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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Abortion pole ...
Apr 26, 2023, 4:52 PM
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What say ye?
Which most closely reflects your opinion? [Results]
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The pregnant mother, and only the pregnant mother, has the total right to terminate her pregnancy at any point, for any reason. |
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Life begins at conception, and therefore all abortion is murder, and must be illegal. |
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It's impossible to know exactly when life begins, but it's at some point the fetus becomes a human life and deserves protection, and we should reach reasonable compromise and restrict abortion accordingly, with reasonable exceptions. |
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Other - feel free to explain. |
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Paw Master [17162]
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It’s whatever state legislatures decide.***
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Apr 26, 2023, 5:36 PM
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Valley Protector [1401]
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Re: It’s whatever state legislatures decide.***
Apr 27, 2023, 4:59 PM
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When there is a HEARTBEAT, It's a living being by any definition!!
FJB and his band of killers!
Exceptions for rape and incest for sure.
FJB and his killers.
Message was edited by: MiuraTiger®
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Playmaker [385]
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Re: It’s whatever state legislatures decide.***
Apr 30, 2023, 12:32 AM
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So, in the event of rape AND incest, its ok to kill a life?
So, in the event of rape OR incest, its ok to kill a life?
So, in the event of rape, its ok to kill a life?
Please tell us how we should live our lives Miurie.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: It’s whatever state legislatures decide.***
Apr 30, 2023, 6:23 AM
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I would not say in every case it’s ok to kill a life but there are cases where I think ending the life of the rapist is justified so, yes.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 5:48 PM
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A seed contains living matter. Once that seed is placed in soil, watered and fertilized it germinates. Eventually after germination the new seedling emerges from the ground and grows to become a mature plant. I have never heard a single person argue that the life of a tree begins at any point other than germination.
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Oculus Spirit [41984]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 7:30 PM
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Trees don’t get raped, tho
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
Apr 26, 2023, 7:36 PM
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Yeah ok.
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Varsity [104]
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Oculus Spirit [41984]
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So those people should be punished?
Apr 26, 2023, 8:10 PM
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And is it really 1%?
Pretty sure not all abortions are public record.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:56 PM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
Apr 27, 2023, 7:38 AM
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And less than 1% are third trimester abortions.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
Apr 27, 2023, 8:04 AM
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What percentage of the third trimester are elective ? In other words no medical issue for the mother or child? I don’t know that answer. Just asking.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
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Apr 27, 2023, 9:43 AM
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Virtually none - they are performed because of fetal abnormalities or because of threat to the life of the woman. They generally require hospitalization for more than one day and are expensive. They are largely unlawful. (43 states ban abortion after (thereabouts) 24 weeks, with only medical exceptions, when viability is presumed to begin.)
91% of abortions occur before thirteen weeks.
8% occur between thirteen and twenty weeks.
As I mentioned above, this is 99% of abortions performed a month before viability. Medical evidence is that fetal pain only begins at 29 to 30 weeks, though abortion opponents have pushed "fetal pain" abortion bans at 20-22 weeks.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
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Apr 27, 2023, 9:57 AM
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Thanks for the stats.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: So those people should be punished?
Apr 27, 2023, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: So those people should be punished? ] |
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That’s the number that is consistently reported. Could it be 2%? Maybe. Pretty sure it’s not 25% or even 10%. I’m just saying it’s an argument that’s always used to justify abortion. You’re saying don’t punish them yet you don’t seem to have the same concern for the other 98-99% of aborted births. As usual it comes down to what people think is a Iife. If you murder a pregnant woman, you will usually be charged with 2 murders. Double standard?
It is most certainly not a double-standard, because the woman was robbed of her choice to bring the fetus to term.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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We don't kill
Apr 27, 2023, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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the children of murderers, but we should kill the children of rapists?
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Orange Elite [5246]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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I'll take you seriously when you exhibit the same outrage at the IVF clinics as you do Planned Parenthood.
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Clemson Icon [25986]
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That seems valid. I am much closer to saying IVF
Apr 26, 2023, 7:53 PM
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should be illegal (unless all implanted) than I am to saying abortion-at-any-stage should be legal.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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You understand that take...
Apr 27, 2023, 8:39 AM
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Would basically prevent many, many couples from ever having a child?
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Clemson Icon [25986]
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You perhaps think that is a rhetorical question. It is not.
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Apr 27, 2023, 10:10 AM
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Lack of IVF would not prevent people from having children: the preventing condition exists on its own. The question is whether the fix does something we morally cant do. That is a valid discussion. A bad gotcha question is not.
"You understand that if you dont allow euthanizing terminal Aunt Clara, you're preventing Megan from going to college?" Getting what we think is our due is a low moral standard. But that seems to be ours now.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Explain the logic here please.
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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I think I get it, but explain it.
