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the story of Christianity - cliff notes version
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the story of Christianity - cliff notes version

[2]
May 22, 2021, 12:38 PM

I totally may have gotten a few details wrong, my last time in Sunday school was a loooooooong time ago, but I think this is a good summation of the "greatest story ever told)


- A young Palo 12-14 yr old girl (Mary) was betrothed to Joseph, 30-34yr old. Mary discovered she is preggers, even tho she is a virgin. She is visited by an angel (Gabriel)? That tells her, not to fret and that her baby is the son of god. Her husband didn't believe it, and planned to divorce her, but was later visited by that angel, whom reassured him that its all good. Annnddd this baby would be the new King of the Jews

- Herod the Great, when he head the news, orders all male babies (2 and under) murdered, but Mary/Joseph ran far way, escaped and gave birth

- Jesus later on start talking peace & love and gathers a following, and does various miracles (walking on water, raising the dead) and other things that make some of the doubters believe

- The Jewish leaders and Roman occupying overlords grew wary of this new religion shaking up things and calling them out.

- Pontius Pilate had Jesus arrested and questioned about the king of Jews thingy. After questioning, Pilate looked to Jewish religious leaders and said "its up to you, so whatchu wanna do?" They went all thumbs down and decided to execute Jesus

- After JC died on the cross he was buried in a tomb, with a big rock covering the door....but he came to some of the disciples and let him know he was alive and well and in heaven. And they could all go to if they believe.

- When somebody examined the burial site the rock was moved aside and the burial chamber was EMPTY

- Later on these disciples decided to put pen to paper and write down what the future following should know about the life and thoughts of JC and their on - the Bible (NT)



I forget when and how it got started that JC died for our sins... I'd ask why did anyone have to be born, live 30+ yrs of life(most of which nobody knows anything about) and get crucified for mankinds sins? Why the need for a sacrifice? If god is all knowing, he already knew how this would play out. Why doesn't JC reveal himself or the Angels, to nonbelievers today, the way he did in the bible? Why should the test, believing in something so unbelievable

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even simpler version..


May 22, 2021, 1:41 PM

The Roman Empire was in collapse and things were turning violent. Well in 399 Emperor Constantine had enough and said,

"You guys remember that Jew we nailed to the cross a few centuries ago?, Welp his Dad is pised, and said if Y'all keep this up, you will spend eternity choking on your own flames. But, IF, and only IF, you behave, you will be rewarded with eternal life on that big fluffy cloud up there, and will live errr die happily ever after".

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Nothing like that reported or proposed anywhere, but okay.***


May 22, 2021, 1:51 PM



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Re: Nothing like that reported or proposed anywhere, but okay.***


May 23, 2021, 7:36 AM

I have the year wrong, Constantine did not sign the edict making Christianity the official religion of Rome until 313 AD. And yes, it was because the empire was falling apart, and they could not keep the people in line, so used an old story about how you would burn for an eternity if you broke the rules.

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Re: Nothing like that reported or proposed anywhere, but okay.***


May 23, 2021, 9:13 AM

Rather than when and under what conditions the "rule" was used, isn't a more important question, is it true?

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Re: Nothing like that reported or proposed anywhere, but okay.***

[1]
May 25, 2021, 3:47 AM

I think any rational person knows it is a load of BS. Besides, Hel is in Lubbock Texas, don't believe me, go visit.

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Flew into there once, picked up a car, and drove straight


May 25, 2021, 4:14 AM

back to SC with only pitstops for gas /restrooms...

What amazed me was when I reached the LA border, I was about 10-20 miles from being halfway home.

Tejas is BIG!

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Re: Nothing like that reported or proposed anywhere, but okay.***


May 25, 2021, 6:45 AM

So... Dabo is irrational. Gotcha.

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I’m pretty sure hell doesn’t have a Chick-fil-A***


May 25, 2021, 10:20 AM



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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 22, 2021, 2:05 PM

Good questions. In order, a few ideas:

- It started, among other places, with Jesus himself. John 3:16 is one example. There are others, in his own words.

