|
Replies: 89
| visibility 1
|
All-In [34823]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41036
Joined: 2/6/01
|
Pay gap?
Feb 26, 2015, 12:38 PM
|
|
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
 |
Oculus Spirit [79429]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63272
Joined: 10/30/05
|
And bishes STILL expect you to pay for everything
Feb 26, 2015, 12:40 PM
|
|
Equality means you pay for your own #### monica's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: and then wanna blame you for them cheating***
Feb 26, 2015, 12:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79429]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63272
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Sorry bae, havin' to work overtime to pay for the
Feb 26, 2015, 12:48 PM
|
|
wrecks you keep having.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: You're never around you're always at work
Feb 26, 2015, 1:01 PM
|
|
I needed to get my poosay stuffed b/c #love
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
I do love getting into this debate, especially since I
Feb 26, 2015, 12:41 PM
|
|
work with a bunch of poor women who always have to take time off for their kids. Some folks idea of equal work is a bit skewed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: So you choose one of the 5 lowest paid occupations***
Feb 26, 2015, 12:45 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
I'm some sort of prisoner, paying for the
Feb 26, 2015, 12:48 PM
|
|
sins of a previous life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Is prisoner a BA or BS?***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:53 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Either or.***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:54 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34593]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41422
Joined: 4/20/01
|
as big a lie as global warming...***
Feb 26, 2015, 12:43 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81061]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56140
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Then they also complain they don't get enough time off
Feb 26, 2015, 12:46 PM
|
|
for their kids.
When it's 4:30 on a friday and some #### breaks and I'm here straight through until Monday...noone asks me how my kids are doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
What Pattie was really howling about is the fact that
Feb 26, 2015, 12:47 PM
|
|
in that bastion of liberal dogma, Hollywood, male actors, as a whole, get paid more than females. The reason? They have a larger draw in movies. Why? Do you think that maybe it is women wanting to pay to go see them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34823]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41036
Joined: 2/6/01
|
That, and the fact that she is getting old and fat.
Feb 26, 2015, 12:51 PM
|
|
There, I said it.
It isn't that life should be fair, because it isn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Granted, a bunch of liberal actors will not see it this way,
Feb 26, 2015, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to What Pattie was really howling about is the fact that ] |
|
but if I'm a studio and people are hassling me, I'd say the actors are actually sales people instead of whatever in the hell they are called.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
Rush had the answer to this injustice.
Feb 26, 2015, 12:55 PM
|
|
Male actors should give part of their pay to their female counterparts so that everyone's pay will be equal. Surely none of the Hollywood liberals would object to this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Pre-Med and Pre-Law aren't 2 of the top 5 paying majors?***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:32 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: Did you not read the graphic?***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:45 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
umm....yes?***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:46 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: well it didn't stutter***
Feb 26, 2015, 1:53 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
enlighten me please***
Feb 26, 2015, 2:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: enlighten me please***
Feb 26, 2015, 2:07 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
And where are pre-med and pre-law?....
Feb 26, 2015, 2:13 PM
|
|
.canttellifserious
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29036]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 36097
Joined: 8/28/00
|
Were I guessing
Feb 26, 2015, 2:19 PM
|
|
I'd say that both Pre-Med and Pre-Law are necessary gateways to higher degrees and higher earnings, but without those higher post-grad studies they aren't as high earning (obviously). Whereas the other degrees listed stand on their own much more often.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Then it's an odd statistic...
Feb 26, 2015, 2:23 PM
|
|
To get that stat, I would think you would take a look at folks that got the different degrees and then look at the earning in say...10 years. Hard to believe pre-med wouldn't be in it, although I realize not all pre-med folks go on to be docs...but a good many of them do.
Unless it's look at something like starting salaries..then is should have been worded a little differently.
Of course none of that is to take away from whiny bishes bish'n about pay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29036]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 36097
Joined: 8/28/00
|
I'm thinking it's a "final degree" thing
Feb 26, 2015, 3:22 PM
|
|
Meaning they didn't pursue further education.
Just a guess, and yes, it is an odd statistic to choose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: And where are pre-med and pre-law?....
