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110%er [3709]
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The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 5:15 PM
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Closest to Jesus and his earliest followers?
“Some modern critical scholars argue the Church Fathers' condemnation of Ebionites as "heretics" and "Judaizers" is both ironic and tragic, since many Ebionite views may have been closer to the authentic views of not only the first disciples of Jesus but also of the historical Jesus himself.”
“The Church Fathers generally agree on key points about the majority of Ebionites, such as their voluntary poverty and rejection of proto-orthodox Christian beliefs in Jesus' divinity, pre-existence, and virgin birth; they argue these Ebionites believed that Jesus was a mere man, born the natural son of Joseph and Mary, who, by virtue of his righteousness in perfectly following the letter and spirit of the Law of Moses, was adopted as the son of God to be a Messiah.[8]
According to these patristic sources, the Ebionites insisted on the necessity of following both the Law of Moses and the moral teachings of Jesus to be righteous; they revered James the Just, brother of Jesus, as an exemplar of righteousness and the true successor to Jesus (rather than Peter), while rejecting Paul as a false apostle and an apostate from the Law.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
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110%er [4003]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 5:27 PM
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Which of the early church fathers embraced this?
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 7:23 PM
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It looks like none. They viewed them as heretics because they didn’t believe in a few secondary doctrines.
They believed Jesus was sinless and the messiah however.
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CU Medallion [20340]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 7:04 PM
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Which "Modern" scholars hold those views?
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 7:28 PM
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Looks like James Tabor and Bart Ehrman are cited in that paragraph.
Anyway, we know Peter and James who were both not only disciples of Jesus but in his inner circle were opposed to Paul in holding to their Jewish customs.
It seems odd that a man who never even met the historical Jesus comes along and says nope we are doing it this way and wins out over Jesus’ best friend and own brother.
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CU Medallion [20340]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 7, 2025, 11:26 PM
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How do you know Paul never met the historical Jesus?
What exactly is it that you think Paul and Peter disagreed about? Was it about how the Gentiles should follow the "laws" of circumcision to be made "Jews"?
How is it that two "modern" scholars can know something from the writings (are there any from them directly?) of those from so long ago BUT, the majority of scholars have it all wrong by holding to the majority teachings of the majority that were there?
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 8:46 AM
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Even if he did he didn’t believe in him, follow him, spend every day with him, listen to his teachings, like I said that was Peter and James whom Paul supposedly opposed and won out over. How does that make sense logically? So Jesus chose to spend several years with these men and then said now I’m gonna appear to this other dude and have him write half of the New Testament and run the church?
I don’t believe the majority of scholars hold to the conservative evangelical view that the New Testament is the perfect word of god. Most view it from a critical lense as they do all historical works and make an honest assessment.
Makes you wonder, how many other writings are lost to history? What else did Peter and James have to say that wasn’t recorded?
We only have Paul and his companions opinions. James got one little book the ironically pushes what some view as a different theology from Paul and Peter got two, one of which is believed to be a forgery by a lot of scholars.
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CU Medallion [20340]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 9:55 AM
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Jesus Himself also corrected Peter at one point - very shortly after giving him a very big "pat on the back". Peter was also corrected through the Spirit over what is "Made Clean by God" in Acts.
The Majority of scholars may not hold to every "point of theology" discussed - none of them believe Jesus was a vegetarian and born of Joseph. None who believe Jesus is the Messiah, that is.
But, people will take "ideas" from the Ebionites, though they have none of their writings, and espouse truth as Paul being apostate, among other heretic teachings. Makes sense.
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 10:50 AM
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Myself or no one else said anything about “truth”.
If the ebionites were in fact closer to Jesus, should we not consider their beliefs as possibly being more “accurate” in the sense that they reflect Jesus’ own beliefs?
Jesus rebuking Peter is one thing…a man who was going around killing Christians suddenly having a vision and then rebuking Peter is entirely another.
A lot of the current Christian theology comes from the Middle Ages when Protestants were breaking off from Catholicism, and traces back through the council of Nicea and back to the church fathers. All gentile Christians.