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Clemson Icon [25986]
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I am not answering for Birm. Just relating something I heard
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:39 PM
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from the guy who did the first IVF in the US. Wonderful person, compassionate, principled. He was asked once (I'm sure many times) how he dealt with the morality of the left over fertilized eggs. He gave a comprehensive answer but the gist was:
- 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, a remnant imperfection from the fall of mankind (in his moral/religious view).
- A woman attempting to have a child knows this could happen.
- IVF is simply the same result, some fertilized eggs not living, as a result of the desire to have children.
- God can handle both cases.
He didn't say this, but he seemed to be drawing the same distinction as ceasing life saving measures verses euthanasia. You do what you know to do, and the outcome is what it is, verses taking an active killing action. Knowing him like I do, I know he is sincere.
But as I said above, I'm not sure about that at all. Destroying the fertilized eggs is a problem for me. I'm not going to jump up and down about it, just like I wouldn't for allowing abortions up to a quite short period of time. But it does seem that moral consistency requires allowing both or neither. Honestly, might have to go with neither.
As someone said above, I think it is a state matter. It is a life issue, not a rights issue, imo.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Re: I am not answering for Birm. Just relating something I heard
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Apr 26, 2023, 10:05 PM
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I think I get the distinction you're making, but it's the right to life, if I'm following you.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Thanks Tulsa.
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Apr 26, 2023, 11:02 PM
[ in reply to I am not answering for Birm. Just relating something I heard ] |
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I haven’t really thought about that before to be honest. I’m not sure if it’s because I have kids now, but my opinion on this subject as a whole has flipped almost 180*. In college, I would say it’s no one’s business. Now I see it as murdering a child.
I would certainly support a law to stop the practice of multi-egg IVF or at least no more eggs than children desired.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Jesus Christ, you're on a roll
Apr 27, 2023, 8:38 AM
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I would certainly support a law to stop the practice of multi-egg IVF or at least no more eggs than children desired.
Do you even know how the IVF process works? They have to use multi-egg IVF to increase the chances of conception were are already dicey even with that process.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Sucks for them.
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Apr 27, 2023, 8:50 AM
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I’m on a roll of being consistent. I know it’s hard to imagine!
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Yeah, it does suck for them.
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Apr 27, 2023, 8:52 AM
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Especially when they have to deal with idiots whose parts below the waist work but not the ones above the neck.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Yeah, it does suck for them.
Apr 27, 2023, 9:05 AM
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Let's make sure I'm summarizing your beliefs
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Apr 27, 2023, 9:10 AM
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You think a child who has been raped should be required to carry the baby to term, but a couple who is trying desperately to have one due to fertility issues shouldn't have access to multiple-egg IVF and that it "sucks for them."
I took a peek over at the Religion board out of curiosity (I don't ever read it). I noticed you're over there spouting some stuff about Christianity. I'd recommend a little self-reflection, because a Christian you certainly are not if you believe the above.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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So as a Christian I have to support current IVF practices?
Apr 27, 2023, 9:26 AM
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Gonna have to splain this one.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Nope...
Apr 27, 2023, 10:01 AM
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You can have a disagreement with the concept. But when you have a flippant "sucks for them" attitude towards a couple struggling to have children and this is their only option, it tends to indicate you may suck as a person and a Christian. Feel free to clarify.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Don’t apply emotion and sass to my words!
Apr 27, 2023, 10:10 AM
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You’re now trying to start another personal attack about me being mean now… by saying I, as a Christian, shouldn’t be mean.
As you say… be better.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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You aren't being "mean"
Apr 27, 2023, 10:14 AM
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You're being absurdly obtuse and lacking empathy by demanding a child rape victim have the baby and dismissing a couple's painful struggle to have a child because you want what makes your worldview comfortable and legislated.
"#### anyone's else's life and what they're going through; I want things to be MY way even though it doesn't affect me."
It's childish.
Now cue your next absurd hyperbole like "der herp does armed robbery not affect me der herp?"
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: You aren't being "mean"
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Apr 27, 2023, 10:45 AM
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I believe it’s far less obtuse to force an unwanted pregnancy than it is to murder innocent children.
That is obviously an extreme situation and I think that’s the least harmful outcome.
It’s either a human or it’s not. To me, the only way you can justify your opinion is to say it’s not… that’s at least logically consistent.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: You aren't being "mean"
Apr 27, 2023, 10:52 AM
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And I think it is phenomenally cruel to demand another child have her life ruined due to circumstances she couldn't control, a violent crime committed against her. But I guess we've established that.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: You aren't being "mean"
Apr 27, 2023, 11:14 AM
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Forced birth is more cruel than murder?
This will continue to get to be the point…where does life begin? where is it murder and where is it not?
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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This goes directly to my whole point, and my position.
