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All-TigerNet [10906]
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Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 11:30 AM
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In the past three years, Clemson is 1-13 in ACC games decided by 3 points or less. 2-17 in the past four years. No one else is even close to that. By comparison, VaTech is 8-1 in the past 3 years.
Is this just bad luck, or is there some bad coaching involved?
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CU Guru [1826]
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Hard to compare years but I don't feel like
Mar 4, 2019, 11:33 AM
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we have a "go to" guy to get their own shot this year. When Reed was out with foul trouble Saturday it didn't seem like anyone else could. He comes back in and scores 5 quick points. Those long scoring droughts really seemed to bite us each game without someone able to break it a all alone.
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Walk-On [149]
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Re: Unbelievable from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 11:41 AM
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There is a mindset associated with coaching these players "from the shoulders up." Of utmost importance when coaching the mental aspect of the game is FINISHING. People like Dabo have it, and people like Brad do not.The evidence is in the consistency of both coaches.
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All-In [44055]
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It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing"
Mar 4, 2019, 12:22 PM
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when you have the best players in your sport.
Funny how Dabo's teams weren't so mentally tough or great at finishing when we didn't have top 10 recruiting classes every year.
Remember the 2010 football season?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing"
Mar 4, 2019, 12:50 PM
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So Judge - are you saying that CBB cannot recruit worth a crap? Or is it just the players that are the problem? Not sure of your point here.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Hizhonor Keller can speak for himself, but I think he was
Mar 4, 2019, 1:01 PM
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just staying on the subject of the question. His point that certain coaching aspects of the game are better implemented by higher quaility players is a good one. At least some if not all of the explanation of the Packer stats could be the one he offered; those other teams were just better. We all know that good basketball teams can be played tough by lesser teams, but find a way to win in the end. One could say that is happening to us, and I think that was His Emminence's point.
To take it from there to a general critique of all things Brad is off the topic, I think.
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110%er [9736]
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All-In [44055]
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My thoughts as to our basketball issues have been
Mar 4, 2019, 1:33 PM
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clearly stated here, multiple times. I'm sorry if they don't make sense to you.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: He never really has a point.
Mar 4, 2019, 10:59 PM
[ in reply to He never really has a point. ] |
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Why don’t you give this up. They are not going to fire BB this year. Why keep going on it makes no sense
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All-In [44055]
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I think we need more talent.
Mar 4, 2019, 1:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing" ] |
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I feel that the problem is largely our lack of administrative support for basketball, and until that is resolved, it isn't really fair to say that a coach is a "bad recruiter" if he's always recruiting at a huge disadvantage.
I think Brownell is very good at player development as well as Xs and Os. But at some point, you need the horses against the Dukes and UNCs of the world.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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What about the Miamis, NCSUs and Louisvilles of the world?
Mar 4, 2019, 1:59 PM
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Look, I agree with everything you said. You can't compare Dabo's ability to close in games to Brad's ability to close in games, because in football we get the best talent. Had we gotten Zion and he stays healthy at Clemson, this season is a different story.
But we also have a senior-heavy team with largely the same talent that made the Sweet 16 last year. Losing a close one to UNC doesn't bother me, it actually exceeded my expectations. Miami and NCSU were bad though. Louisville is probably somewhere in the middle.
What more do we need from administrative support? We got the upgraded facilities, but honestly I have no idea how they compare to other schools' basketball facilities.
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110%er [9736]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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You can't compare the administrative support
Mar 4, 2019, 2:06 PM
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Dabo gets to the support Brad gets. Dabo is also an unfair comparison for any sport, he is a total exception as opposed to the rule. If your goal is to find another Dabo for basketball, good luck.
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110%er [9736]
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I didn’t bring up the Dabo comparison. I was responding to his Dabo comparison.***
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Mar 4, 2019, 4:23 PM
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110%er [8866]
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Re: I didn’t bring up the Dabo comparison. I was responding to his Dabo comparison.***
Mar 6, 2019, 4:01 AM
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It took Dabo more than two years also with his 115 players
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Legend [16263]
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Your relentless defense of Coach B is becoming stale.
Mar 4, 2019, 4:46 PM
[ in reply to It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing" ] |
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I know you're old school with Clemson basketball and loyal to the core. But he don't got it. He just don't. Other basketball fans see this, and we're growing tired of doubling down on losing bets one after the other. His roster and level of talent has steadily improved but the finishing style is still the same, whether it's a game, a stretch of games, non-conference, e t c.
2010? Some time ago you posted about financial support for the basketball program. What were Dabo's and Brad's salaries heading into their respective 2011 seasons? Their staff's? Following that 2010 season? As I recall they were fairly close in comparison. So what was the difference? What's happened since? Dabo got a $55 Million player facility. Brad got a $65 Million venue and practice space renovation.
I like Brad as a guy. Most do. But Dude don't got it and it would help the rest of us basketball fans if stodgy double-downers like yourself would let it go and look for more, and quit lecturing on why it's okay to continue to flail around in the waters of abject mediocrity.
Go Tigers.