Feb 26, 2015, 6:15 PM
[ in reply to And where are pre-med and pre-law?.... ] |
|
I make almost twice as much as my lawyer buddies. Law degrees are like teaching degrees at this point. Too many law schools and too many lawyers being produced. Most law students end up doing document review and getting paid 40k a year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83127]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80161
Joined: 11/29/99
|
I have 3 family members and 5 close friends who are
Feb 26, 2015, 8:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: And where are pre-med and pre-law?.... ] |
|
attorneys and all make more than $150,000. I assume I'm a lot older than you so maybe they are a lot older than your lawyer friends and that's the reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [111618]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73767
Joined: 9/10/03
|
Re: And where are pre-med and pre-law?....
Feb 26, 2015, 8:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: And where are pre-med and pre-law?.... ] |
|
I guess we are to believe that you make over 250k and chose the frozen tundra of Michigan as a perk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [50635]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43019
Joined: 12/3/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Probably so, if it is a hot woman trying to be a call girl
Feb 26, 2015, 3:26 PM
|
|
to the Vegas whales.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7013]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5127
Joined: 8/30/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5298]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6287
Joined: 10/9/06
|
Re: Pay gap?
Feb 26, 2015, 2:41 PM
|
|
I think there is probably some truth to the pay gap. My wife recently became the manager of a large federal program. She makes less than half of what the male running the job before her made. We don't have any kids, and I think she has missed work for being sick around 4-5 times in the last 5 years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Less than half is a pretty big.
Feb 26, 2015, 3:00 PM
|
|
But, what was he making when he started the job? How long was he in it? What kind of experience did he have coming into the job that may be different?
She should try to figure out the increases over time and if her increases aren't the same %wise and the program can't justify why, then she can try to get the OFCCP involved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22718]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46006
Joined: 3/27/08
|
Re: My ex got her masters in early childhood ed.
Feb 26, 2015, 3:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Pay gap? ] |
|
I had an assoc in computer science. We made the same out. #equality
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
u get summers off and 2.5 wks at christmas?***
Feb 26, 2015, 5:55 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
The bottom half of the graphic really misses the point
Feb 26, 2015, 3:27 PM
|
|
I'm sure it does it on purpose.
The problem is that women get paid less for doing the same job as men. The fact that more men are petroleum engineers has nothing to do with the argument.
As far as women having to take off time to take care of kids. Well, maybe she should get her husband to do that. I guess this might be the only time the bottom half of the graphic is pertent to the discussion. It's possible that women take off more time than men because they work in jobs that pay less then their husbands.
Anyway, just wanted to point out that this post argues a point no one is trying to make.
Message was edited by: drewtigeralum03®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
That is half the fun of it?***
Feb 26, 2015, 3:34 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I suppose so
Feb 26, 2015, 3:43 PM
|
|
Mumbo knows how to sell what his audience is buying. Good for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Are you saying that graphic doesn't do an
Feb 26, 2015, 3:45 PM
|
|
oranges to oranges comparison?
This does not change my point that some folks think their work is equal when it isn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Makes an argument that no one is arguing
Feb 26, 2015, 3:51 PM
|
|
The issue women have is that they get paid less to do the same jobs. This is especially pertinent as they move up the ladder of success.
The fact that more men are petroleum engineers and more women are teachers has nothing to do with the argument about a wage gap. What would be pertinent would be a comparison between the salaries of equally qualified men and women petroleum engineers. That's really the heart of the argument. No one is saying a female cashier should get paid the same a male doctor.
Also, the pay gap, is generally seen in more advanced positions, not in entry level jobs, which again, I'm sure the graphic maker understands, which is why he adds in the little part at the end about 22-30 year olds (usually in entry level or early career jobs) and doesn't look into more advanced positions, which again, is where the wage disparity argument really kicks in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
You are right on the graphic.
Feb 26, 2015, 4:00 PM
|
|
Doesn't change the fact that same job and equal work don't mean the same thing.
*It isn't that I don't think women deserve fair pay, it is that all the ones I get into the debate with get far too emotional instead of having numbers to support them.
Message was edited by: aerozeptallica®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Totally agree with you on that
Feb 26, 2015, 4:04 PM
|
|
If a woman wants to cry and complain instead of bringing facts to the argument she needs to get back in the kitchen and make both of us a sandwich.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
And start out arguing the right argument.***
Feb 26, 2015, 4:07 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Yup
Feb 26, 2015, 4:10 PM
|
|
The only argument that needs to be made is when 2 people of equal experience and qualifications get paid differently because one has a ##### and the other has a ######.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
I made a chick cry once talking about this.
