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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108521]
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When supply side economics encounters a supply problem
Nov 29, 2023, 9:46 AM
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Been saying this forever. The Inflation we have is supply driven. It's not people flush with money driving prices up (demand). But the housing supply crisis is ongoing. I would suggest builders start building smaller, cheaper houses to ease this mess that will probably take many years to stabilize.
No one is selling. And not enough builders are building, especially houses people can afford. They're still building large 3% and 4% homes in an 8% market. Makes no sense.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-s-home-prices-climb-for-seven-month-in-a-row-to-a-record-high-case-shiller-says-0c0d79b4
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Been saying this for a while: you have to start with zoning reform.
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Nov 29, 2023, 10:02 AM
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No point in building smaller on a large lot restricted to SFH because the land price is going to eat away at any value in building smaller dwellings. So long as developers are restricted to SFH, they're going to build as big as they can on lots.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Nobody wants to live 10' from their neighbor.
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Nov 29, 2023, 10:39 AM
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I had a house like that, and when the airbnb's came in, I had to go.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Yeah. Because you're what...ancient?
Nov 29, 2023, 10:44 AM
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If you're in your 20s or early 30s, single or newly married -- there is increasing demand for living in a walkable neighborhood in a city. The explosion of development in the South End of Charlotte would prove my point.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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To add, I predict you're going to see changing floorplans for multi-bedroom
Nov 29, 2023, 10:46 AM
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city apartments that move away from being designed for roommates, and instead are designed with young families in mind.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Me not wanting to live next door to the 24x7 bacherlorette parties doesn't
Nov 29, 2023, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to Yeah. Because you're what...ancient? ] |
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make me ancient; it makes me someone who has to work in the morning.
I feel sorry for anyone who chooses to buy a house in a "high density" zoned area.
Downtown CHS is also filling up with Condos/APTS/Whatever you want to call them. Its the high rent/high regime fee area. I'd bet 70% of the people who live there don't want to live there; but it seemed like a good idea to begin with. That the answer with 100% of the very few people I know who have bought/lived in one.
A young couple, especially one that is planning on kids...doesn't want to live in essentially an apartment.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Market trends would suggest you are wrong.***
Nov 29, 2023, 10:54 AM
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Developers aren't building units for people who don't really want to live in them.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Apartments never get better.
Nov 29, 2023, 10:56 AM
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I guess everyone has to figure it out.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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And once they do, there's a backlog of people willing to take their place.***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:00 AM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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To live in chitty apartments?***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:05 AM
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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No, city apartments are mostly vacant and rent has bottomed out.***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:44 AM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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So what are you arguing about?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:05 PM
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You just got done telling me people want condos in cities, but now you are saying they don't, and I'm ancient because I said they don't.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Forgot to hit the sarcastic key.***
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:11 PM
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Orange Elite [5238]
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National Champion [7722]
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Re: When supply side economics encounters a supply problem
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Nov 29, 2023, 10:02 AM
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Can't speak for elsewhere but there's been a shift from big single family home construction to townhome/condo construction in my area. Presumably in response to higher rental rates forcing people who now can't afford those single family homes into purchasing townhouses.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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There is also changing consumer taste to trade city accessibility for
Nov 29, 2023, 10:17 AM
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yards/cars.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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That must have really changed from 2 years ago.
Nov 29, 2023, 10:53 AM
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Those very same folks were getting the hell out of cities in 2021.
Do you have some business interest in high density homes? I've seen you espouse this fanaticism over living on top of someone you don't know before, and never understood why.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I forgot to ask...
Nov 29, 2023, 10:58 AM
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Do you live in a "high density" home or condo/apt?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Where do you think they're going?
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Nov 29, 2023, 11:09 AM
[ in reply to That must have really changed from 2 years ago. ] |
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More big cities in the South. They're not leaving because of high density living. They're leaving the North and the cost of living there, and looking for similar city access/life without the costs. And that's just one demo. Young adults want the city experience, for however long. Again, look at the South End of Charlotte and the number of cranes you'll see putting up apartments. There is also a ton of infill housing with zero yard -- again, because that's what's in demand.
My stanning for high density housing isn't fanaticism. It's a proven, pragmatic approach to housing affordability, which is both based on the economics of supply/demand, but also reflective of changing preference for housing. There will always be demand for SFH homes with yards and privacy. We left the South End of Charlotte for that. But the same people complaining about housing costs are the same ones who think building more SFH is going to bring them down.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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If people actually "want" a condo-apt to live in, it's because its cheaper
Nov 29, 2023, 11:24 AM
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not because it's more preferred over any size house.
