All-In [30115]

TigerPulse: 100%

Posts: 8921

Joined: 10/31/10

Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Feb 21, 2022, 2:20 PM

Some famous pyramids...

…..
A man-made mountain range

The Egyptian pyramids are somewhat unusual in that they were constructed towards the front end of Egypt’s 3000 year history in the 4th Dynasty, rather than representing a technological advancement towards the end of their civilization in the 30th Dynasty.

The biggest pyramid, on the right (though at a lower elevation) is for grand daddy Khufu, the middle one is for one of his sons, Khafre, and the small one on the left for his grandson Menkaure. The tiny pyramids are for their wives, and queens.

…..

…..
Limestone casing construction detail...should have used Flex-Seal to hold those in place

…..

…..
Section cut of Khufu’s Pyramid. Note the King’s Chamber.

…..

Despite their enormous sizes, the pyramids are nearly completely devoid of decoration. Compare the King’s Chamber in Khufu’s pyramid to any later temple in the Valley of the Kings. Religions, beliefs, and their writings, change over time.

…..
Khufu’s sarcophagus in the King’s Chamber, 4th Dynasty

…..

…..
Seti’s tomb in the Valley of Kings

Any random room in Seti’s tomb, 18th Dynasty. A far cry from the Khufu’s King Chamber.

A nice “stars in the sky” ceiling in Seti’s tomb

Isis up top, Ra and his sun-helm at bottom left. The guy in all white at bottom right is Osiris. We’ll get to him in the next poast.

…..

…..
Sure Khufu got a BIG building, but man did they skimp on his detailing. A contractor’s pyramid for sure.

…..

…..
His son Khafre’s pyramid is almost a solid mountain of stone blocks. Much simpler construction than having to deal with chambers and voids IN the pyramid itself. Note the irregular robber’s tunnel at bottom right.

…..

…..
But despite their incredible technical ability, the Egyptians didn’t always get things right the first time. The famous “Bent” Pyramid of Sneferu, father of the guy with the big pyramid, Khufu.

…..

The bend could have been for several reasons. Sneferu may have fallen ill and construction had to be sped up before he died. Or, it might have been a construction issue of simply starting too steeply. Accidents did happen:

…..
The famous “collapsed” Pyramid of Meidum. Only the core survives. Believed to be the second “true” pyramid (as opposed to a step-pyramid) constructed. When it collapsed is not known. Probably had a foundation of wooden pallets under that part.

…..

…..
You would think alien technology could at least master piling rocks on top of each other. Can travel through space but not stack stone blocks without them collapsing. SMH.

…..

…..

…..

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yesterday we were marveling at the god Ra and his eternal presence watching over us.

…..
Ra, heading for the underworld

…..

The Egyptians knew all this resurrection stuff was true because Ra is obviously reborn in the East, every morning, after he gets swallowed by the night in the West.

So to get from one side of the earth to the other, he has to travel underneath the earth, in the dark, all night long, to rise again on the opposite side. Just like the moon. It’s so fukking obvious, amirite?

…..

…..

The Greek astronomer Ptolemy finally established the circular motion of the sun around the earth as a scientific fact around 100AD, about 3000 years after the Egyptians figured it out with their own eyes.

…..

…..

The nice thing about Ra’s underworld journey is that he always wins. He always overcomes the death traps, always defeats the monsters, and always rises the next morning on the horizon. And, his journey is nicely subdivided into 12 parts, one for each hour of the night. Nice and orderly, just like the Nile.

…..

…..

…..
There’s Ra (you might recognize his sun-helm by now) fighting his way through the underworld on his boat. GD sneks again!

…..

And, you know for a fact that 6 hours into his journey, Ra is fighting giant magic snake number 3, directly beneath you in the 6 o’clock position. And you also know exactly where he is, and exactly what he is doing, at every other hour too. The Egyptians even made a map of the under world, called Duat, to keep track of his movements. Predictable, down to the hour, with ancient GPS.

…..
Duat. The ancient Egyptian underworld. But also the path to heaven. Watch out for those sneks. Unless you are Hindu. Then sneks are good.

…..

…..
I’m naga lie to you. Snakes can be good. Like here. But that’s a later story.

…..

…..
Milk. It does a body good. Even if your body is covered in scales.

…..

This is a good spot to go on a brief tangent about Western vs. Eastern religions. We’ll get back to Egypt in a second.

