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Topic: What Child is this?
Replies: 149   Last Post: Dec 29, 2016 8:57 AM by: WiFied
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Replies: 149  

What Child is this?

[89]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:30 AM
 

“What child this this, who, laid to rest on Mary’s lap is sleeping?” This is the great question of Christmas. Every person must answer for himself or herself. And yet it is not a subjective question at all. The answer is a matter of the most astonishing fact in history.

What child this this? The child is Almighty, Everlasting God in infant flesh. He came into the world to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Are you one of the persons for whom he came? Every person must answer for himself or herself. For those who answer in truth, He is the pathway to eternal life in the Kingdom of God. And once you enter God’s Kingdom, you will find that your name had been written there before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

Dying sinners rejoice! Look at the holy child, knowing nothing. Yet all that is belongs to him that your conscience should not fear, but take comfort in him. To me there is no greater consolation given to mankind than this, that Christ became a man, a child, a babe, playing in the lap of his most gracious mother…
..Who is there, whom this sight would not comfort? Now is overcome the power of sin, death, hell, conscience, and guilt, if you come to this gurgling babe and believe that he has come, not to judge you, but to save (Martin Luther).


Re: What Child is this?

[25]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:37 AM
 

Wow! Great Christmas message. The Gospel! This goes right along with it:

We confess the mystery and wonder
of God made flesh
and rejoice in our great salvation
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

With the Father and the Holy Spirit,
the Son created all things,
sustains all things,
and makes all things new.
Truly God,
He became truly man,
two natures in one person.

He was born of the Virgin Mary
and lived among us.
Crucified, dead, and buried,
He rose on the third day,
ascended to heaven,
and will come again
in glory and judgment.

For us,
He kept the Law,
atoned for sin,
and satisfied God’s wrath.
He took our filthy rags
and gave us
His righteous robe.

He is our Prophet, Priest, and King,
building His church,
interceding for us,
and reigning over all things.

Jesus Christ is Lord;
we praise His holy Name forever.

Amen.


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:13 PM
 

May the Lord bless you and keep you. He is the reason we must keep Christ in Christmas! He took away our sin by his death upon the cross as God's most precious gift to all humankind.

May each herein be blessed by grace and know the joy and wonder of Christ's salvation.

Merry Christmas!


Amen

[12]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:14 AM
 

and Amen.


Wonderful Post

[12]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:49 AM
 

Thanks for remembering the reason for this season. Happy Birthday Jesus!!!

2019 white level member

Re: What Child is this?

[9]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:52 AM
 

Yep points for all on these posts. Another AMEN !

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Re: What Child is this?

[5]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:55 AM
 

nonsense! Christmas is about Santa, overlighted trees ??, presents and stuff


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 12:10 PM
 

Lol- u so bad Tony.

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Re: What Child is this?

[9]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:43 AM
 

To God be all the glory in the church and in all the world! Love this!


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 5:51 PM
 

And don't forget all the pagan stuff like how this isn't even when Christ was born. Lol.


Re: What Child is this?

[4]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 6:31 PM
 

Celebrating the birth of Jesus and not knowing His actual birthday is pagan? No sir, you've been misinformed. Actual Christians celebrate His birth, and know what His birth means to us sinners. Society has commercialized His birth and made it pagan. Just letting you know not to lump everyone in the same group. Take care.


actually, it was his death that saved us all. His birth

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 7:58 PM
 

Was just how he got here in order to pay the ransom. But his death is much more significant.


Re: actually, it was his death that saved us all. His birth

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:22 PM
 

I won't argue that. I'll just say this..
Incarnation "birth" God with us.. Necessity
Righteous sinless life... "lived in our place" Necessity
Death... Our debts payed for us.. "necessity"
Resurrection... The Father's approval of "Payed in Full" and proof Jesus is God.. necessity..
Ascension to right hand of God.. Making intercession for sinners, ruling King.. "necessity"
In actuality if we celebrated all these it'd be fine by me!! Take care my friend! Hope my tone never came across argumentative.


Re: actually, it was his death that saved us all. His birth


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:08 PM
 

True, all those things were necessary if for nothing else but to fulfill prophecy. My concern is with the Christmas celebration (where the date was derived, the clearly non-Christian symbols and associations, and the commercialism and greed associated with it. I simply don't think Christ would approve when he clearly taught against such practices.


Re: What Child is this?

[7]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:52 AM
 

Amen! Every knee will bow to this savior Jesus Christ! Merry Christmas ??!


Re: What Child is this?

[4]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 1:03 PM
 

Amen!!


Re: What Child is this?

[3]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 1:08 PM
 

What GOOD NEWS IT IS!! Thanks for posting!!


blessed are those who receive his gift

[4]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 2:16 PM
 

with an open heart...

and are more than simply themselves.


The most precious gift ever, JESUS CHRIST our LORD!***

[5]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 5:09 PM
 



badge-donor-05yr.jpg

Amen and Amen!

[3]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 7:38 PM
 

Amen!


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 5:46 PM
 

good thing there was no Maury Povich show back then....


And elTigre, you felt compelled to comment on this .........

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:56 PM
 

because.........


Re: And elTigre, you felt compelled to comment on this .........


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 3:21 AM
 

just because


Re: What Child is this?

[6]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 6:55 PM
 

And blessings to all of you who aren't afraid to publicly profess your faith in a world where being a Christian can make you subject to ridicule.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 7:34 PM
 

personally, i'd never ridicule anyone for their beliefs... you could worship Isis, Oden or Zeus as far as I care. Don't confuse the ridicule of the religion you speak of in a public place.. get it? you can believe what you want, and I can believe its ridiculous. just as you can think i'm redic for not believing... everyone is welcome to their beliefs, no matter how silly they are


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:26 PM
 

You can't believe it because you refuse to.

There is plenty of evidence in this world that a God who cares deeply about humans and how we treat each other created it.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:39 PM
 

ok i'll bite what the evidence?

I dont refuse to believe.. as Ben Franklin said "I have looked for the evidence of God's judgement, and found none"

you believe this because you were taught to believe it. If you were born in a different place and time. You'd believe the religion that was taught to you


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:48 PM
 

Regardless of what someone is taught growing up they ultimately decide what they believe.