I've been looking to buy a rental for a while, and am primarily looking at one area for a condo. If i could afford to buy a second home to rent out, I would. I don't prefer to buy condo...its just that its cheaper.
And this idea of wanting to "live in the city" stuff you keep saying I just don't see, at least not en masse. Maybe it's different here; I dunno. Younger people I meet in bars and restaurants in Mt Pleasant (and I go out quite a bit and meet a lot of folks of all ages) that can't afford to live here uber from other areas like West Ashley or James Island or even downtown. They ride right through the "city" to get here.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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You are arguing from your own perspective and experience.
Nov 29, 2023, 11:45 AM
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Not from market trends pushing developers in this direction.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Thats the only one I have.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:01 PM
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"market trends" are what developers are offering because it makes more money for them.
Are you a developer?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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No, but as someone interested in this policy space, I follow several.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:04 PM
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I'm going to trust their read of the market, and what people are demanding, because they have millions tied into developments and don't often build housing people don't want to live in. They do a ton of market research, and build where housing trends are heading.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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So interest rates being super low, the pandemic, remote work, the rise of
Nov 29, 2023, 12:13 PM
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airbnb's, wall street buying swaths of houses at a time, and now there is low inventory because people in <=3% mortgage rates don't want to sell, so housing prices continue to go up even more.
None of that had anything to do with housing prices going up?
Well then it only makes sense it was all zoning regulations that caused it. /Sarcasm
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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I never said that.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:17 PM
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In fact, you're the one readily dismissing supply as a non-issue in this equation because it doesn't fit within your personal experience.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I never ignored it; supply is the root of the issue.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:25 PM
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But supply being a problem is certainly not because of overly restrictive zoning regulations.
Developers are building rectangular concrete monoliths with ridiculous regime fees because simply, that's where the money is. Much like you living in an apt rather than a house when you were 20...people can't afford the houses that are available.
If zoning regulations were as restrictive as you say they are, the CHS skyline wouldn't look like they are building a massive prison system downtown.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Right. Because nobody wants to live in downtown Charleston.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:36 PM
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They are forced to.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Sure. Why would a waiter at Taco Boy rent a place downtown
Nov 29, 2023, 12:40 PM
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rather than buy a place in old village on Shem creek? That would suck, amiright?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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I guess it's nice that so many apartments going up gives him the ability
Nov 29, 2023, 12:44 PM
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to stay downtown with that type of lifestyle although he's still living off tips.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Nice....for whom?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:47 PM
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And if you were to ask him, where do you think he would rather live?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Downtown, renting, with the ability to walk to his job and stumble back
Nov 29, 2023, 12:48 PM
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home after going out at night.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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So its nice for *him*, correct?***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:50 PM
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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It's the lifestyle he wants.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:53 PM
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And thousands of other people want.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Thats the reason people live in the ghetto, too.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:55 PM
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Community[/i[]
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Yeahhhhhh. Downtown Charleston and South End Charlotte are real
Nov 29, 2023, 1:01 PM
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eyesores of destitution and poverty. God help Alex with protecting his art collections from the roving bands of young, white brokers.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Who is Alex?
Nov 29, 2023, 1:02 PM
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What are you talking about?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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CA, who lives in one of the most dense parts of Charlotte but
Nov 29, 2023, 1:10 PM
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certainly has the income to move further out.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I'm pretty sure CA doesn't live in a condo complex.
Nov 29, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Nor would he.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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No. I don't want to speak for him, but I would venture he
Nov 29, 2023, 1:16 PM
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prefers city access/short commute over space/quiet/yard.
You know — density.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Since he mentioned he is building a pool in his yard
Nov 29, 2023, 1:21 PM
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I don't think he had to make that choice. You would know better where he live in CLT than I would.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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He lives in the South End, which is incredibly dense, even with
Nov 29, 2023, 1:28 PM
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sizable SFH.
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TigerNet Immortal [176634]
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He lives in Dilworth, which actually is pretty average density.
Nov 29, 2023, 3:36 PM
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Very similar sized lots to the average tract development, but with much larger homes typically at this point (after all the teardown and rebuilds or enlargements have occurred). People in Dilworth aren't giving up space typically.
