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All-In [47795]
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Re: methodist_net: in the Western NC Conference of the UMC we're
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May 11, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Seems like the right thing to do if homosexual marriage and homosexual clergy are not part of their beliefs.
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All-In [47795]
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well, the BOD hasnt changed so not sure what
May 11, 2023, 10:32 AM
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they're worried about
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: well, the BOD hasnt changed so not sure what
May 11, 2023, 10:41 AM
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Probably worried it will. Do you think their BOD will change?
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All-In [47795]
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its more likely to change with the primary opposition
May 11, 2023, 10:49 AM
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leaving
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All-TigerNet [12246]
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What good is the BOD when the UMC Bishops and others in
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May 11, 2023, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to well, the BOD hasnt changed so not sure what ] |
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church leadership entrusted with implementing and adhering to the BOD refuse to do so? In fact - many in the UMC leadership flagrantly disregard the BOD and flaunt violating it. When the rules that are adopted by the UMC congregation at the General Conference are ignored and are no longer adhered to then there is no real governance of the UMC organization. The UMC in the USA is now simply run by the whims of the leadership while ignoring the rules voted upon by the congregation.
I don't blame the churches that are leaving the UMC - imagine most will eventually be joining the newly formed Global Methodist Church in the future.
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Commissioner [941]
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Re: What good is the BOD when the UMC Bishops and others in
May 11, 2023, 11:59 AM
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Amen! I just changed to another nearby United Methodist Church that has already taken a straw poll to leave when the vote to split is likely taken at the '24 conference. It's not fiscally sound to leave now, but the terms of discernment may be better after the conference vote.
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All-In [47795]
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there is a sweetheart deal to leave now
May 11, 2023, 12:50 PM
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that expires this year as you know. I don't see the '24 general conference making that deal again. we're likely back to paying full market value for the property if you want to keep it.
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All-In [47795]
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actually most are NOT joining the GMC
May 11, 2023, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to What good is the BOD when the UMC Bishops and others in ] |
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many of these disaffiliating congregations have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel. They can't afford to pay clergy and keep the lights on as-is and the GMC won't do them any better since they don't have enough clergy to go around.
And, the Mega churches leaving are going the independent route because the finances are better.
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All-TigerNet [11195]
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Churches down here that left the conference have
May 11, 2023, 9:36 AM
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leaned hard toward fundamentalism. They’re more like Baptist churches or even PCA kinda stuff. Oh well.
My church stayed, lotta angry old farts left.
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All-In [47795]
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what I've see is
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May 11, 2023, 10:34 AM
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there some Mega type UMC churches that really didnt fit in anyway and they're leaving to become independent. then, there are some small, micro churches with less than 50 in attendance on any given sunday and they are really more akin to Baptist anyway.
At this point, I say good riddance.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: what I've see is
May 11, 2023, 11:34 AM
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Seems like you have no issue with this then.
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All-In [47795]
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I supported the one church plan which would have kept
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May 11, 2023, 12:56 PM
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us all together, and allowed individual conferences and even congregations/charges some level of autonomy. The WCA faction quashed that and pushed through the "traditional" plan (which may be traditional American conservative but is not traditional Wesleyan by any stretch). I think we're better when we're together and the One Church Plan would have continued that diverse Wesleyan tradition.
that said, yeah, I see no other option then allow the close minded folks to leave.
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All-TigerNet [11195]
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Ed Zachary. In our congregation there were some openly
May 11, 2023, 6:55 PM
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hostile opinions that were the opposite of Wesleyan tradition. I would have never heard talk like that in our church 10 years ago. Yet some felt empowered to be rude and crass in open forums discussing the matter. Our Head Pastor has a son who is gay and I can’t begin to describe the grace with which he handled this mess.
Like you say…good riddance.
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All-In [31891]
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Maybe I'm biased, but in general...
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May 12, 2023, 8:48 AM
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the crassness and rudeness has rested largely on the liberal side of this debate. At least on a national level. Very much parallels political debate in that there is a lot of "if you don't agree with me you're a hateful bigot!"
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All-In [31891]
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"quashed" and "pushed" = won the vote...
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May 12, 2023, 8:44 AM
[ in reply to I supported the one church plan which would have kept ] |
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because the majority of United Methodists agreed with the Traditional Plan.
However, the leaders in many areas still continued to flaunt the rules of the church they belong to, which has led to many churches choosing to disaffiliate.
