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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 4, 2023, 8:53 AM
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Conspiracy to Defraud the United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.
The following elements, if met, are sufficient for conviction:
1. Defendant and one or more other persons agree to commit a crime (in this case, fraud; see #4).
2. At least one person commits an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
3. Knowledge that the plan was unlawful.
4. Fraud: To impair, obstruct, or defeat the lawful function of any governmental department through dishonest or deceptive means, including forged documents and false statements.
(Like attempted crimes, conspiracies are crimes regardless of whether they were ultimately successful.)
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Paw Master [17331]
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Is this similar to the “Russian collusion” fraud and
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:16 AM
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subsequent impeachment?
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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No, Trump wasn't able to obstruct his way out of this one.***
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:17 AM
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Paw Master [16293]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:20 AM
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It is interesting that Pence has come out more forcefully against Trump's actions leading up to and on January 6th. I guess he has figured out that playing nice isn't getting him anywhere, but coming out against Trump will not help him either at this point.
My question is what do you all think would have happened had Pence done what Trump had asked? I don't think that would have been a pretty picture. Would military leaders have ushered Trump out? Would there have been massive unrest in our streets? I think total chaos would have reigned and Trump would have been ultimately removed, but until that time things may have been very interesting.
If the VP basically has the power to overturn an election should the President fail to prove his case of a fraudulent election, there is little point in having elections or a legal system.
Thankfully Pence followed the law or a precedent from which there would have been no return would have been established.
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Paw Master [17331]
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No. The certification would have been delayed
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:42 AM
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while allegations were investigated. No one was asked to do anything not protected by the constitution.
But the gd idiot masses continue to foment.
Our country is a joke.
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Paw Master [17331]
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¥¥¥¥ case in point***
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:50 AM
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Campus Hero [13611]
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Ring of Honor [21676]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371 ] |
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I just wish Pence had forcefully come out right after the incident firing at Trump from both barrels. Things get very different when even your VP comes out confirming to everyone that Trump broke the law. The problem seems to have been like everyone else he was afraid of "the base" and was still harboring some illusion he could still somehow be president someday.
It's like: dude. There were just hundreds of MAGA loyalists roaming the halls of Congress shouting: "Hang Mike Pence!" Fair or foul, these people bit hard on the lies and they aren't ever going to elect you. So since there's no advantage whatsoever to doing the politically expedient thing, do what you did when things got rough: stand up and be counted, and stand your ground, whatever anyone says about you.
It's a little late now. Donald has now re-asserted his dominance over the base, and he's going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into court while running for president as the GOP nominee. That puts America - and the world - in a very odd and precarious position.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 5, 2023, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371 ] |
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The VP doesn’t have the power to overturn the election.
He has the power to challenge the slate of electors which any given state submits as their ‘vote’ for president.
Challenging a state’s slate if electors leads to legal action. This goes directly to SCOTUS for adjudication.
SCOTUS then determines, among other things, whether that state followed their own state laws as far as their election process.
At least this is how I understand it.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
Aug 5, 2023, 6:44 PM
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It never goes to SCOTUS, dummy. If electors are challenged successfully in the joint session, the House and Senate vote separately to accept or reject the electoral slate from that state. If they both reject, then the alternate slate is accepted.
They literally did this 5 or 6 times in 2020 when the traitorous Trumpers in Congress kept challenging.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Not so fast, Scooter
Aug 5, 2023, 8:29 PM
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You are incorrect. Refer to the very recent SCOTUS ruling Moore vs Harper, which pertained primarily to state legislatures vs state courts with respect to district maps. The sun-part of that decision reminds us about a secondary aspect that is relevant to Bush v Gore 2020.
Two different C&P’s from the publication Slate. The last sentence in the 2nd paragraph of this first C&P is the first salient point:
JURISPRUDENCE
There’s a Time Bomb in Progressives’ Big Supreme Court Voting Case Win
BY RICHARD L. HASEN
JUNE 27, 202312:44 PM
“Kagan in her robe, frowning, with Supreme Court opinion text superimposed behind her.
Justice Elena Kagan won the battle. It’s unclear about the war. Photo illustration by Slate. Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images.
This is part of Opinionpalooza, Slate’s coverage of the major decisions from the Supreme Court this June. We’re working to change the way the media covers the Supreme Court. Sign up for the pop-up newsletter to receive our latest updates, and support our work when you join Slate Plus.
