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CU Medallion [20339]
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Go and sin no more...
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Jan 22, 2025, 8:45 PM
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Jesus was an outcast, rejected by those who should have known Him best - the leaders of the Jewish people. He was subjected to ridicule and challenged in many ways by them. They even brought a "common" woman before Him... to test Him... to make Him stumble before the crowd. When He finally spoke, His words to the woman were simply, "Go and sin no more."
I wonder, in our world today, if a common "soul" living in unrepentant sin, such as homosexuality, were to be brought before Jesus and He said to that "soul", "Go and sin no more," what would the leadership say about Him? I only ask because so many seem to think He would excuse the "soul" and encourage them to live in sin.
The fabrication of a lie is best woven when truth is misused to satisfy oneself rather the actual truth of a matter.
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Top TigerNet [30997]
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The serpent says "Did God really say that?"***
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Jan 22, 2025, 8:47 PM
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Re: The serpent says "Did God really say that?"***
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Jan 22, 2025, 8:49 PM
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...and many more things, as well.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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The lie is pretending to know that something unknowable is true.
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Jan 22, 2025, 9:18 PM
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I respect everyone's faith, but faith and knowledge are two different things.
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Top TigerNet [31673]
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Todd Snider has a great take on this
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Jan 22, 2025, 9:26 PM
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"Believe? ####, every word I sing
But believing and knowing, those are two different things
And if your trying to change the way a strangers life will have to go
I believe this is where I wanna stick to what I know
Which is nothing you know, nothing for sure so
Just chill til the next episode"
~ "Happy New Year" by Todd Snider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZEWW92g6I
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Sorry. I'll try.
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Jan 22, 2025, 10:24 PM
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If the question is
wonder, in our world today, if a common "soul" living in unrepentant sin, such as homosexuality, were to be brought before Jesus and He said to that "soul", "Go and sin no more," what would the leadership say about Him? I only ask because so many seem to think He would excuse the "soul" and encourage them to live in sin.
It would depend entirely on who you mean by "leadership".
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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If you weren't so hard core you would have done a tiny bit of research and...
Jan 24, 2025, 8:29 AM
[ in reply to The lie is pretending to know that something unknowable is true. ] |
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provided a reply with much more impact on a Christian than categorically disputing the scripture.
As the story goes, they brought a woman before Him who was caught in adultery and asked for His judgement. He stooped and wrote on the ground, I think His finger make grooves in the dust.
Some say, and it makes perfect sense, that He wrote the 10 commandments before He spoke. His first response was 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.'
Now Paul preached that those who practiced sin should be cast out of the early churches. If I had sold all my possessions and given it to the poor my attitude would be different about pointing at others and saying 'SINNER!'
I hope you see I'm not taking a side here for basically my reply to the OP avoided insult to you and your brother.
Perhaps you would do someone who loves you a favor and spend some of the time you argue against the the Bible by reading it for yourself, perhaps with a little less contention for it.
If you think it offends you can you imagine what it does to someone like me who believes it?
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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LOL!
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Jan 24, 2025, 10:31 AM
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Your whole premise, that I am ignorant of the Bible and haven't studied it is based on incorrect information and assumptions on your part.
I was raised in a fundamentalist Southern Baptist church which I attended faithfully until I was grown. My parents were both bible believing Christians. I've read and studied The Bible from cover to cover more than once, and was taught that it is the literal word of God.
My opinion regarding the Bible is not petty, ignorant contention, as you apparently are framing it, but rather a different opinion based on a lifetime of study, thought, experience, and prayer. What you have trouble accepting is that people can and do read and experience the same things and come away with different opinions; and that's all they are, opinions.
What you, and any of us believe about God and the Bible is an opinion - not knowledge. I respect your opinion. I do not respect your opinion that your opinion is factual knowledge.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: LOL!
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Jan 24, 2025, 1:33 PM
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There is a common history among the more vocal agnostic/atheists on the board: they went to "fundamentalist" churches in their youth. Each of the frequent agnostic/atheist posters on this board have described it several times.
The dissonance that causes, and the resulting anger, is understandable. Further, when one has not merely heard but actually bought into some indefensible things, and then discovers the error, one can feel duped, and that causes rebellion. This rightfully should cause one to challenge what he had heard, and to perhaps discard the past as false. IMO, to then understand what is true that past does have to be fully discarded. Who Jesus was or wasn't has nothing to do with what one thinks of his church from decades ago, or of one that exists today, or of what anyone has said or will say.
A pastor who taught that the universe was created in six 24-hour periods did not invalidate the bible, Jesus, or truth, any more than Cinco invalidated Clemson football. But he gave it a good shot.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: LOL!
Jan 24, 2025, 3:16 PM
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You’ve hit the nail on the head with me. I felt and still feel duped every time I hear something that I know is BS.
So how do you recommend someone like me move forward being surrounded by the legalism that pervades churches?
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: LOL!
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Jan 24, 2025, 4:52 PM
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It is true that 'Jesus' and 'church' - and all that the word 'church' means to a person - can be linked in the US. To answer your question - if I were answering to myself asking that question - I would stop going to church, do what I needed to do to rid myself of anything I had heard before, and start over. My decision about Jesus would be about me and him, and no one else, past or present.
I don't know if this helps, but it can seem as though Christianity is a western, US centric thing. This is not historically true, and isn't true today. Obviously it was middle eastern and Asian originally. Then African, then European, then American for a relatively short time. Most Christians today are in Africa and Asia. If it is not true already, it soon will be, that the country with the largest number of Christians is China. I think we would all agree that those Christians approach knowing Jesus from a cultural perspective that could not be more different than ours. No thundering preachers in anyone's background over there. So, if you want to consider Jesus from a counter cultural view, you are in good company in a worldwide sense.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: LOL!
Jan 27, 2025, 7:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: LOL! ] |
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What do you consider legalism?
Long hair will send a man to Hell is legalism.
Living in a sexually immoral lifestyle is called sin, is not legalism. It is plain truth from Scripture.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Well said, and I agree.
Jan 24, 2025, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: LOL! ] |
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I only point out my history with fundamentalist Christianity here to help show that I am very familiar with the Bible and have read and studied it most of my life, and I understand that whole perspective.
You summed it up nicely here, and I agree 100%:
Who Jesus was or wasn't has nothing to do with what one thinks of his church from decades ago, or of one that exists today, or of what anyone has said or will say.
A pastor who taught that the universe was created in six 24-hour periods did not invalidate the bible, Jesus, or truth, any more than Cinco invalidated Clemson football. But he gave it a good shot.