The bottom line is that the most liberal in the church continue to break the very rules they agreed to follow when joining/becoming ordained. They couldn't win the majority, so they continued to sow discord and separation. I continue to be left with the question of "why are you Methodist if you had such a fundamental disagreement with the stance of the church you chose to join?"
It's actually quite sad.
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Lot o points [155895]
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All-TigerNet [11195]
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Yeah it is.***
May 11, 2023, 6:55 PM
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All-TigerNet [11195]
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Lot o points [155895]
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you're right.
May 12, 2023, 7:54 AM
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I mentally flipped PCA and PCUSA. My bad.
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All-In [31891]
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Frankly, should have been the other way around...
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May 11, 2023, 9:55 AM
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churches and clergy that were not upholding the current Book of Discipline and flaunting the rules of the church should have been the ones to leave.
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All-In [47795]
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except they don't have the votes for that
May 11, 2023, 10:33 AM
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since at least 75% of the UMC supports full inclusivity instead of partial inclusivity
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All-In [31891]
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If that was true the BOD would have been changed...
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May 11, 2023, 2:24 PM
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by now.
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All-TigerNet [12246]
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75% support full inclusivity... Umm...No.... here are the
May 11, 2023, 9:18 PM
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facts from the UMC summary of the 2019 General Conference vote (the last UMC General Conference):
The Traditional Plan was passed by the 2019 Special Session of General Conference. This means our current statements about homosexuality, same-sex marriage and the ordination of LGBTQ persons have not fundamentally changed.
The changes proposed by the Traditional Plan are mostly about ordination of LGBTQ clergy and how to resolve issues when a clergy violates our human sexuality stances by, for example, performing a same-sex marriage.
The Traditional Plan received 438 yes votes (53 percent) and 384 no votes (47 percent).
So no - the majority of the UMC membership chose to adhere to the traditional stance on homosexuality yet many (dare I say a majority) in the USA UMC leadership refuse to accept this result.
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All-In [31891]
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Yep and what has many on the liberal side of...
May 12, 2023, 7:46 AM
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this debate so upset is that it's largely the southern US, black US, and African churches keeping them from getting what they want.
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CU Medallion [55747]
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Romans 1: 18-32 summarizes it well.
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May 11, 2023, 10:03 AM
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Come, Lord Jesus.
(and BTW, APM knows he is the chief of all sinners. Still, what the Bible says is what the Bible says.)
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All-In [47795]
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odd that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality
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May 11, 2023, 10:39 AM
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but mentioned Divorce numerous times. and, yet, the Southern Baptists and other Fundies don't seem to care about that one
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All-In [29036]
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N.M.S. syndrome
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May 11, 2023, 11:05 AM
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Not My Sin
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: N.M.S. syndrome
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May 11, 2023, 11:27 AM
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Forgiveness and glorification are two completely separate issues.
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CU Medallion [55747]
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True enough. Most of us ignore the plank in our own eyes.
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May 11, 2023, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to odd that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality ] |
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BUT.
And it is a huge but.
That doesn't mean we should not uphold certain behaviors as normal/good and others as harmful (normal marriage = 1 man, 1 woman. Harmful behavior = adultery). And almost everyone has a line they would draw somewhere on what is harmful.
Even allowing that these lines can change over time, there is still a difference between accepting behavior and ENCOURAGING it. And that's where we are now as a society and that is what Paul is talking about as being so wrong at the end of the Romans passage. Drag shows at elementary schools, kids having irreversible surgeries, the Christian Church ignoring the Bible, etc..
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All-In [42151]
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Re: True enough. Most of us ignore the plank in our own eyes.
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May 11, 2023, 11:33 AM
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If you're talking rules within your religion, have at it. If you mean any of this needs to apply to American law or way or life, no. You don't get to push that.
And no, pretty sure Paul wasn't talking about drag shows.
EDIT: Not talking about kid surgeries, though. I agree that shouldn't be a thing, but that's not a religious thing.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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All-In [47795]
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that's not quite true... at least not in any sort of
May 11, 2023, 2:46 PM
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exclusionary context.