It is indeed a cause for celebration that the United States Supreme Court, on a 6–3 vote in Moore v. Harper, rejected an extreme version of the “independent state legislature” theory, which could have upended the conduct of elections around the country and paved the way for state legislatures to engage in election subversion. But after the celebration comes the inevitable hangover, and with all the hoopla, it is easy to miss that the Supreme Court has now set itself up, with the assent of the liberal justices, to meddle in future elections, perhaps to even decide the outcome of future presidential elections (as it has done in the past). Chief Justice John Roberts drove a hard bargain.”
(*). Salient point. Stare decisis. SCOTUS has previously weighed in with rulings on a state’s presidential election process.
Xxxxxxx
Now, for the 2nd C&P.
“After the Florida court ordered the recount, Bush appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. A majority held that the recount ordered by the Florida court violated the equal protection clause because there was no guarantee that uniform standards were used or could be used to conduct it. But three justices—Chief Justice William Rehnquist, joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Thomas—adopted this milder version of the independent state legislature theory at the time. In essence they argued that the Florida court’s interpretation of the Florida election statutes to allow this recount was so far from ordinary statutory interpretation that the Florida court was essentially making up the law for itself, and taking away the legislature’s power to decide the rules for conducting federal elections in the first instance.
It is this milder version of the independent state legislature theory that the court embraced in Moore. It did not spell out its contours, and whether to adopt the Rehnquist Bush approach or some other approach. But Kavanaugh, in a concurrence, endorsed the Rehnquist approach and said that in engaging in this second-guessing, federal courts need to compare election law in the state in earlier decisions. The greater the deviation, the more likely they’d be to find a violation of the independent state legislature theory.”
(*). Two salient points here.
(1). SCOTUS of 2023 recognized the opinion of SCOTUS of 2000 as the legal precedent. In the Bush v Gore precedent, SCOTUS stepped in to overrule a State of Florida court ruling in which the FL Supreme Court had diverged so widely from FL state election law as to be ‘making things up’ and thus taking away the FL legislature’s power to establish election laws for FL.
(2). SCOTUS of 2023, which has the same makeup as 2020 & 2021 with the exception of liberal SCOTUS justice Stephen Breyer being replaced with radical leftist Kentanji Brown Jackson, essentially confirmed Bush v Gore by their Moore vs Harper ruling.
(***). Summary: Yes indeed, had Pence not been a Brutus to Trump’s Caesar, then a Pence ruling against seating the electors from PA, WI, and AZwould not have, at that moment, overturned the election. A plea would have been made by the Democrats, to which the SCOTUS would have agreed to hear on an immediate emergency basis, just as SCOTUS would had done back in 2020 in Bush v Gore.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: Not so fast, Scooter
Aug 6, 2023, 5:18 AM
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You is confused about pre- and post-certification by the states.
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TigerNet Elite [71497]
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Banana Republic
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:34 AM
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Kangaroo court. Whatever you want to call it….they are putting more work into a misdemeanor charge than I have ever seen. Millions spent for a 93 day misdemeanor. Lol.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: Banana Republic
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:41 AM
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They are felony charges.
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Oculus Spirit [43176]
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When you are the political party in charge you get to use
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:50 AM
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the DOJ as a weapon to attack your adversaries. Don't be surprised when it flips 180 on you.
I don't like Trump one bit, but this is clearly political and shady and ####.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: When you are the political party in charge you get to use
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Aug 4, 2023, 9:55 AM
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Did you read the indictment? Do you think it fails to present one or more of the elements of Count 1?
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Campus Hero [13336]
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They have no case.***
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Aug 4, 2023, 3:53 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Have you read the indictment?
Aug 4, 2023, 4:15 PM
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If you aren't just BS'ing, what's your answer: Which of the elements of Count 1 did they fail to allege?
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Oculus Spirit [43715]
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Oculus Spirit [43176]
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So we should be expecting Biden indictments soon
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Aug 5, 2023, 6:56 PM
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most corrupt son of a ##### in my lifetime
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Oculus Spirit [43715]
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I don't oversee the DOJ.***
Aug 7, 2023, 10:06 AM
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: I don't oversee the DOJ.*** Democrat DoJ standards
Aug 7, 2023, 8:40 PM
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So it’s good news for you that the DoJ has gotten, not off all of the way off its ash, but to just be half-ashed by going after the Republicans.