- The consequence of our rebellion from God is separation from Him, a choice we made. The offer to us is drop the rebellion, made possible because He Himself paid that consequence. That raises other questions, I imagine, but is the shortest answer to your actual question.

- If He did re-enact the past today, would it matter more now than then? He was here, that revelation has been made. No one refuses to believe it on account of it being a past event. The historical accuracy of the NT documents have been subjected to the tests applied to all historical documents. The events can be determined to have happened.

- There is no test of intellectual belief. The obstacle to belief is always one's desire to control self, to determine right and wrong for self. It is not about belief, but pride and self justification.

If event X happened, and one doesn't understand why a person did it, the answer is found in starting from the understanding that it did happen. If one instead says, "Unless I understand why he did it, I won't believe it happened", one is determining historical truth based on his own ideology. Truth becomes determined by one's ideology.

If the execution and resurrection happened, all the questions are answered by starting with that fact. We can't bring truth into existence by which of us wins a philosophical debate.

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 22, 2021, 2:57 PM

there is no such proof that there was ever a virgin birth or that JC rose from the dead (resurrected) that I know of

feel free to enlighten me on that, if so

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version

[1]
May 22, 2021, 4:38 PM

Yes YouTube was not around back then. However there were numerous scrolls and artifacts as well as prophesies from hundreds of years before. Why did everyone collectively agree on one person unless that person actually did works to inspire that? How did his crucified dead body disappear from the tomb that was blocked by a large stone likely weighing 1-2 tons?

https://theosophical.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/the-size-of-the-stone-covering-jesus’-tomb-2/


https://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000280.htm


2022 orange level member flag link

Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 22, 2021, 5:14 PM

Idk. How did it get put in place to begin with? How did the pyramids get built, how did anything that is heavy get moved???

How do we go from ... his body ain’t here now to he must’ve rose from the dead moved the rock and went to heaven? I can think of several other options that are much more likely

2022 purple level member flag link

Several people were required to put it there. If the body

[1]
May 22, 2021, 5:24 PM

was moved, several people had to move it. Then a fake story had to develop.

Now you're proposing a conspiracy. Okay, fair enough. Proposed conspiracies can be assessed for likelihood just like any proposed explanation. The conspiracy proposal doesn't hold up.

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Re: Several people were required to put it there. If the body


May 22, 2021, 5:30 PM

Wrong I’m not making up a conspiracy. I clearly said Idk. YOU are the 1 saying you know, coz you read it, so must be true. It’s a fill in the blanks at best

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Re: Several people were required to put it there. If the body


May 22, 2021, 6:39 PM

"Now, you're..." referred to my preceding sentences, not yours. Sorry for the lack of clarity on that. But nevertheless, if the answer to "the seal stone was moved away, and the tomb was empty" is "who put it there in the first place", yes, that necessarily proposes a conspiracy of some nature, regarding the disappearance of the body, the resulting story, or both. A natural explanation for the missing body is necessarily a conspiracy, if for no other reason than the fact that more than two or three people would have to be involved, as you suggested regarded moving the stone.

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Re: Several people were required to put it there. If the body


May 22, 2021, 8:26 PM

If what you refer to a conspiracy happened that would still be waaaay more plausible than magic and mysticism.

Kudos to you for giving less wordy replies tho

2022 purple level member flag link

Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version

[1]
May 22, 2021, 6:35 PM

If you read the brief articles, they tell you. The stones were usually on a slight incline. So it was easier to roll them into place than to roll them back. Also Matthew says there were guards as well. It’s unlikely that you and a bud could say hey let’s have a few beers and then go rob Jesus’ tomb. It would have had to have been some sort of organized conspiracy as Tulsa says and that’s never been mentioned anywhere.