They are giving up the ability to leave the lawn mower in their front yard unattended for more than 20-30 minutes without it walking off.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Maybe not by lot size or house size
Nov 29, 2023, 3:47 PM
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But the spillover of South Blvd. development into Dilworth definitely makes it a high density area. I don't know the last time you've been in the South End, but it is truly unrecognizable even to me who lived there six years ago.
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TigerNet Immortal [176634]
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If you blend it with South Blvd and average it sure, but
Nov 29, 2023, 3:55 PM
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If you tell Alex he lives in South End I suspect you'll get a quick "ahem....Dilworth". Not trying to be Hairsplitter McPedantic, but Alex's hood is a bad example of the trends you're wanting to demonstrate. People move there for the prestige and historic homes as much if not more than for a love of urban planning, and while your Prius driving low to middle-middle classers who worried about their carbon footprint could afford to move there through the 90's and the aughts, that option no longer exists.
It's like Augusta Rd in Greenville or North Main......sure it's close to downtown, but people want to be 29605-ers because it's a ritzy area to live.
Now if we want to talk about a true South Ender living in a high rise next to the trolly stop, I'd be curious who you're seeing buy those. Here in Nashville in those true urban areas (and we have high rises for days now), it's young people and retirees/empty nesters. Very few people choose that environment for raising a family.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Of course you have to blend it for this conversation because
Nov 29, 2023, 4:02 PM
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As soon as he turns onto South or East Blvd., he's dealing with the impact of density from the South End. And I'm using him as an example of someone with the means to move, but so far hasn't, because I suspect that the proximity to uptown is more preferable to less density and a longer commute.
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TigerNet Immortal [176634]
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Again, it's a prestigious neighborhood with a lot of historic homes.
Nov 29, 2023, 4:09 PM
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If you want want both of those in Charlotte you can pay $1-2M for Dilworth or $3-4M+ around Queens Rd.
There isn't a high cachet neighborhood with early 1900's Craftsman bungalows in Waxhaw that he's choosing Dilworth over.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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That's some of it.
Nov 29, 2023, 4:11 PM
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But prestige only goes so far if you truly hate the density. You may come for the prestige, but you stay because of the lifestyle it brings.
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TigerNet Immortal [176634]
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I'll try once more. If you're in Dilworth, you aren't experiencing "Density"
Nov 29, 2023, 4:36 PM
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Traffic and clogged infrastructure is hellallover Charlotte, whether you're all the way down Independence Blvd in Weddington or in Dilworth.
The lot sizes in Dilworth are pretty much exactly the same there as in new housing in Weddington. "Density", whether viewed positively or negatively, is a moot point when considering Dilworth.
You have a quarter acre, 2000-2500 sq feet, a driveway and/or a garage, and zero walls, floor, or ceilings shared with anyone else. That's not a situation where you're overwhelmed with feelings of density.
The people truly in actual South End in a building with 100 other units and a direct neighbor to almost every wall in their apartment who have to circle the block or a parking deck multiple times for a spot and a tiny balcony as their only private outdoor space.....those people are choosing "density".
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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All-Time Great [90474]
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You bought a condo downtown CHS in your early 20's?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:03 PM
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I'm already doubting this.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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It was an apartment.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:05 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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So you RENTED an apartment in downtown CHS
Nov 29, 2023, 12:06 PM
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Why did you rent?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Because I was 20 and didn't have the income to buy.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:09 PM
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If I did have the income to buy in Charleston, I would 100% choose less square footage and proximity to downtown over more house and an I-26 commute.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Right.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:17 PM
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And now you get why people are moving into apartments. If there is a "trend", its because they are cheaper than houses. It's not a trend anyone wants, even the people who live in them. Ask a few of thos trend setters if they'd rather live in a house, or in a condo with 400 of their best friends living on top of them.
People are also living in campers, and I doubt many want to do that, either.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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You seem to be unaware that rent trajectory was an issue before
Nov 29, 2023, 12:19 PM
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interest rates went up.
And yes. I am arguing, with some authority, that people willingly want density over space.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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What people?
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:26 PM
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People who can't afford houses? Young Couples starting a family? Or 20 years olds who want to party?
