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110%er [9669]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Charlottesville to stop celebrating Thomas Jefferson's b-day
Jul 3, 2019, 10:54 AM
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I dont mind it either way.
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Legend [15749]
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The idea that TJ is controversial is absurd to me. As an
Jul 3, 2019, 10:57 AM
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American, I will always celebrate his contributions to this country.
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Legend [17302]
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Agree***
Jul 3, 2019, 11:16 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Oculus Spirit [83135]
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Standout [347]
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All-In [47799]
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the Emancipation Proclamation was per se unconstitutional***
Jul 3, 2019, 11:38 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93687]
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Imagine what if today's American were measured on what...
Jul 3, 2019, 12:12 PM
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those men lived and believed, those who are represented by the statues and monuments being removed.
They gave gold and blood to build this nation on a foundation which was later realized a recognizing that blacks are human and should not have been enslaved. Is not the freedom of slaves found constitutional and does not the 'all men are created equally,' apply to blacks?
What about fatherless homes? Did they not provide and protect their children in that which was their present day while securing the lives and liberty of their families and ours in their one of a kind government of the people, for the people and by the people?
Today's America disgraces their memory, not only in removing icons which represent them but in removing the symbols of their primary goal which was to build a nation of freedom from kings, queens and others who oppressed the 'common man,' who refused them land, homes, property and freedom.
Kapernik is offended? Those men under that flag laid the foundation to free the idiot and he's blind to history because history is dead in that man's heart. All he can think about is himself. He would be toiling in some kings fields now and so would we if it hadn't been for those men.
Do I hate him, no, he and people with like attitudes are their own punishment.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Being a slave owner in Jefferson's day should not
Jul 3, 2019, 12:58 PM
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disqualify him from being honored and respected as a great man, just like being racist in Lincoln's day does not disqualify him (yet). Many great, honorable people at one time owned slaves or held what we now recognize as racist views.
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All-In [26968]
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I think too much is made over deciding how "great" someone
Jul 3, 2019, 1:15 PM
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is. Instead we should recognize that all of us are very flawed people who sometimes do great things.
We can talk about the great things Jefferson did, and also talk about the evil he perpetuated in owning people as property. Forrest Gump might say, "maybe it's both at the same time".
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All-In [26968]
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Whether we "celebrate" someone in totality...
Jul 3, 2019, 1:20 PM
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Is a personal decision. And if it's a public manner of celebration, then it's a decision that should be made by the public, or the designated representatives of that segment of the public.
If the people of Charlottesville do not want to celebrate Jefferson, in a public city-wide way, then why would I tell them they should? That city should do what its people want. And if this decision is not the will of the people, then they will find that out in the next election. And that's how it should work.
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110%er [9669]
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Obviously, they can do what they want. But the slippery
Jul 3, 2019, 2:36 PM
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slope exists now and is getting steeper. Charlottesville is choosing to stop celebrating the man who basically made Virginia. Owning slaves was something that was considered perfectly acceptable in his day. They're just caving to PCness - because someone has found a way to be offended by it...
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All-In [26968]
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You say slippery slope again, and I ask, a slippery slope
Jul 3, 2019, 6:10 PM
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to what end?
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110%er [9669]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: It is both at the same time. That's my point.
Jul 3, 2019, 7:51 PM
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Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves while admitting that slavery was evil. His political action on slavery was inconsistent.
He did not mince words about how wrong it was:
"Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Jefferson was tremendously conflicted over slavery.
Jul 3, 2019, 9:55 PM
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He knew it was wrong and wanted it abolished, but also believed, like most white people of the day, that blacks were inferior and doubted that the two races could live together, side by side as free people. He was wrong, but he did not see that as a viable option, and instead felt relocating freed slaves outside of the U.S. as the best solution. He never found a way to accomplish both.
Jefferson was a brilliant man of superior intellect; a visionary and thinker for the ages. He was also a flawed man, who got slavery wrong. Without Jefferson, slavery would still have flourished: however, there may have been no United States of America. If we as Americans, Americans of all races and religions, value the freedoms, rights, and prosperity we enjoy today, it's absurd not to recognize, respect, and honor the enormity of Jefferson's role.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Jefferson was tremendously conflicted over slavery.
Jul 3, 2019, 9:58 PM
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You're still free to visit Monticello. I don't think a city canceling a birthday party for a dead guy is going to have much of an effect.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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You know better.***
Jul 3, 2019, 10:48 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Imagine what if today's American were measured on what...
Jul 3, 2019, 1:06 PM
[ in reply to Imagine what if today's American were measured on what... ] |
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those men lived and believed, those who are represented by the statues and monuments being removed.
They gave gold and blood to build this nation on a foundation which was later realized a recognizing that blacks are human and should not have been enslaved. Is not the freedom of slaves found constitutional and does not the 'all men are created equally,' apply to blacks?
It didn't effectively apply to blacks until Brown vs Board of Education 1955, prior to that the controlling ruling was 1896 Plessy vs Furguson. These were education rulings but were the watershed that either prohibited enjoying other rights or opened the door to codifying other rights.