I would add that Jesus was who and what he was regardless of what the Bible says, or more importantly, what people believe the Bible says. I and no one else knows how long it took to create the universe, and that is the truth, which makes anything else untrue.
Also, I am not angry or in rebellion; I just choose not to accept things that don't make any sense to me, or I believe to be at odds with what I understand to be the truth.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
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Jan 24, 2025, 4:55 PM
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Sure. Washington crossed the Delaware, or didn't, regardless of what those accounts say. Washington was who he was, regardless of what is said about him. The question is how we decide what to think of him.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
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Jan 25, 2025, 7:23 AM
[ in reply to Well said, and I agree. ] |
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“I would add that Jesus was who and what he was regardless of what the Bible says”
Very good point and that’s the problem for me…everytime I hear “either you believe the Bible or you don’t” or “so and so is true because the Bible says so” I just cringe.
Modern Christianity is more about doctrines and having the right beliefs than actually loving your neighbor.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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100%.
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Jan 25, 2025, 11:57 AM
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Per what I'm getting from some in here, an all-powerful, sovereign God HAD to do things a certain way, and at the same time, he didn't have to do anything. To suggest that is nonsensical is me, a mere mortal, putting limits on an all-powerful, limiteless God. Who am I to say what God can and can't do?
I am trying my best to understand, but since they flat out won't answer simple direct questions, I am left to try to figure out what they mean and what their position really is, and how they make it all work. If I get it wrong, they still won't explain, and act as though I'm being contentious and difficult.
The way I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, the single most important thing was to embrace Jesus as the son of God who was sacrificed like a lamb at the alter so that God would forgive us. If you don't do that, God will not forgive you for your sins, and even though he loves you beyond comprehension, he sends you or allows you to burn in torment for eternity.
Sure, sermons included talk about forgiveness and loving our neighbors as ourselves, but EVERYTHING revolved around avoiding hell by "getting saved". As long as you were "saved", all of that other stuff was secondary.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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I don't know how many times I've heard "I may not be perfect, but at least I
Jan 25, 2025, 1:25 PM
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know where I'm going when I die".
Whether you walked to the front of the church as instructed as an 8-yr old, and said the right words, or had a sincerely honest and emotional conversion 10 years ago, you could relax, as the deed was done. Your main goal as a Christian was accomplished. You had been forgiven because you accepted that a particular miraculous event actually occurred, not because you were a good, loving, forgiving person, which is totally unnecessary.
That was the Christianity I grew up with, and the Christianity that is followed and practiced by millions to this day.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: I don't know how many times I've heard "I may not be perfect, but at least I
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Jan 25, 2025, 2:53 PM
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"That was the Christianity I grew up with, and the Christianity that is followed and practiced by millions to this day."
That is what you believe is the case. Perhaps some people do believe that, I dont know. If that is what you are rejecting, good. You are rejecting what some people perhaps think. Most people find moralism offensive, as you do, and it is a good thing to reject.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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I do reject that, and I believe it's that way because I have lived it and
Jan 27, 2025, 10:04 AM
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experienced it all of my life. Is not the central message of fundamentalist Christianity to "get saved", meaning believing that Jesus was sacrificed by crucifixion, then rose from/overcame death so that we all might be "saved"? That's what every fundamentalist or Baptist I've ever known believes. I may be misreading you, but you seem to be implying that would be an unusual, fringe belief.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: I do reject that, and I believe it's that way because I have lived it and
Jan 27, 2025, 10:54 AM
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The limitation of text communication is that we all forget what we are talking about from one post to the next. What I said I would reject is your post that immediately preceded mine, and only that one.
What you just now said, that Jesus's crucifixion is the atonement by which one is saved, is biblically true, and I believe historically true. That is John 3:16. If you, in another post, say that someone else says salvation means this or that, I might agree with you that that take seems off.
If I want to convince someone of a false statement, I take a true one and shift it about 2 degrees. I am not saying you did that, but that the church you quoted did that. So, I agreed that you should reject that sort of idea. But what you said in this post, I agree with.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Now I'm really confused.
Jan 27, 2025, 11:03 AM
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Please explain exactly what it is that I said that you reject, and that you agree that I should reject.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Now I'm really confused.
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Jan 27, 2025, 11:40 AM
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Your post of Jan 25, at 1:25 PM, beginning with the word "Whether", to the end of that paragraph. You posted it, I agreed I would not buy that either.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Thanks, but I'm still unclear on this . . .
Jan 27, 2025, 11:51 AM
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That is what you believe is the case. Perhaps some people do believe that, I dont know.
Do you not agree that Your post of Jan 25, at 1:25 PM, beginning with the word "Whether", to the end of that paragraph. is the main belief and focus of mainstream fundamentalist churches, including Southern Baptist churches?
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Thanks, but I'm still unclear on this . . .
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Jan 27, 2025, 1:20 PM
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I dont think so. Your two posts do not read the same, so I would need to know what you mean by a couple of phrases. Your second post, the one I agree is accurate, reads, "Jesus was sacrificed by crucifixion, then rose from/overcame death so that we all might be "saved"". I agree with that.
Your first post, the one I said I too would reject, says:
"Whether you walked to the front of the church as instructed as an 8-yr old, and said the right words..." What do you think he's being instructed?
"You could relax, as the deed was done". What deed is that? From what is one relaxing?
"Your main goal as a Christian was accomplished." What goal is that?
"You had been forgiven because you accepted that a particular miraculous event actually occurred..."." What do you mean by 'accepted that an event occurred'? An intellectual agreement that it happened?
Those are not picky questions, but define the heart of the matter, imo. If you answer those questions as many skeptics report churches as saying, yes, I would reject all that as well. But your second post, I agree with.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Re: Thanks, but I'm still unclear on this . . .
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Jan 27, 2025, 3:07 PM
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"Whether you walked to the front of the church as instructed as an 8-yr old, and said the right words..." What do you think he's being instructed?
Yes. I was curious when my friends started "getting saved". First one, then another, and another. It all happened for most of them over a period of about a year or two. I asked my parents first, and they tried their best to explain "getting saved". They said it meant accepting Jesus as my savior. At that age I really didn't grasp what they were saying, or why I needed to do that. They explained that I would know when I was ready, and that I would feel it in my heart. When I asked my friends, it became obvious right away that they had no real clue either, and they had been coached and encouraged by their parents. I know good and well that none of them were moved by the spirit, or anything like that. They were "getting saved" and thereby "joining the church". I'm pretty sure this gave the parents assurance that their child would not burn in hell for eternity should they die unexpectedly.
"You could relax, as the deed was done". What deed is that? From what is one relaxing?
Salvation. Going to heaven, not burning in hell.