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Apr 27, 2023, 11:31 AM
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We all have thoughts and ideas, some extremely well reasoned, some not, regarding when life begins. The fact is, we can't know, or at the very least, we will likely never come to broad agreement that approaches consensus. That's why I think that any "solution", or laws regarding abortion must start there, with that full acknowledgement, so that we can reach some middle ground, knowing it won't satisfy everybody. It's the best we can do, and the right thing to do from a legal, legislative standpoint, and we can't constantly be demonizing people who have opposing views, and angrily screaming in their faces or blowing #### up.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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I appreciate the thoughtfulness here and
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Apr 27, 2023, 2:55 PM
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Getting to the crux of the matter.
The only place I personally disagree with you is that we can’t know where life begins. As such, everything after is a bit off.
BUT just to placate the idea for sake of argument, let’s assume you, in fact, could not know when life begins. First, what side of the argument would you lean: more towards saving life or more towards the wishes of a parent? We know because of premature births- babies CAN be successfully delivered in the second trimester. So let’s start there. Is it a life when it can sustain life outside of the womb? To me it’s impossible to say it’s not a life. No?
Or are we just going to throw it all up in the air and say it’s whatever is most convenient for the mothers situation at the moment? If that’s the case why stop that rule at birth? At any point when a child is dependent upon the parents for survival, should the parents have the right to kill the child? Crazy question based on current societal values, but we have to draw a line somewhere.
If a pregnant woman is murdered- when is it a double homicide and when is it a single murder? If you say it depends on the wishes of the parents and not the fact that’s it’s a life, then your squarely placing children into a property category instead of human in a legal sense. Is that what’s best?
I truly believe that if you have the goal of becoming 100% consistent with your stance on this issue, the only place to logically draw a line is at conception. I haven’t seen any arguments here yet for another logical place for a line, but I think it’s an interesting topic.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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All great points.
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Apr 27, 2023, 4:51 PM
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I won't even attempt to answer the question of exactly where and when a human life begins, and as much as I appreciate and respect your answer (I don't necessarily disagree), and as satisfied as you are with it, the debate is not settled by any means, no matter what you or I think. That's the problem. The question then becomes, how do we proceed going forward? Any laws or legal restrictions regarding abortion will, in fact, inolve compromise. My point is, accepting that is the starting point.
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Associate AD [831]
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seeds and trees!
Apr 27, 2023, 9:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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A seed contains living matter. Once that seed is placed in soil, watered and fertilized it germinates. Eventually after germination the new seedling emerges from the ground and grows to become a mature plant. I have never heard a single person argue that the life of a tree begins at any point other than germination.
Ah, but nobody says it is a "tree" at germination!
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Athletic Dir [1100]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
Apr 28, 2023, 12:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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Germination is analogous to birth, not fertilization or conception.
Putting the seed in the ground is analogous to conception.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 5:57 PM
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I'm gonna choose "Other" because I'm a dude and I don't have good answers to this, but I'm closer to your third choice. How I THINK I would play it like this:
-No abortions in the third trimester if it's just to do away with pregnancy. EDIT: I'd entertain talks in the 2nd trimester. Maybe.
-Allow any abortion at any time if the mother's life is at risk.
-Father should have some kind of legal say if they're married. Not sure how to structure this, but a woman shouldn't be able to abort a married couple's pregnancy without the father's consent.
-Exceptions for rape or incest at any time.
-Preventive drugs taken right after intercourse are legal and available.
-Exceptions of some sort children having children. I'd probably mark this at 16 but that's maybe even too low.
But I still come away feeling icky about any law against it. I don't like the idea of aborting just because you don't want the kid. But when the government outlaws stuff, well, you know how that goes...
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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All-TigerNet [5876]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 6:20 PM
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Agree with you except for the 2nd trimester…12 weeks is enough time to make a decision imo
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All-Time Great [88634]
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Can't believe I'm giving cashmoney a point.
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Apr 26, 2023, 7:44 PM
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I think my bar is around 16 weeks. First trimester screening is between 11 & 13 weeks where you can get results of genetic risk factors such as Down syndrome or heart defects, I think giving some time for the couple to think on those results and make what has to be one of the hardest decisions of their lives.
The moving line of viability has always been my hard line unless if baby or mother are in danger, which thanks to incredible medical technology is at 24 weeks.
But like Cata, ultimately, I think the decision is on the mother and her doctor.
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Clemson Icon [25986]
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Good points. A few days ago I saw a young woman with a
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:08 PM
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stroller out in the neighborhood. I stopped, said hello to the one year old. She said, "This is our miracle guy. Was born 13 ounces." Not one pound and 13 ounces. 13 ounces. I couldn't imagine how small that would be. "How far along", I asked. "20 weeks." I understand very few like that would make it, and I'm not making any arguments here about where any lines are or anything like that. All I'm saying is that looking at that healthy one year old, it was tangibly clear that regardless of whether he made it or not, he did not become a human in the short travel down the birth canal. There he was, plain as day.
