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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
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Jun 6, 2025, 9:43 AM
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about Jesus? How do they get into heaven?
Does God make exceptions for those people, and base their salvation on other factors??
Does God somehow speak to their hearts and reveal the message to them, giving them a chance at salvation?
Are those people just SOL?
Just wondering how that works.
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Oculus Spirit [42351]
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They go to hell and burn for eternity, obviously.
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Jun 6, 2025, 9:46 AM
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God doesn’t make mistakes. Don’t be silly.
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Orange Elite [5580]
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Sucks for Moses***
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Jun 6, 2025, 5:00 PM
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Sucks for Moses***
Jun 9, 2025, 2:01 PM
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Moses had a redemptive covenant with God.
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110%er [3673]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
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Jun 6, 2025, 12:01 PM
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If god chooses you he will get to you.
- Reynolds
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
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Jun 6, 2025, 8:35 PM
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That's right.
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CU Medallion [20304]
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Just one question
Jun 6, 2025, 4:51 PM
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Is it God's fault there are people who have not heard of salvation in Jesus - Alone?
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Just one question
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Jun 8, 2025, 10:44 AM
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So whose fault would it be for all humans who predate even Judaism?
You seem to be implying it would be the humans fault for not knowing something they couldn't be aware of.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Just one question
Jun 8, 2025, 10:53 AM
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There has always been a covenant of redemption. God cut the first redemptive covenant with Adam.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Just one question
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Jun 8, 2025, 11:02 AM
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This story didn't come around until a few thousand years ago, humans predate that.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Just one question
Jun 9, 2025, 10:08 AM
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God revealed the account to Moses. God always had a redemptive covenant in place.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Just one question
Jun 9, 2025, 12:23 PM
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The moses story is only a few thousand years old, im talking about humans around way before moses
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Just one question
Jun 9, 2025, 2:02 PM
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Humans had a redemptive covenant in place as soon as Adam sinned. Read Genesis again.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Just one question
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Jun 9, 2025, 3:10 PM
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Genesis is a religious text not a science book. Evidence shows humans (multiple species actually) existed well before the timeframe where Adam and Eve would have existed.
I suggest you read a science book instead of myth.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Just one question
Jun 10, 2025, 6:52 PM
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I have read plenty of science books. There are miles of them in the Louvre that contain vast amounts of error, but they were considered fact at time of their publication.
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Varsity [102]
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Yeah, science corrects it's errors over time using the scientific method
Jun 12, 2025, 7:51 PM
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religion doesn't, people just make excuses for them.
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TigerNet Elite [72659]
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I am not sure anyone can answer this
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Jun 6, 2025, 4:56 PM
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and the crickets from the usual TNet Pastors is very telling. It’s absolutely not an anomaly that it has take like 7 hours for 2 replies.
Dont try to pin me to this, because it would take me forever to find it. But either Graham or Stanley stated that if the Bible, and what I like to call the story of Jesus, is presented to you and you deny it, that is when you are in trouble. If you are not aware or if you don’t know Jesus at all….well, I am not sure what their feelings were on that. But I distinctly remember one of them saying if you know and deny. That is the issue.
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110%er [3673]
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Re: I am not sure anyone can answer this
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Jun 6, 2025, 6:03 PM
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William Lane Craig says that it’s based on ones response to god in nature in a more general sense based on Romans 1:20.
It sounds like someone was asking this same question back then and the writer of Romans was responding…
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
But this would seem to insinuate that there are other ways to heaven besides Jesus.
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National Champion [7275]
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I am not sure anyone can answer this
Jun 10, 2025, 6:55 PM
[ in reply to I am not sure anyone can answer this ] |
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It was Graham. Graham pretty much turned into a universalist in his late years. He was wrong.
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Top TigerNet [30209]
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Here is a serious, non-flippant, answer.
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Jun 6, 2025, 7:37 PM
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https://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
Now, I'll ask you a question: What happens to those who have heard and rejected the message?
When somebody asks me, in person, "What about those who have never heard?" my response is, "I'll be glad to discuss that with you. But, why do you ask? It clearly doesn't apply to you. Why aren't you more concerned about what happens to you? Shouldn't you be trying to find the answer to that question first?"
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Here is a serious, non-flippant, answer.
Jun 6, 2025, 9:20 PM
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Truth be known, a certain couple of people on here keep repackaging the old philosophical argument known as “Christianities Achilles heel”.”