Keep in mind that even in the West snakes weren’t all, or always, associated with evil. Wadjet, for instance, the snake goddess who appears on the royal crowns, was a protector of Egypt.

In fact, even in the story of Adam and Eve the serpent was never called evil; he was called “subtil.” Gen 3:1 KJV. And he didn’t lie. We’ll take a closer look at that later. The serpent was very clever and manipulative, but he wasn’t a liar. He was a tempter, and he did expose some very awkward truths. But then, there were a lot of awkward exposures in the garden.

…..
The first passing of the buck – Adam blames Eve. Geez Adam, man up and take responsibility for your actions, ya big wimp. You’re making the rest of us men look bad.

…..

…..
Actually it was a fruit, not necessarily an apple, that they ate. But let’s just go with it.

…..

The Fall of Man in Eden is another fascinating and uniquely Western concept worthy of its own post. Try to explain “Original Sin” to a Buddhist and he’ll look at you like you are stone cold crazy.

…..

…..

The concept of Original Sin is not to be found in the Eastern traditions. It’s not even in the Jewish tradition, and they wrote Genesis long before the first Christians even existed. Nor is it found in Islam. In fact, Original Sin didn’t come into its fully developed form until the 300 AD’s, when the Catholic Church had somewhat matured and was looking at a lot of theological questions. So it’s kinda new as far as religious concepts go.

Original Sin is why Catholics baptize children long before they are even able to comprehend being naughty.

…..
I know, technically it’s a “Christening” because the child isn’t immersed, but any excuse to use a Godfather gif, right?

…..

…..
Original Sin is also a pretty good INXS tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOaCBIPGPM
…..

But even the Christian church itself is split on its interpretation, with Catholics and Protestants holding one belief, and the Eastern Orthodox church holding a slightly different view. It is a uniquely Christian, and fascinating, concept. Just the kind of stuff I LOVE. Why you think what you think.

…..
Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy sorting out a disagreement over Original Sin

…..

Staying with Eden a moment, in other religions, nature is not considered cursed by God into something that must be overcome for survival. “...cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life…In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,” Gen 3:17-19 KJV.

…..

…..

Eastern religions don’t tend to see the ground as cursed, and sometimes see nature as God himself. But despite their different generic view of nature, they can still have interpretation differences.

…..
Three Buddhist children sort out a theological disagreement

…..

Western religions are actually pretty rough on humans. They tend to show man being knocked down over and over again for either 1) having the arrogance to think they can be like the gods, or 2) showing disobedience to a God or gods. Either transgression can not only cost you eternal life, it can get you killed right here on Earth with a lightning bolt up the axx.

…..

…..

…..
Just ask poor Uzzah. Killed on the spot for not following the rules. Even though his intentions were good. 2 Sam 6:6-8 KJV. Even David was pixxed at God for that one.

…..

The rule was, NO ONE touches the Ark. Period. End of story. So when Uzzah the cart driver saw the oxen rocking the cart, he was concerned the Ark might fall off and smash the Ten Commandments inside. He reached out to steady it. Wrong move. God struck him dead on the spot.

…..

…..

Now, when I read a story like that I always ask “what is this?” It’s just like any modern news story. Why is this being presented to me rather than something else? True or not, someone took the time to write that story down, probably from a very long oral tradition. Then, it made it through the incredible process to get into the Jewish Torah, and ultimately into the Christian Bible. That’s no easy task, so there must be something deeper to it.

…..

…..

I don’t think it’s to show that Yahweh will kill people. Lots of other stories do that. Nor is it about the value of road maintenance or an appeal for better cart suspension systems.

…..

…..

To me, and others may differ, it’s about obedience. And if you are starting a new religion or a new nation, like Moses and Yahweh did, obedience to the law is kind of important. Even if the intent of your contrary actions is good.

…..

…..

This is consistent with other parts of Judaism. Because if anything, Judaism is about religious law. Jews have got 613 commandments in fact. Faith, the crux of Christianity, is sort of presumed in Judaism. I mean, of course you are going to worship Yahweh. That goes without even saying, right?

…..
You better, you better. You bet.

…..

There is an old joke about two Rabbis hotly debating Jewish religious law. God himself finally parts the clouds and says “You are both wrong. That scripture means this.” The two rabbis stop for a moment, acknowledge him, listen to his explanation, then go right back to arguing their points with each other. It is a religion of commandments and law.

…..

…..