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Lot o points [155895]
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Correct, Jesus hadn’t learned about gender dysphoria.***
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May 11, 2023, 3:04 PM
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: that's not quite true... at least not in any sort of
May 11, 2023, 3:07 PM
[ in reply to that's not quite true... at least not in any sort of ] |
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The only marriage that Jesus ever described was between a man and a woman. And not only was this the only type of marriage described by Jesus, there were commands of how a man and woman should treat one another in marriage.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Did he say anything about being between a man, a woman
May 11, 2023, 3:10 PM
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and the state? Because that's the reality of it.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Did he say anything about being between a man, a woman
May 11, 2023, 3:15 PM
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This has nothing to do with the state.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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If you think marriage has nothing to do with the state
May 11, 2023, 3:18 PM
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try to get out of one.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: If you think marriage has nothing to do with the state
May 11, 2023, 3:29 PM
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I'm not talking about state sponsored marriage.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Is there another type of marriage??
May 12, 2023, 11:50 AM
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I'm all ears.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Is there another type of marriage??
May 12, 2023, 12:23 PM
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Marriage is much older than government. Have a ceremony. Swap some vows - boom.
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All-In [47795]
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine
May 11, 2023, 3:28 PM
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You would think if Christ ordained other types of marriages he would have spoken of the responsibilities of the partners, especially for an institution with such significance.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine
May 11, 2023, 3:42 PM
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Paul talks about this as well.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine
May 11, 2023, 7:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine ] |
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Your argument doesn't really work. You're taking something translated (and rather poorly) over the centuries and saying, "Well, if he doesn't mention it, it can't be allowed!"
That's not a valid argument.
Most of Paul is garbage. If you want to get into real Christian talk, only focus on the Gospels.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine
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May 11, 2023, 7:13 PM
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Perhaps you can explain this in the Aramaic and Greek for us. I don't think the translation is the issue. Jesus was clearly talking about a wife and a husband. Please don't be obtuse.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine
May 11, 2023, 7:24 PM
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Just say you don't believe it. That's fine. Don't try to make it something it's not.
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All-In [42151]
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Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 7:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: and the only alcohol he discussed was wine ] |
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Your argument ("If he doesn't mention it, it's not allowed!") doesn't work.
Don't dodge this point.
EDIT: Similar to tithing. That's not specifically instructed in the New Testament. There is more that Christians practice that isn't mentioned. So your point is destroyed.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 7:47 PM
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I said don't you think Christ would have mentioned other types of marriage if he ordained them. Well, don't you?
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 7:54 PM
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Again, illogical argument. Christ didn't specifically address the format of marriage; he only addressed, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh." But he said this IN RESPONSE to someone asking about divorce, which I 100 percent guarantee you don't have a problem with (and predict you will dodge that).
In fact, NOT ONE OF YOU Christians on this board think that should be outlawed. Not one of you.
Again, argument destroyed.
So Christ's response came to a specific question and had absolutely nothing to do with him "ordaining" a type of marriage. That's a cheap attempt by you here.
EDIT: Your argument is so bad, I think I found the ###### article you pulled it from. Was it this?
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/church/what-did-jesus-say-about-marriage/
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 7:58 PM
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Of course I think divorce is wrong. He specifically spoke about marriage as a husband and a wife. Did he not? Why do you think he did not talk about a husband and a husband or a wife and a wife?
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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All-In [42151]
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So should it be outlawed?
May 11, 2023, 8:03 PM
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Should it be weighed as the same type of sin as homosexual marriage?
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: So should it be outlawed?
May 11, 2023, 8:05 PM
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I don't know. You should ask the children who have experienced them.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 8:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Don't dodge the point ] |
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And please do not sit here and say that you believe that homosexual marriage is some sort of long standing Christian belief. That's laughable.
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All-In [42151]
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Cop out answer
May 11, 2023, 8:14 PM
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You're attempting to pass judgment on sin based on scripture and Christ's word. Don't shift the goal posts when divorce is brought in.
Here's the answer you're trying to avoid: Christ actually spoke against divorce but NEVER addressed homosexuality. If you think the latter is an abominable sin and possibly worthy of legislation against it, you have to also believe the same of the former.
Do you?
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 11, 2023, 8:20 PM
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I said Christ addressed marriage, as being between a man and a woman. Which he did.
Now you're just debating phantoms in your head. I feel like I'm talking to Birmingham now.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 11, 2023, 8:22 PM
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And you were the one talking about what Christians believe outside of words of Christ. It's Thursday though man. I get it.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 11, 2023, 8:30 PM
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You and I have specially talked about legislation and how if you believe in individual rights, you can't really be against gay people being able to marry - not that long ago. Mohammed, I think that Bourbon is going to your head.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 11, 2023, 8:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Cop out answer ] |
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You cherrypicked a response by Christ over a trap question about divorce and tried to apply it to homosexuality. It doesn't work, and it's a tired old cheap trick by many Christians.