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Apparently it's mean old zoning laws causing a housing shortage
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:33 PM
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I should build a massive condo building on some farm land in Pelzer and see how well it sells.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Because so many condos and apartments are sitting vacant in Clemson?***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:34 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I have no idea what the housing filled percentage is in Clemson.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:37 PM
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Are all the apartments in Clemson filled?
I wonder why a college kid would just not buy a house in Patrick Square or on the lake rather than rent in Goldenwoods?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Because they want to live closer to campus.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:39 PM
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WAIT. HOLY SHIZ. MAYBE THIS EXAMPLE CAN BE APPLIED TO PEOPLE MOVING TO CITIES AS WELL.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Really...thats the reason they wouldn't live on the lake?
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:41 PM
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Are you sure about that?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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100%.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:44 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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And we have gone right into BULLCHIT mode.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:47 PM
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Because that's what YOU want.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:50 PM
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I guarantee the vast majority of college students would choose to live with roommates in a small bedroom if it was in walking distance to downtown/campus, than alone in a lakefront house that was a 30min. drive away.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Has nothing to do with what I want.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:58 PM
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The next time I get to Clemson, I'll ask a few students what they would rather have. I'm no mind reader, but I can promise with almost 100% certainty what the answer will be.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Go for it.
Nov 29, 2023, 1:03 PM
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It's not like they didn't make an entire Always Sunny episode about this very thing. But hey. That's just a niche show nobody watches and wouldn't possibly be based on a relatable idea.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Well if a cable channel sit com made a show about it
Nov 29, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Holy chit
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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I get it. Little House on the Prairie is probably more your speed.***
Nov 29, 2023, 1:14 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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What your deal with the insults and personal stuff?
Nov 29, 2023, 1:20 PM
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Or I guess..attempted insults.
I mean its not that they bother me, I'm just trying to figure out why you'd choose to do that.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Lighten up. I still love you when we're not talking housing.***
Nov 29, 2023, 1:21 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Me lighten up?
Nov 29, 2023, 1:22 PM
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Your the insult guy today.
I don't have to go there, but then again, I'm not a developer fanboy.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I had no idea we were still depending on our neighbors to
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:36 PM
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help kill a woolly mammoth so we could all eat for the next 2 weeks.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Im sure you can see how tight knit communities are totally different
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:36 PM
[ in reply to Yes. That's why human history is littered with stories of humans surviving ] |
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Than an apartment complex due to the inherent stability and benefits they offer, right? Apartments and townhomes are a detriment to communities, for the most part. And the ones that aren’t sure as hell aren’t affordable.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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A community is bigger than your dwelling.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:37 PM
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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I understand, and thats why most communities fight apartment
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:39 PM
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Developments, because they know it’s detrimental to their community. You seem mad that they’re able to do so.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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They also tend to start bishing about cost of living.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:40 PM
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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Because their taxes go up to help subsidize the apartment dwellers
Nov 29, 2023, 12:42 PM
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Not to mention the general crime/traffic increases they usually bring. It’s not so much cost of living, but quality of living most people are concerned about. I thought multi family dwellings were supposed to help with cost of living, anyway?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Yeah....
Nov 29, 2023, 12:45 PM
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I mean, here in Charlotte we saw a massive surge in white collar crime after they started building more apartments.
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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I bet housing didn't become more affordable, either
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Nov 29, 2023, 1:17 PM
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Apartments have their place, and maybe Charlotte is one of them. But overall they are absolutely a detriment to the community they are built in. They're money makers for developers and that's about it, nobody is having their standard of living raised, nor is it becoming more affordable.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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He'll never accept this.***
Nov 29, 2023, 1:21 PM
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Heisman Winner [81103]
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lol, they may want to put the brakes on all of the development then
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Nov 29, 2023, 1:40 PM
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Higher vacancies don't exactly go hand in hand with economic prosperity for an area, the reality is you want some level of scarcity to maintain rent levels to keep an area nice. That's also coming off the heels of huge real estate price/rent increases, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
In my area housing has quadrupled at minimum, yet property and rent only increases exponentially. That's the case for most areas that aren't city centers. And then surrounding property owners get to foot the bill for new schools, roads, and other infrastructure necessary to support the increase in population. Which is kind of bulllshit considering they're the ones with skin in the game, the apartment renters can move on like locusts whenever they want.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Wait..are you really saying someone would rather live in a massive condo
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to A community is bigger than your dwelling.*** ] |
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than in a house with a yard so they can have a "community"?
