 2022, 11:57 AM
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They have a top 10 defense in the nation. They beat the team that shellacked us.
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Freshman [-79]
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Again, it ALL starts at QB.
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: A tale of two OCs ] |
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There are no magic play calls or schemes to do any better than what we are.
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Legend [19586]
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I just don't buy that at all unless you're willing to argue
Nov 30, 2022, 12:23 PM
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that teams like Wake Forest have more talent than we do.
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Freshman [-79]
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Wake's WRs are very good, and more impo6
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:46 PM
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Sam Hartman consistently delivers passes on time and on target.
If you're asking me if we'd be a better offense with Sam Hartman, then your answer is yes.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Wake's WRs are very good, and more impo6
Nov 30, 2022, 12:55 PM
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I think we'd be a slightly better offense with Hartman than DJ because Hartman is just way better than DJ. But our offense would not be better than Wake's is right now if we had Hartman.
Clawson with Hartman > Streeter with hartman
Clawson with DJ > Streeter with DJ
h3ll i might would venture to say that Clawson with DJ > Streeter with Hartman
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CU Medallion [64591]
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I assume you're talking about Bryan Ellis...
Nov 30, 2022, 11:34 AM
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IMO the biggest issue with the Clemson offense is that we no longer have the generational talent at QB and WR and, because of that, the play calling has been adjusted considerably based on the limitations of the current personnel.
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Legend [19586]
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I am***
Nov 30, 2022, 11:36 AM
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All-TigerNet [10892]
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All-In [40100]
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This is correct and it was true before DJ. DJ is not
Nov 30, 2022, 11:48 AM
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producing. But we don't beat Bama when we did without heroic games from our qb. Yes, alot of other greatness too but they had to play lights out. This is what I admired about Saban's team. In the past, his qb never had to be heroic, just had to not screw up and turn over the ball. Is that changing now, maybe. But you actually hit the nail on the head and that was prior to Streeter.
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All-TigerNet [10892]
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Absolutely. Sometimes it didn't work out even with Superman.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:50 AM
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We have an offense like FSU in the 90s. Doesn't really methodically do anything, then all of the sudden we'll hit a big play for a touchdown. Very frustrating to watch.
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Freshman [-79]
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Orange Blooded [4276]
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All-TigerNet [13895]
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Freshman [-79]
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Um, no. We need a QB who can consistently buy time when needed,
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:17 PM
[ in reply to Yep, our offense isn't fundamentally sound, doesn't work ] |
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see the whole field, and delivers balls beyond 8 yards that give a receiver a chance to catch it.
Standard QB stuff. Not, " Superman" at all.
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Legend [19586]
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CU Medallion [64591]
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So you think the Clemson WR's and QB would be better...
Nov 30, 2022, 12:41 PM
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if they were playing elsewhere which, if true, implies that the issue is coaching not talent.
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Legend [19586]
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Absolutely
Nov 30, 2022, 12:52 PM
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The issue is absolutely coaching. Coaching and a terrible QB.
We have 3 major issues on offense right now as I see it.
Offensive Scheme/Offensive Coordinator - Our scheme is stale and outdated and while it as very effective from 2011-2018 it got by on talent alone 2019-2020 and that is when we started to sputter against more elite teams like LSU and OSU. If we already had a new effective scheme in place I believe Streeter could run it just fine. But we need an overhaul and Streeter is no architect.
WR Coaching - Grisham is just a flat out total failure. Every upper classmen we have has gotten worse at fundamentals in terms of blocks, getting separation, aggressiveness and high pointing, drops etc
QB - DJ is just not a QB that should be starting at Clemson University. Maybe Duke.
With that said, an elite offensive mind/architect changes their offense to suit their players. We see this with Kiffin/Dart, Malzhan/Plumlee, Garrett Riley/Duggan and the list goes on.
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Mascot [19]
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Re: Very good stats, but...
Nov 30, 2022, 11:39 AM
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Dabo manages his staff and his players differently. Dabo rewards effort over results, and never recognizes weakness/failure - especially his own.
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Freshman [-79]
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Shut up, coot. You know nothing about Dabo.***
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:21 PM
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CU Guru [1686]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:41 AM
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We can spin this a million ways. Streeter may be a more than adequate oc for a non-power five or fcs school, but he is horse $$$$ as a oc for a power five school like Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [4276]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 11:47 AM
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Liars figure but figures don’t lie.
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Freshman [-79]
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Yeah, so who are the QBs in this comparison?
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:05 PM
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There are no effective offenses without a QB. It doesn't really make sense to look at offensive stats without considering the constraints of of the most important player in the field.
What if we insert that other QB? I'm thinking much better output from our offense.
It's not scheme. It's execution from the most critical position.
I maintain, milking our QB constraints for 10 wins and shooting for 12, well, it's been like squeezing water out of a stone.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Yeah, so who are the QBs in this comparison?
Nov 30, 2022, 12:25 PM
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3 star former buffalo player Kyle Vantrease
We're not talking some talented QB. 0 offers from Power 5 teams.
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Freshman [-79]
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Does he or does not deliver the ball on time and on target?
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Nov 30, 2022, 12:48 PM
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Bingo.
Put DJ in that offense. Same output? Let's be real here.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Does he or does not deliver the ball on time and on target?
Nov 30, 2022, 12:58 PM
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I don't think he delivers any more on time or on target than DJ does. Look at his stats in buffalo. They're basically the same as DJs
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Legend [19586]
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Letterman [274]
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Re: A tale of two OCs
Nov 30, 2022, 12:16 PM
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The effort some of you put into meaningless posts on an anonymous message board is crazy.
Get a life.
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Legend [19586]
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Yet you're here reading them and replying?***
Nov 30, 2022, 12:26 PM
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Orange Blooded [3047]
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Re: Yet you're here reading them and replying?***
Nov 30, 2022, 1:00 PM
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When we talk about coaches, don't forget a big part of their jobs is recruiting. Some say we have great talent and if that's the case, it's because of these same coaches. Who brought 9th grader Trevor Lawrence in to talk with Dabo?
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All-In [40100]
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well stated. I've thought this many times.
Nov 30, 2022, 2:05 PM
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You can't punish coaches for bringing in a Watson or a Lawrence and then say they only won b/c they were great. That's ignoring a big part of the job.
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