Replies: 83
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All-In [49058]
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I've been saying this since I was old enough to read
Dec 6, 2018, 10:14 AM
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I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
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All-In [42197]
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Not even Christian and I can still whip that baby out.***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:31 AM
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All-In [47799]
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wow you quoted Obama word-for-word
Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM
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All-In [42197]
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Deep state!***
Dec 6, 2018, 11:12 AM
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Heisman Winner [111703]
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Re: I've been saying this since I was old enough to read***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:31 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Never heard it***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:33 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Southern Baptist detected***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:34 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Where I come from, buddy...
Dec 6, 2018, 10:34 AM
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The Southern Baptists are liberals.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Afghanistan?***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:35 AM
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All-In [26968]
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As Mark Lowry would say...
Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM
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Independent, Fundamental, Sin-Hatin', Devil-Stompin', KING JAMES ONLY BAPTIST!
HAAAAYMAAAN!
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All-In [26968]
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But I'd agree with most of it.
Dec 6, 2018, 10:37 AM
[ in reply to Never heard it*** ] |
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That little "c" in catholic would be important.
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Oculus Spirit [78892]
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probably cuz you are not Catholic***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM
[ in reply to Never heard it*** ] |
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All-In [47799]
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every mainline protestant church, every Catholic church, and
Dec 6, 2018, 10:39 AM
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every Orthodox church recites the apostles creed. Some Evangelical churches do as well.
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Oculus Spirit [78892]
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I believe you
Dec 6, 2018, 10:48 AM
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but maybe they don't use this line:
"the holy catholic Church"
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All-In [26968]
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They probably do...the lower case c
Dec 6, 2018, 10:50 AM
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makes it an adjective that means the universal church as one body (as opposed to a distinct local church).
Catholic with an upper case C is a proper adjective specifically for the Catholic denomination.
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All-In [47799]
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we usually omit "He descended to the dead."***
Dec 6, 2018, 10:35 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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I've heard it also as
Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM
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"He descended into hell"
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110%er [5508]
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Re: I've heard it also as
Dec 6, 2018, 6:32 PM
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We just switched to that
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All-In [40353]
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that's how i was raised
Dec 7, 2018, 10:55 AM
[ in reply to I've heard it also as ] |
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in middle school i said jesus went to hell and almost got in a shitton of trouble. these two girls immediately ran and told the teacher.
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110%er [6657]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: we usually omit "He descended to the dead."***
Dec 6, 2018, 11:26 AM
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Methodists say "He ascended into heaven."
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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...and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.***
Dec 6, 2018, 11:34 AM
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All-In [26968]
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This kind of thing interests me...
Dec 6, 2018, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to we usually omit "He descended to the dead."*** ] |
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Would that be because the church does not believe that he so descended, or that they'd just rather it not be a part of this particular recitation?
Ephesians 4:8-9 would be the basis for this clause.
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Oculus Spirit [83131]
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Didnt realize you were a holy fish eater.***
Dec 6, 2018, 11:00 AM
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Legend [15749]
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Interesting. I didn’t realize this but as a Catholic we
Dec 6, 2018, 11:06 AM
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recited the Nicene Creed. I’ll have to read up on the history.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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All-In [49058]
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We do that sometimes as well in the Episcopal Church
Dec 6, 2018, 11:12 AM
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as well. Depends on whether there is communion.
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All-In [47799]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I've been saying this since I was old enough to read
Dec 6, 2018, 3:23 PM
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Isn’t it true that Catholics believe that to obtain salvation you must observe certain sacraments? Faith in Jesus is not enough?
I could see why an evangelical Christian or someone like Trump who is supported by them would not recite it.
I wouldn’t recite it.
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All-In [49058]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Logical leaps, by JHop83
Dec 7, 2018, 9:10 AM
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Why would somebody who claims to be Protestant recite a creed that puts the Catholic Church on a pedestal?
