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All-In [44050]
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The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 2:10 PM
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is unfair.
I have read a lot of criticism of the ACC in terms of not prioritizing football enough, not helping Clemson out enough, and for not doing a good enough job with the TV contract.
But if we are being honest with ourselves, blame for the ACC's football reputation should go to member institutions for not remaining the football powers they were when the ACC brought them in.
Miami and Virginia Tech were two excellent additions to the conference in terms of football when they were added. Both had had top 10 seasons in the Big East. In addition, Boston College was a perennial top 25 team around that time. If those teams had continued their football success, the ACC would likely have been able to negotiate a better TV contract recently.
Louisville was a good addition for football at the time as well. They had seen success in the Big East.
Let's not forget about Florida State and North Carolina, two schools that have had football success but have struggled recently. Florida State is an example of a top football power that has slipped considerably over the last decade. If they had remained a top 10 team, we would at least have Clemson and Florida State in the ACC as football powers - even if Miami, Virginia Tech, etc. weren't living up to their football potential.
It's hard to fault the ACC for these developments as they relate to football in the conference. For those of you who want the ACC to "do more to help Clemson," I don't understand what else they are supposed to be doing.
In terms of the current TV contract, I thought the contract was reasonable at the time. It's not the ACC's fault that the SEC, Oklahoma, and Texas have started this trend of superconferences. Expecting the ACC to have seen that coming, or to have decided to do that on its own when no one else did, is asking too much in my opinion.
Another criticism is that the ACC didn't force Notre Dame to join as a football school, but the ACC wasn't ever in a position to force ND to do anything. Heck, nobody seems to be able to force ND to do anything. Given the fact that Notre Dame made it clear that they wanted to remain independent in football, I think the ACC was smart to get Notre Dame for everything else with the hope/expectation that Notre Dame would ultimately join for football as well. That would of course be a huge coup, but even that wouldn't be enough to save the ACC given what the SEC and Big 10 are doing now.
I realize that the ACC is a popular entity for some of you to hate, dating back to our football probation 40 years ago, but it's time to move on. The ACC has been a great fit for us for a long time, and although it isn't a perfect conference, our membership has benefited us and benefited them. I'm sad that the ACC as we know it probably won't continue. We need to find a better situation. But when we do, I'll be leaving the ACC with fond memories and sadness that it couldn't continue, rather than anger and disdain for a conference that tried their best and did a good job all things considered.
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Orange Blooded [4139]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 2:13 PM
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have you considered the possibility that the ACC might have been a contributing factor to the decline of the programs you mentioned ?
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All-In [44050]
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I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 2:25 PM
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I can't reconcile how the ACC hurt them though.
Florida State dominated the ACC throughout the '90s and most of the '00s. Miami and Virginia Tech had some good seasons as ACC members. Louisville did too. I don't see how the ACC made them less capable programs.
I do know that they all had coaching changes that, in hindsight, weren't good decisions. They also had dips in their recruiting. I don't see how ACC membership is responsible for those developments though.
The only way I can see the ACC hurting those programs is if we want to argue that the competition in the ACC improved, leaving FSU less able to steamroll the ACC and the former Big East teams less capable of consistently being good. I can see some truth in that, as the ACC is a better football conference than a lot of people give it credit for. While there aren't often multiple really really good football teams in a given year, there are often a lot of good, solid teams.
Otherwise, I don't see any ACC policies or decisions which have kept those former football powers from being able to succeed in the ACC.
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 3:07 PM
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I believe our division structure and scheduling format were fatally flawed from the start, and over time this has simply slowly extinguished enthusiasm and value across the spectrum.
Even though the SEC and B1G have as many dog programs as the ACC in football, the difference lies in the venues, school sizes, and fan support that each of them boast from top to bottom over the ACC. While from a competitive standpoint we may all be fairly close in terms of history, past and recent, from a venue and support standpoint we are far more stratified. The SEC has only Vandy here. The B1G has Rutgers. The ACC has six of these in Ga Tech, UVA, BC, Syracuse, Wake, and Duke. UNC also kind of fits the bill here, but we need them to break the GOR so they get a pass for now.
The SEC and B1G can get away with being top heavy competitively because they have a better football media product to sell every week - classic venues, big and engaged crowds, atmosphere. Even if the particular matchup isn't all that - it looks good on TV, and TV equals money.
Our flaw was believing that we had an equal product to offer via the equitable scheduling approach, because competitively we did. We just didn't have it on the venue and media side, and program infrastructure element, and we have allowed that to drag the whole enterprise down over the years as a result.
Frankly, old Big East football had more to offer on any given Saturday than the ACC has had, even with their top programs now on board. Largely, they were all passionate football-oriented programs with strong fan support and exciting venues. We watered that down with Duke, Wake, UVA, UNC, Ga Tech - programs that show little steady enthusiasm or institutional buy-in on the football side. Over time that kind of cuts into everyone. If you spread enough crud into the mix regularly enough, you get a cruddier and cruddier product. I believe that's where we are, and why.