But rather than a draconian enforcement of obedience or simply asking for faith, Eastern religions tend to encourage man to ascend to a “godly” state of mind or insight into the universe. This might be through meditation (Buddhism), or by achieving a higher level of resurrection (Hinduism), or just by peacefully accepting the “flow” of existence (Taoism).

…..
Taoism. You are a rock. Just let all that worldly turbulence flow around and away from you, man. Respect and accept the balance of good and evil.

…..

…..
The Tao Abides

…..

Taoism is similar to the “God has a plan, just go with it cause you can’t understand it” philosophy, so that’s a pretty cool East-West fusion concept.
The “Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change” part of the Serenity Prayer is basically Taoism to a tee. Just learn to roll with it.

…..
Elsa has mastered the nuances of Taoism

…..

So the Eastern tradition is a sort of an “open your mind” view of existence, and the Western tradition is sort of a “follow the rules” view. If you happened to live in a desert, like the early Judeo-Christians, you might have taken the “follow the rules” look too, if for no other reason than to keep your tribe together under the harshest of conditions.

Ask a Bedouin about his advice for “easy living” and he’ll probably punch you in the face. Again, where and how you live affects your world, and religious view. We’ll keep coming back to that.

…..
No air-conditioning? Plumbing is your left hand? A burdens and curses life indeed.

…..

…..
How do they get their subscriptions of Martha Stewart’s Living delivered out there?

…..

We’ve steered a bit off track but next time well get back to Ra, then a few other Egyptian gods, before moving on across the Fertile Crescent for the views from the other side. But for now, more pyramid pron.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

…..
The old, sacred entrance to Khafre’s Pyramid at top. The robber’s tunnel, where tourists now enter, at bottom.

…..

…..
Djoser’s Pyramid. Supposedly the very first pyramid. Built about 2600 B.C.E. Note the “step” format. Compare with ziggurats in Mesopotamia, at the other end of the Fertile Crescent.

…..

…..
The Choga Zanbil Ziggurat, near the mouth of the Euphrates. It was built about 1200 B.C.E., roughly the same traditional time of the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt.

And in better days…

…..

…..
The step-pyramid El Castillo in Chichen Itza, Mexico. Built in roughly 1000 AD, about the time the Crusades were happening in Medieval Europe. Pyramids, and burial mounds, can be found all over the world.

…..

…..
Burial mound of Emperor Jing. Xian, China, 150 B.C.E.

…..

…..
Indian Burial Mound Park, St.Paul, Minnesota

…..

…..
Wateree Burial Mounds. Camden, S.C.

…..

…..
And of course, the most awe-inspiring pyramid/prism of them all. Circa 1973.

…..

flag link

military_tech

thumb_down

thumb_up

Thanks for you reply, Hunt. Your participation makes this a better post. I hope to have some good discussions and you're right, I probably do need someone to keep me in line. <img border=

">

As to your comments, I’ll start with #1. Well, “new” is of course relative. I plan on having a future post on Original Sin at a later date, but because it got your attention I’ll get into it just a little here.

As you know, the term Original Sin is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Since I’m discussing religious concepts that go back as far as 3000 B.C.E., and even farther back when we touch on Animism and Totemism, I consider Romans, traditionally written by Paul while he was in Corinth in the mid 50 AD’s, to be rather recent. But again, “new” is just a subjective term. We can disagree on that.

I think my blurb that got your attention though was:

“The concept of Original Sin is not to be found in the Eastern traditions. It’s not even in the Jewish tradition, and they wrote Genesis long before the first Christians even existed. Nor is it found in Islam. In fact, Original Sin didn’t come into its fully developed form until the 300 AD’s, when the Catholic Church had somewhat matured and was looking at a lot of theological questions. So it’s kinda new as far as religious concepts go.”

I’ll still stand by that. You are spot on that Romans 5:12-19 is the root of the idea of Original Sin (as is Psalm 51:5, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me") , but as I said, it was an evolving concept that wasn’t even full accepted by the church until the Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

The first person to use the term “Original Sin” in their writings was Saint Augustine of Hippo (North Africa) in the 390’s. And he set off a firestorm of debate by doing so. There were several other views.

For instance, read Paul’s words carefully. I’ll use the NIV for clarity, but if you want to stick with KJV I’m good with that too. Paul sees sin and death NOT as a punishment for those other than Adam, but as man’s natural lot. That is a HUGE distinction compared to where the concept of Original Sin ended up.