"Your main goal as a Christian was accomplished." What goal is that?
See above.
"You had been forgiven because you accepted that a particular miraculous event actually occurred..."." What do you mean by 'accepted that an event occurred'? An intellectual agreement that it happened?
Apparently, and that's what I never understood.
I'm sure you've seen this commercial on TV:
Franklin Graham's salvation prayer asks people to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. The prayer includes asking for forgiveness, believing in Jesus' death and resurrection, and asking Jesus to come into one's heart.
Prayer
"Dear God, I'm a sinner. I'm sorry for my sins. Forgive me"
"I believe that Jesus Christ is your Son"
"I believe that He took my sins to the cross, that He died in my place"
"I believe that You raised Him to life"
"I'd like to trust Him now as my Savior"
"I want to follow Him as my Lord from this day forward forever"
"I pray this in Jesus' name. Amen"
Explanation
The prayer is based on the idea that salvation comes from God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It also involves turning away from sins, which is called repentance.
As Big Dog was saying, no real emphasis on loving and forgiving each other. No commercial about that. The whole point of this brand of Christianity is salvation. 1-Get saved. 2-Spread the word so as many others as possible get saved. Sure, it's good to love and forgive; they'll touch on that, but it's really all about getting saved. It's why every service ends with an altar call.
Did some of my friends mentioned above grow and mature in their faith and embrace it more seriously and thoughtfully with age? Absolutely. Many of them didn't. Personally, I did develop a real intelectual interest, as well as a spiritual longing, and developed what I considered a very deep personal relationship with Jesus and God, acceptingthat Jesus had died for my sins. But I never responded to an altar call, joined the church, and officially "got saved" in the eyes of those who seemed concerned about such things. I think you know the rest of my story.
This has been my experience, and I've seen it my whole life being raised in a mainstream Southern Baptist church, visiting other big, mainstream Southern Baptist churches, and having tons of friends and relatives from such churches all over the place. I'm glad to know that you disagree with that mindset and those beliefs, but am surprised if you don't think that's typical of mainstream fundamentalism. But, if your experience has been different, I appreciate that, as yours is just a valid as mine.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Thanks, but I'm still unclear on this . . .
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Jan 27, 2025, 7:02 PM
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My experience has been different, and I think all the followers of Jesus I know would say the same. Some of those came to faith as kids, and probably couldn't verbalize more than 'joining the church", and some did so as adults. All would, I think, agree to what i am about to say.
But first, I will say that there is nothing, and everything, wrong with the prayer you quoted. My own salvation was prayer was much more articulate and insightful: one word: "Hmm". Not even a word. I know one person who simply held his closed hand in front of him, and opened it. Others have said prayers both longer and shorter than yours. Some of those were reflecting the heart's desire of the open hand. Others, sadly, were simply doing a ritual. It's not about the prayer.
"You believe in one God? Good. The demons do, too, more than you." It's not about what one believes.
This is why I have been asking you what it means to follow the commandment to love. There are many accusations on this board about how others fail to follow it, or say they don't need to follow it. So, yes, I have been asking you to put on the table what you think it is, and whether you have done it. I have not yet received what I consider to be an answer, but that doesn't matter: this isn't a debate. I have only been hoping you will face a truth: you have not kept that commandment, or any commandment, not even by your own standards. Whether you face it or not is not something I need to know. It is not something between you and me. So, to answer your question about my experience vs what you described:
I and all followers of Jesus came to a very frightening realization, that we were as removed from God as East from West, that we were utterly alone, and that this was due to our own self righteousness and independence. All we had of love and integrity was an emotional desire for the ideal, and maybe a few facsimiles, few enough to remember and tell about in self justification. If we expected from others exactly what we had delivered, we had no right to expect love and hope, and we were receiving more than we deserved. Forget the theology: we knew God was somewhere doing his thing, and we were doing our thing, with no relationship now or later.
"So", one might have asked, "you don't want to go to hell, and you want to go to heaven?" Well, sure, okay, that was the eternal destiny, but it wasn't about that. There was a realization of who one was, and a desire to drop the independence in favor of a relationship with Jesus/God. Only the faintest understanding of Jesus's atonement was necessary. Virgin birth, flood, 6 days, walk on water, Exodus? Never heard of her. But Jesus I knew.
Quote any prayer you want, however theologically complete or flawed. Doesn't matter. I was alone, and wanted to come Home. Immediately after saying "Hmm" ('That's what I've been misunderstanding. Yes, I want to do that.'), I could only say what John Newton did upon realizing the sin of his slave trade and turning to the same Jesus: "I was lost, but now am found."
Newton wrote those words, but the melody is listed as "unknown". It was almost certainly heard by Newton on this slave ships, as it is written on the pentatonic scale (the black notes on a piano), the scale the Africans used. If you want to hear that song done 'correctly', hear it in a black church. They do know the story, and they know the forgiveness they are singing about, from both sides.
Salvation prayer. Love. Commandments. Going to heaven. Following Jesus ain't about none a that. I gave myself to Him, and because He is my brother and gave me life and lives in me, when he says 'go' I go, and when he says 'stay' I stay. And when I fail he says, "Paid it. Lets start again." Do I love others? Only He knows. I have nothing left to protect or defend, so when Jesus says "Do this", I do it, for whoever. Imperfectly. That's all I know. Anyone doing it worse is no worse than me.
If a church isn't teaching this, don't go. There are more than you think. None do it perfectly.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Thank you - nothing but respect.
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Jan 27, 2025, 10:05 PM
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I agree with so much of what you are saying - but first:
I didn't understand that you were trying to get me to realize that I need to face a truth - that I have not always kept the commandment to love thy neighbor, or any other commandment . . . because I thought it was understood that I'm fully aware that I haven't kept that or any commandments. I've never claimed that I have. So what you have been trying to get through to me and face, I already face. Like you said, I too do it imperfectly. Sorry you've spent all of this time on that. Sorry I did not communicate that better, and I am happy to share that with you.
I agree totally it's not about ritual, prayer, virgin birth, flood, etc. I believe it is about realizing and remembering that we are, always were, and always will be part of, thus connected to God and his unconditional love and forgiveness. If we don't acknowledge, accept and embrace it, the connection grows weak; that is ultimately up to us. I believe Jesus had fully realized and became all of that, and was here to teach and live that message. So yes, it's not about all of that other stuff. I agree that our real home is with God, but I definitely believe that loving each other the way God loves us is our true nature, and comes more naturally and easily as we nurture and grow into our relationship with God.
I've already explained what I believe love is, as best as I can; not trying to avoid or dodge at all. You realized you needed God; so did I.
I really, really appreciate your patience, and I know this is important to you.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Thank you - nothing but respect.