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All-TigerNet [13700]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 3:26 PM
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Really good perspective. Thanks-
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 3:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have considered that. ] |
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Do you really feel like Indiana, Northwestern, Illinois are all that much better from a support standpoint that some of the 6 ACC teams you mention? I feel Syracuse, Boston College, GT, and Virginia have better support, particularly when they are having a decent season.
I wouldn't consider Missouri and Kentucky to be all that much better than these guys either most years.
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 4:42 PM
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So, just to be clear, I'm not talking about how competitive or 'good' a team might be - as a league we check those boxes fine. I'm referencing the institutional, student, and alumni commitment to football of programs throughout. The B1G programs you mentioned could certainly be lumped in along with our six, though they invest more heavily than ours, have bigger stadiums, and turn out fans more regularly. Northwestern has been investing massively in its football program, courtesy of new ACC Director Jim Phillips. On the SEC side Kentucky comes close to filling the bill from a historical perspective, but with a 61,000 seat stadium they far outsize our six, and a recent $120 Million upgrade just completed further sets them apart. Again, it's not competitive levels here - it's facilities, fans, and institutional buy-in.
Everybody wants to be good in any sport they compete in, and every program does what they can with what they have to accomplish that. That certainly goes for the ACC Six as well. Our issue is that those programs, and have to add UNC here also, just haven't invested adequately, or embraced football properly for what it can offer an institution and its fans, and its league brethren for that matter. They haven't hooked their athletic fortunes to football over the years, and don't seem primed to really anytime soon. Sure there will be a new facility here and there, stadium upgrades on the corporate and fan engagement side, but that's roughly it. It's a nice part of their overall collegiate offering, but it's not the driver that it is like we see throughout the SEC and B1G.
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All-TigerNet [13700]
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 5:13 PM
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Excellent find. Thank you.
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All-In [44050]
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I hear what you're saying
Jul 19, 2022, 4:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have considered that. ] |
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but I feel that you're minimizing the football commitment at places like Georgia Tech, UVA, and UNC. All three of those schools really want to be good at football. Their fans really care about football. Their stadiums are good environments when their teams are good. They just have all had a lot of misfortune lately, especially UVA.
Both GT and UNC played for conference championships in the not-too-distant past. They've both had some really good teams at times. That didn't happen by accident. They happened because they want to be good at football. Easier said that done though.
Just because a school hasn't been good doesn't mean that they don't want to be good. People like to generalize GT fans as nerds or UNC and UVA fans as elitist or caring more about basketball, but that has nothing to do with their passion for football.
I just don't see the same degree of bad football teams in the ACC like I do in the SEC and Big 10. What the ACC has lacked recently is two consistently good, top 10 teams. The SEC always has that. Big 10 has had that recently. With FSU, Miami, and Virginia Tech all down recently, they remove the chances of the ACC having two consistently good teams.
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I hear what you're saying
Jul 19, 2022, 4:56 PM
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See reply above - it covers most of this. I'm not minimizing their performance or desire to win - I agree that competitively we can hang with either of those leagues and stated so. It's the infrastructure, institutional support, and overall student and alumni support for football that I'm identifying as lacking when it comes to those programs both hosting contests and participating in away events.
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Heisman Winner [140555]
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“Their stadiums are good environments when their teams…
Jul 19, 2022, 9:36 PM
[ in reply to I hear what you're saying ] |
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are good.” - JK
Noted.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: I have considered that.
Jul 19, 2022, 4:04 PM
[ in reply to I have considered that. ] |
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The problem is the "good solid" teams keep ######## the bed when they play out of conference competition.
NC State is a perfect example.
They are a solid program that puts talent into the NFL especially at QB/running back/DL.
but every time they play an out of conference game they blow it and sometimes badly.
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CU Guru [1203]
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I’m ok with NCST pooping their pants
Jul 19, 2022, 7:21 PM
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On any given Saturday. Same for UNC
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 2:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment ] |
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Which team anywhere has truly excelled after leaving their “ancestral ” conference over the last decade plus?
Nebraska, Maryland, Rutgers, Colorado and Missouri have all either seen their programs decline or stay stuck in mediocrity. A&M pretty much the same. They may have all the money on the world and hired a big name coach but their still more likely than not to be 8-5 every year.
Like previously said, Miami, VT and BC have all gone backwards. Utah and TCU did improve changing conferences but they were moving up from G5 to P5. Over the last twenty years I can’t think of a move that really worked in terms of football performance. Heck, go back 30 years and include Scar and Arky. A good year here and there, but normally somewhere between mediocre and horrendous.
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110%er [8009]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 2:34 PM
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I somewhat agree with your points, not much the ACC can do for Clemson at this point. It is what it is. I think the damage was done long ago by weak leadership in the conference and a lack of forward thinking. The ACC ALWAYS reacted to what was going on around them.
The SEC leadership found the loophole in getting to 12 schools to stage a conference championship game. It added value.
The Big 10 grabbed Penn State, at a time when Penn State would have loved to be a part of an all east coast conference. It added value.
Who was the first conference to add value by going to 14? Wasn’t the ACC.
The ACC was content to sit back and watch the changes all around them, only to react and play follow the leader. When we were trying to catch up, the other conferences were already planning and executing their next moves.