So, yes, not easy questions. Seeing Birm's post above about IVF, I had to see he had a point. Heck, maybe I'd just make it all illegal. Can't kill any of them. The necessary adjustments we would have to make to reduce unwed pregnancies (which are out of control), and provide support for mothers who would go full term for adoption, would provide many relational and cultural benefits, I would think.
But none of that was my point. Was just an amazing thing to see.
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Oculus Spirit [43144]
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 6:37 PM
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I don't play along because a poll of what is (effectively) nothing but men about women's reproductive rights is silly. (Probably mostly conservative men, at that.)
We see (respectfully, Keewe) that it isn't about state's rights to the anti-abortion crowd, otherwise we wouldn't have a judge trying to remove access to the abortion pill.
I'd vote leave it to the woman exclusively knowing that 3rd trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, almost exclusively performed to save the life of the mother. But the anti-abortion crowd always wants to make it sound like it is ALL about 3rd trimester abortions, when it certainly is not. 3rd tri abortions are a distraction, not a genuine issue.
Fetuses aren't babies and shouldn't be given more rights than women.
How many who oppose abortion also oppose sex ed in schools and free contraceptives via ACA?
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 6:41 PM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 7:54 PM
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I don't think that what conservative evangelical men says is "convenience" is the slightest bit legitimate. The fact that you so casually refer to this major decision made by a woman as "convenience" says how little you respect the ability of women to make decisions for themselves or how little you respect the priorities that women set for themselves.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:02 PM
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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He didn't insult you. He said your choice of words was poor
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:54 AM
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And they were.
For a guy who called someone's wife ugly on here, you shouldn't be lecturing people on "unnecessary insults".
"Convenience" is a bad way to put it.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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The “major decision made by women” should happen at conception! You can’t draw any other logical line to say this isn’t murder.
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Orange Blooded [2058]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
Apr 27, 2023, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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Here's the problem, you want to force these people to have the kids but then want no part of legislation that helps the kid after it's born. Who is this helping? It seems like it's just self-serving to make yourself feel better.
The GOP only seems concerned about the kid in the womb. Not before (providing contraception) or after it's born. You can scream personal responsibility all you want, but some people literally don't have the means to take care of a kid, nor were they raised in an environment where safe sex was taught.
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Top TigerNet [32938]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 6:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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We should wait until they're 18, when a better decision can be made.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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I’ll trudge past the false generalities…
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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If this is exclusively a woman’s issue and men shouldn’t have a say- Would you say that only citizens that pay taxes should be exclusively able to vote on government spending?
“Fetuses aren’t babies and shouldn’t be given more rights than women”
-Where is anyone legally killing the women?
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I’ll trudge past the false generalities…***
Apr 27, 2023, 7:40 AM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I’ll trudge past the false generalities…
Apr 27, 2023, 7:40 AM
[ in reply to I’ll trudge past the false generalities… ] |
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“Fetuses aren’t babies and shouldn’t be given more rights than women”
-Where is anyone legally killing the women?
Your good with forced birth, though.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: I’ll trudge past the false generalities…
Apr 27, 2023, 7:53 AM
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There are certainly situations that are unpleasant, but yes.
The only situation I support is if the mother would die. In those situations they usually still try to keep the baby alive. That’s not murder in my opinion.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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That's the only situation?
Apr 27, 2023, 7:57 AM
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You would support forcing a 14-year-old who was raped to have the child? How about a 14-year-old raped by her uncle?
"Sorry, kid, I know your life has been ruined and making you have this baby will make it even worse. I know it's unpleasant, but that's the way it is."
This irrational inability to compromise on abortion is what is costing hardline Republicans right now.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: That's the only situation?
Apr 27, 2023, 8:06 AM
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That’s correct. There’s no logical line of delineation other than conception. Horrible situation, but if it meant all the rest of the children were saved then it’s for the greatest good.
Where’s your compromise again. I must have missed it.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
3
Apr 27, 2023, 8:15 AM
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Inhumane, ignorant, callous. A definite lack of empathy because you've likely never been in that situation (you #### well would sing a different tune if that were your daughter and you know it).
Where’s your compromise again. I must have missed it.
Go read my original reply to the OP. You people taking the hardline stance that all pregnancies must be carried to term is why most of America is rejecting you and why the GOP will likely flub up the next election.
Under no circumstance should a child who has been raped be forced to carry the child. None. No, there is no debate.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 8:46 AM
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I understand your position here and don’t disagree that it may seem inhumane and callous, but it’s consistent and the answer isn’t murder. I can live with that.
Your OP response is basically a cop out. It’s inconclusive and inconsistent. It’s more questions than answers. It seems like you certainly understand the difficulties in the subject, but haven’t found a happy medium you’re comfortable with… I get it, because there isn’t a happy medium and it’s uncomfortable.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 8:51 AM
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My response actually applied critical thought and realized that this is a complicated matter that has be examined on a case by case basis. The woman who just wants to ##### around and abort every baby that's inconvenient can't have the same measures applied as the 14-year-old girl who was raped. You take a ham-handed, devoid of thought "It's all murder!" approach.