Jan 28, 2025, 8:25 AM
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Got it. Thanks. To me, all this came about in response to the periodic characterization of Christianity, which is actually complaints about churches, which is, "They believe X, but dont do Y". X is misstated, and nobody does Y. This isnt directed to you, is a general observation, but it is the same exercisethat got Jesus executed. We'd do to him again.
The anger in humanity that killed Jesus is universal, and sits just below a facade of normalcy. It looks for an object, always finds someone to blame, and eventually turns against God. Almost every post by the board atheists is about how stupid and Christians are. And they are. And so is the poster.
Sit for two seconds after a light turns green, and we all become exactly the same.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Re: Thank you - nothing but respect.
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Jan 28, 2025, 10:28 AM
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Jesus was a threat to those in power; both religious and political leaders. Both were focused on power and controlling the message, in order to maintain the status quo. Jesus wasn't about that.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: Thank you - nothing but respect.
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Jan 28, 2025, 11:18 AM
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True enough. He was more so a threat to individual moral righteousness; as you say, he didnt care about power, but humans connect the two. Herod's father tried to have Jesus killed by executing all children in Bethlehem. That was about being king. 30-something years later, Herod's wife got Jesus's cousin, John, killed simply because John said the marriage was adulterous and incestuous. Soon after, Pilate sent Jesus to Herod for trial, but Herod sent him back to Pilate who had the authority to execute him. This was to gain status with the Sanhedrin, who hated Jesus for several reasons, including His claim that he had the authority to forgive sin but that they did not ("from that day they plotted to kill him").
People hate Jesus today, questioning his authority by any means possible, including rewriting history. Dont think it wasn't and isn't personal, then or now.
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 25, 2025, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well said, and I agree. ] |
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It's not even about loving your neighbor. If it is, give it a shot and report back. I know I cant consistently do it against any reasonable standard.
To be fair about using the bible as truth, while I agree it is an error to say a thing is true just because the bible says so, I think we agree that there is a difference between using a document to prove itself, and relying on a document after some assessment of its truth. For instance, you and I likely disagree about the authority of, say, the Gospel of John. If I have reasons for believing it is accurate, and if I point to it as one of several reasons for believing the resurrection occurred, there is nothing cringy about that. It is simply a thing you don't agree with. Why we disagree about its accuracy is another subject. (This is another reason I would stop going to church until I decided a thing for myself. Sitting there cringing to later report cringing is no way to live. Life's too short to drink bad coffee.)
But I don't mean to cloud the issue. There are no brownie points for attempting to love one's neighbor, imo. Yes, Jesus said to love one's neighbor (I think you accept that much accuracy). Yes, he meant that. Yes, we should pursue that ideal. So how many resulting points does one need, and how many do any of us actually have?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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And I agree again.
1
Jan 25, 2025, 5:20 PM
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For instance, you and I likely disagree about the authority of, say, the Gospel of John. If I have reasons for believing it is accurate, and if I point to it as one of several reasons for believing the resurrection occurred, there is nothing cringy about that. It is simply a thing you don't agree with. Why we disagree about its accuracy is another subject.
Since we don't and can't possibly know (fundamental to my whole position) disagreement about such things is normal, inevitable, and perfectly fine. So, personally, I accept and expect disagreement. No problem. All we have is conclusions/opinions based on different things, and we are all entitled to that.
The problem I have is when somebody I'm discussing this with in good faith does not respond in kind. Like you said, Washington either crossed The Delaware or he didn't, but when I ask which it was, I have people in here telling me they can't answer until I list and explain all other possibilities.
Judge: "Mr Tiger, did you kill your wife, or not?"
Me: "I don't know how you expect me to answer that."
Judge: "Why is that?"
Me: "You have ruled out all other possibilities, but you haven't said what they are, or why you
discarded them."
Judge: "What other possibilities?"
Me: "The ones you have dicarded."
Judge: "I don't know of any other possibilities."
Me: "Does that mean there are no other possibilities?"
Judge: "There are none that I'm aware of."
Me: "AHA! So there may be some you are not aware of, and you may have ruled out those
possibilities! Gotcha!"
I mean, you can't make this up. That's where we are.
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Re: And I agree again.
Jan 25, 2025, 7:44 PM
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I hope you and whoever work it out.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Re: And I agree again.
Jan 25, 2025, 8:25 PM
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I tried repeatedly, but they aren't interested. I'll own it to the extent it took me so long to realize I was getting played.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: And I agree again.
Jan 27, 2025, 7:56 PM
[ in reply to And I agree again. ] |
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Some people can't answer your question because they don't comprehend Gods true Sovereignty.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 26, 2025, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well said, and I agree. ] |
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To me this is just a cop out. More fluff.
Why can’t you love your neighbor? You can go to church every time the doors are open. You can give your required 10%. You can abstain from alcohol to save face.
Thats what it means to be a Christian in my circle. Idk if thats you or not but you seem to be defending those who follow that type of Bible Belt Christianity.
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 27, 2025, 7:56 AM
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Defend people I just said to stop being with if they make you cringe? No, I asked you a question, because I'm interested in your answer. We seem to agree it's an important thing. What would you say is sufficiently loving one's neighbor, and have you, or has anyone, succeeded?
The Big Dog®
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [3706]
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 27, 2025, 8:48 AM
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To me the goalposts just seem to have moved from the first century to now. Those of us who have studied the origins of christianity know that it is because it is riddled with different interpretations and opinions.
The early church thought Jesus was coming back very very soon, and they lived that way trying to save as many souls as possible before it was too late.
The modern church seems more like a social club. They are more inward focused. Want to get "saved"? Come to church and come down to the altar, and then you have to join up and start working somewhere in the church, and if you don't do enough people will talk about you and look down on you.
"They never come to church"
"They never do anything"
You hear it all the time.
As for loving your neighbor, to me it's just a mindset. I hate to get political but the focus of the church today seems to be to keep America "great" in the sense that our borders are closed and we force people who are different to be someone else....
Is that love? I don't think so.
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 27, 2025, 9:42 AM
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Got it, fair enough.
"Those of us". Will just point out that this is a large group. Degrees have been granted on that subject for quite a while. Maybe your thoughts on that are part of the question below.
"The early church ... as many souls as possible." Many people live that way today. Dont know what you think about that, just making the observation.
"The modern church ...". If that is happening to you, I would again encourage you to drop it. No sense subjecting yourself to it. Life's too short to live that way.