Why are you dodging? Do you think divorce should be held to the same legal standards as homosexual marriage? Do you think the sins are equal?
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
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May 11, 2023, 8:39 PM
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I'm not dodging anything. Yes ultimately I think all sin is equal. But read back through this thread. You are creating your own argument and attributing it to me.
I don't think homosexuality, homosexual marriage, or divorce should be illegal. Where are you getting this? It's certainly not from me.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 12, 2023, 8:49 AM
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I don't think homosexuality, homosexual marriage, or divorce should be illegal. Where are you getting this? It's certainly not from me.
Fair. It seems you were hinting at it, but I'll take you at your word.
Your argument still isn't valid as you're misapplying scripture to the topic of homosexuality. That story didn't deal with it.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 12, 2023, 9:45 AM
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It's very valid, but I'm not going to'yes it is, no it's not' any further. Now, I'm not sure if you were intentionally trying to strawman or if your memory is just that short. You and I specifically spoke about the legalities related to homosexual marriage just a few days ago. I specifically said that if a person believes in individual liberty, then it's hard to argue homosexual marriage being illegal. My own personal beliefs and what I think the government should legislate and enforce are two separate issues that are easy for me to segregate. The OP was not about the law. It was about his church's beliefs and how they are implemented.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Cop out answer
1
May 12, 2023, 9:50 AM
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Yeah, I recall now. My bad.
Still doesn't change my opinion on this argument, though.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Cop out answer
May 12, 2023, 9:55 AM
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That's cool - it's fun to disagree with you. You are a smart hard debater and don't go into ugly name calling.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Cop out answer
1
May 12, 2023, 10:13 AM
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You are a smart hard debater and don't go into ugly name calling.
Heh, well, maybe not all the time. But thank you! You as well.
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Hall of Famer [24050]
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Re: Don't dodge the point
May 11, 2023, 7:48 PM
[ in reply to Don't dodge the point ] |
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Destroyed in your mind
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Oculus Spirit [93667]
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The last I heard SB won't ordain a man who has...
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May 12, 2023, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to odd that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality ] |
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more than one wife which includes those who are divorced. I rejected an offer of deacon and told them it was because I had one divorce but still have two wives.
BTW, Jesus lived according to Mosaic Law. Homosexuals were executed in those days. There were no discussions in the synagogues or Temple about the fate of homosexuals, it was etched in stone.
Jesus taught what to do even when the woman was brought before Him in adultery. Jesus told the woman to "...go and sin no more."
He didn't justify adultery but He forgives it. I equate adultery, fornication and homosexuality. That is why I can not look down upon any man for all have sinned but not all qualify for deaconship, pastorship or any position of authority in church.
"Go and sin no more."
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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Well, let's hope churches never take a stance on
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May 11, 2023, 10:05 AM
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self-gratification, because if so, they will all just close.
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All-In [42151]
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I'm waiting for them to get hardlined on eating oysters
May 11, 2023, 10:33 AM
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Because they list that as the same #### quality of sin as homosexuality.
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All-In [47795]
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the fundamentalist get to pick and choose apparently
May 11, 2023, 10:36 AM
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they're fine with divorce for instance
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All-In [42151]
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Don't forget to stone your disobedient children to death!***
May 11, 2023, 10:42 AM
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All-In [47795]
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"but only the gay/trans ones" --flow***
May 11, 2023, 10:49 AM
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All-In [31891]
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You back to be an a$# now?***
May 12, 2023, 7:47 AM
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All-In [31891]
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All-In [42151]
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Maybe it doesn't. Help me out.
May 12, 2023, 12:33 PM
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Are they all equal?
If so, why does homosexuality take all the heat but oyster roasts don't?
And let's not go into "that's the Old Testament" argument because Leviticus is the #1 quoted passage when it comes to anti-homosexuality.
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: methodist_net: in the Western NC Conference of the UMC we're
May 11, 2023, 11:33 AM
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The BOD?? Are y’all serious? What does the Bible say Methodists? Good grief churches are debating what the BOD says? Wow!!