2022 orange level member flag link

I have already answered that. Any historical document can


May 22, 2021, 5:19 PM

be subjected to an assessment process to determine history from story. It is how we know Caesar invaded Gaul but Helen of Troy was likely mythical. Did the authors believe they were reporting the truth? Were they in a position to know the truth? Regardless of their intentions, was what they reported likely the truth? Those types of questions are approached in an evidential manner - like a cold case investigation, for instance - and the documents have to rise to something akin to 'beyond a reasonable doubt' before they are reported as fact. Most of what we consider 'truth' is in the historical realm.

The New Testament documents have been assess in this manner, probably more so than any ancient documents. I don't think there is any doubt that the execution and resurrection occurred. What that process is, and what evidence has been compiled by that process, is another subject. Will be happen to discuss that all you want.

If those accounts are reliable, one is past 'can God exist' question - He does if those things happened. Mary's story of a virgin conception is then assessed on its own merits in exactly the same way.

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Re: I have already answered that. Any historical document can


May 22, 2021, 5:26 PM

So no there is no proof that there was a virgin birth or that JC rose from the dead, except that you read it and believe it... got it

2022 purple level member flag link

I said the opposite. There is some anger just under the


May 22, 2021, 6:30 PM

surface here. You began with a decent post and seemingly honest questions, but when you get sincere answers you turn condescending. If all I know is this thread, you seem to be either a basically dishonest person, or one just looking to be abrasive, or both. Good luck with wherever that takes you.

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Re: I said the opposite. There is some anger just under the


May 22, 2021, 8:34 PM

I assure you there’s no anger here on this issue. It’s funny how someone asks a question and you give answers, that by the way can be found in your scriptures... or the go to answers of people’s of faith these days. I say yeah that don’t make any sense, just brings up even more answers. You say the answers about religion is right here in religious text. Then accuse me of being angry or whatever

Meantime, I’m still waiting for the proof of a virgin birth and a resurrection. It would be easier to say there isn’t any real proof, and that’s what faith is.

2022 purple level member flag link

You and I know better. Yes, you went condescending for no

[1]
May 22, 2021, 10:22 PM

reason. You get answers, don't like them, and out comes the anger.

You said there was no proof of the resurrection, as if I should point to a dna test or something. I of course agree that the NT documents are not proof simply because they exist. As you would point out, just reading a document doesn't make it true. The NT is proof only if the NT can be shown by evidential means to be reliable.

Can the documents be tested for reliability? The proof you asked for is the fact that such an assessment of those documents has been done. I focused on only that one point because you keep saying, "There is no proof". The proof is not that the NT documents exist, but that they can be shown to be accurate. It is quite an involved process, but it is all there.

As I said, if THAT is what you want to talk about, I will do that as much as you like. But your statement that there is no proof is per se wrong. You might hear it all and still not conclude that the events happened, but you cannot say people have no objective reason for thinking the documents are accurate.


Message was edited by: CUintulsa®

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Or, as it has always been told to me, as I've understood

[1]
May 22, 2021, 2:38 PM

it:

An all knowing, all powerful God created everything that is, which includes, or at least allows for the completely unecessary horrific pain and suffering of billions of human beings, many who are totally innocent of any "sin" or wrongdoing whatsoever, for no reason and to no end whatsoever.

As someone who believes in a loving creator, and Jesus's message of love and forgiveness and an afterlife, it's always been a struggle for me to reconcile all of that, and amazing that so many believers just either gloss over it or go through all sorts of mental gymnastics and contortions and contradictions to deal with it. Just admit there's something wrong with that version of the story, address it, and decide once and for all what to do with it.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Or, as it has always been told to me, as I've understood

[1]
May 22, 2021, 3:20 PM

Here's how I reconcile it, I admit I dont know. There are many things I don't understand. That changes nothing about the nature of God. I get by by supposing that if God needed me to have the answers, he'd provide them to me.