I think it’s interesting if you go back before to the earliest Jewish Christians including Peter and James, a different theological view seems to have been present and stomped out.
Take into consideration that the New Testament is written in Greek and not Hebrew or Aramaic,
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CU Medallion [20340]
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Re: The Ebionites - well, were they spreading lies?
Jul 8, 2025, 7:50 PM
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I was not speaking of your belief. Only that those who promote the Ebionites are promoting their teachings as truth. If they are not then they are spreading lies. One or the other, right?
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites - well, were they spreading lies?
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Jul 8, 2025, 9:10 PM
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I don’t know that anyone is “promoting” them. Just reporting factual history. They existed and they were close to Jesus and his followers.
Again, why should we believe the word of Paul over those closest to Jesus?
Why does this Paul’s word carry the authority that it does?
Anyone can say god appeared to them.
If I’m listening to two people report an event that one of them saw first hand and the other had a dream about, who you gonna believe?
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CU Medallion [20340]
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Re: The Ebionites - well, were they spreading lies?
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Jul 9, 2025, 4:48 PM
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I suppose we are just going to agree to disagree.
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Clemson Icon [26250]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Ebionites ] |
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If Paul didnt meet Jesus personally, he had probably seen him. We cant know who all knew Jesus personally, but it doesnt seem to be many beyond Nazareth. Nicodemus had an evening's conversation with him, but few others are named. The 12, Mary Magdalene, Lazarus, Mary and Martha.
Many public people are like that: winsome to crowds but personally private. It was not a pleasant three years for him, knowing where it would end, so developing friends after leaving Nazareth maybe wouldn't be a priority.
Yes, any new idea is often considered sophisticated, though further removed and with no new info. Marxism is a failed philosophy until enough time has passed for it to be again presented as avant-garde. Nothing is believed except experience, which is often denied.
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Standout [243]
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 7:53 PM
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>If Paul didnt meet Jesus personally, he had probably seen him.
Now that is interesting. I'm curious if he did.
What makes you say "probably"?
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Re: The Ebionites
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Jul 8, 2025, 8:58 PM
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Just an opinion, based on:
- Jerusalem was not a huge city
- Paul's position made Jesus professionally relevant to him
- Paul was familiar with Jesus and his movement
- Jesus spoke to large crowds, so was easy for Paul to have seen him
- he had a personal, emotional reaction to Jesus (of course negative initially).
Put all that together, and it seems to me more likely than not that Paul saw Jesus in some manner.
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110%er [3709]
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Re: The Ebionites
Jul 8, 2025, 9:01 PM
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He never speaks of personal life though which is odd. Never mentions his teachings, the sermon on the mount, etc…
Paul is all about who Jesus is and why he came, not who Jesus actually was and what he said.
The modern church in America seems to follow this type of Christianity where it’s more about what you believe than how you act and what you do.
Love your neighbor and give to the poor secondary to believing the right things like that Jesus is god and he’s the only way to heaven.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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If one examines our American justice system as it is today and...
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Jul 9, 2025, 9:28 AM
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applies an uncommon, almost foreign concept of common sense the situation between Paul and the 11 becomes clear.
American law demands only three ways to end a contract. One of the simple ways a contract can be ended is to make amendments. That occurs when both parties enter negotiations and agree to alter the contract by producing a new contract to replace the original. That makes the original contract null and without value other than as an historical record.
The second way is for both parties to agree to end the contract which in effect, releases the other party from all obligations.
The most common way is that both parties perform their vows or commitments to the other party and fulfill the contract.
The essence and flavor of these concepts regarding law originated between God and The Children of Israel with the covenant which was written in stone.
One thing both the 'Ebionites,' and Paul had in common is their belief that Jesus is the Christ. So we have a firm foundation on which the truth is built. Jesus, in Matt 5 said...
"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
I have personal opinions of those who failed to comprehend this but they don't matter. What matters if the foolishness of one trying to fulfill a contract which is already fulfilled. That's a violation of common sense to Christians.