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All-In [47795]
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yes. we're discussing what the BOD says
May 11, 2023, 12:33 PM
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and doesnt say.
now, go about your snake handling Tardawg
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All-In [42151]
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Is this like when...
May 11, 2023, 1:07 PM
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Star Wars fans argue over what's canon and what's not?
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All-In [47795]
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think of it more as a Constitution for church governance
May 11, 2023, 1:29 PM
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it really has nothing to do with Cannon or Apocrypha. The BOD deals with church polity, how churches are formed, organized, governed... how clergy are commissioned, ordained, appointed, etc...
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All-In [42151]
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I know, I'm being snarky
May 11, 2023, 1:48 PM
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You know, over two sci-fi tales--um, "historically accurate" stories.
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: yes. we're discussing what the BOD says
May 11, 2023, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to yes. we're discussing what the BOD says ] |
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No snake handling here. But I will say that your church needs to understand the answer is in a different book.
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All-In [47795]
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yes, I understand your Baptist theology***
May 11, 2023, 1:26 PM
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: yes, I understand your Baptist theology***
May 11, 2023, 1:45 PM
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Has nothing to do with Baptist. Please explain the BOD stance on homosexual marriage based on scripture.
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All-In [47795]
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the UMC BOD currently provides as follows:
May 11, 2023, 1:50 PM
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¶ 304.3 Qualifications for Ordination
While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.2
1. "Self-avowed practicing homosexual" is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual. See Judicial Council Decisions 702, 708, 722, 725, 764, 844, 984, 1020
2. See Judicial Council Decisions 984, 985, 1027, 1028
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: the UMC BOD currently provides as follows:
May 11, 2023, 1:53 PM
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Ok that’s great. It honestly is. So why is there a big disagreement in the Methodist church on the subject?
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All-In [47795]
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that's my question too***
May 11, 2023, 1:55 PM
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: that's my question too***
May 11, 2023, 2:00 PM
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Then my apologies. I was thinking you supported the churches that approve of homosexual marriage. My mistake. Glad you don’t.
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All-In [47795]
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I would like to see the UMC change the BOD to
May 11, 2023, 2:05 PM
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be fully inclusive. But I'm not leaving just because my views arent the current views of the church.
John Wesley was fond of saying "unity in the essentials; liberty in the non-essentials; and in all things charity." This is one of my guiding principles and the way I approach church polity.
I believe each person is of sacred worth and that we are all made in God's image. That is, God made us all straight/gay etc.... and it is not for me to pass judgment.
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: I would like to see the UMC change the BOD to
May 11, 2023, 2:09 PM
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100% agree that we are all created in Gods image. I also agree that we are not to pass judgement. Judgement is Gods role and He is very clear on what is sin and sin will be judged. However, God does give us the authority to hold each other accountable. In fact God tell us we should do that. Accountability would be understanding that a practicing homosexual can not hold a ministry position. Judgement would be Gods responsibility with all of us.
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110%er [5675]
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All-In [31891]
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Because a lot of churches and clergy aren't following...
May 11, 2023, 2:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: the UMC BOD currently provides as follows: ] |
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what the BoD says (and that isn't the only clause).
Some openly and practicing clergy are homosexuals and some churches and clergy are performing and sanctioning homosexual marriage and the governing positions (district superintendents, bishops, etc...) in many of these areas aren't enforcing what the church says they believe and will adhere to.
Many of the conservative churches are fed up with the breakdown in order and beliefs/rules and have had enough with the push to change the rules.
Essentially, the liberals in the church didn't have enough support to change the BoD, so they decided to ignore it.
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All-In [47795]
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flow, as a Methodist, do you
May 11, 2023, 2:48 PM
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subscribe to the Wesleyan Quadrilateral?
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All-In [31891]
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more or less yes, why?***
May 11, 2023, 3:43 PM
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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All-In [47795]
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"clearly"***
May 11, 2023, 2:58 PM
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110%er [8984]
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Orange Blooded [3014]
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Re: Because a lot of churches and clergy aren't following...
May 12, 2023, 10:31 AM
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Yes sir, that’s pretty much a pattern seen over and over in the Bible. Human nature does not change. It seems America is about to “get what it wants”.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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You are a Warhawk flip flopper to the max
May 11, 2023, 6:58 PM
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you have zero conviction and zero credibility. I wouldn’t even post if I were you.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Lake Junaluska was a conservative haven
May 11, 2023, 7:29 PM
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now I see it’s a conduit to hell and beyond.
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