Being half-ashed is the epitome of the Democrat party’s policies and their federal bureaucracy.
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TigerNet Elite [71497]
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Re: Banana Republic
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Aug 4, 2023, 10:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: Banana Republic ] |
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Good luck with that. Hope you all get what your team desires.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: Banana Republic
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Aug 4, 2023, 10:24 AM
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Did you read the indictment? Do you think it fails to present one or more of the elements of Count 1?
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Campus Hero [13611]
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You realize it was Trump that caused the republic
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Aug 4, 2023, 10:25 AM
[ in reply to Banana Republic ] |
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to be banana-y, right? He’s the one that devalued the office trying to be a tin pot dictator.
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Orange Blooded [3230]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 4, 2023, 4:51 PM
[ in reply to Banana Republic ] |
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Trump is facing multiple felonies. He isn't going to jail, but he could be a felon in the future.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 4, 2023, 5:08 PM
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I think he might be going to jail.
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TigerNet Champion [121424]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 5, 2023, 4:04 PM
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ditto
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Ultimate Tiger [33548]
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Re: Banana Republic
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Aug 5, 2023, 5:44 PM
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Are you sure execution is off the table?
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TigerNet Champion [121424]
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don't be silly
Aug 6, 2023, 10:14 AM
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this is based on Trump violating the terms of his pre-trial release, not once, but 2x. First, he revealed info from the discovery hearing on truth social, and yesterday he intimidated a witness, mike pence, on the same platform. The 2nd could easily land him in jail until the conclusion of the trial, and Jack Smith has already petitioned the judge on the first.
It is almost like he is trying to get himself locked up in the most inspector Clouseau-like fashion possible, but still can not manage to pull it off.
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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Meanwhile, Pence is out here talking chit about T-Rump...
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Aug 8, 2023, 12:42 AM
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He's suppose to be a major witness in an upcoming trial. You don't see that as prejudicial...?
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 5, 2023, 6:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Banana Republic ] |
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The woman and her corroborating witness who claim Trump raped her at 13 in Epstein's apartment might reopen their case. Trumper death threats made them suspend the case last time, but the sworn affidavits are still in the public record. She's running out of time to try a lawsuit - rumor has it that Satan has a room ready and waiting for Donald.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 5, 2023, 8:42 PM
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B.S. about the Trump / Epstein Island ‘evidence’ via a real witness.
Epstein Island is the biggest forever secret with respect to political figures and America’s power players of recent times. There is a reason why no true evidence is allowed out of Epstein Island:
Too many big wigs were involved in abuse of minors.
The proof of this is in the silence from FBI, DoJ, political figures, and power players. This is a pact among thieves. All it takes is to turn one ‘conspirator’ into a snitch. Then Epstein Islanders become exposed.
As the old saying goes, there is no honor among thieves. If Trump were truly involved and no one else was, then Epstein Island allegations about Trump would have led to indictments and conviction LOOOONG ago.
Did Orange Man do it? No one will ever know, just as they will never know if Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Alan Dershowitz, etc etc etc did it on Epstein Island. In the absence of evidence, allegations about Trump by ‘credible’ govt witnesses reek of another Col. Alexander Vindman or Christopher Steele type evidence.
Good luck, though, with propagating the next TDS Orange Man Bad fairy tale.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: Banana Republic
Aug 6, 2023, 5:24 AM
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It was in Epstein’s NYC apartment on one of the occasions that the party was only Donald, Jeffrey, and a group of women and girls. The victim and witness both gave sworn affidavits. Epstein and Trump nearly got into a fight over it because Jeff was saving that victim for himself. That’s part of the testimony.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Uncorroborated 1994 suit vs DJT dropped 2016 - exhumed?
Aug 6, 2023, 2:41 PM
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Sounds like E.Jean Carroll wannabe’s are crawling out of the grave.
Is this the one you’re referencing? C&P from a Twitter post from March 2023. Summarizes allegations against Trump from 1994, with Jeffrey Epstein.