Now tell me why we are going through all this again. We've discussed your supposed dispute between Paul and the 11 apostles many times here in open forum. You have some obsession with trying to find conflict in the Bible which only exist in the hearts of the ignorant nonbelievers and the spiritual youth who have yet to grow to in Christ.
This must be the 4th or 5th time we've covered this.
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Standout [243]
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Re: If one examines our American justice system as it is today and...
Jul 9, 2025, 10:52 AM
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As respectfully as possible, have you considered that maybe the people asking the question aren’t “ignorant” and it’s possible that what you consider to be an adequate explanation isn’t for other people?
I would bet most people in the world disagree with your particular religious view, maybe they aren’t missing something you consider to be obvious 🤷♂️
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Without being rude I reply that...
Jul 10, 2025, 1:05 PM
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TBD has presented that Paul wrote contrary to the other 11 apostles. Those argument usually start with the comparison of verses from one of the 11 and one from Paul. How can anyone be so ignorant that he ignores context?
I ask that question because a college grad should value context over any other factor. What would happen to an engineer, doctor, lawyer or even a lowly writer who so obviously ignored context so.
Legalism, which is the position of those who mistakenly think the 11 taught that continuing in the Mosaic Covenant, was required when Jesus Himself told them that He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it?
Who is anyone who teaches a gospel other than the Gospel which Jesus taught? Yes, we've been all through Christ being under the Mosaic Covenant (law) and instructing the 11 to obey the law. That's because the Law was in effect until His death. Being that His death was the act of fulfilling man's obligation to the contract it becomes so obvious that only someone suffering from willfully ignoring the context of time before His death and the time after.
BTW, 'ignorant,' is not a curse or insult by definition. I used that term not in the connotative form but the denotative.
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110%er [3709]
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Re: Without being rude I reply that...
Jul 10, 2025, 2:28 PM
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“Paul wrote contrary to the other 11 apostles”
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that some of Jesus’ earliest followers believed that.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Yes, I read your thread starter and might should have said...
Jul 11, 2025, 6:54 AM
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everyone who spends any time in God's Word knows of the dispute and how quickly it ended. It was a simple and natural error for the early disciples to continue in the law and traditions. They and Paul had been raised to adhere strictly to the Covenant given to Moses along with the instructions on circumcision to Abraham.
I believe their confusion was in their perception of Jesus for He was the only man to ever live perfect in the law. The 11, those who were with Jesus during His 3 year ministry saw Him live in perfect harmony with the law and that was literally 'in living color.'
The only exciting thing about the confusion to me is when Peter had a vision. Acts 11:
"1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common..."
As far as we know this was at least the first vision Peter had and, IDK, but it might have been the only one. We know the complain lodged by God was Peter's treatment with the gentiles as being unequal with how he respected his Hebrew brother. God laid down the law of love to him. That's respect for everyone in equal measure by loving them.
James and other of the 10 apostles given to teach the Hebrews and spread the Gospel among the Jewish brotherhood may have learned from Peter's testimony of the vision and they might have been dealt with by God. I'm not sure we can know.
James 2 is the one chapter the heathen select to make the false claim that James believed working included for salvation when in fact James, who was dealing with those of the synagogues and temple pointed out that while the Hebrews there said they had faith in Jesus continued to treat the poor and gentiles like dirt.
James, in keeping with Peter's testimony, called out the Hebrews to point out that his faith was proven to them by the way he treated gentiles and the poor with respect he had for the them. He pointed out their error by using himself as an example of treating everyone with lovingkindness.
We might all take a lesson from James in how we treat our Clemson brothers here.
That brings me to today's lesson for me. I have gotten frustrated at a few good Clemson folks here and I make no excuse for my sin, neither to God nor to you, Paw or Smiling. This apology extends to all I have disrespected for the central topic of James 2 to me is a conviction that I'm behaving like the synagogue and Temple Hebrews which, as for them, diminished any respect for that which I present.
Forgive me and remind me quickly if I repeat such behavior, please.
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110%er [3709]
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Re: Yes, I read your thread starter and might should have said...