Please, go on. This gets more bizarre as we go along.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Yes.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:46 PM
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You wouldn't. I don't. Others would, and do.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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They do, because its cheaper than buying a house.
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:48 PM
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And if you actually knew anyone that lives in a condo, thats exactly what they will tell you.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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No, they do because they prefer a lifestyle that you don't.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:52 PM
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And you are utterly incapable of recognizing these people exist.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Are you utterly incapable of understanding why they are doing what they are
Nov 29, 2023, 1:02 PM
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doing? It has zero to do with what I want. I already have what I want.
I find it VERY hard to believe that given the same costs, someone would choose living in a condo complex vs living in their own house.
Its very similar to teh choice of having a roommate vs NOT having a roommate.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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You can't believe it because you can't see past your own
Nov 29, 2023, 1:07 PM
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bias.
If we isolate the renting/owning variable, and just say where people would prefer to rent. Most, or at least a sizable percentage of people (that skews heavier the younger you go), would prefer to live in bigger complexes with less space if it came with more walkability and greater entertainment access, than bigger units with fewer neighbors at the cost of longer commutes and less social opportunity.
Isn't that why you lived in Mt. Pleasant, than say Goose Creek? Surely you could have afforded more for less out there.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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So you are primarily talking about younger people
Nov 29, 2023, 1:18 PM
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I'm assuming say, <28? <25? If you are, at this point I just realized I don't care.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Why didn't you buy in Goose Creek?
Nov 29, 2023, 1:24 PM
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Or McClellanville?
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I looked at Mclellanville.
Nov 29, 2023, 1:34 PM
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Doing my due diligence on the place, I found they don't have reliable internet. As I work from home, I require a primary and backup internet source. Neither is available. Hughesnet satellite is their only choice, or at least it was when I looked.
Frankly, I'm not going to live in Goose Creek. I don't like it there, and its too far from the ocean. You may choose to, but I'm not.
I mean if you are going to use that logic, I could have chosen a million places to live. How about in Hell's Half Acre, Wyoming? Or why not Warm River, Idaho?
If I could have afforded it, I would have stayed in Isle of Palms. Maybe they'll build some massive condo complexes for me to live in.
Pfftt That will never happen outside of Wild Dunes. The town knows better than to let something like that happen.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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So you chose to spend more for less because it gave you greater
Nov 29, 2023, 1:37 PM
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access to things and lifestyle you needed and wanted?
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All-Time Great [90474]
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It wasn't less
Nov 29, 2023, 2:03 PM
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I thought I explained McLellanVille and not affording to live on IOP?
I'm not living in a ghetto, I don't have to. So if that's the comparison you want to make, sure..die on that hill and compare it to living in a condo complex.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I didn;t hear him say he wanted to live in a condo complex
Nov 29, 2023, 1:23 PM
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Isn't that what we are talking about?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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No.
Nov 29, 2023, 1:25 PM
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You said it. I've been arguing zoning reforms that would allow for more -plexes, townhomes, tiny homes, and modestly sized SFHs on lots currently occupied by a single unit.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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But, I also maintain that people choose to rent in large complexes,
Nov 29, 2023, 1:29 PM
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choose to purchase condos, and choose density over space because it provides for them the lifestyle they want, not just because it is "cheaper."
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Whatever.
Nov 29, 2023, 1:35 PM
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I don't care any more.
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Orange Elite [5269]
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Re: That must have really changed from 2 years ago.
Nov 29, 2023, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to That must have really changed from 2 years ago. ] |
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Best decision I ever made was downsizing from a nice house with a big yard to a nice townhouse since I've gotten older. So much more extra money and way less time keeping everything up for a house that was too big for our needs.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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If your townhouse has steps...
Nov 29, 2023, 11:17 AM
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You'll be wanting out of that as you get older.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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To do what? Move into an oversized SFH with a yard too big to
Nov 29, 2023, 11:49 AM
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maintain himself?
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Well, ask someone who is 70 if they want to climb steps everyday
Nov 29, 2023, 11:59 AM
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to take a dump.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Ask someone who is 70 to clean a 2200sqft house and maintaining
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:07 PM
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half an acre, all on a fixed income.
Better yet, ask a young person who has a choice between high density living with walkable city access, or a house/yard with a 1.5hr. commute, which they prefer. I'm guessing your preference is not going to align with theirs.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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an hour and hlaf commute?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:14 PM
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2200 Sq ft house?