The important question is what you believe 'love your neighbor' to be, if that is what Christianity is about. The idea of a mindset seems valid, but I think you would agree that two people of the same mindset can disagree about application. I dont think you would knowingly assign someone bad character on the basis of a disagreement on an issue like legal vs illegal immigration. I am not sure what 'judgmental' means, but I am pretty sure that is it, and I think I know you would avoid being that.
So, this is by no means a gotcha question: there is no debate topic on the table that I can see. You have raised a good point. On one hand Christianity might be about loving one's neighbor (Jesus said what he said), and on the other it feels very judgmental when a church puts right or wrong expectations on how we're supposed to do that. So, what is it? And who has done it?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [3706]
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 27, 2025, 12:02 PM
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""Those of us". Will just point out that this is a large group. Degrees have been granted on that subject for quite a while. Maybe your thoughts on that are part of the question below."
The average church attendee from my experience has no earthly idea where or how their copy of the "bible" got into their hands, nor do they care...
Their parents and their parents before them taught that the most important decision they can make is to "get saved", "receive christ as their savior", "make Jesus number one in their life"...however they choose to phrase it.
I know, from careful study and research into the formation and translation of the text, that these are things that Jesus never promoted. Like Smiling pointed out above, the goalposts have moved. It's not about doing what Jesus said, it's about believing the right thing about him.
Modern Christians follow Paul, not Jesus. Would Jesus even agree with the things he said and what his "followers" believe about him now?
Going by the things the gospels report, I would say an astounding NO. Love your neighbor, true worship is in spirit and truth, keep the commandments, give everything to the poor, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile...
Jesus never said to say a prayer and ask me into your heart and you will be saved. Never even came close. Unless you ignore everything but one passage and twist it to fit what you already believe.
And just for the record...I love going to church and seeing my friends and family. But when they start acting like everyone who doesn't look, act, and smell like they do has something wrong with them, that's where they start to lose me. When they say things about our world and history that is misleading or just downright false, like promoting a trip to see a tax payer funded "ark" in Kentucky, I'm sorry but that's what is cringeworthy.
And that's the funny thing about modern christianity, it's all about following Jesus, but it's really not. It's also about believing god made the earth 6,000 years ago and really loaded up 2 of every kind on a boat and destroyed the world.
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Re: Well said, and I agree.
Jan 27, 2025, 4:44 PM
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So, its okay for you to see it as a 'social club'? 
I cant seem to say this enough: I would stop going to a church that believes as you just described.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Love is simply a feeling of genuine affection and concern.
Jan 27, 2025, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: Well said, and I agree. ] |
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I believe God has that for us and we should have it for him, ourselves, and each other, with the understanding we are all one, connected, and part of something much much bigger.
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Re: Love is simply a feeling of genuine affection and concern.
Jan 27, 2025, 11:13 AM
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I think I could go with that. We would discuss what we mean by "feeling of genuine", because I think we would agree that love is more than intentions, even to the degree that love includes doing things that rationally seem unwarranted. It can almost be like a contract, doing things because we have to, maybe even wish we hadn't agreed to, and won't next time. Having children comes to mind. But we'd work all that out, so sure, can go with that for now.
So, a question that comes to mind is, "If asked for a show of hands, who will claim to have done this? If someone answers 'yes' only by qualifying it as 'imperfectly', by what standard do we say 'yes' (how imperfect is okay)? By that standard, can anyone say that anyone else falls short of it?"
That's three questions, I suppose.
I will grant that this is true; we all can think of someone about whom we would think, "If love is the answer, they've never even heard the question." But on what basis do we say that? How do we even know to say it? By comparing them to ourselves?
That's three more.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 27, 2025, 12:16 PM
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overthinking it.
Words, their meanings, and the way they are used, are indeed extremely important, but we could spend eternity breaking down every single word and and all possible nuanced meanings and we never get anything done and all attempts at communication would be hopeless dead-ends.
I don't think we need to do that with "love". I think it's a feeling that we all know when we feel it, and we know that's what it is beyond the shadow of a doubt.
But hey, you said you could go with it, so I'm taking that!
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 27, 2025, 1:37 PM
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Over thinking. I don't think so. The proposals in the thread were that Christianity is about loving one's neighbor, and that people in churches are not doing it. Very fair proposals. Both of those might be correct. Or might not be. It is fair and informative to ask the questions about what those are. The alternative is, "A thing is true because I feel it is." I think I know you well enough to say that is not what you want truth to be.
If one says he likes to discuss things, and among those things are errors that churches make, and if it is about loving neighbors, asking what is meant by love, and whether anyone can claim to do it, seem to be foundational questions. I don't think you want to under think a position.
If a person could show this to be true - "It is about love, but no can do it, or ever has" - that could have some serious implications about what Christianity is actually about. So, those were relevant questions, I believe.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
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Jan 27, 2025, 1:45 PM
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" The proposals in the thread were that Christianity is about loving one's neighbor, and that people in churches are not doing it."
You're twisting it a bit.
There are people in church who love their neighbor but I think we can all agree that that is not what christianity is known for.
Being a christian is about getting saved and avoiding hell.
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
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Jan 27, 2025, 4:30 PM
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Those things were said in the thread. But there is no reason for you to see this as a disagreement. If I was attending a church that communicates what you just said it communicates, I would stop going. We're on the same page there, it seems.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
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Jan 27, 2025, 7:57 PM
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Little bit easier said than done when you have friends and family that you love and it’s such a part of their lives. Plus there is a lot of good that comes from church. The fellowship more than anything IMO. I can tolerate having to roll my eyes every now and then and maybe I’ll see it all different in the future. Who knows.
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 28, 2025, 12:48 PM
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You tolerate it by coming here and calling them and Christianity uninformed and hypocritical. You letting them read all that?
You: No, I tell them about you.
Me: Fair enough.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 28, 2025, 4:38 PM
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Those closest to me know my feelings. Most of what I’ve said on here I’ve said to them and yes they tend to get defensive just like you.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 29, 2025, 12:03 PM
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I was just trying to end on a humorous comment. Apparently failed. But that is not a question for me to ask. I know the answer: An atheist doesn't find Jesus for the same reason a criminal doesn't find the police. He is running away. Why, only you can answer.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 29, 2025, 12:44 PM
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I think you are the one running away. You are scared your version of reality is not true, and what the implications of that are. I get it, I've been there.
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Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way
Jan 31, 2025, 3:14 PM
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Again with the 'yo momma'?
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Are we really saying we don't know what "love" means when Jesus talks
Jan 27, 2025, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't have room to talk, that's for sure, but I think you are way ] |
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about it?
Those who wrote the books of the Bible, supposedly quoting God and Jesus, talked about love quite a bit. Apparently none of them felt an explanation was needed.