That's just the America we need. Some dude who didn't have to face these hardships (and his kids didn't, either) demanding some poor child carry a rapist's child to term or go to prison for murder because it fits his "comfortable" view of the world.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 8:59 AM
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Ok. What’s wrong with the # # # # around girl aborting out of inconvenience? Is that wrong and why?
What about parents who receives a test at the OB that says their child has a 50% chance of having a deficit of some kind? Is that an inconvenience or is that humane?
And we’re also assuming you’re ok with taking a life if the situation is bad enough.
What constitutes “risk of a mothers life” where you’re good with taking the babies life with trying to keep it alive?
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 9:06 AM
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Ok. What’s wrong with the # # # # around girl aborting out of inconvenience? Is that wrong and why?
I do think it's wrong, and I think we both know why.
What about parents who receives a test at the OB that says their child has a 50% chance of having a deficit of some kind? Is that an inconvenience or is that humane?
If I were in that situation, I wouldn't abort.
And we’re also assuming you’re ok with taking a life if the situation is bad enough.
Clarify. Are you meaning in cases of abortion or any case?
What constitutes “risk of a mothers life” where you’re good with taking the babies life with trying to keep it alive?
I can give an example from a couple I know, and they were very staunch anti-abortion until this happened to them. They were told in the third trimester that the mother would have a slim chance of survival without an abortion (I do not know the specifics of the condition as we aren't super close), AND the child, even if they could save the kid, would have a completely awful life that probably wouldn't last long.
So, slim chance of mother's survival along with slim chance of child's survival with guaranteed severe disabilities. They made the choice to abort.
You would have as well.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 9:21 AM
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Do you believe the fetus is ever human? If so- are you at peace with taking those lives?
Are you ok with it being legal to abort a fetus with a 50% chance of a deficit? Is that an ok reason to abort?
You clearly don’t love the idea of abortion. But you have determined for the moment, some situations are worth killing a child over. I have simply come to a different conclusion. Just trying to figure out where the lines are
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 10:04 AM
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I think I already answered those questions in my original reply.
Exceptions have to be made--there's no one size fits all. I'm also weary of the government laying down strict and harsh laws against it without exceptions. All that's going to result in is an uptick in illegal abortions that put more lives at risk. And child rape victims in prison.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Well, there's a lot of words to describe that position
Apr 27, 2023, 10:11 AM
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You didn’t.
Where exactly does life begin?
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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I don't know.
Apr 27, 2023, 10:16 AM
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And neither side can give me a good argument either way. That's why I wrestle with this issue and know there's a lot of nuance and gray area.
I know when YOU think it begins, but that doesn't mean it's right. For example, you want IVF multi-eggs taken off the table because you think it starts right there. That's not a realistic worldview when we apply a couple fighting to have a child through medical means.
But I also don't buy into the other side's opinion that a fetus is always just a fetus.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Well isn’t that convenient
Apr 27, 2023, 10:40 AM
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You don’t know, it’s hard, but also I’m wrong.
There has to be a line somewhere… you get uncomfortable with 3rd trimester. What’s the delineation between 2nd and 3rd trimester that makes you uncomfortable?
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Gawd dang, the reading comprehension on this board
Apr 27, 2023, 10:53 AM
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I said it didn't mean you were right. That isn't the same as saying you're wrong.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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What’s the delineation
Apr 27, 2023, 11:04 AM
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Between 2nd and 3rd trimesters that makes you uncomfortable?
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: I’ll trudge past the false generalities…
Apr 27, 2023, 7:55 AM
[ in reply to I’ll trudge past the false generalities… ] |
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Would you say that only citizens that pay taxes should be exclusively able to vote on government spending?
Well, every citizen who votes already pays taxes.
Yes, they do.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: I’ll trudge past the false generalities…
Apr 27, 2023, 8:01 AM
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Today I teach elwyn07 what a sales tax is.***
Apr 27, 2023, 8:16 AM
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Maybe tomorrow we can do welfare!***
Apr 27, 2023, 8:27 AM
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Also sales taxes are just state.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Sooo...
Apr 27, 2023, 8:34 AM
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Also sales taxes are just state.
All voters are paying taxes.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: Sooo...
Apr 27, 2023, 8:47 AM
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And then reimbursed….
WITH OTHER PEOPLES TAX DOLLARS!!
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Game Changer [2045]
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I don’t think a fetus has more rights than any woman
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Apr 26, 2023, 10:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: Abortion pole ... ] |
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What fetus can choose to end a woman’s life?