“12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin...”

Simple enough. My translation of Paul: Adam’s actions brought sin and thus death, into the world. ( I do have one problem with Paul here, because Adam and Eve did not eat of the Tree of Life. “He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So does that mean Adam and Eve were going to die anyway? What a juicy question. If not, then what is the Tree of Life for if not immortality, and why is God so worried about them eating from it? But this is about Paul, so let’s stick with him for now.)

But then Paul gets more complex on sin and death.

“...and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.”

So suddenly Adam’s actions affect us all? What about Ezekiel 18:20? The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father?

How does Paul make this conceptual leap? And why? And who other than him says so? Paul was not th e only theologian by far. He wasn't even an original disciple. He never even walked with Christ. Ans by what authority does he speak on centuries of Jewish scripture?

And by “...death came to all people” Does he mean during the flood? Or over all time? He doesn’t say.

But then it gets even more complex.

“13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given…”

Simple enough. I presume he means Moses’s law. But Paul doesn’t say. But now Paul brings in the law.

“...but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.”

So you can’t sin if you don’t break the law? Suddenly sin is tied to law, not just Adam’s actions.
He goes on...

“Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam.”

So Paul acknowledges people still die, without sinning. Even those who did not sin, like Adam.

So Paul believes that Adam brought sin and death into the world, but you can still die without committing sin. Like he said, “ death reigned...even over those who did not sin”

But there were a TON of other interpretations beyond Pauls.

Justin Martyr, in the 100’s, said “each man committ[ed] evil by his own fault.” Not Adam’s.
Bishop Irenaeus, in the 150’s, said Adam was a child who would have learned good and evil in time, and he paid his price, so how could it Paul consider it to affect others?

Clement of Alexandria considered Job 1:21 “Naked I came from my mother’s womb”, as evidence for purity and the innocence of man at birth, and rejected the idea of being born into sin.

Origin of Alexandria, in the 200’s, considered the whole Garden story and allegory and not to be taken at face value at all.

Jerome felt that there was no possible way for man to be free of sin.

On the other, even more extreme side, even more so than Paul, were the Gnostics. These guys were GREAT! They considered all material life, everything...body, world, nature, ALL of it, corrupt and sinful, and in effect holding down and trapping your pure spiritual self in material depravity.

That’ll be a great poast. The Gnostics were like the black sheep of Christianity. And the best part was that many walked with Christ. So literally, you have one group of Christians saying "I was there, I know what he meant" and another group saying "Oh, yeah? Well I was there too, and I know what he meant." That's great stuff.

Saint Augustine also felt that children would go to he77 if they died without baptism. His main theological opponent in the 300’s was Pelagius, who taught that a good god would not punish others for one person’s sin, and that through free will you didn’t even need God’s grace to save you from anything. Your gift from God WAS free will, and the glory of God, which could not be denied, would lead you to him.

Obviously, the Church didn’t see it that way, and so he was declared a heretic. As were a lot of others.

But my point in all of this is that the Bible that we draw on was not the first idea, not the only idea, and not the last idea in religious understanding. Every concept that we think we know has a history, and usually an evolutionary one.

It took several Church councils, hundreds of bishops and theologians, and a few centuries to get to the refined, streamlined concept of Original Sin we have today. A lot of alternate ideas and interpretations were tossed out, eradicated, and even hidden along the way. Learning that is what makes this all so much fun. There is a reason Why You Think What You Think.

It didn’t just spring from nowhere.

On your Ark point I’m not sure if you are saying Uzzah’s death was accidental of not. 2 Samuel 6:8 says the Lord had "wrath", so I take that as anger and punishment. “Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah.” But if you see differently please say so. That’s what this is all about.

I hope you’ll keep contributing your thoughts and keep a close eye on me.

Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Some good tile work there.

that piece of 'alibut was good enough for J'ovah..."

What about the white guy?***

Re: What about the white guy?***

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

Re: Religious Pron - Egypt 2

You put a lot on my breakfast plate this morning.

Re: You put a lot on my breakfast plate this morning.

Re: You put a lot on my breakfast plate this morning.

'Like a man,' reveals a typical frame of reference...

Re: 'Like a man,' reveals a typical frame of reference...

While I believe God is The God of many...

OK, on to question number two.

Re: OK, on to question number two.

This is another topic deserving of thread starter.

Re: This is another topic deserving of thread starter.

TigerBoard POTD