Matt. 22 Verses 34 to 40
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
All I'm saying is, I don't think "love" as it's used here needs to be defined, explained, questioned, or analyzed. If it does, it was poorly stated, worded and written. I think it was plain talk. I think love is very much a feeling, which results in certain actions and choices that usually reflect affection and caring. It's not complicated.
If a person could show this to be true - "It is about love, but no can do it, or ever has" - that could have some serious implications about what Christianity is actually about. So, those were relevant questions, I believe.
I agree, there are serious implications as to what Christianity is about; I think that's what we are discussing. As to whether or not one can do it, I think that we can, but I don't think we are expected to do it all of the time, at every opportunity, as we all fall short. But, that is the goal.
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Re: Are we really saying we don't know what "love" means when Jesus talks
Jan 27, 2025, 4:41 PM
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I agree that the language is clear, so I would ask about your conclusion that we are not expected to live up to it all the time. You and I agree that we fall short. Are we expected to live up to the commandment, or to fall short?
- If we are expected to live up to it, why do we then fall short?
- Why would we be told to obey a commandment we cannot not keep?
- If we are expected to fall short, on what basis does anyone accuse another of not following the commandment?
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Re: Are we really saying we don't know what "love" means when Jesus talks
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Jan 27, 2025, 5:21 PM
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For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I think we are capable of reaching a point of spiritual perfection, and I think that's what we all should strive for, but some, for various reasons, come closer than others. I think we are here to learn and grow through experience in this earthly existence. I don't think we are here for a pass/fail test.
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Re: Are we really saying we don't know what "love" means when Jesus talks
Jan 27, 2025, 7:15 PM
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Great quote. Is that a statement of condition or expectation? "Everyone has had a speeding ticket." Condition or expectation?
Father to 16 year old son: "Get a speeding ticket, you lose the keys for 2 months."
"No fair! You've had speeding tickets."
"Exactly."
Condition or expectation?
I take your statement seriously, so this is as well: when you encounter someone who is approaching spiritual perfection, tell me about him. This, however, is intended to be partly humorous: everybody thinks that person is a grandparent, so dont say one of those. If everyone had a saint for a grandparent, saintliness ended in about 1965.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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It's condition, thus expectation.
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Jan 27, 2025, 10:12 PM
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I don't think I personally know anybody who is approaching spiritual perfection, but some are definitely closer than others.
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Re: It's condition, thus expectation.
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Jan 28, 2025, 12:11 PM
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A point for not saying "my grandmother". But I will agree to this: if she wasn't perfect, nobody is close.
My grandmother was one of those unassailable people. Eighth grade eduction, wrote letters like Shakespeare's sonnets. If she told a lie her tongue would have fallen off. No unkind word had exited her mind, no selfish action was ever witnessed, every comment was uplifting and unifying. A moment with her was joyful and intimidating in its purity.
[At Thanksgiving decades ago, my dad raised a subject we had heard a million times before. Its repetition was an inside joke between my sister and me. When he said it, my sister involuntarily choked on her tea. I smiled at that, and the cat was out of the bag. Dad's fork hit the plate. It was about to be on. In the silence before the explosion Grandma quietly said, "Some topics do tend to come up a right smart, but we can hear them again." And that was the end of that. Purity had spoken. How 'bout those Braves?]
Years later I was with her in her bedroom in the upstairs of my parent's home. One didn't just barge in; one was invited. She asked me about work, MissTulsa, etc, responding with usual affirmation, then said, "I'm worried." Okay, I thought, here it comes: I am doing something she finds worrisome, and she'll be right. But no, she was worried about herself. "I have reached this point in life to discover I am as dark as night inside. I wonder that it took so long." I actually laughed. "I find that hard to believe. No one else does, trust me." "Do not divert me with the opinions of others", she said. And then explained how it was she was so dark. Within an hour she convinced me. She understood the nature of insecurity and malice better than any theologian, and she accepted chapter and verse how they exhibited in her own life. She was right. She was no better than me at my worst, and she knew all my worst. "Grandma, I have some very good news for you."
She eventually died in that room. I had been with her, and stepped out to go to the store. When I came back she was gone. My mom was with her, and related the last minutes. I won't go into that. But Jesus took her hand and walked her Home, and she leapt at the chance. What I remember about all that is not her innate goodness in life or the joy at the end of it. I remember that moment when she admitted the futility of trying to earn goodness.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Beautifully put.
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Jan 28, 2025, 10:34 PM
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Your Grandma sounds an awful lot like mine. I think she went through 5th or 6th grade, no high school. Born in 1898, at one time she rolled cigars at the old cigar factory in downtown Greenville (building still in use). Later she was a book keeper and secretary. When I was a teenager, she moved in with us, and she was the kindest, sweetest, and perhaps wisest human I've ever know. She also loved to laugh, and best of all, she always saw the good in everybody. When I was a teenager, she moved in with us, and I had to share my bedroom with her. This was early/mid 70s, and I was beginning to experiment with various substances, and my favorite bands were Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbth, The Who, Pink Floyd, etc.. Not exactly Grandma music. But, when I put the Black Sabbath cassette in the Panasonic tape player at bedtime, I could look over at her in her bed, flat on her back, covers up to her neck, hair net on her head ... and I could see her feet moving under the covers, keeping time with BLACK SABBATH. There was one song she really liked, and the first time she heard it, she said "That's right purty!". Every time I hear it, I think of her.
Anyway, I know she was a devout, Bible believing Christian, but if she weren't, I wouldn't be able to get my head around a God that allowed such a good, sweet person to to suffer eternal torment, separated from His love.
https://youtu.be/ok_BBl2Nc-Q?si=Qi7nZWBHSoRIUxXj
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Re: Beautifully put.
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Jan 29, 2025, 11:56 AM
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I had not heard that. It is rite purdy.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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I have a few questions on that.
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Jan 23, 2025, 1:50 PM
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Is marriage to a woman who is divorced adultery? Is divorcing one woman then marrying another adultery?
Is sharing inaccurate gossip a lie? Is allowing another to form a inaccurate opinion by withholding information a lie?
Is seeing a woman and wanting her, really lust? Is wanting things you can't afford greed? Is seeing something and wanting it lust of the eyes?
I have all my sin boiled down to three categories, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
Is a hidden sin more virtuous than an sin in plain sight?
Imo, "Go and sin no more," is a lifetime challenge, an endeavor, a goal never reached and we're all in the same boat.
To answer your question, the world would crucify Him.
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Re: I have a few questions on that.