Ben Franklin may have come to that conclusion, but personally I see evidence for God in our complex universe and world, and also inside us as human beings. There is only one species out of the 8.7 billion that have lived that have the ability to reason and make decisions outside of just pure instinct.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 8:58 PM
 

so in other words there is no real evidence? faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

as far as the complexity of the universe...I admit I don't know all the answers, but why is Christianity doctrine the only and obvious answer? It could be Aliens like they say on Ancient Aliens. That makes just as much since and theres just as much "evidence"


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:08 PM
 

Christianity is not based on a feeling....

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was who he said he was, died and rose again.

When you look at all the facts together surrounding his death, the persecution of his followers by the Romans and the Jews and how quickly it spread despite this it's pretty clear that there was something very special about him.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:13 PM
 

there is no evidence that he rose again, except here say. If you want to take word of mouth spoken over 2000 years ago (if it was ever even said) as evidence then good for you, but its not
again I ask you for your evidence?


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:21 PM
 

The evidence for his resurrection is in the fact that his followers went to brutal deaths when they simply could have walked away. The kicker is that they were his ACTUAL followers, so they would have known if Jesus was not who he claimed to be. If he hadn't rose they never would have continued believing. Furthermore, the Jews easily could have produced a body if it wasn't true and stomped it out right there.

These things are not hear say, they are historical facts. There are plenty of books written on this subject that dive into the evidence.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:38 PM
 

so let me get this straight. because his followers stuck with their story, it must be true? there are prisoners on death row row right now, that still proclaim their innocence and will surely die for the crimes they were convicted. I guess we should call up all prisons to let the ones that say they are being truthful til the end, go free

again you are deducing and jumping to facts where there are none. IF JC's body was missing, does not mean it rose to the heavens. You have a narrative and you are cramming things into it to make them fit


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:44 PM
 

You missed the point and your analogy actually helps mine....

Those prisoners on death row are proclaiming their innocence for what? To keep on living.

The early Christians didn't have to die. All they had to do was stop worshipping Christ.

Ever heard of an inmate on death row being told that all they have to do is say they didn't commit murder and they can go free but refuse?

That's basically what you had happening with the early church.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:54 PM
 

again this is hear say. someone saw and heard these things wrote them down and you read them and was told about them probably before you could read (I was). NOBODY alive today was there and perhaps it happened just like this, but can you get your head around that some of these things were embelished? or didn't happen quite like this is it possible? I'm sure to you its not, coz the bible tells you so

truth is you don't know what these guys were or were not promised. perhaps they would have been killed anyway?

I find it funny that I am willing to say I dont know for sure, yet you are saying nope nope. I know the truth all the facts and it happened just like that. lol


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:01 PM
 

There is a process to determining whether a historical document is reliable or not, and the New Testament holds up better than any thing from ancient history. We know we have pretty much word for word what the original copies said. We know those original copies were written within a few decades after Jesus's death. We know that a religion sparked and grew rapidly despite tremendous opposition from both the Jews and the Roman Empire.

This is not just some dude in a cave writing a story that is discovered hundreds of years later. That's Islam....


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:17 PM
 

I have read many many things on the writing on the bible, and you are not completely correct. There is much discussion on who and when the bible was written. Some scholars don't even think the gospels were written by the apostles, and others that think they did, but far later than most religious folks would think.

I understand that religions grow quickly, esp a religion like Christianity, which had a facelift AD, and became a kinder gentler form of Jewdism, where at some point you'd have to kill everyone you know for something or other. People in general need something to believe in and these "storys" fit nicely with how we got here, and what happens after. But that in itself does not make them true


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:28 PM
 

You can find all sorts of claims on the internet about the Bible.

I remember reading one time that there were dozens of religions very similar to Christianity that were around before the time of Jesus. When I actually looked into credible sources on the matter it turns out it was false.

There are certainly questions surrounding the Gospels. But most of it is just nitpicking trying to find something wrong.

The apostles of Jesus started the first churches. We also have the early church writings that corroborate the Gosples and letters by Paul.

If you are truly interested in this stuff check out the books "Case for Christ" and "Case for the Real Jesus". They dive deep into the evidence I'm talking about and it's evidence from scholars and archaeologists that have scrutinized it from every angle.


Whatever gets you through the night is


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:31 PM
 

allright....its ALLRIGHT. Apostle John Lennon ??


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:46 PM
 

I've read this book, by Lee Strobel. I question many of his findings. He jumps to a lot of conclusions like you have been doing. As if there are only 1 answer to explain a mystery...and its written right here in the bible lol. I may as well just go ask my local minister, and go with whatever he says.

Fact is organized religion for most people leaves more questions that answers. Some move on passed those questions and roll with "faith". which is what I call suspension of reasonable thinking. Others need something more tangible. There is literally more proof of bigfoot than there is God...and no I don't believe in bigfoot


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:53 PM
 

Lee Strobel was an atheist before he sought answers....

There definitely has to be a leap of faith, but it can be a reasonable one based on facts.

The real facts come after you open yourself up to it and allow Jesus to work in your life.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:59 PM
 

well I understand that you believe that. again you talk about the apostles that would likely not believe, but JC showed himself and they believed. So why is it God/JC/holy ghost still show himself? If he did he'd have another believer right here, but he wont. As he didn't to anyone ever....

I have no problem with you believing what you want, but It always gets my attention when someone talks about "evidence and proof" then can't produce any other than some ancient text and the world oldest version of the telephone gane


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:16 PM
 

The telephone game is a bad example....Strobel's books mention that and clearly explain why. You're not the first person to make that comparison. ;)

But there's more than just the text, there's also the lives of believers today that offer proof. God does show him self today, to those who open theirselves up to it. It's no different than it was back then. There were people that saw the evidence right in front of their face 2000 years ago that still refused to believe it.

Again, this was not just ancient men sitting in a cave writing stories. There was an actual man named Jesus who wandered the countryside teaching people to love their enemies, die to self, etc. who died on a cross. There were real men who gave up their lives to follow him who claimed he rose from the dead and they went to their deaths for it. These are historical facts.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:37 PM
 

but you said he showed himself. the bible says he talked to them..like really talked. you are contradicting yourself

I never said there was not a Jesus. I believe there was. However, I do not believe in the immaculate conception or any of the magic and miracles that are stated nor the rising... I think he was a man that wanted to see a better world than the one he was in, and thats great. The rest is just stories, and myths.

JC is not the 1st profit or last. many people have claimed to be supernatural, and have had followers and even died for those followers.

I'm curious if Jesus did return how many so called christains would actually believe he was real? Or how fast he'd be swept away to the looney ben, or the fed gvt have him cornered in some compound


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:23 PM
 

You should realize that you don't allow yourself to believe. You refuse to believe it because of the method of its recording and transmission. Truth will not bow to yours or my demands for proof. Were you so demanding for proof in your history classes. I submit that you have believed many things told you based on ancient texts and word of mouth.