The ACC and PAC stubbornly clung to what had always been. It’s no coincidence those two leagues are dying.
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CU Medallion [64591]
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Miami and VT just didn't live-up to the billing, but...
Jul 19, 2022, 2:45 PM
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before Louisville joined the ACC, they were accepting an unlimited number of partial qualifiers. Shortly after they joined, the ACC mandated that Louisville stop accepting unlimited partial qualifiers. Once that occurred, Louisville's success on both the football field and the basketball court declined.
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Standout [342]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 2:53 PM
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I agree it isn't all the ACC's fault. Hind sight is always 50/50 but we need to see change when its coming and move to adapt to it. Can't change the past but the way football is going to survive you need money and the money comes from TV and TV money comes from viewers. To get more viewers to watch you need to expand your foot print. The ACC needs to be aggressive now big time if it wants survive and grow which will be required. The ACC needs to bring in the best four additional schools they can to increase TV markets. Without killing travel expenses the best four to bring in would be Cincinnati, West Virginia, Oklahoma State, and either Texas Tech or TCU. But the ACC needs to move fast because other conferences are going to grab who they can and fast so that they can survive.
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 3:34 PM
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This is in the best interest of the ACC and not necessarily Clemson (which would likely be best served to switch conferences), but I think the ACC needs to be aggressive also and go ahead and go to 21 teams. Form 3 divisions each made of 7 teams, and have a playoff for the conference championship consisting of the 3 division winners and the highest ranked non-division winner. The regular season would consist of playing the 6 teams in your division plus one from each of the other 2 divisions (or it could be 9 games if that makes the media guys happy). The regular season would have to start one week earlier than at present to be able to schedule the conference semi-final games.
The 7 teams can either be Texas/Mid-west based or west coast based, but that would definitely open the door for new media rights negotiations. The new media rights negotiation needs to have a clause in there that the per-school payout CANNOT be lower than 80% of average per-school payout of any other conference's average payout. The media company is getting more schools over a larger footprint, an additional week of games at the beginning of the season, the additional semi-final games that would draw a sizeable audience, and possibly an extra conference game for each school.
There are enough good schools out there that future National Championship playoffs would never be able to overlook this 21 team conference for a spot. I really think this is the only way the ACC can get back into the conversation of being a "superconference" in the future.
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 3:09 PM
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I think that the ACC negotiated a contract that was too long. But as I have said before it is the other schools that have not been investing in football until recently that are primarily to blame.
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Orange Blooded [3945]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 3:45 PM
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How are they supposed to invest in football when they are getting 10's of millions less from the ACC every year? This is what has allowed the weaker teams in the SEC to rise above their counterparts in the ACC!
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Orange Blooded [3945]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Go away.
One question first. You seem like the type of guy that has had multiple black eyes in your life from talking smack. How many have you had?
I once had a roommate that was really smart and witty but was an absolute ego maniac when he got drunk. During my time with him he showed up at least three times with huge black eyes. You seem a lot like him.
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All-In [44050]
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LOL okay.***
Jul 20, 2022, 2:43 PM
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Orange Blooded [3945]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Go away.
One question first. You seem like the type of guy that has had multiple black eyes in your life from talking smack. How many have you had?
I once had a roommate that was really smart and witty but was an absolute ego maniac when he got drunk. During my time with him he showed up at least three times with huge black eyes. You seem a lot like him.
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CU Guru [1912]
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Re: The frustration with the ACC over conference realignment
Jul 19, 2022, 4:10 PM
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You are wrong Judge! Swofford intentionally drug his Tarheel feet on the TV contract. Why? Because his son was heavily involved with Jefferson Pilot carrying ACC games. Then , Swofford folded like a cheap lawn chair when negotiating with ESPN. Add in the golden opportunity during Covid of holding Notre Dame to the fire {join or get out}... , then add in the extra year of probation that was done away with as soon as UNC got in trouble.... NO! Judge, just go back to your poor attempts to bash Dabo! The ACC has never done our Tigers any favors!
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Orange Blooded [2989]
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I think a lot of this is being caused more by cutthroat big business
Jul 20, 2022, 6:02 AM
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and not really about our league members or their sports identities, athletic programs etc.
Most of the mainstream tv sports media is not reporting on their own media executives (or by name), or what they have been up to. For example, ESPN has been building up their SEC brand for well over a decade ever since their first big conference deal. It's been evident in the way they hype, favor, report on, sometimes propagandize, and support their own product, while occasionally dissing on their competitors.
Simply put, this has been in the slow works for a long time.
The ACC has schools that have won three national championships in "football" in the last decade. Probably should have been four. If you hadn't thought about it lately, excluding the SEC, none of the other three Power 5 conferences have any schools (even the more supposed football ones), that have won any championships (edit: except Osu in 2014, after they came off of probabtion).
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Orange Blooded [2543]
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My biggest gripe with the ACC was letting Notre Dame in for
Jul 20, 2022, 10:01 AM
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the 2020 season. ACC should have left them out. Sick of them thinking they are bigger than everyone else.
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