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Topic: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!
Replies: 14   Last Post: Dec 6, 2020, 10:09 PM by: slycat
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Replies: 14  

Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 5:19 PM
 

We replaced 4 very good; very experienced OL last season. I understand that. It's been all over TNET about the OL struggles. Well earned criticism of that group - no doubt! The play calling from Coach Elliott is most often the subject people point to. But, if you are of the X and O crowd you know something the "highlights only fans" don't know. You know "it all starts up front and you know you don't ask your personnel to do things they aren't good at"! You don't put them in bad position to fail. Now somebody might go, "that's why it's coaching"!
Don't think that's entirely the case here. I think OL is the hardest position in football to project to the next level. I think we have some good guys who work hard but who are not where they need to be physically. Maybe technically; but moving someone against their will as technical as you can be you still have to have the strength to do it. The off season lack of "Clemson style strength training hurt us more than the other top teams"! Why? Because our guys were not all ready made to contribute at the college level besides Jackson. The other teams in the top 4 had experience or they had a line of highly touted OL prospects. The layoff didn't impact them as bad i.m.o. For example, the ND line was the same one from 2018 game. Clemsons was brand new!

All that said: in our offense the QB has the ability to pass it on any play. Do any of you think that maybe on every play these guys are thinking, "don't get too far down field on this called run in case it's thrown"?
So to the novice they see a pass play. X and O people see RPO.

Do you think we would benefit from pure - no pass option built in - run plays?

And, I am not suggesting anything! We have the 10th ranked offense in the country that generates 504 yards per game. Despite that - there is a ton of criticism.
My angle is just starting a conversation about if more pulling guards, traps and the like would be beneficial? Not if we need to run this up to the coaches as I am not one that's "dooms day" complaining. I think we may have missed in the recruiting cycle more than anything; which in my opinion is not about the X and O's. You have to have the Jimmy's and Joe's to run the whole offense.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 5:34 PM
 

There is certainly a possibility of O-linemen getting too far downfield on an RPO, but I don't recall very many penalties on us because of that.

If you're saying that the fear of the potential penalty on an RPO because of the O-lineman getting ahead of the play and moving to the second level is causing a problem with our run results, it is certainly a possibility, but for them to get to the second level, they would have to first clear the D-lineman out of the path of the RB..... and this is what is not happening. They aren't getting into the position to move past the D-lineman. Often, this is because the box is loaded and they're looking at a jail-break to protect their gap.

We definitely could be better at run-blocking, but that weakness is exposed by our lack of ability to take the top off of the defense for most of the time. If we could be a bigger threat downfield, run-blocking would appear much better because of the reduced number of defenders in the box.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[1]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:08 PM
 


There is certainly a possibility of O-linemen getting too far downfield on an RPO, but I don't recall very many penalties on us because of that.

If you're saying that the fear of the potential penalty on an RPO because of the O-lineman getting ahead of the play and moving to the second level is causing a problem with our run results, it is certainly a possibility, but for them to get to the second level, they would have to first clear the D-lineman out of the path of the RB..... and this is what is not happening. They aren't getting into the position to move past the D-lineman. Often, this is because the box is loaded and they're looking at a jail-break to protect their gap.

We definitely could be better at run-blocking, but that weakness is exposed by our lack of ability to take the top off of the defense for most of the time. If we could be a bigger threat downfield, run-blocking would appear much better because of the reduced number of defenders in the box.




Agreed! Ladson, Ross and Ngata being out really hurt the ability to scare the defense! You have a Justin Ross type at the boundary and that safety will have to shade over! And shade over legit - because unless they have a 6'4 CB it's a mis match. Amari though very fast is only 5'10. Cornell doesn't have that elite speed to take the top off. What we have to do more than anything is get healthy at the WR spot.
EJ in my opinion "could be" that guy moving forward! Too soon for him perhaps; but necessity is the mother of (doesn't really apply but you understand) moving young players ahead of their learning curve.

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It's a talent and coaching issue

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 5:34 PM
 

I don't buy the idea of COVID affecting our weight program more than other schools. Doesn't matter if a player was a starter or reserve last year. Both were affected equally by COVID during the spring/summer. Plus, Jackson Carman was a starter last year and he's regressed. That's why I mention coaching as part of the problem.

From the spring until the season started, Dabo said his only concern with the O-line was depth. I think that may have been a smoke screen because he didn't want to call out the starters.

During 2019 when looking forward to this year, losing 4 starters made me very doubtful about the 2020 O-line.