Next time, can you pick some extremes?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Right right right.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:21 PM
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I forgot to factor in the massive demographic who wants a bungalow on a florida key.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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I don't know what this means
Nov 29, 2023, 12:27 PM
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I assume its something personal, again.
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Orange Elite [5269]
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Assisted living because steps are a PIA?
Nov 29, 2023, 3:13 PM
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I've moved for less.
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Orange Elite [5269]
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Re: If your townhouse has steps...
Nov 29, 2023, 3:07 PM
[ in reply to If your townhouse has steps... ] |
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Why will I be wanting out? What is it that I will be wanting with a larger house and bigger yard besides more yard work?
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Paw Master [17240]
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Housing supply is low because banks are forced to give mortgages for
Nov 29, 2023, 10:15 AM
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millions that wouldn't qualify. Also, add in about 12-15 million more people in the country than a couple of years ago.
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TigerNet Icon [152585]
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Hi, yes, can you provide one (1) single instance where a bank
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Nov 29, 2023, 10:30 AM
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was forced to underwrite a mortgage that it didn't want to underwrite? Just one. And...GO.
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Paw Master [17240]
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Guess you never heard of CRA
Nov 29, 2023, 11:18 AM
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"The government has promoted bad loans not just through the stick of the CRA but through the carrot of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which purchase, securitize and guarantee loans made by lenders and whose debt is itself implicitly guaranteed by the federal government. This setup created an easy, artificial profit opportunity for lenders to wrap up bundles of subprime loans and sell them to a government-backed buyer whose primary mandate was to "promote homeownership," not to apply sound lending standards."
https://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html?sh=522d94f6364b
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Ring of Honor [22234]
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Oh how 2008 of you!***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:20 AM
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Paw Master [17240]
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It never went away and Biden's Housing Supply Action Plan adds to it***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:30 AM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Housing supply is low because interest rates were held artificially low for
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Nov 29, 2023, 11:43 AM
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too long, the pandemic allowed for remote work so people left undesirable winter locations for other places they wanted to live, wall street got involved in buying houses to turn into rental units, and grandpa down the street was buying every run down house in 50 miles at 2.x% interest to turn them into airbnb's.
If you really want to believe in some deep state voodoo about "the great reset" go ahead, but the real "great reset" about "owning nothing and liking it" was actually done buy a bunch of people that were warning us about the WEF coming after us...while they were the ones busy buying up all the housing causing prices to go up availability to crater, forcing those who wanted to buy a house...to rent.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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And zoning is restrictive that doesn't allow for more inventory to be built.
Nov 29, 2023, 11:51 AM
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And before you shoot your mouth off again. There was a single home down the street that sold, and was originally planned for a dozen townhomes. Community pushback struck down the plan. Now there are four mcmansions built, with no yard, costing about $1.75M each.
What's more to blame here? Lack of by-right development, or low interest rates?
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Lutz...you ARE a developer, aren't you?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:02 PM
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"restrictive zoning is the cause of all the problems1!"
Yeah, tear down that park and build condos! That's what everyone REALLY wants!
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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You don't need to be a developer to understand supply/demand.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:10 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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And you don't need to be one to know what makes more money
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:19 PM
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6 houses on an acre of land, a small condo building, or 2 SFH houses.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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Which does more to address housing supply?***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:21 PM
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Why don't you live in a condo?
Nov 29, 2023, 12:29 PM
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I mean..it addresses a housing issue, right?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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That's not *My* preference.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:31 PM
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Unlike you, I can understand the housing market is multi-faceted with preference, and what I want as someone in my late 30s is likely fundamentally different than say someone starting their career, or a young family who has no desire to spend their life in a car commuting.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Well I am ancient.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:34 PM
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What the eff could I know?
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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THAT'S BEEN MY POINT DUMBLEDORE.***
Nov 29, 2023, 12:37 PM
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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I'll leave it at this.
Nov 29, 2023, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Which does more to address housing supply?*** ] |
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Housing supply is low, and demand is high. That increases prices. There is no one-solution to fit this, but failing to address supply by building more housing is a fundamentally stupid idea. By doing things like reforming zoning restrictions (sqft. mins, parking mins, dwelling maxes) and strengthening by-right development, you enable developers to build more houses. This is especially true in major metro markets were existing space is harder to come by. But improving these aspects of developments, you allow developers to take a parcel with a SFH that would not change housing supply, and replace it with MFH (townhomes, Xplexes, condos, apartments) that adds multiple units to the housing supply.