(Epstein’s relationship with Trump became permanently estranged since 2004; he was more than glad to release whatever alleged dirt he had on Trump since then. If Epstein, who had all of the blackmail and revenge material at his fingertips, could not produce damning evidence against Trump for Trump’s purportedly multitudinous crimes, then why haven’t these crimes come to light and been successfully prosecuted before. Waiting until 2023 to exhume the lawsuit corpse doesn’t exactly scream ‘credibility’ at this juncture.)
Xxxxxxxx
She was 13, a virgin.
Trump went 1st
Tied her up with nylons.
Epstein 2nd... complained to her "i should have been 1st"
Trump went 3rd and 4th, violently beating her.
Charges dropped 5 days before 2016 election.
Father & Family threatened
Image
Xxxxxxxxx
Also, comments (another C&P), this time from ‘fair & balanced’ MSM - BuzzLoving - opinion by mills. (Below)
“One lawsuit never got enough attention and was quickly dropped since the alleged victim was a 13-year-old virgin.
The charges were dropped in 2016, and the woman remained Jane Doe or Katie Johnson, likely her real name. However, the severity of this case was never truly examined since the elections occupied the media.
Wild and Graphic Accusations
The initial allegations, brought by attorney Lisa Bloom claimed Johnson was violently raped in 1994. The assault allegedly happened when the 13-year-old attended org..s organized by Jeffrey Epstein.
Epstein allegedly lured Johnson by promising her a modeling career. In the withdrawn lawsuit, Johnson claimed she met Trump four times.
One encounter was described as a “savage sexual attack.” Allegedly, Johnson “loudly pleaded” for the former president to stop when he started “violently striking Plaintiff in the face with his open hand and screaming that he would do whatever he wanted.”
In the allegations, Jane Doe said she was not allowed to tell anyone or would disappear like Maria. She explained that Maria was a 12-year-old girl also allegedly violated by Trump, never to be seen again.”
Xxxxxxx
Summary: Salacious garbage about Trump has been overdone. Same as the ‘Trump is Hitler’ trope. 1994 allegation and subsequent uncorroborated lawsuit that was dropped before 2016 election. So this is the latest sequel in the ‘We got Orange Man Bad this time’ saga? Sorry, but these overhyped old ‘ Trump is bad’ salacious lawsuits have lost their credibility except to those who remain apoplectic at the thought of Trump.
Golden showers aspect of Russia collusion hoax. E.Jean Carroll (non) rape. Now this one, the 1994 uncorroborated lawsuit that was dropped in 2016. It could have easily been corroborated by Epstein, whose relationship with Trump came to a permanent end in 2004. Epstein was a clever guy. What kept him from testifying against Trump? Had he testified against Trump in exchange for a Devin Archer type immunity deal, then he’d have been out of prison immediately and become an American hero to the left.
Believe what you want, as people will do. But this dog won’t hunt.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: Uncorroborated 1994 suit vs DJT dropped 2016 - exhumed?
Aug 6, 2023, 4:48 PM
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It’s scary. All the fetid human waste that defends Trump at any cost.
The man is pure trash and a traitor to this country.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: Uncorroborated 1994 suit vs DJT dropped 2016 - exhumed?
Aug 7, 2023, 8:43 PM
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Good catch. I omitted the adjective “credible.”
There is no corroboration from a credible witness.
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Campus Hero [13551]
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Hillary said "muh Russians" and Antifa attempted to burn DC
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Aug 4, 2023, 4:34 PM
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to the ground. Why wasn't this applicable then?
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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Ah... It was just a "Uni" Party. (and Barr is a POS)***
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Aug 4, 2023, 4:40 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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TigerNet Champion [121424]
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 5, 2023, 11:28 AM
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The indictment presupposes that Trump knew that he lied about his belief that he didn’t lose the election. It doesn’t matter how many times experts tell Trump that he is wrong. As long as Trump believes that he was right, then no fraud had been committed. I’ll go back to an analogy which I’ve used several times in recent days.
An atheist does not believe in God. Everyone around him says that God exists and to believe in God. Despite the views of others, the atheist continues to not believe in God.
Trump does not believe he lost the election. Everyone around him says he lost the election. Despite the views of others, Trump continues to believe that he didn’t lose the election.
Neither the atheist nor Trump have the foundation for fraud. Both believe that they are correct.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 5, 2023, 2:17 PM
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This is one of the better defenses of Trump, as far as I can imagine, even though it's more than clear (if the allegations in the indictment are proven) that Trump knew the truth.