Feb 26, 2015, 4:15 PM
|
|
She was really getting on my nerves. So I said, forget that I have been here a year longer and have a degree. Say we are totally equal in experience and performance where customers are concerned. Hell, I'll even say we have the same attendance record. Then I said, "pick up that box of copy paper." She could not. In fact, it would take her 3 trips to the store room to do what I could do in one.
I then told her if she is going to debate somebody about this, she'd best admit what she doesn't do as well then find what she can clearly do better than somebody.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Actually...
Feb 26, 2015, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to Makes an argument that no one is arguing ] |
|
for a lot of the more prestigious jobs, women are actually paid more than men. There's just generally going to be a difference in pay between genders in different professions, and there's almost no way to determine how much of that difference is due to discrimination.
It's also true that in the younger demographic, more women are going to college and medical school, and more women are paid more than men for the same jobs. If those same women end up not making as much later in life, we could either assume that was entirely due to discrimination or we could also attribute that to the fact that older women (those older than 30) are the ones who are taking time out of their careers to have children and raise families. Again, by equalizing pay, we might choose to value women's choices above men's, or at least to deflate the value of men's choices for productivity, but we need to be clear that's what we're doing.
One thing I would like conservatives to get behind is some sort of non- coercive or local/ state based way of increasing or ensuring maternal leave. If we want a more equal workplace without coercive equal pay measures (and, because women will perceive pregnancy as less of a threat to their careers, this may also reduce abortions), this seems like good policy. The difficulty would be avoiding the incentivization of single motherhood and the disincentivizing of productivity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81061]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56140
Joined: 9/13/04
|
hold on second here...
Feb 26, 2015, 4:29 PM
|
|
Are you saying that a woman gets an abortion because she think its will hurt her career?
I'd bet the stuff she really thinks about are "I can't afford this little b@stard" or "I don't even know the guy that knocked me up", or maybe "I know the guy and I want nothing in me that reminds me of him", or more likely "I'm 17..who is going to pay for me and the kid? I don't want to screw up my life because I was drunk and horny."
I'm betting her career opportunities are the last thing a woman thinks about when she get an abortion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
what do you think "I can't afford a kid" means?
Feb 26, 2015, 4:34 PM
|
|
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html
I'm not a fan of Guttmacher since they're basically the research arm of PP, but the second most common reason after "I just don't want a kid" is "disruption of education or employment," which is classified under "socioeconomic concerns" (ie. "I can't afford this little b@stard").
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79429]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63272
Joined: 10/30/05
|
I'd be willing to bet that society is better off without 90%
Feb 26, 2015, 4:42 PM
|
|
of those people actually having their children.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Maybe, maybe not
Feb 26, 2015, 4:46 PM
|
|
But we still don't usually say that's a good reason to kill a kid. Maybe if more pro- choice folks would use that argument, we'd have a little more of an honest debate.
Anyway, this isn't about abortion and I don't want to open that can of worms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
That's not what's measured, is it?
Feb 26, 2015, 3:57 PM
[ in reply to The bottom half of the graphic really misses the point ] |
|
The pay gap just refers to the average difference between men and women's earnings, not to any measurement of differences in pay for men and women doing the same job. Unfortunately, the stat that's often used to claim that discrimination is responsible for the pay gap, as defined above, simply assumes that all things are equal when they're not.
And, even outside of the technocratic questions involved in figuring out what the value of the pay gap actually is and how we should deal with it, there are political questions that I don't think have been explored well enough. For instance, what would it mean if there was no pay gap (as defined above)? It could mean that employers aren't taking gender into consideration when making salary decisions. Or it could mean that, because a large part of the pay gap is due to the difference between men's and women's choices, women are choosing to be more like men, thus raising their pay. It could also mean, based on the same assumption, that men are choosing to behave more like women, thus leveling pay across the board.