Message was edited by: wildblulou®
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Legend [16027]
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Re: It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing"
Mar 6, 2019, 2:16 AM
[ in reply to It's easy to teach "mental toughness" and "finishing" ] |
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Great post Judge Keller! People don’t realize that Clemson’s BOT and the Administration finally became “All In” when we could not meet fan expectations under TB. I am not taking anything away from Dabo. He is very unique and a special HC who wisely used his resources. And I don’t think any other coach could achieve what Dabo has accomplished as the HC at Clemson. But also Clemson had to invest more money into the football program in order to help Dabo achieve more success. It allowed him to pay higher salaries enabling him to hire the best assistant coaches and retain them. As much as I love DF and his accomplishments at Clemson, I am not sure he could accomplish what Dabo has at Clemson.
Coach BB gets blamed for everything negative regarding the basketball program. If we would increase spending on Clemson Basketball IMO you would see more W’s.
For those of you that have never seen Wofford’s new basketball area , ride by especially at night. It really makes a statement about Wofford. LJ just does not impress me even with the new updates. IMO little things like the look of LJ are the start to getting top recruits attention. Wofford’s area makes a statement inside and outside. Clemson needs to build at new state of the Art Basketball facility the even more impressive than Wofford. Unfortunately i believe it is the flash and big lights that these new kids are impressed with. I think more so in basketball than in football.
Death Valley can be seen from a distance and is impressive from afar. It’s even more impressive and can be intimidating up close.
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CU Guru [1779]
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While this is true about Dabo and investing in
Mar 6, 2019, 4:47 AM
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the football program, there were key players that were recruited before the practice facility, and other upgrades. Guys like Spiller, Hopkins, Boyd, Watkins, etc.. came before that and played allot of the groundwork top where the program is today. I'm not saying the investment shouldn't be made in basketball but it can't be used as a blanket excuse either.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 11:42 AM
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Missed free throws and a hail mary 3 from NC State... not on coaching.
A good defensive possession vs Miami resulting in a loose ball and a thrown up 3... not on coaching.
Coming back from down 6 in the last :20 vs Louisville to come up one shot short... not on coaching.
I think there could be a little questioning the UNC ending but a loss on either side of calling a timeout or not would result in questioning the coach. I have no issue with letting your senior decide. If Mitchell decided poorly then it's not on coaching.
I don't remember specifics from other games or past seasons.
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Orange Blooded [2922]
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But there are other parts of***
Mar 4, 2019, 1:31 PM
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Orange Blooded [2922]
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But there are other parts of those games that...
Mar 4, 2019, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning... ] |
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Are on coaching. Should it had been that close in Miami to begin with? Louisville has struggled against the press and was mentally weak...maybe we should have pressed earlier? NC State was coming off a short turnaround and we could not put them away.
It’s not just about the last play.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: But there are other parts of those games that...
Mar 4, 2019, 2:08 PM
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Your argument can go the other way too.
All but one of our ACC wins in by double digits I believe.
Without good coaching decisions early in those games they could have been closer and gone either way late in the game.
If Louisville breaks our press because we aren't used to using it and they get more easy baskets, then maybe the game isn't close to start with.
Maybe we are worse than NC State and good coaching early in the game gave us a chance to win late at the free throw line and we didn't.
I don't know the right side of these arguments but it's easy to say what you are saying after the fact.
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Orange Blooded [2922]
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The games we have won by double digits are against the basement...
Mar 4, 2019, 2:58 PM
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of the conference. Wake, GT & Pitt (twice), BC are 6 of our wins. We should be winning those by double digits, especially at home. VT is our other conference win. (that was a good win) I am not a ‘fire the coach’ type of guy. I pull hard for these guys every game. But this year, thus far, has been a disappointment. They still have a chance to make the tourney. But with this team, they should have locked it down by now. We now are staring at 3 must win games in a row. The stats about close games tell a story. In regards to the games you mention, Loserville has basically collapsed down the stretch (because they can’t break the press...just like they couldn’t in the last 30 seconds against us) and NCSU has really not done that well in conference....they are riding the coattails of a good non-conference win over Auburn. I don’t think they are better than us. We just did not take the step necessary to capitalize on the momentum from last season. There’s still time....but I have not seen much that inspires confidence in us winning the next three in a row. But I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The games we have won by double digits are against the basement...
Mar 4, 2019, 3:06 PM
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Did you know that all of the teams you just said that we SHOULD beat by double figures have much better basketball history and tradition than us?
Did you know that we easily could have beat UNC who is currently pushing for a #1 seed in the tournament?
Did you know that if the two ridiculous and unlucky game winners don't go down, we are in great position to go to the tournament right now??
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Orange Blooded [2922]
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We're talking about this season....