Problem is, he can be guilty even if he thought he should have won.
Consider this analogy from the year 2000: Al Gore thought the Supreme Court should have ruled in his favor and declared him the winner in Florida. Remember, Gore was vice-president at this time, and was thus in the same position as Mike Pence in terms of counting the electoral votes. But Gore's belief, even if genuine, would not have entitled him to refuse to count the electoral votes in favor of himself over Bush.
Which is why Gore said this upon losing his court challenge. Compare this to what Trump did.
Over the library of one of our great law schools is inscribed the motto: "Not under man, but under God and law." That's the ruling principle of American freedom, the source of our democratic liberties. I've tried to make it my guide throughout this contest, as it has guided America's deliberations of all the complex issues of the past five weeks. Now the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. Let there be no doubt, while I strongly disagree with the court's decision, I accept it. I accept the finality of this outcome, which will be ratified next Monday in the Electoral College. And tonight, for the sake of our unity as a people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.
I also accept my responsibility, which I will discharge unconditionally, to honor the new president-elect and do everything possible to help him bring Americans together in fulfillment of the great vision that our Declaration of Independence defines and that our Constitution affirms and defends.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 5, 2023, 5:14 PM
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Challenges to the 2000 election were given every avenue to get worked out.
SCOTUS finally weighed in and said Bush won.
No such process was afforded to Trump.
All this said, Gore did not believe that he lost. Rather, he gave up the fight after SCOTUS said ‘game over’
The details about Gore’s challenge and Trump’s challenge are not close.
(*). Still, Trump did not defraud, or attempt to defraud, the USA or anyone.
I’ll say it again. It may end up in the SCOTUS, but Trump will be completely exonerated of all fraud indictments. This entire indictment is simply political theater with the dual objective of distracting attention from Biden’s crimes and to exhaust Trump.
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
Aug 5, 2023, 6:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371 ] |
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The problem with your logic is that for Trump to use the idiot defense, he would have to testify himself. Only he can testify that he truly believes something so ridiculous. Then, once he's on the stand it's count after count of perjury and likely some jail time in contempt.
Yes, he's an idiot. But he's not that big an idiot he doesn't know he lost the election.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Copernicus believed in heliocentricism / Trump believes …
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Aug 5, 2023, 8:58 PM
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Copernicus believed in heliocentric when all the other experts believed that the sun orbited the earth. Guess who was right … Copernicus or the ‘experts’?
Trump has basis for believing that the election was stolen.
(1). GA recount. SOS Raffensperger insisted that all had been done. No more Trump votes. However, earlier this year ~ 350 uncounted Trump ballots were found. Of course these ~ 350 votes would not have overturned the GA ballot harvested iden victory in GA. However, these additional ballots … found outside of the resources of the State of GA election infrastructure, gives credence that Team Raffensperger was not as thorough as advertised.
(2). Dominion Voting Machine errors. In 2022 Democrat primary for DeKalb County, GA primary for a county commissioner race, candidate Michelle Long Spears was blown out according to the vote count. Ms. spears requested a thorough recount and audit. Poof! Dominion Voting Machines had completely screwed up. Turns out that Ms. Spears won her primary race handily.
Arguments that these were two isolated incidents only means that these were two isolated incidents of election dysfunction THAT WERE CAUGHT. Trump could reasonably suspect that widespread problems of a similar nature had occurred.
(*). Trump does not have to be some nut for not believing that he had lost fair and square. Despite what the TDS crowd wants to believe.
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All-Time Great [90838]
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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1st impulse was he lost; video evidence = changed his mind
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:11 PM
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Trump believed that he was cheated out of the election.
Being cheated out of a win is different from believing that the loss was fair and square.
The plausible evidence of an election steal became clear with the security footage of the election counting in Fulton County, GA.
In this security footage, election monitors … during the counting process (I.e., feeding ballots into the vote counting machines.were evacuated from the building because of a water pipe break. The evacuation was justified in the interests of health and safety for the occupants of the election counting areas.
Shortly after the voting areas of the building were evacuated, the vote counting staff was readmitted to the vote counting area. However, the election observers were denied access.
During this interval of time when the election observers were denied access, the vote counting staff produced multiple boxes full of ballots that were previously out of plain view and fed those ballots into the vote counting machines.