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Re: It's a talent and coaching issue

[1]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:02 PM
 

Thanks! I kind of believe it's a miss on some OL talent we brought in. Again, the absolute hardest position to judge coming out of H.S. unless they are just beyond belief gifted from a strength/size/speed/bend stand point.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:21 PM
 

Lineman size is a huge deal and the weight room is probably more important of a factor for controlling the line. With all that said, lineman getting down the field too far should never be a problem on RPOs. They are designed as an open step then throw. Clemson ran more regular option last night with T-Law. Some people will run a bubble and tunnel on either side so a lateral throw won't make it matter if the linemen are downfield if the read progresses to that. But you can do any quickhitter out of RPO, but can only throw open someone(basically get a third level read on a biting safety and lob a 3 ball) deep.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!


Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 8:28 PM
 

This is more like tnet of old. This discussion rocks.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:28 PM
 

I think the oline has been decent. Nothing to brag about but not terrible. A lot of zone scheme runs. The problem has defenses have been loading the box to stop Travis. They have put extra men in the box. Our receiving core is hurt and the loss of tee is big. Teams have played man and dared Clemson to throw the ball. Clemson has won their fair share of those. They have struggled some too. Lucky for us Cornell has came on strong. Now if we can get Frank and Joe back healthy.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!


Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 8:37 PM
 

Why not more quick hitting slants to Galloway of D Allen. Also, maybe mix in some more shuttle passes to ETN. Or am I off

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!


Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 9:28 PM
 

He missed the quick read one time to the TE and threw the INT because he hesitated but it was because the ILB faded right to cover ETN, taking away what he probably wanted first. Watch his eyes on that replay.

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Agree with your comments.

[2]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:45 PM
 

I have been asking why we can't have a couple of dedicated run plays with specific OL blocking... traps, misdirection cutbacks. Just a couple of plays where the OL knows what's coming. Same with having a couple of dedicated drop-back passes with standard OL pass blocking schemes.

Not implying we need to totally change the offense, just something to put a little variety into it... and to give the OL a few plays where they know in advance what's happening.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: Agree with your comments.

[1]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 6:56 PM
 


I have been asking why we can't have a couple of dedicated run plays with specific OL blocking... traps, misdirection cutbacks. Just a couple of plays where the OL knows what's coming. Same with having a couple of dedicated drop-back passes with standard OL pass blocking schemes.

Not implying we need to totally change the offense, just something to put a little variety into it... and to give the OL a few plays where they know in advance what's happening.




Cheers! You sound like me in that; clearly being top 10 nationally we are doing something right. Discussions among fans(just meant for message boards).
Cool when you can just talk football. Albeit hypothetical football talk in the case of this thread!

Thanks, appreciate your comments!

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Re: Agree with your comments.


Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 9:33 PM
 

Amen. You should be able to run RPOs, and power. One of my favorite plays is a center trap. Center goes straight to ILB, tackle wraps inside to blast interior defensive lineman. It is a thing of beauty if the defense is in a 3-4 front. Some of the new fangled stuff forgets the power run.

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!

[1]
Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 8:27 PM
 

Now this is more like it. HillRock has the best posts and questions. Question for you all. Why did ETN only get 1 pass. Think it went for a yard. I know when Trevor threw to Galloways knees ob, he had a wide open ETN. Only had to flip it to him soft and he had tons of space.

Did anyone see EJ dressed out. I know he didn't play, I think I recall Ajou in for one or two plays but that was it. Same with Ladson. Did he even travel?

What happened to Ladson. Must be worse than we've heard. Listening to Dabo's presser, when they asked about FL, he didn't give his usual upbeat answers... He paused before saying something like "we'll see". If it's iffy, then imo we need to force the issue and have EJ in. We've got to have something ND at least has to pay attention too. Yes? No?

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Re: Scheme Question For the X and O Crowd!


Posted: Dec 6, 2020, 10:09 PM
 

If you are asking scheme questions, compare our offensive data to NFL offenses. Data is available for 2019. Look at % plays under center vs shotgun and stats surrounding each. Look at pass distribution. Very interesting when compared to our offense. We don't play in the NFL, but I find it interesting that NFL puts their all-star QBs under center a bunch and we do it pretty much in pre-game warmups only

Going downfield on RPO is not really much of a concern for OL. Most umpires don't call it if OL are blocking and not simply running downfield clueless and it doesn't impact the play. However I think that it would have to impact technique and aggressiveness. These types of plays are slower to hit the LOS and place a premium on the OL having to hold blocks. Think of the timing of a FB dive from a traditional "I" offense vs running out of the shotgun RPO read.

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