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All-In [49058]
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It doesn't put the Catholic church on a pedastal
Dec 7, 2018, 10:34 AM
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it references the catholic church, not the Catholic church. It's a reference to the whole church with a small c.
It's a word that means "all embracing"
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: It doesn't put the Catholic church on a pedastal
Dec 7, 2018, 10:49 AM
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How can it be a reference to the whole church if it specifically says "catholic"?
Regardless I don't think whether a man chooses to participate in the public reciting of a creed indicates whether he's truly a Christian or not.
It seems very pious to me.
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All-In [49058]
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Because, there is a difference between big C and little c
Dec 7, 2018, 10:54 AM
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which I just explained, and you missed.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Because, there is a difference between big C and little c
Dec 7, 2018, 11:23 AM
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It is still referencing a specific denomination that has doctrinal beliefs that go against those that the typical evangelical Christian in America holds.
Which is why Trump didn’t recite it, I can guarantee you.
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All-In [49058]
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No, it's not...
Dec 7, 2018, 11:25 AM
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It just isn't. It's ignorance to say that it is. Go look up "catholic with a small c"
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: No, it's not...
Dec 7, 2018, 11:30 AM
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I’m just saying it says “catholic”, and that’s why Trump didn’t say it.
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All-In [49058]
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All-In [26968]
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I believe the most likely reason he didn't recite it...
Dec 7, 2018, 11:43 AM
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Is because he didn't know he was supposed to, having never been in that situation before. And probably because he thought it was dumb once it started.
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All-In [26968]
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Ford is right, Jhop, though the adjective "catholic"
Dec 7, 2018, 10:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: It doesn't put the Catholic church on a pedastal ] |
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is not commonly used. One example...the catholic epistles in the New Testament are the ones that are written to the entire church (James, 1 John, etc.) , not a specific local church. (1 Corinthians, Ephesians, etc.).
With a lower case "c", it's an adjective meaning "all-encompassing," not a specific type of church.
That said, most every Baptist I know wouldn't want to say that part of the creed, just because of the way it sounds.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Ford is right, Jhop, though the adjective "catholic"
Dec 7, 2018, 11:37 AM
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I wouldn’t recite it period whether the word was in there or not.
I would bet my last dime though that this was a calculated move by Trump to please his base because that word is in there.
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All-In [49058]
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LOL***
Dec 7, 2018, 11:38 AM
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All-In [26968]
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All-In [26968]
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You are really suggesting...
Dec 7, 2018, 11:48 AM
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#1, that the President knew the creed, and knew that the word "catholic" was in it? (That in itself is extremely unlikely)
#2, planned in advance of the funeral to do what he did, calculating how evangelical Christians would feel about it?
I mean. Dude. Come on, man.
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All-In [26968]
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The guy who said "Two Corinthians,"
Dec 7, 2018, 11:55 AM
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Thought to himself, "Hey, that Apostles Creed has the word "catholic" in the middle of it, and I know there are a lot of evangelical Christians who don't realize that it is an adjective and not a reference to the Catholic denominiation, so maybe I should sit this one out."
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: The guy who said "Two Corinthians,"
Dec 7, 2018, 11:58 AM
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HE HAD THE PIECE OF PAPER IN HIS HAND.
Everybody else around him was reciting it.
If he didn’t know what to do he needs to be removed from office immediately and checked into a mental health facility.
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All-In [26968]
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You're way overblowing it...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:01 PM
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He didn't say it because he didn't want to. Not for any religious or political reason. And no one cares, either. I have not seen a single person post about it on social media. I haven't even seen it on any news websites I go to (including Trump-hating CNN), which is why I didn't know what you were talking about until you posted a link.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You're way overblowing it...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:12 PM
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Ok, well it’s definitely overblowing it to say he’s not a Christian because he didn’t.
There are reasons other than his cluelessness that he may have chose not to.
To me if you look at Trump while they are doing it he seems intentional, not like he’s in lala land.
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All-In [26968]
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Who has said he's not Christian because he didn't say it?