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Oculus Spirit [41984]
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Other …. Since the majority of us here are dudes
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Apr 26, 2023, 7:30 PM
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If you don’t have female anatomy, you should ST#U
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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If you believe that a fetus at no point is a human being
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:23 PM
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with the same right to life as every other innocent human being, but instead has zero rights, then that makes sense. And even though I disagree with that view, you have every right to it, and I can't criticize you for it. However, if, like many dudes, you believe that the unborn fetus at some point becomes a human being that has the right to life, and deserves all of the protections that entails, then nobody has the right to kill it, regardless of their anatomy, and dudes have every right to an opinion on the matter.
That is a debate that won't be settled here, or anywhere else. That's why we have to figure out a reasonable way forward, and accept that it won't make everybody happy.
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Oculus Spirit [41984]
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Then why’d you make a ####### poll about it?
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:29 PM
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Lol
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Ease up dude.
Apr 26, 2023, 8:31 PM
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Everything is going to be okay.
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Oculus Spirit [41984]
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I said lol
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:32 PM
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Mr abortion.
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Game Changer [2045]
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What if the person in the womb has female anatomy?
Apr 26, 2023, 11:09 PM
[ in reply to Other …. Since the majority of us here are dudes ] |
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We should be able to ask her, right?
What about the trans women? Should they get a say so? According to you the answer is no since they do not have female genitalia.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: What if the person in the womb has female anatomy?
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:43 AM
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We should be able to ask her, right?
What about the trans women? Should they get a say so? According to you the answer is no since they do not have female genitalia.
This is why it is nearly impossible to discuss this with the anti-abortion folk.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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It’s impossible because your views are illogical.***
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:55 AM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: It’s impossible because your views are illogical.***
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Apr 27, 2023, 9:51 AM
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Read what I replied to and tell me that it was remotely serious.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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I don't like the idea that men can't weigh in on this
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:58 AM
[ in reply to Other …. Since the majority of us here are dudes ] |
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That being said, it's TOO many men and not enough women having a real say in this on the legal playing field.
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Legend [6817]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
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Apr 26, 2023, 8:12 PM
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The responses seem more moderate than many posts here (ahem, including mine (sometimes))
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Game Changer [2045]
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If only the people who believe in abortion
Apr 26, 2023, 10:53 PM
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would have been aborted, there would be no one who would believe abortion is good.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: If only the people who believe in abortion
Apr 27, 2023, 6:56 AM
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To them their life is the only life that matters.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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This is a phenomenally stupid statement.
Apr 27, 2023, 8:04 AM
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No, that's not the case. And nobody "believes in abortion." Those of you who think this is a black and white issue are the most ignorant about the topic.
Do better.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Abortion is the sacrement of the left.
Apr 27, 2023, 10:08 AM
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My mother, who was as politically conservative as it gets, but who managed the office for an OB/GYN practice, always said "if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
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All-Time Great [88634]
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Re: I love that you don't see the irony in your statement.***
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Apr 27, 2023, 8:35 AM
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"I want little girls I've never met who have been raped to carry a child to term that I will never know, and people who support abortion only care about their own lives!"
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I love that you don't see the irony in your statement.***
Apr 27, 2023, 9:53 AM
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Seriously. We demonstrably care about the women. A lot of the anti-abortion crowd stops caring post-birth.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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A person is completely void of a moral compass
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Apr 27, 2023, 10:20 AM
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If he wants our government to force a poor child he's never met--and never will meet--to carry a rapist's child to term under penalty of imprisonment if she doesn't. That person belongs in a third world dictatorship.
Again, there isn't a single one of you who would advocate that for your own daughter. Not a single one.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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A person is completely void of a moral compass
Apr 27, 2023, 11:24 AM
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if he advocates allowing the murder of the unborn.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Okay...
Apr 27, 2023, 11:43 AM
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So let's do away with all abortions.
Are you prepared to have more money spent to care for and support those extra children? To make major changes in our government to fund this? To make sure their lives are worth living?
That's going to be a hefty price tag, but I can entertain the idea if all of you staunchly against any abortion are in favor of it.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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Why you gonna
Apr 27, 2023, 3:12 PM
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change the subject?
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
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Re: Why you gonna
Apr 27, 2023, 5:00 PM
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I think he's making sure your moral compass is properly calibrated.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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I'm not
Apr 28, 2023, 8:28 AM
[ in reply to Why you gonna ] |
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If you want all unwanted pregnancies to be carried to term, then we need to discuss the impact it's going to have on our society and economy, and those who want this to happen need to have answers on how to alleviate the problem.
And, you know, give a #### about the kids AFTER they're born.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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You seem to assume
Apr 28, 2023, 9:58 AM
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a gubmint solution.
Isn't that a leftist approach?
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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Should there be? What should be the solution?
Apr 28, 2023, 11:37 AM
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You're demanding all these unwanted children, many who will be born into terrible conditions, be had. What's your attitude about them after they're born? #### em?