God has not said he would reveal himself visibly to you. He is not bound to reveal himself in that way to you because He is God not you. Your mind and will is in rebellion to Him and as a result you demand of Him that which you know He will not provide.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:44 PM
 

very good points. However, I don't believe EVERYTHING, that was taught in history class. I know that facts can be bent and twisted over time. The saying is history is written by the victor. I know that to be true. Things can be omitted, and embelished over time to make some bad things look good, or vice versa. On subjects that interest me, i've done further study and research, as I have with religion.

there is a narrative thats completely false, that non believers dont want to believe. In most cases that I know its the exact opposite


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:01 AM
 

God(Jesus) is revealing himself to you right now. By using Christian men to speak for him. All these facts we believe by faith. I know this sounds crazy to you but it's true. Sounds like you have a great head knowledge of Jesus but don't have the heart knowledge yet. This comes after you receive him as your savior. Then all the stories will line perfectly up for you. Just because we believe by faith doesn't make us better or dumber than you. It is just the peace we have in knowing we have eternal life with him. I promise you this. One day he is coming back and everyone on earth will see him. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess. Jesus Christ is Lord.

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:12 AM
 

i'm sure you believe that. my life experiences have shown mean that there is likely no God, at least not in the form that Christianity or any other religion want us to. I've seen NOTHING to show me any different at all. Ive seen horrible things happen to good people, including believers, seen kids suffer with desease, and injuries and death.

Im gonna say this now realizing it will offend many of you, but If there is a God he is a monster


Re: What Child is this?

[3]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:37 AM
 

Bad things happen to good people all the time. And vice versa. Satan is in charge of this world until Jesus comes back. Sin is alive and well. I'm a sinner. But thank God my debt has already been paid. We cannot know why God allows these things you speak of to happen. We aren't supposed to know. His thoughts ar not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways. I do know that everything is done for his glory. It's very hard if not impossible to accept if you don't believe. We have a peace that passes all understanding in these things. Which is, I know, a peace that doesn't make sense. This is one of the gifts of salvation. Here is an example in my life. My baby brothers wife got sick a few years and died. She was diagnosed with leukemia on October 1 and died October 23. She had a two year old and a 5 month old child. Why would God do this to my brother. Why his wife. Why their kids? This is a question that every one would ask. Believers and non believers. But she used the last 3 weeks of her life to share the gospel with others. There were people who accepted Christ at her funeral. And God continues to use her testimony in a foundation she set up before her death and many others have come to know Christ since her death. God used her death as a pathway for others to find their way to him. To God be the glory

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:47 AM
 

my heart goes out to you and your family for your loss.

I've often heard stories like this, where someone thinks god is using a tragedy to serve his purposes or spread his word, but I ask you is there a better more efficient way for him to spread his word? than to have such suffering. I understand that its "human nature" to try to make sense of senseless things, and when you start from "god is good" then of course you'll come to this conclusion

its more rational to think that if there is a god, that he has no interaction in our day to day lives, and that theres a complete randomness to things.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:16 AM
 

Thank you for your kind condolences regarding my brother and his family. You sound like a really nice guy and you are obviously very intelligent. You're a tiger fan. If I could be presumptuous, I think you are looking for answers. If not, you would not have commented on this thread. Even though you are not a believer, you expressed your differences in a kind and thoughtful manner. Not attacking with evil, mean spirited keystrokes as others do on this bored all the time. I know you think we are crazy and that's OK. I like to think I am very intelligent also. The things I believe would be mind bending if I didn't have Jesus. I had get my head out of the way and let my heart lead me. That is when Jesus found me. You are obviously very well read. I wish you would read the bible more with an open heart. I promise you that Jesus will speak to you. Either way, I hope you can find some of the answers you are looking for. But we will not know everything this side of eternity. No Jesus no peace. Know Jesus, know peace. Corny but true. Praying for you and yours. Let go and let God

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:29 AM
 

thank you for the kind words. I dont consider myself a mean spirited person, and no need to go to name calling or belittling someone for what they believe. I have been on the attack end of that from Christians also. the idea of everlasting peace and all that sounds great, who wouldn't want that vs the alternative according to the bible, lol

I understand that you can "get my head out of the way and let my heart lead me." but I can't do that. If there is a God, he should know that, as he created me and this head & brain. I'm a very curious person. Even as a kid, I'd ask my very religious grandma all sorts of questions that just didn't make sense to me.... most times it was God works in mysterious ways, which is basicly heck if I know


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:57 AM
 

I was once where you are. With Jesus or without Jesus, we will never know what we want to know this side of heaven. But the more we study as believers, the more he will reveal. Like you said, he created your inquisitive brain. He created us in his image. He put it in us to question life and it's meaning. But if we can accept that there is something out there greater than we are its a little easier. We just have to deny ourselves and follow him. This is not betraying your mind. It's just saying that there is a God and it's not you. Becoming a Christian doesn't make you dumber, it just gives you a different perspective to better understand the humanly impossible. Btw, the so called Christians that attack you and the others that don't believe like them is just as bad as the other way around. No, it's worse. They(we) should always strive to treat others the way we want to be treated. I think some guy from the bible said something sorta like that. God is love. Satan is alive and well and sinners such as myself do more to aid his work than advancing Gods kingdom. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone who reads this thread. I love you and Jesus loves you. Go tigers

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:09 AM
 

no offense taken. I'm not easily offended, esp on a board with people I will never even meet or know. I appreciate what you believe and you're welcome to it. I dont believe in any of it. I think its all made up and theres no evidence to say otherwise. I think this is all stories people tell themselves to make themselves feel better or better than others. To give some answers where otherwise theres none. Also to give some purpose in life and death...which is not so bad really.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:21 AM
 

I will agree that there is not a ton of physical proof. But most reasonable people readily accept historical facts. By using biblical claims and proven historical data, it is easy to deduce that the bible is true. Granted, faith makes it easier. While you say the bible is myth and can't be proven, not any of it can be disproved.

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:13 AM
 

there you go again with this "proof"

- what evidence do you have of the immaculate conception?
-jesus walking on water, turning it to wine? any other miracle?
- that he rose?
- that theres a heaven or hell?
there is none, just a big mystery and here say


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 6:23 PM
 

The proof is in my heart and mind. Where is the disproof?