Mar 4, 2019, 5:14 PM
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the teams that we beat by double digits are having worse years than we are. And even in recent history, we have been above BC, GT, Wake and Pitt the past few seasons. Tim Duncan, Stephon Marbury, John Salley and whatever other ghost from the past aren't going to show up anytime soon to change that. Right now Clemson has a better program than those 4 schools. Might not be the case a couple of years from now, but we have owned BC for a while, GT is in constant rebuilding mode, Wake is trying to figure out if its coach is the right guy or not and Pitt is completely rebuilding. Miami and Notre Dame are below us this season, but that is more of a temporary stay in the basement for those teams. So far we lost to one of them. Aside from VT, we've lost every game against a team with a winning record in conference play. They are all good teams. Buzzer beaters or not, the bottom line is that we lost all those games. And we also got whooped at home a couple of times too (FSU, UVA). But with a senior laden team, you find a way to win more than 1 of those, if you want to go back to the NCAA tournament (I assume that's the goal, right?) I'll take sneaking in by winning our last three, since it seems like the rest of the bubble is cooperating. And if we end up in the NIT, I'll watch this team until they're done. But this was not a season for moral victories and only beating basement dwellers. Let's hope they can salvage it this week.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 11:47 AM
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It's our fans fault.
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All-In [25014]
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specifically the students***
Mar 4, 2019, 12:12 PM
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110%er [6174]
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Re: specifically the students***
Mar 4, 2019, 12:16 PM
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But can you really blame it on the students if they were pulling for the visiting team and sporting their colors?
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110%er [9736]
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And maybe the students don’t show up because
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Mar 4, 2019, 1:08 PM
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they don’t think the facilities are good enough.
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Orange Blooded [3141]
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Oculus Spirit [78892]
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that probably explains why
Mar 4, 2019, 11:54 AM
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that when it is close in bball at the end, I expect us to lose
I have been conditioned to think this
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 12:09 PM
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Don’t have enough knowledge to say whether or not it was coaching. I guess one could make the point it was good coaching to get that close.
That being said, I would have to think the AD has some way of measuring the numbers. At first glance, it is eye opening that the numbers are skewed that drastically.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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Coaching wasn't the issue on Saturday...
Mar 4, 2019, 12:41 PM
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Great effort by the team but Clemson absolutely got jobbed by the officials especially on the last possession.
Had the roles been reversed and had it been Coby White driving to the basket to tie or win the game in the final seconds, the zebras give UNCheat that call EVERY TIME.
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110%er [6099]
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but KNOWING you are NEVER getting that call vs UNCheat
Mar 6, 2019, 7:25 AM
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shouldn’t you have a better plan?
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Team Captain [466]
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Some of it
Mar 4, 2019, 12:56 PM
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is just being unlucky. For example, last year we played Miami this was a close game throughput the teams traded blows throughout the game, then they fouled us a lot, but couldn’t get a lot of shots to go in. In a game that was really close we ended winning by 9, same goes with the Notre Dame game last year.
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All-Conference [441]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 1:28 PM
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Is the team still working with Synergy Performance? I saw articles mentioning that they were last year.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 2:03 PM
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Part of it is just unlucky and part of it is recruiting. I don't understand how anyone expects us to recruit in the top half of the ACC. We have no tradition, no history, average facilities, below average fan support, and below average funding.
Are you all seriously confused about why we aren't consistently in the top half of the ACC? I didn't realize that all you fair weathered basketball fans were this stupid.
Against NC State (on the road) we had our career leader in FT % miss 6 free throws. I would bet he has never done that in a game before. And then Beverly ( who i believe was 0-9 that game) hits a miracle 3 pointer. That shot was about a 20% shot at best
Against Miami, the guy hit a highly contested bank shot at the buzzer. That alone was a 10% shot most likely. The odds of both of those shots hitting are incredibly small.
Against UNC, we could have easily won and we were missing a starter and our best defender.
Brownell is a GREAT basketball coach. Just ask anybody associated w/ college basketball and they would tell you that he is a great X and O coach.
Recruiting i would say he has been average even with limited support. That does need to get better and it has since we renovated Little John.
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MVP [546]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 2:26 PM
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This is my opinion as a travel and high school coach.
- I tell my players all the time, “we can teach you the fundamentals, show you EXACTLY what the other team is going to do and how to combat it. But it’s up to you to execute.”
- a coach can LOSE the game, but can’t win the game. That’s on the players.
Meaning, if I put the wrong players in the game and call the wrong plays we lose. Conversely, I can put in the right guys and call the right plays but the PLAYERS have to execute to win.
In my opinion, today’s players want uptempo and fresh plays. That’s NOT what I see when watching the basketball team.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 4, 2019, 9:01 PM
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In my opinion if Brownell instituted an up tempo offense we would lose to the more talented teams by a much wider margin than we have so far. There's a reason he has us slowing things down. I think he overdoes it but what do I know? Recruiting is the key. We may never sign 3-4 top 100 recruits per class, multiple years in a row, but that's what it will take. Good luck to CBB.
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All-In [27366]
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Both
Mar 4, 2019, 2:21 PM
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plus cheatin' refs.
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110%er [6099]
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Mindset
Mar 6, 2019, 7:22 AM
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Believe you will lose, you probably will
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Orange Blooded [2418]
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Re: Unbelievable stat from Mark Packer this morning...
Mar 6, 2019, 4:29 PM
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I think in a lot of those games, we are coming back from a deficit and just run out of gas. Our approach to the last possession in games where we need a bucket does not usually go over so well either... just has a way of falling apart.
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Replies: 43
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