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There is certainly much that humans are not capable of


May 22, 2021, 7:23 PM

understanding and never will be, but we are capable of understanding when something contradicts reason, logic, and common sense. That's what keeps us from believing nonsense. That's all I am talking about here. God, the vastness of the time-space continuum, a soul or an afterlife, etc., are things I can't fully comprehend or grasp, but if you tell me 2 + 2 = 5, or that the moon is just the sun at night, I can know that's not true.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version

[2]
May 22, 2021, 2:46 PM

Wasn’t it nice for God to give you the opportunity to question him?

But don’t you ever question: masks, global warming, systemic racism, critical race theory, cancel culture, fetus killing, open borders, and tax increases. The science has been settled on those topics.

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I’m really curious

[1]
May 22, 2021, 4:47 PM

Those of you who think we believers are idiots , what do you think if the fact that your head football coach believes as we do? He is clearly a smart guy right? Just for thought, Danny Ford is “one of us”.

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Re: I’m really curious

[1]
May 22, 2021, 5:18 PM

I’ve spoken on Dabo’s beliefs.

A summation: I couldn’t care less who he worships as long as he wins football games.

Yes I think he is a smart guy. Many believers I know are smart. That’s 1 of the fascinating things about religion... very smart and otherwise analytical people suspending their smartness for blind faith

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Re: I’m really curious

[3]
May 22, 2021, 5:36 PM

"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing."

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Re: I’m really curious


May 22, 2021, 5:49 PM

Hmmmmm ...ok then

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Re: I’m really curious

[1]
May 22, 2021, 6:21 PM

Dawg he thought those were your words.

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Re: I’m really curious

[2]
May 22, 2021, 6:34 PM

lol. I was wondering about that. Let me clear this up....it's Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

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Re: I’m really curious

[1]
May 22, 2021, 6:42 PM

There you go sir.

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Re: I’m really curious


May 22, 2021, 6:48 PM

Dawg I just read the remainder of that chapter again after that verse 18. Wow!!!! Paul has the perfect answer for the “intellectuals”

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Re: I’m really curious


May 22, 2021, 7:18 PM

There is something very comforting in Paul's words. You feel he can relate with our troubles, from his "thorn in the flesh" God wouldn't remove (2 Corinthians 12:6-7) to "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing."(Romans 7:15-20).

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Re: I’m really curious

[1]
May 22, 2021, 7:30 PM

Dawg I’ve always wondered what Paul’s thorn was. I do believe God allowed Paul to carry a thorn or an insecurity, or vice , or whatever it was in order to keep him humble and focused on Christ. Remember who Paul was before his calling. He was a brilliant and powerful man. He probably had potential to become “puffed up” without his “thorn”. All speculation on my part but it’s my guess having read Paul’s writings many time. Regardless, it serves as a comfort to us to know that if Paul had issues certainly we will and Christ covers our failures through his grace.

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You have to keep in mind


May 22, 2021, 7:04 PM

These are the same people that got all worked up over Paul Harvey the other day

2022 orange level member flag link

If you know they are smart people, why not consider the


May 22, 2021, 6:47 PM

possibility that they are not doing as you assume?

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There are, inarguably, extremely brilliant people who

[1]
May 22, 2021, 7:14 PM

believe in God, and extremely brilliant people who do not believe in God. Period. Anybody who suggests otherwise, or that either position makes one an idiot, is the idiot here.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


What about a person who says, "They are smart everywhere


May 22, 2021, 7:18 PM

else, but suspend their intelligence to believe in an otherwise stupid thing"?

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They would be correct in many cases. I am simply pointing

[1]
May 22, 2021, 7:49 PM

out that neither believing or not believing in God requires that.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Right. That is universally true: there are smart people who

[2]
May 22, 2021, 8:15 PM

think the moon landing was faked, dumb people who think it wasn't. The issue is what happens when one assumes everyone who disagrees with him is either stupid or has suspended their intelligence. Why start a discussion if one thinks that?