Finally, if the pay gap was collapsed due to legislation and inasmuch as the pay gap is due to different choices, it could mean that employers were forced to value feminine and masculine choices equally regardless of the productivity that results from those choices. Feminine choices would then gain value by legislative fiat, and the male choices which were previously valued because they led to more productivity would be deflated. This is why it's so important to find out whether discrimination really accounts for much of the pay gap: if nearly all of the pay gap is explainable by differences between men's and women's choices, then legislation that equalizes pay actually will enact a change in values, not just an end to arbitrary discrimination. It might be that the working world needs to be feminized and male productivity needs to be deflated, but if we pretend that all equalizing pay would do is end arbitrary discrimination, we're going to be blind to this political point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Could you explain this to me?
Feb 26, 2015, 4:03 PM
|
|
"It could mean that employers aren't taking gender into consideration when making salary decisions. Or it could mean that, because a large part of the pay gap is due to the difference between men's and women's choices, women are choosing to be more like men, thus raising their pay. It could also mean, based on the same assumption, that men are choosing to behave more like women, thus leveling pay across the board. "
So if my wife decides she wants to make money she is "acting like a man" and if I decide I want to help my wife make money I am "acting like a woman"?
Seems like something you probably believe actually, never mind, it makes sense now. Keep holding onto the past as the future rushes by Cam, it's easier that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65204
Joined: 12/2/02
|
I LOVE THE DREW AND CAM DISCUSSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***
Feb 26, 2015, 4:17 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65204
Joined: 12/2/02
|
Oh, and quit trying to be a woman by helping out with the
Feb 26, 2015, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to Could you explain this to me? ] |
|
kids. That is woman's work....like laundry, cooking, cleaning, breastfeeding, and giving handjobs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I get paid 20 bucks a HJ at the truck stop
Feb 26, 2015, 4:19 PM
|
|
Well, I guess that is probably woman work, but I have big hands and you can't see anything through the glory hole.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Pay attention instead of going into attack mode
Feb 26, 2015, 4:30 PM
[ in reply to Could you explain this to me? ] |
|
Analyses of the "pay gap" already tell us that a large part- perhaps nearly all- of the pay gap is due to differences in the choices that the average man or the average woman makes about their careers. We can pretend that some sort of technocratic "we" knows better than women, who must only be making the choices they're currently making because of a "false consciousness" brought on by patriarchal socialization, or we can recognize that men and women make different choices which are currently valued differently.
Most people who recognize that the pay gap has more to do with different choices than arbitrary discrimination think that ends the discussion- they've shown that employers might have good reasons for paying the average women lower than the average man. However, what you've apparently entirely missed, is that I was saying there's actually a political question there: if women's choices are leading them to be paid lower than men, then maybe the way we value work is too masculine. It might be the case we need to attune our values more to the choices women often need to make (which is just what "feminization" means). But that's a political question that's been largely ignored, because too many people think that either discrimination or choice explains everything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
If those choices make somebody less valuable to a company,
Feb 26, 2015, 4:34 PM
|
|
why should that company have to reward them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Re: If those choices make somebody less valuable to a company,
Feb 26, 2015, 4:36 PM
|
|
Maybe because they're committed to a completely sexually egalitarian society where women can make the choices that the average woman does without being paid less. I'm not saying it should happen, but it's a debate worth having instead of pretending like employers are just looking at women and saying "let's pay her less."
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Yes, because that never happens
Feb 26, 2015, 4:38 PM
|
|
You have such faith in the morality of business, it really just confuses me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Should a woman get paid less because she
Feb 26, 2015, 4:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: If those choices make somebody less valuable to a company, ] |
|
takes the 12 weeks after having a baby, no. Should a woman get paid less because she takes significant time off and is thus not gaining experience, yes. Is anybody, man or woman, who is constantly having to take off because they have kids worth less than somebody who can and will always be there, yes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Translation
Feb 26, 2015, 4:36 PM
[ in reply to Pay attention instead of going into attack mode ] |
|
I use big words and write lengthy paragraphs, so just agree with me.
For instance:
"Analyses of the "pay gap" already tell us that a large part- perhaps nearly all- of the pay gap is due to differences in the choices that the average man or the average woman makes about their careers."
Whose analyses are you talking about? Why should I just take that statement on faith? You like to do this in your arguments. You like to make some definitive statement to start, and build from there, but what if I don't agree with your original premise?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
You won't dazzle me with sources
Feb 26, 2015, 4:55 PM
|
|
Mostly because you use partisan sources to make your point.
