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someone smarter than me
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someone smarter than me


Sep 24, 2015, 1:52 PM

please answer.

not to get too political and religious, but:

If we separate church and state, why is the pope speaking to congress in the Capitol?



followup statement, i am surprised some of those liars didnt burst into flames with the leader of the catholic church in such proximity. good thing those walls can't talk.

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Because that's not what separation of church and state means


Sep 24, 2015, 1:58 PM

If the pope came here and issued a bunch of edicts that our Congress was expected to follow, that would violate separation of church and state. But simply speaking to Congress, as the head of the Roman Catholic Church, doesn't violate any constitutional principle. Remember, our constitution wasn't written with republican secularism in mind, as the French did. Instead, we just intended that people would have the freedom to belong to whatever church they wanted to without the expectation of joining a national church. In fact, church services were held in the Capitol for a long time, and nobody seemed to have a problem with it.

This is pretty good on the subject: http://www.intercollegiatereview.com/index.php/2015/09/22/this-is-what-separation-of-church-and-state-really-means/

One thing I didn't know that I learned from this is that the Establishment Clause also prevented the disestablishment of official churches in the states. Apparently 6/13 of the original states had established churches at the time of constitutional ratification.


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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People would lose their #### over that today though.***


Sep 24, 2015, 1:59 PM



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Yes, things have markedly improved.***


Sep 24, 2015, 2:05 PM



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Catholicism in America is kind of interesting


Sep 24, 2015, 2:33 PM [ in reply to People would lose their #### over that today though.*** ]

Because the pope is an official head of state who has final authority over Roman Catholic doctrine, Roman Catholicism has faced a certain amount of (sometimes warranted, in my opinion) prejudice in Protestant or formerly Roman Catholic societies. The worry has been that people would have divided loyalty between two heads of state, since the Catholic church is literally universal.

While Catholicism was never banned in the US, it was generally mistrusted for the reason given above. In fact, Roman Catholicism was highly critical of liberal democracies up until the early to mid 20th century (not sure which encyclical addressed it or whether it had more to do with Vatican II), which of course contributed to prejudice against Catholics.

So we never had a Catholic president until Kennedy, and Kennedy felt the need in 1960 to give the famous speech in front of the Houston Ministerial Association in which he basically said that his religion didn't determine the decisions he would make. Unfortunately, the sentiments he expressed furthered the idea that the only legitimate way of separating church from state is to push religious concerns out of public life; or, basically to say that your religion should never influence your thoughts about political issues.

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fair enough


Sep 24, 2015, 2:06 PM [ in reply to Because that's not what separation of church and state means ]

along the lines of what aero posted, what would happen if the supreme head of Judaism or Islam tried to speak in the capitol.

do you reckon it would be looked at the same way?

while no edicts were issued while he was there, the talking heads are already doing their thing and there is a thread about the headlines on fox/cnn. If someone in congress uses what the pope said to further their agenda, does it blur the lines of the separation? (not trying to argue, just actually curious and politics and religion aren't my specialty)

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There isn't a "supreme head" of Islam or Judaism


Sep 24, 2015, 2:49 PM

This is another example of why you can't just talk about "religion" in general without knowing the specific structure and theology of a particular religion. The organization of Roman Catholicism is such that it has one authority on doctrine in order to avoid having multiple doctrinal traditions with nobody to decide which one is right. The pope is also a head of state at the Vatican City. There isn't anything comparable to that among any other religion with comparable numbers. The closest thing would be the head of state of Israel or an Islamic state, since their government is technically tied into their religion (although, again, this is true in a different way for Islam than it is for Judaism). I believe the Dalai Lama has offered the opening prayer in Congress before, but again, his status is different from all of the other leaders.

I would say there's nothing wrong with using something he pope says as part of whatever argument you're offering some policy or another. The problem would be if somebody claimed that our country had to do such and such on the authority of the pope, or if we were inviting him here to decide some policy issue for us. In my view (and, I think, in view of the best interpretation of the constitution), there's nothing wrong with any particular religion influencing the political debate, as long as it isn't looked at as an uncontestable authority.

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2


Sep 24, 2015, 2:54 PM

LONGDIDN'TREAD

LOOOOOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

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thanks for the help


Sep 24, 2015, 3:00 PM [ in reply to There isn't a "supreme head" of Islam or Judaism ]

this is why i asked for someone smarter than me to chime in. truly curious about it and didnt think that googling why is pope allowed in congress would get me very far.

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Essentially, you're asking ALL of us to post an answer.


Sep 24, 2015, 2:00 PM

And that just leads to another MEGA=THREAD.



Not good. Not good at all.

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Since I'm smarter than you, here's my answer


Sep 24, 2015, 3:38 PM

IDGAF

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Re: someone smarter than me


Sep 24, 2015, 2:51 PM

7

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The Vatican is a City-State. The Pope is a political leader


Sep 24, 2015, 3:19 PM

as well as a religious leader.

The Ayatollah's coming in next month. The WH just hasn't told Congress.

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...I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.


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