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 10:25 PM
 

you know as well as I do it's impossible to prove a negative.

I can't prove there's no tooth fairy, Easter bunny, big pumpkin, Santa Claus, unicorns or leprechauns ....or your God


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 10:37 PM
 

I mean I cant *disprove any of those things


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 9:38 AM
 

So all those Christians who were burned at the stake, fed to lions, stoned to death, for simply not renouncing Christ did so because it "made them feel better"? Does that sound logical to you?

Being a Christian calls you to give up a lot of things in life, and I think that's what keeps people from believing at the end of the day. They throw up smokescreens like a lot of the arguments you've made here. They don't give their life to Christ because it feels good, they do it because they know it's what the Creator of this world wants them to do....


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:15 AM
 

I can't answer why people do the things they do, or dont do. thats between them and whatever god they believe in or lack there of


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:21 AM
 

There are basic facts of human nature.....

People don't die for something they know isn't true, and the apostles and early Christians absolutely would have known if Christ had not raised from the dead.

That's the difference in Christianity and all the other religions. It's not based on one mans revelation from God that you either believe or don't believe, it's based on the fact that Christ conquered death.

You can either believe these people woke up one day and decided to make up this story and go to their deaths for it, or you can believe Jesus really was the Son of God. The former makes no sense, the latter just takes an open heart and the faith of a mustard seed.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:32 AM
 

I understand that you believe these things you've read about and heard about. and no I don't think a person woke up and made these things up one day. However, I do honestly believe that these are stories, that started and got bigger each time it was told, and inked to paper. "the telephone game"

as I said before there is more proof of BigFoot than of god. Many more eyewitnesses, all over the world from some creditable people, footprints, etc. Do think Bigfoot is real? I guess someone has to tortured and stick to their story than you would?


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:10 PM
 

Stories with people being brutally tortured and murdered who would have known it was just a story.

You continue to ignore this fact.

I don't think anybody's going to the electric chair for simply refusing to say there's no Santa Claus.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:26 PM
 

you keep slinging around the word "fact" yet have presented none. and no the fact that some were willing to die for it does not make it true. or a fact. there have been many throughout history that have dies for their beliefs...and it doesn't make them any more or less true.

you unlike so many other Christians I know, want to talk "facts" and proof, where most others I've talked to readily admit there there really aren't any, and that its all about faith, and such. Perhaps you are 1 that can't just go on faith, so you have talked yourself into finding facts and twisting them around so they fit your story. I understand, I'd do the same thing, but just can't find any that work for me at the moment


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:54 PM
 

I didn't say it was a fact that Jesus rose from the dead, I said it was a fact that his followers went to their deaths proclaiming he did when they simply could have walked away. I said it was a fact that the Gospels we read today are pretty much exactly what those followers wrote down originally.

Those are historical facts.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:16 PM
 

you just continue to be misleading. Many scholars do not believe the gospels were even written by who they say they area. and you have no proof that they were written and not embelished over time. and no proof that what was stated actually happened. perhaps you are confused on what the word "fact " and "proof " means"


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:45 PM
 

No what has happened is you have been misled by someone in the minority of scholars that still question the authenticity of the Gospels.

We know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all 1st century documents. We know through textual criticism, a process that is used to analyze historical documents, that the copies we have today are pretty much the same as the originals with the only discrepancies being minor grammatical errors. We also know from secular sources that there was an uprising of Christianity and that it's followers were severely persecuted and martyred. We also have the writing of the early church which corroborate the New Testament.

It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus walked this earth, taught what the Gospels say he taught, and that his followers believed he rose from the dead and they died for refusing to renounce their faith.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:58 PM
 

I'm not sure how much you've researched, coz you seem to be just making things up...
here are some facts about the gospels
The historical reliability of the Gospels refers to the reliability and historic character of the four New Testament gospels as historical documents. Some believe that all four canonical gospels meet the five criteria for historical reliability; some say that little in the gospels is considered to be historically reliable.[1][2][3][4][5][6] Almost all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[7][8][9][10] but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[11] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[12][13][14] Elements whose historical authenticity is disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity of Jesus, the miraculous events including the resurrection, and certain details about the crucifixion.[15][16][17][18][19][20]

According to the majority viewpoint the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, collectively referred to as the Synoptic Gospels, are the primary sources of historical information about Jesus and of the religious movement he founded.[1][21][22] The fourth gospel, the Gospel of John, differs greatly from the first three gospels. Historians often study the historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles when studying the reliability of the gospels, as Acts was seemingly written by the same author as the Gospel of Luke.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:09 PM
 

Wikepedia first of all is a terrible source for anything, particularly textual criticism of ancient documents.

Second, all this says is that there is dispute among scholars about certain details....of course there is dispute over the resurrection, of course there is dispute over a virgin birth....

The Gospel of John does differ in style and it is correct the writer of Luke is believed to be the writer of Acts who traveled with Paul, who we haven't even talked about.

Some of Paul's letters are believed to have been written even earlier than the Gospels and they corroborate the central theme.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 5:09 PM
 

those are some of many faxes are in dispute about the Gospels. you say it's the details. but those details are pretty important if you want to throw around the word" fact ".

when it comes to the Bible there more questions and answers. and you seem to put those questions aside the don't agree with your story


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 3:25 PM
 

Another important historical reference to Jesus was by the Jewish historian Josephus who casually mentioned in his 1st century history of the Roman empire that Jesus was performing miracles.

He certainly had no interest in adding support to the davinity of Jesus, he was stating it as a fact and I assume as a witness about what was going on in the world around him. Or perhaps a first hand account from someone he trusted.

Best wishes to you and your family, congratulations that you are teaching your children to volunteer to help others. Sounds like you are being a good dad.


Has anyone heard


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 4:05 PM
 

the phrase: "The more you stir crap, the worse it stinks? By arguing with this dude you're allowing him to do what he wanted to do with his first post; stir up hate and discontent. Let sleeping dogs lie. They're a lot quieter that way.