The Daily Beast: Conservative
Consad: Prepared for the conservative Bush labor
CBS: Labeled "OPINION" at the top of the piece
Wall Street Journal: Conservative
So, basically what you have is a bunch of people with your ideology that happen to agree with you, which makes what you are saying factual?
Is that how it works?
I can find sources on the other side of the argument as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Translation: I don't care about facts unless I agree w/ them
Feb 26, 2015, 5:10 PM
|
|
The Daily Beast is definitely not conservative, by the way.
I'm also guessing you didn't read through the pieces, since WaPo and the AAUW are linked to in the first piece. But I guess if you can claim the Daily Beast is conservative, the next thing you'll tell me is that WaPo and AAUW are too.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
You underestimate me Cam
Feb 26, 2015, 5:20 PM
|
|
Christina Hoff Sommer's wrote your Daily Beast article. She agrees with you, but does that make her right? I know several people that disagree with her. I know several people who consider her an anti-feminist.
So, I don't accept the facts as you present them, because they come from biased sources. You would do the same with any "facts" I posted.
You're "it's already been decided" start to your argument doesn't hold water, because I don't agree with your premise, and nothing you posted changed my mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Then it's actually not possible to change your mind
Feb 26, 2015, 5:29 PM
|
|
And, once again, it's humorous that you think Christina Hoff Sommers is an "anti- feminist." She's an "equity feminist" who's opposed to "gender feminism."
Message was edited by: camcgee®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
and it's not possible to change your mind
Feb 26, 2015, 5:33 PM
|
|
I know you want me to cede to your overwhelming intellect, but I see through a good bit of your B.S. You like to obscure and convolute your arguments, but once I wade through the distractions, I generally don't agree with your distilled opinions. I especially don't agree with them when you try and posit them as facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
You haven't actually made any arguments
Feb 26, 2015, 5:39 PM
|
|
What you've done is decided you can just ignore facts because you don't like the sources (and then ignored the sources that aren't conservative). Since apparently this is all about criticizing me personally, I'll say that right now you sound a lot more like junkyardtiger than your normal self.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
I stopped at "ignore facts"
Feb 26, 2015, 5:41 PM
|
|
because I don't believe them to be facts, as I accept the definition of fact.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
And that's probably all that needs to be said***
Feb 26, 2015, 5:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
When you put up your view of a controversial topic as fact
Feb 26, 2015, 6:05 PM
|
|
It just comes off as self important.
Sure, you can find some smart people that agree with you.
I can find some smart people that agree with me.
I'm willing to say that this is certainly still debatable.
You say that the debate is over and that your side is totally right.
I don't agree with you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
That's because it is a fact
Feb 26, 2015, 10:57 PM
|
|
But, just like with global warming, you can always find someone who will disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Unlike global warming
Feb 27, 2015, 1:58 PM
|
|
It's more than just your tin foil hat pals that don't agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Your standards are really high for "facts"
Feb 26, 2015, 10:56 PM
[ in reply to I stopped at "ignore facts" ] |
|
Apparently much higher than the Washington Post's, the St. Louis Fed's, or the Department of Labor's. Very impressive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
and some people consider her an anti-feminist, correct?
Feb 26, 2015, 5:40 PM
[ in reply to Then it's actually not possible to change your mind ] |
|
or nahh, because I know several people that consider her just that, but then again, maybe the people I know aren't people? She is the "feminist' the right likes to quote because they agree with her on a few issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Some do, yes
Feb 26, 2015, 5:46 PM
|
|
But I'd need to hear the argument for why. Somehow, though, I'm the person just asserting things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
You used her article as proof that you were right
Feb 26, 2015, 6:02 PM
|
|
and that you are dealing with "facts".
She is well known because she is a feminist with views that contradict what most would consider "modern feminism". She claims she is just kicking it old school and everyone else has lost their way. Other people say she is just a reactionary, using her contradictory views to gain notoriety.
Either way, I hardly view her as someone that provides "proof" one way or the other. She has a vested interest in her theory being right. I don't agree with her theory on gender, and therefore, I don't agree with her argument.