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Jan 23, 2025, 7:21 PM
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Again?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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I seriously hope you're joking.***
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Jan 24, 2025, 8:30 AM
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: I seriously hope you're joking.***
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Jan 24, 2025, 12:53 PM
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Ha. 'Have you been with me this long and do not know me?' Sure, joking, and agreeing. The millennia old practice of reworking who Jesus was to fit one's personal or political ideology is what got him executed the first time, and it would play out the same way again for the same reasons.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Apologies.
Jan 26, 2025, 3:34 PM
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I equate social acceptance as equal to the traditions Jesus condemned in His day.
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110%er [3706]
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Re: I have a few questions on that.
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Jan 23, 2025, 8:54 PM
[ in reply to I have a few questions on that. ] |
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I think Jesus meant what he said.
Go and sin no more.
If he meant try your best and just count on my sacrifice he would have said it.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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You sir, are being willfully ignorant by continuing to ignore...
Jan 24, 2025, 8:13 AM
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that Christ lived under, adhered to and loved God's covenant with Israel.
I think this is the sixth time I've explained that in order to deliver us from sin Christ had to fulfill the law. During those 5 previous times we've discussed this you've had plenty of exposure to the concept that Christ lived a perfect life and became the perfect sacrifice for our sin.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Sigh . . .
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Jan 24, 2025, 8:38 AM
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It really is exhausting, but I still don't have an answer.
I think this is the sixth time I've explained that in order to deliver us from sin Christ had to fulfill the law.
You say Christ "had" to. That means he had no choice. Not sure if you are differentiating between Christ and God in this instance, but are you saying God had no choice? If so, please explain what power greater than God made it so.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Tell me about your god.
Jan 29, 2025, 4:49 AM
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List his attributes/nature and if he has a priority list, that you know of, put them in order.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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I can tell you what I believe.
Jan 29, 2025, 3:12 PM
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I believe God is that eternal thing that created everything that is. I think we are all literally part of God, scaled down and very limited versions which allows to live in this lower form of existence, and we create as well with those limitations. I think at his essence, God is pure loving, creative energy.
I don't claim to know any of that; it's just what I believe, like everybody else, based on my unique life experience and my ability to think.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Is your god holy?***
Jan 31, 2025, 9:05 AM
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Depends on what you mean by "holy".***
Jan 31, 2025, 10:56 AM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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No, that depends on what holy means to you.
Feb 2, 2025, 4:12 AM
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Well, here's what Merriam-Webster says
Feb 2, 2025, 11:34 PM
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1
: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
I can agree with that, so yes, my God is holy.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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And you are still avoiding my question.
Feb 3, 2025, 10:19 AM
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Just another example of how you refuse to answer and instead deflect and take the conversation in a different direction. But, I'll try again and see if you'll answer this time or avoid it again.
How is it that God/Jesus had to do anything. What power greater than God made it so?
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: And you are still avoiding my question.
Feb 4, 2025, 3:46 PM
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The simple answer is the triune Godhead chose to do it that way. The triune Godhead made a choice and fulfilled that choice. Satan tried to get The Son to rebel against the choice He made in eternity past, but Satan failed.
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Ultimate Tiger [36249]
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Since you used homosexuality as the example...
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Jan 24, 2025, 9:36 AM
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this is an in-depth look at the issue by a Bible scholar. (I have yet to watch the whole thing but I've learned a lot from his other videos.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9q-vL9wJww
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Re: Since you used homosexuality as the example...
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Jan 24, 2025, 10:31 AM
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Hey Spooneye! Hope you are doing well.
I mentioned homosexuality specifically because that is the 'Hot Button" issue for so many. But, in all honesty, sin is sin - and when God says to "Go and sin no more," He is speaking to us all about [changes] our lives must reflect.
About the link - I watched 30 minutes of it... I was not fascinated by the information provided. I was fascinated by the length one will take building a science, philosophy, and cultural norm model to explain why people today do not understand what God really meant 2-4k years ago.
Just my thoughts on the matter...
Using objects with shading to explain why a person’s “mind” reads and interprets writing is ludicrous to me. I understand how the mind can “see” shapes based on [experience] with seeing objects. I can understand how cultural [norms] can impact how one [perceives] issues of morality – right and wrong. The issue as it specifically relates to the Bible is this: Scripture is written to bring [change] from what God has stated is right or wrong. That doesn’t change, even though cultural norms do.
If I should say to someone at work, “Don’t do this that way”, it is not something to be negotiated in the moment. This statement cannot be all inclusive and enduring [forever] without change, depending on what was forbidden, as change can and should be expected at some point. Dealing with work, manufacturing processes, etc., change is always pursued to improve how one works...but there are still things one [cannot] do and be successful until a change is properly implemented. Ideas must be made practical before they can be made [working] ideas.
To further explain sexual relations according to [worldwide] political and cultural aspects and norms, to even include the issue of “property rights”, does not change the fact that Scripture calls one [out of the world] in all senses. The changes called for by Scripture has nothing to do with political or cultural change – it is individual change. World-wide political and cultural changes will be realized by whatever the cultural winds push them to be. Those who follow Scripture (God’s words given in the Bible) are called to walk headlong against those winds.
The [weight] of time, opinions from others, or the multitude, does not change that.
Maybe a bit of a ramble... hope I make some sense in what I'm trying to say.
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Ultimate Tiger [36249]
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Re: Since you used homosexuality as the example...
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Jan 24, 2025, 10:42 AM
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I appreciate you taking a look at the video. I'm seen a lot of his shorter videos.
He goes at length into the science because he's interested in how religious beliefs work. There are a lot of shorter videos that provide examples of what I mean. If I find a really good example, I'll share it, but here is the list:
https://www.youtube.com/@maklelan/videos
And thank you, hope you are doing well also!
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Top TigerNet [32223]
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Re: Since you used homosexuality as the example...
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Jan 24, 2025, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to Since you used homosexuality as the example... ] |
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I thought that was excellent.
One of my pet interests is why and how we think what we think, and he hit that topic from several angles...from physiological limitations to cultural influence to personal experience to social markers.
A very nice find.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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And, this brings us back to the question
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Jan 24, 2025, 4:21 PM
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if God doesn't want us to sin, why does he allow it? If you claim he has to, then explain what power greater than God makes it so that he has to.
Which is it?:
1: God has to allow sin to exist because
A: He is powerless to stop it, or
B: He could stop it, but he is powerless to achieve what he wants without it, i.e. he needs it.
2: God wants sin to exist.
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CU Medallion [20339]
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I'll try to answer this
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Jan 24, 2025, 7:25 PM
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It really depends on who has the authority to say what all the options are to choose from. Until we have all the options on the table, there is no need to select one of those two just because one supposes that is all there is to choose from.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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What are the other options?***
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Jan 24, 2025, 10:15 PM
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Re: What are the other options?***
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Jan 24, 2025, 11:20 PM
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Honestly, I was hoping you could elaborate on them.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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I'm trying really hard to understand what you are getting at - help me out.