Dec 7, 2018, 12:15 PM
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That's a ridiculous thing to claim. Thankfully, I haven't seen anyone suggest it.
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All-In [49058]
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I said he didn't say it
Dec 7, 2018, 12:17 PM
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because he's not Christian.
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All-In [26968]
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Yeah, the other direction.
Dec 7, 2018, 12:26 PM
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I don't think he said "I'm not a Christian, so I'm not saying it," because I doubt he even knew what the people were saying.
Before Jhop alerted me to the event, and I thought we were just talking in hypotheticals, I stated that I wouldn't expect him to say it, because he's not a Christian.
I'll go ahead and say this, too: the Obamas and Clintons next to them reciting it...I'd call 'em liars for having said it.
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All-In [49058]
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You're assuming that a guy who
Dec 7, 2018, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: The guy who said "Two Corinthians," ] |
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refers to communion as "having my little wine and eating my little cracker" and says it's probably a form of confession, because he just finished saying he has never asked for forgiveness from God because he just tries to do the right thing, is so nuanced in religious doctrine that he made that distinction?
It makes no sense at all.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You're assuming that a guy who
Dec 7, 2018, 12:14 PM
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All that was two years ago. Maybe he’s learned something.
Or maybe I’m just giving him too much credit but he became president by pandering to a specific base.
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All-In [49058]
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I disagree...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:19 PM
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he became president by appealing to a specific base who chooses to ignore that he's not pandering to them. Most of my evangelical friends who are not supporters of Trump are perplexed by the support he has among evangelicals.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I disagree...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:39 PM
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I'm perplexed by it as well and I've started threads stating that.
But for every person who is perplexed there seem to be a dozen who think he's a saint.
In the parking lot of most churches in the bible belt you'll find plenty of MAGA bumper stickers.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Logical leaps, by JHop83
Dec 7, 2018, 9:11 AM
[ in reply to Logical leaps, by JHop83 ] |
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And furthermore why are they doing this at a funeral? What does it mean? What’s the point?
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All-In [26968]
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No one should expect the President to talk like this...
Dec 6, 2018, 6:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: I've been saying this since I was old enough to read ] |
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He is not a Christian, by his own testimony.
I've seen him say some religious things when reading from a speech someone else wrote. But he doesn't know or care anything about it, and, mostly, doesn't hide that fact.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: No one should expect the President to talk like this...
Dec 6, 2018, 6:56 PM
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He’s not dumb. He knew if he didn’t recite this people would have something to say.
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All-In [26968]
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Why would the President ever recite this creed?
Dec 7, 2018, 6:44 AM
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My mind is boggled. In what context would he do it? In a press conference?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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All-In [26968]
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Oh, for heaven's sake. Who cares?
Dec 7, 2018, 8:58 AM
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(Not directed toward you...just the fact that somewhere out there thought this was important.)
I respect him more for not saying it.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Oh, for heaven's sake. Who cares?
Dec 7, 2018, 9:02 AM
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Me too. Maybe be actually knows something about the faith.
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All-In [49058]
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Are you agreeing with Prodigal?
Dec 7, 2018, 10:53 AM
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that the President is not a Christian, so there is no reason why he would profess his faith in Christ?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Are you agreeing with Prodigal?
Dec 7, 2018, 11:48 AM
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I don’t know if he is or not. I’d like to hear him say why he didn’t say it but I think I already know the answer.
My point is people screaming “he’s not a Christian he didn’t say the creed” are being shortsighted.
Trump has made this a forefront of his campaign. He didn’t suddenly forget that. He chose not to because of the controversy over the word catholic either to please his base or because he personally has convictions about it.
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All-In [26968]
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If you asked him why he didn't say the Apostolic Creed
Dec 7, 2018, 11:50 AM
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He would look at you and say "What in the blank is the Apostoric Cream? Make America Great Again."
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All-In [49058]
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Or...
Dec 7, 2018, 11:53 AM
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I like those movies, but I liked the original Rocky movies better
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Oh, for heaven's sake. Who cares?