Once again, you don't seem to understand that I don't agree with your original premise, and I'm not alone in agreeing with your original premise. If I concede to your original premise, I would agree with your argument. I just don't agree that it has been "settled" and that "everyone agrees" with what you are positing as basic and indisputable fact.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
I don't think you actually read the article
Feb 26, 2015, 11:01 PM
|
|
Because it wasn't just an opinion piece without citations. Those citations, you might've notices, are also used by the WaPo, the St. Louis Fed, and the Department of Labor. You don't have to believe what these people say, but you don't actually have any arguments against the facts they cite (yes, even social science results are facts) other than that you don't like the sources (which you didn't really investigate).
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
None of those actually argue against what I said
Feb 27, 2015, 4:50 PM
|
|
In fact, the WaPo "5 myths" piece makes a very similar point to what I said here:
5. To close the pay gap, we should focus on deterring discrimination.
Passing laws that make it harder for workplaces to discriminate based on sex is important. But gender discrimination accounts for only 25 to 40 percent of the pay gap, depending on which labor economists you consult. And since discrimination is already illegal, the ways in which it persists are subtle and may be challenging to address directly through legislation.
What could make a big difference would be if workplaces reconsidered how they compensate their employees — and were more transparent about it. Rather than disproportionately rewarding workers for putting in long hours and making themselves available around the clock, they should reward high-quality work and allow employees more of the flexibility they need to balance work and family demands.
For example, when Google increased family leave from three months to five and made it fully paid, the company saw a 50 percent drop in the number of moms who quit. Several states and companies are also moving in the direction of offering paid family leave, recognizing that these kinds of family-friendly policies not only boost morale, productivity and loyalty, they also address the other factors that contribute to the pay gap.
Next time, before you go into attack mode, actually try and understand what somebody's saying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13190]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 19419
Joined: 9/27/04
|
Here is my issue with your argument
Feb 27, 2015, 5:21 PM
|
|
"Analyses of the "pay gap" already tell us that a large part- perhaps nearly all- of the pay gap is due to differences in the choices that the average man or the average woman makes about their careers."
Thus sayth Cam
"Meanwhile, men, especially white men, tend to make more than women in female-dominated jobs and advance relatively easily into supervisory roles."
Thus sayth the article.
Those two things don't seem to agree with each other, unless you are arguing that women are making the choice to be women. Then you have a point, but I don't know if fetuses can make those sorts of decisions.
Let me say it again, just for clarity. I do not believe that the following statement is true. I have shown that other people also believe this statement to be untrue. This is the first sentence in your response. Your argument hinges on me agreeing with this sentence, and I don't agree with it.
"Analyses of the "pay gap" already tell us that a large part- perhaps nearly all- of the pay gap is due to differences in the choices that the average man or the average woman makes about their careers."
Message was edited by: drewtigeralum03®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Re: Here is my issue with your argument
Feb 27, 2015, 6:18 PM
|
|
Here is what the 5th myth in the WaPo article says: "Passing laws that make it harder for workplaces to discriminate based on sex is important. But gender discrimination accounts for only 25 to 40 percent of the pay gap, depending on which labor economists you consult. And since discrimination is already illegal, the ways in which it persists are subtle and may be challenging to address directly through legislation." Other analyses say that the portion of the pay gap open to be attributed to discrimination is somewhere between 4 and 8 cents on the dollar (that is, between 17% and 35% of the pay gap). At any rate, you didn't post anything based on statistical analysis that says gender discrimination accounts for more than 40% of the pay gap.
The author goes on to point out that current business practices are largely based on the kinds of choices that men generally make, and that closing the pay gap might require changing the workplace to make more attuned to women's choices. This was pretty much what the rest of my post was saying. Since most of the pay gap is not attributable to arbitrary gender discrimination, it might be the case that the only way to close the pay gap is change the values of the workplace which currently are based on men's choices- choices which tend to be made in favor of higher productivity rather than time with family, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31896]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37187
Joined: 11/22/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11019]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12358
Joined: 7/5/03
|
For every $1 a man gets, a woman gets $0.77 that's not fair.
Feb 26, 2015, 3:49 PM
|
|
The man is only left with $0.23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75719]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108850
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Not if you count always having to take his car places.***
Feb 26, 2015, 3:49 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12763]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20268
Joined: 10/16/00
|
NOT the jpeg I was expecting. i has dissapoint***
Feb 26, 2015, 5:00 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93670]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95422
Joined: 12/25/09
|
My BF gives BJs free, my GF charges a fortune. HTHIA***
Feb 26, 2015, 10:41 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 89
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