2019 white level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 12:48 AM
 

Okay. I can't sit by and let you say incorrect things any longer. Just because you read a couple of books by one guy does not make you an expert on textual criticism, the historical Jesus, or early church history. The synoptic gospels and the fourth gospel, while being written in the first century, were almost certainly not written by any of the 12. The entire NT, as you probably know is written in Koine Greek, a language not spoken by folks in ancient Palestine. A recent study has shown that only 3% of people in Jesus' time were literate, and most of them were religious and government elite, of which Jesus' disciples were not.
As for the Manuscripts, there is NO possible way to conclude that our earliest copies of NT texts are similar to the original manuscripts. Codex Sinaiticus et al are the earliest ones available and they were produced centuries after Jesus.
Also, you seem to think that the Gospels tell only one story, when there are times the Gospels strongly contradict each other. How do you reconcile that?
As a religious studies academic, I highly encourage you to read books about these issues that don't have a slant(I.e. "Case for Christ) to them. I might recommend "Jesus Before the Gospels" by Dr. Bart Erhman.

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 1:45 AM
 

Thank you for introducing facts to this discussion


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 27, 2016 11:09 AM
 

" The synoptic gospels and the fourth gospel, while being written in the first century, were almost certainly not written by any of the 12. The entire NT, as you probably know is written in Koine Greek, a language not spoken by folks in ancient Palestine. A recent study has shown that only 3% of people in Jesus' time were literate, and most of them were religious and government elite, of which Jesus' disciples were not. "

That's a bold statement that they "were almost certainly not written by any of the 12". Is there any more proof for this other than your claim that only 3% of people were literate? Talk about jumping to conclusions....

Furthermore, only 2 of the 4 Gospels are attributed to one of the twelve. Mark is believed to have been close to Peter and Luke a historian and physician who traveled with Paul. It is clear the writer of Luke also wrote Acts which mentions Luke as the author.

"As for the Manuscripts, there is NO possible way to conclude that our earliest copies of NT texts are similar to the original manuscripts. Codex Sinaiticus et al are the earliest ones available and they were produced centuries after Jesus."

Actually that is what textual criticism does. The more copies of a document you have the better you can determine what the original text said, and there are thousands upon thousands of copies of the New Testament. There are fragments of Johns Gospel that are dated to the early second century that match up. We also have the writings of the early church fathers that quote from the New Testament. It's true that without a single copy of the New Testament you could reconstruct the entire thing just from the writings of the early church.

So even if we you were able to discredit the Gospels we still know what the early church taught and believed about Jesus Christ....

As for Bart Erhman, I've read some of his work and I've also read from scholars that strongly disagree with him. A small discrepancy that really isn't a discrepancy at all started his journey to becoming agnostic but it was really the problem of evil that led him away, it had nothing to do with the reliability of the Gospels. He claims there are up to 400,000 variants in the manuscripts, but most of these are minor spelling variations. Nothing that has anything to do with doctrine and it's actually surprising there aren't more considering the vast amount of manuscripts we have.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2016 11:26 AM
 

Here is a quote from Bart Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus:

"Bruce Metzger is one of the great scholars of modern times, and I dedicated the book to him because he was both my inspiration for going into textual criticism and the person who trained me in the field. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. And even though we may disagree on important religious questions – he is a firmly committed Christian and I am not – we are in complete agreement on a number of very important historical and textual questions. If he and I were put in a room and asked to hammer out a consensus statement on what we think the original text of the New Testament probably looked like, there would be very few points of disagreement – maybe one or two dozen places out of many thousands. The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament."


+1!***


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 2:34 PM
 




Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:13 PM
 

Why would you respond about a Christian post on a day that is prodomanatly celebrated as the birth of Christ by all christians? I mean really, if you don't believe in Christ why would you try to get others not to? If I seen a post made about atheist beliefs/non beliefs, Islamic beliefs, or Buddhist or whatever you are, I wouldnt respond and I would move along. I also wouldn't ramble on about findings and books and philosophers to try to prove a point of how wrong you are. Just move along and keep it to yourself. Christ is Lord!


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:31 PM
 

as George Costanza said "its not a lie,.... if you believe it"


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:52 AM
 

I wrote a previous reply to you saying that you must see God as good before you can accept him. While I'm typing that you reply to someone else describing Him as a monster. Don't you see we are now getting down to the heart of the matter? I could never believe in, or a better way to describe it, "trust" in a God i perceive to be a monster. That would be like trusting Hannibal Lecter to not eat me because he said he wouldn't if I believed in him.

Your view of God is distorted because of sin. You see things as man being innocent and sinned against by God when the truth is the opposite. God has been sinned against by all of us yet He became one of us to save us. It doesn't get more unmoster-like than that.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:59 AM
 

you really misread my post. I do not beleive there is a god..not any god of any sort. I would if there was some evidence as I do believe in things that are proven true. I did say because of the sheer cruelty in the world and other things that idf there is a god he is monster, and I stand by that. So IF proven true, I'd still believe hs is real even if I didn't like the things he does or lets happen. hope that makes sense


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:28 AM
 

I read your post correctly. You don't believe there is a God but if there is one he's a monster. Got it.

My point goes back to the 1st thing I said to you. You know there's a God, but you prefer there not be. We have already established that you will not believe based on your established criteria. Criteria that you do not invoke for belief in other areas like history. The proof you require is your trump card to reject Gods existence and judgment.

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”
??Romans? ?1:19-20? ?ESV??


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:31 AM
 

I will correct you once more. I dont know there is a God of any sort.
you seem to be confusing belief with love. if he presented himself right now, i would believe, still I would have an issue with what he has done and is doing. so there you are wrong again


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:45 AM
 

I understand you. You aren't following me which may be my fault. I understand that you do not believe in God or a god.

I'm saying that your dislike of the Christian God leads you to reject the existence of the Christian God. You portray it as a lack of proof requires your unbelief. I maintain your standard of proof is set to impossible because of your dislike of God.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 12:51 AM
 

If God is not a monster, than why do we need to be saved?
Sin? Is Sin so powerful that we border on dualism?
Is God's love and grace not more powerful than Sin or evil?

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 1:21 AM
 

Oy vey! its kinda amusing when Christians that are questioned use Christian doctrine as their answer. its no surprising though. So i'll try my best, sin is a Christian concept, its all about what God supposedly left on some tablets that most Christians find a way to ignore anyway, while praising themselves.

How did the world ever get by before Christianity? It was a very long time. Not to mention other civilizations that don't know anything about "sin". Many Christians think they are the only right religion and nobody ever lived before it. Also many of us atheist/agnostics live well and contribute to society just as much as Christians.

Why do we need to be saved? again a Christian concept.

I do believe in good and evil. but I dont think it takes the form of a heavenly father and jealous former Arch Angel, that had a fight. And now they use humans as puppets and force us into servitude chasing a reward, or damnation


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2016 8:17 AM
 

"If God is not a monster, than why do we need to be saved?"