(*). There is no honest reason to use a circumstance to prevent election monitors to witness the entirety of the vote counting process. It is not credible to categorize this as an ‘ooops my bad’ excuse.
(**). This video evidence is reason enough for Trump, whose FIRST REACTION may have been incredulity that he lost, to reverse course and recognize that the election was indeed fraudulent.
(***). Within two weeks after the election, Trump believed that he had won and began vigorously challenging the election. Therefore, his actions to challenge the election from long before J6 were not fraud. He truly believed that he had not lost the election; he believed that cheating awarded the presidency to Joe Biden.
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All-Time Great [90838]
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How do you know what he "believed"?***
Aug 8, 2023, 10:03 AM
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: How do you know what he "believed"?***
Aug 8, 2023, 11:28 AM
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Same as you don’t know what he believed.
I pointed out the reasonable scenario in which Trump may have had an initial impulse in which he believed a situation as being truthful, but, upon learning additional information, realized that his initial impulse was incorrect.
All of this time-line stuff matters.
Proving that Trump didn’t believe that he had won the election is beyond what truthful evidence can prove.
If the accused cannot be proven to have lied, then allegations of fraud are null.
Although the DC court and appeals court will probably twist the law to fool the jury into convicting Trump, SCOTUS will easily recognize that fraud had not been committed.
Trump will walk away without a legal scratch on him.
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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Every one of those charges could be applied to the RICO
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Aug 5, 2023, 2:55 PM
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case involving The Biden Crime Syndicate.
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Game Changer [2034]
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The courts are at your disposal, have at it.***
Aug 5, 2023, 3:00 PM
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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No they aren't and you know it. The DOJ is DOA...***
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Aug 5, 2023, 4:28 PM
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Game Changer [2034]
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Ah yes, everything is corrupt.***
Aug 6, 2023, 1:32 PM
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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I never stated "everything"... The current DOJ... YES!!!***
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:35 PM
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
Aug 5, 2023, 6:32 PM
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It's difficult for somebody like Trump. He is literally the "least American" president we have ever had.
A total of one ancestor, his father, was born in the US. And that's only because his grandparents were deported from Germany after moving back from NYC.
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Oculus Spirit [43715]
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Obama was Cambodian.***
Aug 7, 2023, 8:43 PM
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Athletic Dir [1155]
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Re: Obama was Cambodian.***
Aug 8, 2023, 12:25 AM
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He had a Kenyan father, but a mother with roots back to Plymouth. His grandfather served during WWII; other ancestors served in the revolution, civil war, etc. Fred Trump was a profiteer who took advantage of factory workers during the war. Nobody in Trump’s family has ever served in the US military or this country. All they’ve ever done is steal from it. Even his sister the judge.
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Ultimate Tiger [33378]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
Aug 6, 2023, 6:15 AM
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If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
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Clemson Conqueror [11637]
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Re: UNITED STATES v. TRUMP. Count 1: 18 U.S.C. § 371
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Aug 6, 2023, 6:13 PM
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Scenario: Trump’s chauffeur, who didn’t believe that Trump had won the election, but nevertheless encouraged Trump to fight the fraudulent election, acted in such a way to implicate Trump as not really believing that he had lost the election.
Even though Trump absolutely believes that he had not lost the election.
Therefore, because the chauffeur disingenuously agreed with (lied to) Trump, by statute that makes Trump (who had not lied) a co-conspirator in fraud. Yeah, right.
That’ll get Orange Man Bad … finally!
Vegas has betting lines on everything. Time to cash in your life savings, catch a flight to Vegas, and place the bet. Good luck.
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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Campus Hero [13336]
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It's funny
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Aug 6, 2023, 10:10 AM
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you lefties acting like there's anything serious about this case.
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: It's funny
Aug 6, 2023, 2:58 PM
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If you aren't just BS'ing, what's your answer: Which of the elements of Count 1 did they fail to allege?
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Campus Hero [13336]
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It's the alleging
Aug 7, 2023, 10:04 AM
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That's so frivolous as to be funny
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Ultimate Tiger [36217]
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Re: It's the alleging
Aug 7, 2023, 10:08 AM
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You're saying the allegations are frivolous? Trump's lawyer was on the Sunday shows this weekend. He didn't dispute most of the allegations.
Are there specific allegations you think are false?
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