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Orange Immortal [64743]
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Meh. I’ve a #####. I’ll leave this debate to those with wombs.***
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Apr 27, 2023, 7:36 AM
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Maybe we should let all murderers decide what the punishment
1
Apr 27, 2023, 7:59 AM
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For murder should look like.
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All-Time Great [90469]
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Kinda early in the morning for that much hyperbole***
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Apr 27, 2023, 8:48 AM
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Haha
Apr 27, 2023, 9:03 AM
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Maybe I should identify as a woman while I share my thoughts on the subject!
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All-Time Great [90469]
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Maybe you should.
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Apr 27, 2023, 10:50 AM
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Maybe you'd have a reversal of thoughts.
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
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A difficult moral issue with an easy legal solution
Apr 27, 2023, 10:15 AM
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There is no one more invested in the life of a developing human than the mother. As a legal matter, let the mother decide. The government does not know better than she does.
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Tiger Titan [48664]
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I used to not 100 percent agree with that...
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Apr 27, 2023, 10:17 AM
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But after reading some of the knuckledragging, ham-handed opinions in this thread, maybe that is the only answer.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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If, as a society, we can get consensus that the fetus is
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Apr 27, 2023, 11:03 AM
[ in reply to A difficult moral issue with an easy legal solution ] |
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at no point a human life, then that makes perfect sense; its the mother's choice, no question. If, however, a fetus, before birth, becomes a human life at some point, then the mother has no right to end it once that happens (with a few possible exceptions), in which case it's not a women's rights issue at all, and is incorrectly and falsely positioned as such for political advantage.
The fact that we can't possibly know, much less agree on when life begins, means that any "solution" or law which favors one position over the other fails to consider that factual reality, and instead, pushes forward as if it doesn't matter in favor of an agenda that ignores that fact. Since we can't possibly know, I think it's important to start there, and find workable compromise that acknowledges that. In my eyes, it's the only fair and reasonable sloution, but it requires everyone to stop pretending that they know, put down their guns and let go of their anger and egos, and work together.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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That was an extremely (too) wordy reply ....simplified here:
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Apr 27, 2023, 11:14 AM
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The government should, and most definitely does have a perfectly legit say in it IF the abortion is the termination of an innocent, defenseless human life. As long as that can't be ruled out, then leaving it entirely up to the mother, and positioning abortion as a women's rights or government over reach issue is wrong and misleading.
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
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Re: That was an extremely (too) wordy reply ....simplified here:
Apr 27, 2023, 11:35 AM
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Thanks for your longer response as well as this one.
I don't think that there's any question about whether an unborn human is a human. That's just a definitional issue and, strictly speaking, all humans are humans, whether or not they've been born. Fetuses are all humans, as are zygotes. Gametes are half-human.
When I say that it's a difficult moral issue with a simply legal solution, I'm saying that the hard problem is whether a fetus has "intrinsic moral value" or "natural moral rights" or whatever other moral concept we might consider. The simple legal solution I'm proposing is to say that pregnancy is a unique situation where the government is not going to get involved as a legal matter. There are all kinds of situations where the government doesn't forbid the destroying of human life, even an innocent life (war being the obvious example here, though there are others such as the destruction of fetuses used for IVF), and I'm proposing that abortion should be one of them.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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When I say "human being", I am assuming/implying
Apr 27, 2023, 12:05 PM
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intrisic moral value, and am simply argiung that the mother should not be given full, singular authority to terminate that innocent human life for any reason she chooses, regardless of other possible exceptions to the rule of protecting human life, like war, IVF, etc.
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Ultimate Tiger [36208]
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Re: When I say "human being", I am assuming/implying
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Apr 27, 2023, 12:08 PM
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Right. I think that's our difference: who should be the ultimate decisionmaker. I used to believe the answer was the government, but I recently changed my mind.
My proposed legal solution could end up with morally wrong decisions made by mothers, depending on what the morally right answer is. But any proposed legal solution will have potentially morally wrong consequences that are similarly dependent on one's moral theory.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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I thought the decision had already been made and it was
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Apr 27, 2023, 12:47 PM
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already established that a human being had a right to life, and that no other individual had the right to deny it, or take it away. From that perspective, the mother does not get to make that decision, and one of the main purposes of the government is to protect that right. So, the government is not wrongly intervening in that case, or making a decision on whether or not a life can or can't be taken; that decision has already been made. Seems to me the only question or debate is whether or not a life is being terminated.
Totally innocent lives are certainly lost in war. Even though much of that is probably unavoidable, I think reasonable efforts are made by our government to limit that as much as possible. The exception is based on the need to properly and effectively maintain the right to sovereignty, safety, and freedom in both the long and short run. In short, its self-defense. I don't think that exception applies in order to avoid personal hardships that may or may not prevail.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
Apr 27, 2023, 1:27 PM
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Equating fetuses to functional "post-birth" adults is, at best, disingenuous.