Because sin deserves damnation. If sin weren't so bad as to actually deserve that then God would be a monster to inflict it.

"Sin? Is Sin so powerful that we border on dualism?"

Sin is so powerful that we are spiritually dead because of it unless and until God quickens us. There is no duality. “as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."”
??Romans? ?3:10-12? ?ESV??

"Is God's love and grace not more powerful than Sin or evil? "
Yes, that's why some inherit heaven.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:31 AM
 

The Bible has a brutal honesty about it that I believe would look much different if it was a history recorded by "victors" seeking to convince others of their version.

I didn't follow the last couple of lines you wrote.

Christ is much more than someone to believe to be God. There are many that reach the conclusion you haven't; that He truly is God incarnate. However, they still haven't tasted and seen Him to be good. Demons believe and know who He is but they hate him. I say all this to reiterate that new information or understanding is not what you or I or anyone else need. We need a new heart. A heart that accepts the things of God and submits to them as lovely and desirable because we have seen the King and He is good.

“Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."”
??John? ?3:3? ?ESV??
“If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”
??John? ?3:12? ?ESV??


Re: What Child is this?

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:23 PM
 

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
??Romans? ?1:18-21? ?ESV??

You know there is a God. A lack of evidence is not the reason you don't believe. You prefer there not be a God.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 9:33 PM
 

1st off you dont know me, so for you to say what I do and dont want is a reach. As I said before i would love to have ALL the answers whatever they are. God, no God, I have no idea. As Jhop said in his post God revealed himself to his would be non believer followers, so then why has he not revealed himself to me, and other non believers? Instead i'm supposed to believe the words written in the bronze age, by god knows who...pardon the pun. Which was then translated, over and over and hidden from non church leaders, and had several spin offs of it

Again Im fine with saying I do not know, but neither do you


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:40 PM
 

We know where he was buried. The tomb was empty on the third day and still empty today. He lives. Mohammed, Buddha, and countless other gods and prophets are dead and buried and we can go dig them up.

2019 orange level member

Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 11:48 PM
 

I understand that. but what does that mean? obviously it means he got up and floated up to heaven?
is there no other possible answer? none at all?

Not saying I know, clearly I dont. but to say that see its true coz well ,...no body. Jimmy Hoffa's body is missing too, as well as many Pharoahs, so they were obviously Gods like they claimed to be


God is pricking your heart.

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:52 AM
 

I'm a computer programmer by trade. I own an IT company in Charleston. But I'm also an ordained pastor. You can IM me. I'll be happy to talk with you about anything.

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Re: God is pricking your heart.


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:56 AM
 

lol, God is not pricking my heart.... I just love talking about these things.
I have many family members that are super Christians. several high ranking members of their church, that I often wrangle into conversation/discussions.

I appreciate your offer, but respectfully pass


Re: God is pricking your heart.

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:00 AM
 

Never heard of a super Christian. To each his folly, but the day will come when they know. God Bless.

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Re: God is pricking your heart.

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:07 AM
 

who knows, maybe, maybe not


Re: God is pricking your heart.

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:14 AM
 

I'm praying for you ??

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Re: God is pricking your heart.


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:19 AM
 

i'd prefer you send money. can actually do something with that :)


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:42 AM
 

http://www.reasons.org

You could start there. Most scientists will now admit to a god or a creator at this point because the science overwhelmingly leans to that being the most logical explanation. Physics, Anthropology, Geology, Astronomy, etc all have ways to support what the Bible says. Even recent discoveries of mitochondrial DNA supports that we all came from one woman, Eve. The science is there, as one apologist eloquently put it, with all of the evidence for God, I do not have enough faith not to believe.

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:49 AM
 

its amazing how people can twist facts.. :

The name "Mitochondrial Eve" alludes to biblical Eve.[10] This has led to repeated misrepresentations or misconceptions in journalistic accounts on the topic. The title of "Mitochondrial Eve" is not permanently fixed to a single individual, but rather shifts forward in time over the course of human history as maternal lineages become extinct. Unlike her biblical namesake, she was not the only living human female of her time. However, by the definition of Mitochondrial Eve, her female contemporaries, though they may have descendants alive today, do not have any descendants today who descend in an unbroken female line of descent.

and please post a link that says most scientist believe the earth was created in 7 days, by God


apparently Tony believes in cannibalism, voodoo and WalMart

[2]
Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:50 PM
 

no matter how silly that sounds.


Re: apparently Tony believes in cannibalism, voodoo and WalMart


Posted: Dec 25, 2016 10:51 PM
 

whaaaaat? way to chime in with crazy talk


just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 9:28 AM
 

and, well, it's silly.... as in meaningless.

If you want to live a meaningful life, best to find some meaning and purpose

and not keep repeating liberal diatribes that have no specific value.

Yes, you have a right to "believe" in anything;

no, you believing it doesn't make it any more likely or worthwhile.

Me? I believe in God the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth.

And I do this because I look around me and I see 13 billion years of evolution

and I think to myself, "Really? We're supposed to be the pinnacle that Darwin foresaw, and this... this...

is the best evolution can do?"

So, surely there must be a God somewhere who has given us this great big sandbox to flail around in

trying to find both ourselves and Him.

Best to you Tony. I hope you find something...


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:09 AM
 

thats fine. good for you. but as I keep saying there isn't just 1 answer... why not aliens?...seems just as likely. you just refuse to think maybe theres not, and Im sure that makes you feel better


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:16 AM
 

You need to read the book by C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity....

He starts out dealing with God vs. No God, the evidence within our thoughts and actions, then gives the evidence for the Christian God.

You and I sound a lot a like. I was raised in church but when I started thinking critically for myself I began to ask the same questions you are. Sometimes a simple shift in perspective can clear up the tough ones....


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:20 AM
 

read it.


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:28 AM
 

You said you read Strobel's book too, but then you mentioned the telephone game which is a major point in one of the chapters that is clearly shown to be an absurd analogy.


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:34 AM
 

Strobel never debunks anything


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:29 AM
 

Ok. So there are aliens. Where did they come from? That just pushes the question further out. If you are looking for absolute proof, you will not find it until a second after you die. You will either slip off into nothingness or you will know as you are known. I believe because the grace of Jesus has changed my life and that is very hard to explain. We are all on a faith or no faith journey and we all have to answer the question of who Jesus is. It seems you have answered that for yourself. I just refuse to believe that all life is meaningless and nothing matters. Apart from God, life is meaningless.