What about fatherless homes? Did they not provide and protect their children in that which was their present day while securing the lives and liberty of their families and ours in their one of a kind government of the people, for the people and by the people?
Today's America disgraces their memory, not only in removing icons which represent them but in removing the symbols of their primary goal which was to build a nation of freedom from kings, queens and others who oppressed the 'common man,' who refused them land, homes, property and freedom.
Kapernik is offended? Those men under that flag laid the foundation to free the idiot and he's blind to history because history is dead in that man's heart. All he can think about is himself. He would be toiling in some kings fields now and so would we if it hadn't been for those men.
Do I hate him, no, he and people with like attitudes are their own punishment.
I don't understand why it is so hard for white people to understand why black people aren't that excited by the founding of this country. America was founded by great men no doubt. But it was factually founded with only white men haveing any rights. White people want to just gloss over that. And by the way, who celebrates Jefferson's birthday?
"Laid the foundation to free the idiot? Are you serious? They laid the law that caused a Civil War that only began the process to free him. Furthermore, who the heck wears an American flag on their footwear anyhow. That's disrespectful, in my view, to the men of all generations that fought and died for our flag.
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All-In [34601]
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Do you believe half the #### you type?***
Jul 3, 2019, 1:11 PM
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All-In [26968]
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I think empathy is often lacking...
Jul 3, 2019, 1:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: Imagine what if today's American were measured on what... ] |
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I can't really do it genuinely, but I wonder what it's like for a person who, because of what they look like, would have been viewed as less than a person by historical figures, to see those historical figures put on pedestals. It's a complex thing, and I think a measure of grace is in order toward those who are conflicted about these figures.
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Oculus Spirit [93687]
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Re: Imagine what if today's American were measured on what...
Jul 3, 2019, 1:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Imagine what if today's American were measured on what... ] |
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I really don't care if blacks celebrate the founding of America or not. If they have a problem with who and how this country was founded that's not my problem. I have injun blood in my veins. More than enough to be qualified as a citizen of the Cherokee people.
Those men I celebrate founded a nation which handed blankets to native americans (injuns) which were contaminated with smallpox. Injun women, children including babies along with the elderly contacted the disease. Do I approve of such? No, of course not but I still celebrate being American often giving thanks to God that I'm here and not in even some EU nation or some 3rd world country.
Why, because Cherokee people along with other injuns would not be living under our constitution, our protection and with the wonderful American people. Trust that I use the term 'wonderful,' relatively and never assumed we are perfect but in comparison to any other people we are tops.
Imo, if men focused on what we did wrong this morning and how we are not going to duplicate those actions, attitudes and sins of then during the rest of the day, we'd have our hands full and not have time to cry about what happened 200 years ago far beyond our control.
If we Americans have a flaw it's that we are ungrateful for how well we have it. You've read the Bible, you know good and well where this comes from.
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CU Medallion [50635]
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All-In [26968]
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Slippery slope toward what?
Jul 3, 2019, 12:18 PM
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Why is this a bad thing?
The only lady who voted "no" on this said it herself: "“That birthday is still here. What he has done in the past is there.”" So what's the problem?
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Oculus Spirit [83135]
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Agree. It’s not like the pergolas are going to start
Jul 3, 2019, 12:45 PM
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crumbling.
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All-In [47750]
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Moving Monticello out of Albemarle County?
Jul 3, 2019, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Slippery slope toward what? ] |
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I hope TJ comes back to haunt these people...
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110%er [9669]
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She said that while pointing that the "yes" folks were
Jul 3, 2019, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to Slippery slope toward what? ] |
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trying to disregard history. And that's the slippery slope I'm talking about. Today - Jefferson's birthday - tomorrow...Independence Day, I guess. Because everyone didn't become independent that day - so we shouldn't celebrate it...right?
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All-In [26968]
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I think we should celebrate every day.
Jul 3, 2019, 6:09 PM
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And no one is trying to disregard history. Again, she said it herself: "That birthday is still here. What he has done in the past is there." She succinctly and accurately told us why a city not celebrating a birthday in an official way has nothing to do with disregarding history.
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110%er [9669]
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yes - but recognizing his birthday as an honor is gone.
Jul 5, 2019, 9:35 AM
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Basically saying, "You know what? What you did for us is no longer worth celebrating."
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CU Medallion [55787]
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This sh*t pisses me off. Cville wouldn't exist w/o TJ.
Jul 3, 2019, 2:40 PM
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######.
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Re: Charlottesville to stop celebrating Thomas Jefferson's b-day
Jul 3, 2019, 7:44 PM
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It's a little unfair to judge the actions of historical figures based on today's standards. Take the folks here and elsewhere who support president trump today. Some day their descendants will look back and rightfully feel shame for what their forefathers believed and supported...but hopefully they will be able to put things in the proper context and be thankful that those that came after were able to finally finish evolving into actual human beings.
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