Unless you are claiming that the Founding Fathers had fetuses in mind.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
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Apr 27, 2023, 2:21 PM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
Apr 27, 2023, 2:46 PM
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I think the idea of "false equivalence" escapes you.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
Apr 27, 2023, 3:39 PM
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
Apr 27, 2023, 3:44 PM
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"totally innocent lives" is just a way to exaggerate what a fetus (especially a first trimester one - with no sentient capacity, sense of pain, or ability to survive on its own) is. It is an attempt to trigger people into equating it with a baby in a crib, when it is not nearly any such thing.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
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Apr 27, 2023, 3:48 PM
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
Apr 27, 2023, 5:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was ] |
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On most levels, equating a 1-yr old to functional adults is absurd and disengenuous. Yet, I think we would all agree that both have an equal right to life, and deserve to have that right protected. That's the issue here, and while I doubt the founders considered abortion when drafting our founding documents, I'm pretty sure they believed human life deserving legal protection was not restricted to functional adults, and I think most Americans would agree with that today.
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Paw Warrior [4984]
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Re: I thought the decision had already been made and it was
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Apr 27, 2023, 6:03 PM
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I’m sure the founders never thought about abortion. I would think they wouldn’t have dreamed our culture to deteriorate to the level that we slaughter millions of innocent lives and call it women’s health care.
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Varsity [104]
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Reproductive health
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Apr 27, 2023, 6:15 PM
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Hall of Famer [8131]
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Orange Immortal [65180]
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Abortion pole...
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Apr 27, 2023, 12:20 PM
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Isn't that how stubborn_tiger® got that scar on his forehead?
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Associate AD [831]
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Meanwhile in South Carolina...
Apr 27, 2023, 3:47 PM
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Smiling Tiger® I'm assuming you would be fine with this passing, despite earlier comments about reasonable compromise?
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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???????????????
Apr 27, 2023, 4:12 PM
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What on earth makes you think that?
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Meanwhile in South Carolina...
Apr 27, 2023, 4:22 PM
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I hear Republicans say that they want reasonable restrictions, but then when this stuff happens, they don't generally express any concern.
I mean, with the exception of Keewe, all of the Republicans who want it left to the States have not spoken out about the Texas judge's ruling (since halted) about the abortion drug, which would impact every state.
If you don't support this (now likely) move, will it impact for whom you vote? Or will it be more of a "I'll shrug it off and keep voting Republican" kind of thing?
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Re: Meanwhile in South Carolina...
Apr 31, 2012, 6:38 PM
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I am in no way obligated to or affiliated with any political party. I don't agree with any party or politician on everything. After considering the issues that are most important to me, I vote for the candidates that most closely reflect my views on those issues. Based on that, I have overwhelmingly voted Republican in my lifetime.
I disagree with these Republicans on this issue. If I agree with most of their other positions as opposed to those of their Democrat opponents, then this won't be enough to cause me to not vote for them, and certainly not enough to make me vote Dem in any case I can think of.
I'll keep voting for the candidates that most closely align with my views, even if they don't align perfectly, or sometimes at all, on every issue.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Meanwhile in South Carolina...
Apr 27, 2023, 7:46 PM
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I am in no way obligated to or affiliated with any political party. I don't agree with any party or politician on everything. After considering the issues that are most important to me, I vote for the candidates that most closely reflect my views on those issues. Based on that, I have overwhelmingly voted Republican in my lifetime.
I disagree with these Republicans on this issue. If I agree with most of their other positions as opposed to those of their Democrat opponents, then this won't be enough to cause me to not vote for them, and certainly not enough to make me vote Dem in any case I can think of.
I'll keep voting for the candidates that most closely align with my views, even if they don't align perfectly, or sometimes at all, on every issue.
So this really isn't going to move your needle. Our sisters and daughters will lose agency over their own bodies but you have higher priorities. I got it.
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Orange Immortal [65567]
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Yep - you've got it.
Apr 27, 2023, 8:13 PM
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They are doing something I strongly disagree with, but this won't cause me to vote for other candidates instead that I disagree with just as strongly on an array of other important issues.
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Associate AD [831]
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Re: Yep - you've got it.
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Apr 28, 2023, 8:55 AM
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I'm kind of shocked S.C. did the right thing.
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All-In [34487]
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I actually would prefer that
Apr 27, 2023, 4:55 PM
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all babies were murdered. They're loud. Ugly. Creepy. And annoying.
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Orange Immortal [65180]
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Loud, Ugly, Creepy, and Annoying???
Apr 28, 2023, 11:22 AM
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You're not very self-aware, are you?
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Athletic Dir [1100]
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Re: Abortion pole ...
Apr 28, 2023, 12:28 AM
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Legal until ensoulment.
That’s the old rule. Debate on how much movement corresponds to quickening.
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