Jan 25, 2025, 2:39 AM
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Explain to me how there could be other options besides (1) God has to allow sin to exist, or (2) He doesn't have to. And explain why you think that.
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Re: I'm trying really hard to understand what you are getting at - help me out.
Jan 25, 2025, 9:25 AM
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Those reading assignments have already been assigned. Sorry if you didn't retain any of it. But you are an adult, and you can pick on that again through your own self-study.
Not trying to be rude but not going to help you with your homework any further either.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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You are not my teacher, and I am not your student.
Jan 25, 2025, 11:24 AM
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I am not interested in any assignment. Get back with me when you are interested in serious conversation, and have the courage to answer a simple, direct question wthout dancing and dodging or talking in metaphors and telling stories which avoid the question.
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Agreed
Jan 25, 2025, 1:35 PM
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and vice-versa. But, until you can list all of the possible options that you have discarded, and explained why, I cannot provide any other option that you have not considered. So, you haven't substantiated your position in a manner that allows me to agree, or disagree, with you. It's OK though. I understand you might not be able to provide those excluded options and explain why.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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You're full of ####.***
Jan 25, 2025, 4:15 PM
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CU Medallion [20339]
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Well, Thank you for proving my point.
Jan 25, 2025, 6:01 PM
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I do hope you have a good evening.
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National Champion [7308]
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Okay - so you diagree with this:
Jan 25, 2025, 11:14 AM
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I think this is the sixth time I've explained that in order to deliver us from sin Christ had to fulfill the law.
According to you, Christ/God did not have to fulfill the law in order to deliver us from sin, as per your words, he did not have to do anything.
Thank you for engaging and participating, as some here talk the talk, but aren't able to walk the walk.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: Okay - so you diagree with this:
Jan 25, 2025, 6:26 PM
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God could have planned redemption to be anything He wanted it to be.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Right. Nothing "had to be" any certain way unless God wanted it that way.***
Jan 25, 2025, 7:19 PM
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: Right. Nothing "had to be" any certain way unless God wanted it that way.***
Jan 27, 2025, 7:11 PM
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God chose what He wanted to choose.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Right. God chose to allow sin, and to send his son to suffer a horrible death
Jan 28, 2025, 10:03 AM
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as a "sacrifice", all because that's what he wanted, not because he had to.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: Right. God chose to allow sin, and to send his son to suffer a horrible death
Jan 28, 2025, 3:00 PM
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That was His plan.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Apparently. But a lot of people maintain that God hates sin, and only allows it
Jan 28, 2025, 9:18 PM
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because he has to. They also claim that God could not simply forgive us of our sins, but HAD to have some kind payment in the form of a sacrifice (the law HAD to be fulfilled). Somehow, this all-powerful God, in their thinking, HAD to do a whole bunch of things.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: Apparently. But a lot of people maintain that God hates sin, and only allows it
Jan 31, 2025, 8:03 PM
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He can do whatever He wants to do.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Like I said, some people say that, then start naming things he can't do, then
Feb 1, 2025, 11:04 PM
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then imply that I am trying to place limits on God.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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NO, God doesn't allow sin because He doesn't allow for Sin.
Feb 2, 2025, 4:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Apparently. But a lot of people maintain that God hates sin, and only allows it ] |
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He had Lucifer cast out due to sin. He took all of mankind's sin upon Himself and suffered a brutal death to pay for man's sin.
Our perspective does not provide comprehension for the fact that God, being eternal sees every second in history past and the future in real time. We can't imagine a being that isn't subject to time as are we.
Time is the most valuable commodity man has. You may not realize that yet but as the decades pass like telephone poles and the day of your end draws near time becomes a precious commodity. We can't imagine having unlimited time much less do we comprehend existing without time. Time is confounding enough but being eternal, as is God, eludes us completely.
From God's perspective Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. It's right there in the handbook. For those who think the Bible is just a guideline to a more self serving life that verse is nonsense.
1 Peter 1:
"18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
If one has the eye to see, the ear to hear and the heart to conceive the truth is evident. To the blind, deaf and simple this wisdom appears as the babbling of a fool.
Psa 19:
"7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."
The Bible is God's testimony, contrary to what the blind, deaf and dumb say.
reynolds357
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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But sin does exist, and it's alive and well. So apparently he does allow
Feb 2, 2025, 11:16 PM
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sin, and allows for it.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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If God allows sin why did Jesus die?***
Feb 3, 2025, 5:34 AM
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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Because Jesus was gaining a following, spreading a message that those
Feb 3, 2025, 10:06 AM
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in power, both political and religious, saw as a threat.
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National Champion [7308]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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I'm happy to understand one reason God does anything in any particular...
Jan 29, 2025, 5:09 AM
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manner. I don't believe my ignorance limits God.
'I don't understand!' is not a valid reason to violate God's will. Neither is disbelief.
Man's downfall in trying to do the will of God is our nature of using ourselves as a frame of reference. What I believe does not alter the truth and no matter how much I reason that I'm right doesn't change that.
I am not your frame of reference either. God is the standard and God is Holy.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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But you are the one that is placing limits on God, by making claims about Him.
Jan 29, 2025, 9:08 AM
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You say that you/we are ignorant when it comes to understanding and comprehending God, therefore we can't place limits on Him. Assigning any characteristics to God requires placing limits on him, meaning for example, when you say God is "Holy", "Holy" has specific meaning that includes certain things and excludes others, which is a limit on God. Now, if you are claming we can't apply that kind of reason to limit God, then you are in fact saying God may very well be anything.
In effect, you are saying that we can't know or say that God is not pure evil. We can't place that limit on God.
I don't think you believe that. I think saying that we can't place limits on God is an attempt to rationalize how God can both (1) Has to allow sin to exist, and (2) Doesn't have to allow sin to exist. I think you place all kinds of limits on God; the ones that help him fit your beliefs.
So, this question is about what YOU believe:
Can you/we place limits on God, and rule out that he is pure Evil?
(1) Yes, we can place some limits on God.
(2) No, we can't place any limits on God.
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National Champion [7308]
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Re: But you are the one that is placing limits on God, by making claims about Him.
Feb 1, 2025, 1:29 PM
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We can't limit God, God choosing to be a certain way does not take away from His sovereignty.
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Orange Immortal [66163]
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So, God could be pure evil, and could have been the whole time.
Feb 1, 2025, 11:15 PM
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I don't think you believe that. If you don't, you are placing limits on what God can be.
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