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Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:36 AM
 

you left off "to me"

"Ok. So there are aliens. Where did they come from? That just pushes the question further out. If you are looking for absolute proof, you will not find it until a second after you die. You will either slip off into nothingness or you will know as you are known. I believe because the grace of Jesus has changed my life and that is very hard to explain. We are all on a faith or no faith journey and we all have to answer the question of who Jesus is. It seems you have answered that for yourself. I just refuse to believe that all life is meaningless and nothing matters, to me. Apart from God, life is meaningless, to me.



Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:43 PM
 

So that begs the question... what makes life meaningful to you?

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Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:51 PM
 

no w thats an easy one. I live life for the enjoyment of life, and for my kids and loved ones. I spend every day like it may be the last, coz it just might be. I try to be kind to theres and help out the needy (taking the kids to soup kitchens several times last week) and such coz I think its the right thing to do. Not because I think theres a reward after this life, or because I think someone is watching my every move and taking notes.

I've heard from some religious people ..so if you don't believe in heaven or hell, and such, then you have nothing to live for. I think the opposite, I want to live this life to the fullest, and love as much as I can while I can

hope that answered it for ya


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:12 PM
 

But that's the point. Why? There is no reason to. Without God, there's no "right thing to do". There is no good, hope, or anything of value. Your life and mine are no more significant than an ants. You can live a moral life is you want, but if there is no God, there is certainly no reason to.

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Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:22 PM
 

its very interesting that people think that only thru religion is there right and wrong. I get it, for some of you you need this to go thru life, for others its not necessary. there were right and wrong (moral codes) long before anyone knew about the bible or the jewdeo Christian god...see Hammurabi Code and other writings.


Re: just showing you what "silly" sounds like....


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:59 PM
 

Again, Good and bad are all relative apart from God. If there is no supreme good then who says what is good? You? Me? God places these things in the human heart / soul. By striving to be "good", treat people with respect and raise your children, you are proving my point.

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Tony is in denial.. he's going to deny anything that forces


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:57 PM
 

him to accept that Man isn't the end all be all

or that his life should be more than 'joie de vivre'.

like I said, after 13 billion years and the BS

we see in Iraq, Syria, Africa, Russia, China, etc. etc.

is the best that "people" can do.

yeah right - it's all about us....

wtph?

only a sincere narcissist can or would want to believe that

it's not about what he believes - it's about what he doesn't want to believe.

good enough - it's his right....


I don't "want" to believe that.. it's just a proven fact


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 3:00 PM
 

that people who go to some form of Church

actually "give" charitably more than do those who do not attend.

fact.

something about making the world about more than just themselves...


Re: apparently Tony believes in cannibalism, voodoo and WalMart


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:38 AM
 

Yeah we turned this into a Super thread


Re: apparently Tony believes in cannibalism, voodoo and WalMart


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:42 AM
 

I'm praying for you Tony. We've got your point.

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Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:51 AM
 

No you won't offend me. Perhaps you are just misinformed. God IS NOT the monster. Satan is the monster. The things you referenced about suffering and sickness is not caused by God, nor does he choose to let it happen. I'm not sure what all you are referring to about suffering and what you have witnessed but i feel we have all witnessed traject occurrences. Most of that is nature. People die, get shot etc.

However, should you choose to follow the bible you can increase your odds of living in peace.

God is real. You can't imagine how good your life would be if you were to witness for Christ Jesus. He's real my friend. Repent and hand your life over to our savior. I promise you will not regret it. Peace be with you!

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Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:06 AM
 

ok let me help you understand. theres nothing anyone here can say to me that will convert me, as I wont try to convert you. it just aint happenin. I live a pretty good life, and very content

i'm here to discuss. those years on the debate team I guess lol


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 9:47 AM
 

But basically you are saying, there is no good, bad, meaning, etc. to life. What is your reference point for good?

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:16 AM
 

clearly thats not what I said


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:10 AM
 

I understand that you want to comfort others but by saying God does not allow evil or bad things but you remove all grounds for comforting anyone by saying such. What comfort is there if God wants to prevent bad or evil but He is unable? The truth is is that everything that comes to pass, good or evil, is ordained by God. He is in control and we can have comfort knowing that His will is good even when we can't see it....yet.


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:40 AM
 

No read what i said. I said nor does he choose to let it happen. Very different from what you said. I get my facts from the Bible... if he chose to let it happen then he would be a monster. We brought it upon ourselves when we chose to be sinners. Adam and Eve. No, he has a plan.

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:47 AM
 

God does not choose to let bad things happen?


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:59 AM
 

you're asking me? You're the 1 that claims to "know him". I don't think theres anyone to know, and that things just happen


Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 3:21 PM
 

No. I was not asking you.


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:18 AM
 

You can say there is no proof but i suspect you believe in the universe. Ok let's say you do. It's just random the earth was put in a perfect place to be what it is? No? Hmm at some point the galaxies and the universe had to have been created? You have to admit that. Of course everyone has to. Everything came from somewhere at some point in time. Hence you have your proof that there is a creator.

And we just happen to believe that's God.

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Re: What Child is this?


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:35 AM
 

I do believe something caused all this... as I keep saying over and over is that I have no idea what it was. the question is not is there something that caused this existence, but do I believe in the Jeweo Christian god of the bible? No


Re: What Child is this?

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 7:52 AM
 

"This, This is Christ the King!" This, This is Christ MY King!!!


Thank you for posting (please read)

[3]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 10:16 AM
 

I want to thank Birmingham Cat Lover for posting this. I also want to thank others that added positive messages to this thread. Now I want to share something with you.

I have not been to church in a long time. I have fallen out with God.I was adopted and raised by missionaries and know in my heart that my salvation is real. Nonetheless, I have let the actions and bitterness of man affect my passion for the church. It is not God's fault; it is mine. Reading the original post brought peace into my heart. It gave me a little more hope than I had the day before. It brought me to tears. We have all heard and know the Christmas story. Some believe, some do not; but we have all heard it. I believe. Reading it in the silence of my living room, while looking for some football talk on my favorite Clemson site, brought peace into my heart. It brought tears down my face. It reminded me that "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." (John 12:47).

So I just want to say thank you for posting. I know it's off topic for football. And some want to argue that it is out of place. I understand. But the OP posted it, and I can assure you, he reached one person with his message. That was me. He was successful. Thank you and please pray for this old Marine.

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Re: Thank you for posting (please read)


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 10:29 AM
 

Best post in this thread. God bless brother.