Jul 11, 2025, 3:37 PM
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Did it really end quickly though if there is evidence of these groups of early Jewish Christians that knew Jesus, knew the disciples, maybe even included some of them and they were considered heretics by the early church? Maybe their views and writings were simply stomped out lost to history forever.
Of the 12 disciples we have a writing from Peter, John, Matthew and that’s it. What did the rest of them go forth believing and preaching ?We don’t know. The majority of the New Testament, church doctrine, theology and practice comes from a man named who again was not a follower of the historical Jesus.
Does it make me an ignorant heathen that I recognize these things?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103215]
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Paul's belief, teaching and preaching was exactly like Jesus'.
Jul 13, 2025, 3:46 AM
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You are missing the point that Jesus, as was Paul before the Damascus trip, were under the law. Jesus fulfilled the law but until that meeting with Him and Paul, Paul didn't know it. He confessed he was ignorant of who Jesus was until that event.
There may be a slight difference in the way the 11 taught and Paul but that is easily understood because the 11 remained primarily dedicated to teaching and spreading the Gospel to the Hebrew people while Paul was sent to preach to the gentiles.
The similarities are astounding with the Blood of Christ being the foundation of what all 12 believed, taught and preached and all 12 preaching, teaching and testifying to Jesus' based salvation.
While the similarities were astounding Paul's responsibility was to a much bigger audience. Paul wrote to many different churches in several different cities and wrote at least one letter to the Hebrews. Both Paul and the 11 taught in the temple and synagogues across the Roman empire.
I've answered well to the charges you levied here on the 'radical differences,' between both Paul and the 11. They all taught that Christ came to fulfill the law and by His sacrifice made the law, contract between God and man, completely executed by both parties.
What the 11 struggled to abandon was the traditions established outside the law. Some of them held those in wealth and power with greater esteem than the gentiles to which Paul and Peter agreed were wrong.
I've dismissed your claims that James said specifically one must have both works and faith to go to heaven. I did so by exposing your misconceptions of James 2 which was the first contention you offered here. I got no protest to my understanding of chapter 2 in James for when I pointed out the obviousness of those who took one verse out of an entire chapter of the Bible and fabricated a contention between Paul and the 11.
Do you have other evidence of any disagreements on Christ's teachings and that of Paul or the 11?
BTW, I much appreciate your charges for they promote a divine curiosity within me which in only satisfied when I seek my God's instructions, help and communion. Many times you lay charges before me which I can't readily dismiss by showing understanding. Thank you and please feel free to continue to complain about Paul having written most of the New Testament.
What make one ignorant is that he misconstrues the meaning of the Bible because he allows one verse out of context to influence his understanding.
What makes one a heathen is the rejection of the Truth that only the Blood of Christ can wash away his sins.
As previously asked, is do you have other contentions of the teaching of Paul as opposed to those of Christ and the 11?
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110%er [3709]
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Re: Paul's belief, teaching and preaching was exactly like Jesus'.
Jul 13, 2025, 6:37 PM
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The Ebionites beg to differ with all that. The original post shows that there were a band of followers that may have been closer to Jesus and his disciples that thought Paul was a heretic...not the other way around as the Ebionites are charged by the early church fathers.
Speaking of them, they are pretty much the basis for all theology doctrine, not Paul or Jesus as their writings in the 2nd and 3rd centuries fill the gaps between the earliest complete manuscripts that come much later.
We have no idea what all was being said and believed about Jesus in the first century. We have one side of one version.
Again, why should we believe Paul over people who walked and talked with Jesus? The Ebionites are believed by some scholars to have contained people who were around Jesus during his ministry.
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110%er [3709]
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Re: If one examines our American justice system as it is today and...
Jul 9, 2025, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to If one examines our American justice system as it is today and... ] |
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“ Now tell me why we are going through all this again. We've discussed your supposed dispute between Paul and the 11 apostles many times here in open forum. You have some obsession with trying to find conflict in the Bible which only exist in the hearts of the ignorant nonbelievers and the spiritual youth who have yet to grow to in Christ”
Why would you not want to know about the ebionites and their beliefs if they were so close to Jesus?
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