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Exactly.

[2]
May 22, 2021, 8:39 PM

A lot of people in here should answer that question.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Right. That is universally true: there are smart people who


May 22, 2021, 8:57 PM

This is the P&R discussion room is it not. Unfortunately not every post or thread is gonna be in agreement with your world view.

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"A lot of people in here should answer that question."


May 22, 2021, 10:30 PM

We were talking about you, among a few others.

Disagreement is the point. We all know that. Talking to people like they are not quite as smart is not the point. When that happens, don't you find that the reverse is almost always true?

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Re: "A lot of people in here should answer that question."

[1]
May 22, 2021, 11:13 PM

I wasn't sure if Tony was agreeing or disagreeing.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


There is more than a little condescension above, like we're


May 22, 2021, 11:24 PM

dolts who don't have objective reasons for knowing what we know. I will back out of this thread now, before I get sucked in further than I already have been, which is my fault. If somebody will respond to a sincere answer to a legit question in the same manner in which it was offered, fine. If the questions were instead an opportunity to be condescending, the person's mind was made up before they asked. No need to go on.

One thing we know: The word "Jesus", uniquely among all other words, always brings a response, gratitude or derision. Same as from the beginning. Those in the middle, wanting answers, are very few.

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 24, 2021, 10:14 PM

A different take...I do not believe people were created from oxygen, methane, and a lightning bolt, or whatever unlikely combination of events are theorized.

I do not believe given infinity amount of time that single celled organisms can adapt to create human beings that think like we do.

Our consciousness and ability to imagine, wonder, predict, love, and so on are really incredible. We see and experience it every day, but it is amazing nonetheless.

And, the discoveries that humans have made are incredible. Math and calculus, for example. The idea that numbers had to be created/invented - not just any number system, but the exact and only one on which calculus is based had to be invented and then widely adopted. W T F are the chances? I mean the number zero was not invented/discovered right away!

Take a polynomial equation, say y = a + bx + cx^2 + dx^3. We can plot it from x=0 to x=100. We can measure the area under the curve if we do it carefully on graph paper.

Or we can discover calculus and a simple and repeatable formula to convert the above equation to an equation that precisely gives us the area under the curve! This chit was and is amazing. Only human brains can do this. IMO our brains did not evolve and there is no missing link.

So, how'd it happen?

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 24, 2021, 10:36 PM

You make some great points. I have said it here and several others.... I don’t know. I never claimed to know. I just am VERY skeptical that it’s as said in the Bible or any other religion for that matter.

As for the missing link thing. There has been many many missing links found. Most religious people I know are even making that argument anymore

2022 purple level member flag link

Not saying this is you here because I have no way of knowing your background.


May 25, 2021, 10:12 AM

But what I do find interesting is that many (again not all and not accusing you of the same) people believe in “science” but have never read anything about, never done the experiments or equations themselves, don’t understand what is being presented or the limitations, etc. But if stated by a scientist they BELIEVE. To many it is a religion.

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 25, 2021, 10:21 AM

Really? I didn’t know that. I’ll admit that I don’t pay close attention but can you show me one leap of evolution between species? I would like to read up on it.

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Re: the story of Christianity - cliff notes version


May 25, 2021, 12:10 PM

This is one of the most famous examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

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Lol ... this is unbelievable but scientists testing ice cubes


May 25, 2021, 9:09 AM

And telling you what the weather was a billion years ago is truth

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Lol ... this is unbelievable but scientists testing ice cubes


May 25, 2021, 9:10 AM

And telling you what the weather was a billion years ago is truth

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Re: Lol ... this is unbelievable but scientists testing ice cubes


May 25, 2021, 11:52 AM

Ice traps air bubbles, and we can tell how old the ice is by how many layers (rings) there are in the ice core similar to how we count age in trees.

It won't tell you the weather, but it does give you the contents of the air at the time. Seems like a pretty straightforward thing to me, no?

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