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Re: Thank you for posting (please read)


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:12 AM
 

I can identify cha2ga. The Holy Spirit is not done with you. He has enlightened the eyes of your heart to see the glory of Christ new and afresh. Turn back to him and look and live.

“Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.”
??Numbers? ?21:6? ?ESV??

“So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”
??Numbers? ?21:9? ?ESV??

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
??John? ?3:14-15? ?ESV??


Re: Thank you for posting (please read)


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 11:47 AM
 

And blessings to you for sharing with us. Such an important message. When we are open to God he can reach out and touch us.


Lots of love & prayers sent your way Cha2ga -MERRY CHRISTMAS***


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:49 PM
 



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I don't understand when a perfectly peaceful

[3]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 12:58 PM
 

Post is made about this subject matter, someone has to stroll in and attempt to debunk and insult someone else's belief. For someone to be an atheist, they sure often seem to be helI bent on disproving and discrediting the poster and their belief. If you have an absence of belief, then what's the point? Why waist your time discussing something you think's a 'fairy tale?' Do some of you do it because you get kicks out of questioning someone's intelligence or take the opportunity to spout off a few insults? How nice.

Forget your beliefs. Forget Christianity and God for a moment. How about just focus on some civil decency and learn to accept those with beliefs different from yours. I swear for this society to preach a message about tolerance, it does nothing but propagate intolerance. You have so much freedom...freedom to completely disassociate from this topic and this thread, but like moths to a flame some undeniable urge comes forth for a nonbeliever to try and sway others into not believing.


Re: I don't understand when a perfectly peaceful


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:27 PM
 

so let me get this straight:
someone posts a religious thread in a "public forum".... not even in the p/r, where it belongs, and nobody else that may disagree with such a thread can comment? and thats what you call freedom and tolerence? hahaha thats to rich lol


Re: I don't understand when a perfectly peaceful

[2]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:39 PM
 

1) it's Christmas. This happens every year. Should every Christmas related thread be moved to the pr board? It's easy, move along...don't click on it. It's surprisingly easy as I do it all the time.

2) your innocent, free from ridicule "comment" is one of intolerance. You stoked the fire. But I'm sure you meant no harm by insulting someone's beliefs.

If you believe in your "moral code," try this one...if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. If you wanna call that intolerance, fine. I call it being a decent human being.


It works both ways.


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:49 PM
 

Could a non believer post anything that wouldn't be met with a barrage of "advice" and "opinions" about that lack of belief? Would Christians just "move along"? Nope. They never have. Never will. I got TD'ed for a John Lennon lyric. Thanks Christian warriors!!


More thumbs down!


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:54 PM
 

Hallelujah! Jah Rastafari!


Re: It works both ways.


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:03 PM
 

That's the thing, it doesn't "work."

It's like trying to mix water and oil. I can't speak for those Christian's that actively seek atheists and attempt to change their perspective. Some Christians even do it with an air of ridicule and insults in the process...I'm sure that works great. I'd tell them the same.

I just don't understand why things like this can't even be approached with peace and a healthy dose of respect. Calling someone's backbone of their existence a "fairy tale" is exactly the opposite. That goes way beyond "debating."

I'm sure there are plenty of Christians that'd love to debate their beliefs with a nonbeliever. Why not start a thread on it...why derail a peaceful thread chalked full of insults? See the difference?


Pretty sure Christians tell non believers


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:14 PM
 

they are going to Hades. That is usually where it always ends up. There is an air of superiority that is insufferable. I can't imagine talking to someone like they are a two year old and feeling certain I am explaining what their whole existence on Earth should be about. Thumbs down that, biatches.


Re: Pretty sure Christians tell non believers

[1]
Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:23 PM
 

So you allow something you believe 0% in to dictate how you feel?


You have 0% knowledge of what I believe in.


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:27 PM
 

The message can appeal to me while at the same time being appalled by the "messengers". No one is "dictating" how I feel, Tall. It is an observation.


You just used generalizations


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 2:38 PM
 

to describe all Christians. Not all Christians talk down to you like a two year old do they? Perhaps I'm guilty of the same and assumed you were an atheist based on your comment...if you're not, I apologize.


Re: Pretty sure Christians tell non believers


Posted: Dec 29, 2016 8:57 AM
 

It's not Christians who say this. It is Christ himself who said this:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me."

The only way out of #### and to heaven is through loving, trusting, and living for Him. He's the one who said this. It's your choice to believe Him or not. When he said this He was either lying, mentally crazy, or He was telling the truth. He proved that what He said was true by giving His life, so that you and me could get to heaven by fully believing Him and completely trusting in Him.


Re: I don't understand when a perfectly peaceful


Posted: Dec 26, 2016 1:54 PM
 

I'm glad you're in here confronting this head on. Every argument you've posted in this thread has gone through my head and what's amazing is when I truly seek answers, they always point to Jesus....

If you honestly sought answers, like actually reading Strobel's books with an open mind, I think you would see the same.


This is GREAT. Amazing how anytime Jesus and our faith


Posted: Dec 27, 2016 11:17 AM
 

is mentioned; the thread blows up. I believe our Lord and Savior just eats this up knowing that He is getting air time on a football message board.

The passion is usually second to none and regardless of your viewpoints, He IS being talked about and that is never a bad thing. His ways are higher than ours and He doesn't need us to defend Him; He will make good out of the conversation in ways that only He can.

We, as Jesus people, want to share what He has done for us in our own lives. It is who we are; got something good, you want to share it. What others do with it is completely up to them and the Creator.

People are NOT won to a life of Christ by winning the debate (but then again maybe it does get people to thinking about it). I know what He has done in my life and the life of my family; my testimony is easy to tell as I know it very well. Sometimes that seems like it is "being forced down others' throats" and intolerant of others' beliefs. It really is not for me, just want to share what He has done for me.

Personally, I know Jesus loves everyone, so I don't have a choice but to do likewise even when they are NOT very likable! It is Him in me that enables that very emotion to love all. As my walk with Him continues, I hope to be growing into His likeness and helping to fulfill our commission to make disciples of all. Note- The Bible tells us not all will enter the narrow gates.

So, this really was not written to flame anyone or start more debate. It was written to absolutely confirm that not all believers are "in your face", repent now or go to #### type of people. In fact, if Jesus owns your heart, there is no way that you could live that lifestyle and represent the Lord and Savior in a light that is positive and true.

God Bless and Go Tigers!

(Can't wait to quieten down the ohio transplants at church!!!)

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