That is basic ass math.
You may argue that people don't want this, but that is a personal opinion shaped by your experience. It is not what developers in these markets are seeing and saying. If you can't accept or understand this, whatever. I don't care. I fall back instead on the basic ass math.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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Developers develop because there is money to be made.
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:54 PM
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I think most would agree that a pre-Wynkoop Clemson is better than a post Wynkoop Clemson.
Wynkoop didn't build condos on college avenue for any altruistic reason other than lining his pocket. He'd build condos IN Death Valley if he could grease enough Clemson administrators palms to do so.
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Oculus Spirit [42986]
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If you value nostalgia and don't need to worry about affordability because
Nov 29, 2023, 1:09 PM
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you don't live there.
But, let's say Clemson expanded its enrollment but kept on-campus housing inventory static, and the off-campus inventory stayed static, you, as a student, might appreciate what he's done.
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Oculus Spirit [41157]
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Can I add a little something something to the you say people don't want
Nov 29, 2023, 8:53 PM
[ in reply to I'll leave it at this. ] |
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this part? You kinda say people don't want this further up in the thread:
And before you shoot your mouth off again. There was a single home down the street that sold, and was originally planned for a dozen townhomes. community pushback struck down the plan. Now there are four mcmansions built, with no yard, costing about $1.75M each.
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TigerNet Icon [152585]
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I realize this is difficult for you,
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Nov 29, 2023, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Guess you never heard of CRA ] |
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so let's try to simplify here: banking regulations exist to keep banks from doing overtly risky things with their funds. They don't exist to force banks to take on risk that they don't want to.
CRA allowed banks to lend to segments that they wouldn't lend to previously because they owned the risk. When the government takes on the risk for them, they cease giving a shit about the risk of default on those loans. Never once was a bank forced to lend $ it didn't want to lend. Stop being a dumbass.
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Paw Master [17240]
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Oh, so the govt was redlining and the banks pressured
Nov 29, 2023, 12:24 PM
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them to remove those restrictions? Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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TigerNet Icon [152585]
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It's a reflex. He can't help it.
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Nov 29, 2023, 10:46 AM
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See a problem? Must be because of libruls and poor people and Democrats.
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TigerNet Immortal [176634]
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Re: It's a reflex. He can't help it.
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Nov 29, 2023, 3:40 PM
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reflux
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TigerNet Icon [152585]
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He's a lonely child, so probably won't get a response.***
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Nov 29, 2023, 9:32 PM
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Clemson Sports Icon [52733]
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Just checked Zillow for BFE. Only houses under 200k are old crack houses
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Nov 29, 2023, 11:02 AM
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there's one right down the road that is recently remodeled and by remodeled I mean they redid the hardwood flooring and put in stainless steel appliances. Still the pink and green tile bathrooms from the 60's and the pine plank paneling everywhere.
300K.
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Campus Hero [13551]
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supply side is wrong, demand side is wrong, Austrian Economics is right.
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Nov 29, 2023, 1:41 PM
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The reason housing is FUBAR is because of the federal reserve artificially limiting the price of money (keeping interest low), not to mention endless bailouts whenever real estate lenders screw up.
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All-Time Great [90474]
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It may snow today; I agree ConspiracyTom***
Nov 29, 2023, 2:04 PM
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Top TigerNet [30197]
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Top TigerNet [30197]
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I respectfully disagree, at a macro level
Nov 29, 2023, 3:32 PM
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and we've gone through this before haha. Love you too much to go down the road again.
I will admit that I think you're correct in the microview of the housing market though, to a degree. Inventory levels in specific markets are too low relative to demand. But builders ain't having problems sourcing materials, are they?
There's still a ton of cash out there man. Nextdoor neighbors house sold in 48 hrs, $1.6ish million, cash.
Prices don't just keep going up if there aren't any buyers.
We don't have problems finding materials anymore. We got problems finding buyers. B/c buyers got problems finding cash.
Q4 and Q1 earnings will be extremely impactful, along w/ CPI prints. Retail, CPG, manufacturing, commercial real estate sectors are all on the verge of falling off a cliff.
Interestingly enough, mainstream analysts are predicting rate CUTS next year. To the tune of 1.25 - 1.75%. That's WILD, if you think about it.
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