Dec 7, 2018, 11:33 AM
[ in reply to Oh, for heaven's sake. Who cares? ] |
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He is such religious man you would think he would cherish the opportunity.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Oh, for heaven's sake. Who cares?
Dec 7, 2018, 11:39 AM
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Being a Christian is not about reciting religious creeds.
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All-In [49058]
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From Billy Graham
Dec 7, 2018, 11:42 AM
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"It is not Scripture, but it is a simple list of the great doctrines of the faith."
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: From Billy Graham
Dec 7, 2018, 12:16 PM
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I’m not a fan of scripted rituals.
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All-In [49058]
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I did not used to be...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:21 PM
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but there are times when I pray and feel inadequate to express what I am trying to express and fall back on something like the Lord's Prayer. I just try to concentrate on the verses and think about the words instead of just reciting the words.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I did not used to be...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:32 PM
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To be clear I think it’s a totally different thing when you do it personally or even in a church but in the context that it was done here I think it’s pretty meaningless and it’s not fair to judge someone on rather they do it or not.
I’ve been in church all my life and I’ve never seen this done.
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible speaks negatively about vain repetitions...
Dec 7, 2018, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to I did not used to be... ] |
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But that's in the context of the repetitions being the main focus. There's nothing wrong with reading, thinking about, and saying what someone else wrote, if it's good. We do it all the time with hymns and other songs. Certainly I doubt Jhop would be against "scripted" hymns (all of them are scripted).
Now, that said, some denominations, most notably Catholics and Lutherans, are much more liturgical, and of course there's a spectrum of liturgy as you get farther away from them down the denominational line, to the other end, where a Baptist church would not really have any of that sort of thing. Most Baptists would say, and I are one, liturgical services place to much emphasis on these sorts of recitations (to the point that they are vain repetitions), at the expense of free worship of God as His Spirit leads.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: The Bible speaks negatively about vain repetitions...
Dec 7, 2018, 3:45 PM
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Totally different with music.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Does saying it a lot make it true?***
Dec 6, 2018, 3:57 PM
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All-In [49058]
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Being true makes it true...
Dec 6, 2018, 4:53 PM
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saying it a lot is what you do when, like Trump says, he grew up in the Protestant church. I did not attend for several years during one part of my life, and still, first time back in the pew, it came right back to me.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Except for the 'being true' part, that's true***
Dec 12, 2018, 11:01 AM
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CU Medallion [55787]
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interesting sidebar on the "descended into hell (the dead)"
Dec 6, 2018, 7:45 PM
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bit.
As an adult APM has been mostly evangelical, non-denominational, or more conservative leaning churches without liturgies. Buy I was raised Lutheran and always knew this creed.
Anyhoo, a few years back we started going to a Lutheran church and eventually joined. When the pastor came to visit us I asked him where that "he descended into hell" bit is in the Bible? Turns out, it ain't really. One can just kinda interprelate that through reading a passage in 1 Peter 3:18-20.
If I'm paying attention on a Sunday when the creed is read (4 kids, sometimes I am distracted) I don't say this part. It's not strictly biblical.
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All-In [26968]
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Ephesians 4:8-9***
Dec 7, 2018, 6:44 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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The average Baptist can find that passage within 5 mins.
Dec 7, 2018, 8:59 AM
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I fear most pastors, preachers and teacher read more about the Bible than they read the Bible.
'...If ye continue in my word then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free.' John 8:31 from memory so I may have missed a word or two.
I understand continuing in God's Word is more than just reading it but reading it is certainly a part of continuing in His Word.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Do you believe it?***
Dec 6, 2018, 9:39 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Still waiting.***
Dec 7, 2018, 9:00 AM
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All-In [49058]
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Believing is more important than saying it.
Dec 7, 2018, 2:24 PM
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I appreciate that.
I don't know if Trump believes it or not. Of course I don't know whether or not anyone else on that row believes it or not either. It's above my paygrade to judge.
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