They present it over and over in slightly varied form. It is only a hard argument to an Arminian. It is not a hard argument at all from a Calvinistic response.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I'll give you credit
Jun 6, 2025, 9:53 PM
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because as I understand it, the Calvanist position is that everything is according to God's design, including sin and evil. They aren't things he hates, they are things he wants. I don't know what it has to do with Arminians, and I don't care; PLEASE don't explain it to me.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I'll give you credit
Jun 7, 2025, 7:12 AM
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He hates sin and evil. It is part of His plan, but He still detests it.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I'll give you credit
Jun 7, 2025, 7:15 AM
[ in reply to I'll give you credit ] |
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You actually have to realize evil is not a thing. Evil is absence of good just like darkness is absence of light.
There is no thing called dark. There is no thing called evil. It is a very old philosophical debate. To say God created evil, you would first have to establish evil as a thing. You can not do that.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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LOL!***
Jun 9, 2025, 9:58 AM
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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To be clear, you believe this?:
Jun 6, 2025, 9:45 PM
[ in reply to Here is a serious, non-flippant, answer. ] |
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If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we lose our motivation for evangelism. We also run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are automatically saved, then it is logical to make sure no one ever hears the gospel—because then there would be a chance they will reject it and be condemned.
The Bible is clear that those who perish without Christ will face an eternity in hell.
Those who never hear the gospel spend eternity in hell; no exceptions. That would include the millions of people born before Jesus, mentally handicapped people, infants. Now, you can make all sorts of claims and take leaps of faith and suspend reason, and twist it so that does not seem to be the case, because that is certainly not something a reasonable, loving God would include as part of his creation, but that's what it says.
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Top TigerNet [30209]
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When you asked the question...
Jun 7, 2025, 12:13 AM
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...were you looking for an answer or were you looking for a fight?
I tried to give you an answer. Apparently, you dind't want an answer, you wanted an argument. I have no desire to argue with a guy whose only purpose is to argue. (Titus 3:9 - But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.)
I gave you a serious answer. I also asked you a serious question. I notice you have not attempted to answer my question.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Not true at all - I asked a question and you answered. Your answer only
Jun 7, 2025, 12:42 AM
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brings up more obvious questions. I thought this was a discussion board, so I hope you'll answer and not dodge.
Of course I'll answer yours. I asked first so I wanted your answer first
Now, I'll ask you a question: What happens to those who have heard and rejected the message?
I don't think anything happens to them.
"I'll be glad to discuss that with you. But, why do you ask? It clearly doesn't apply to you. Why aren't you more concerned about what happens to you? Shouldn't you be trying to find the answer to that question first?"
I ask because I'm curious how and why people believe that all of that works. Forgive me, as I thought this was a discussion board where such things were discussed and debated. I assumed you engaged with that understanding as well. No ill intentions on my part.
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110%er [3673]
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Re: When you asked the question...
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Jun 7, 2025, 8:39 AM
[ in reply to When you asked the question... ] |
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You didn’t give him an answer, you deflected with another question.
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110%er [3673]
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Re: Here is a serious, non-flippant, answer.
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Jun 7, 2025, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Here is a serious, non-flippant, answer. ] |
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This “answer” if you even want to call it that gets worse everytime I hear it.
You are making a claim: everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus goes to hell.
What about the people who never hear is a natural, logical inquisition.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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And astoundingly, some here claim that those who never hear about Jesus
Jun 8, 2025, 11:23 AM
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do indeed go to hell for eternity. Rather than acknowledge and face the insane evil of such a belief and it's direct conflict with a loving God, they have concocted a convoluted, nonsensical story that allows them to explain it away, or they simply won't address it.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
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Jun 6, 2025, 8:36 PM
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God saves His elect.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Why only his elect?
Jun 6, 2025, 9:46 PM
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And by elect, I assume you mean those he elected before creating them.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why only his elect?
Jun 6, 2025, 10:13 PM
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Elected them before He created anything.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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So, back to the question, why does he create some people to be saved
Jun 7, 2025, 12:44 AM
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and some to go to hell? Why do you believe he would do that?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: So, back to the question, why does he create some people to be saved
Jun 7, 2025, 7:11 AM
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None of the elect do.
All have sinned. All deserve Hell. In Gods infinite grace, He saved many from the fire.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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You did not answer the question, you deflected.***
Jun 7, 2025, 11:00 AM
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: You did not answer the question, you deflected.***
Jun 7, 2025, 12:21 PM
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I didn’t deflect. In His grace he saves many. Why not all? For His glory.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Souls he created burning in hell glorifies God?***
Jun 7, 2025, 1:07 PM
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Souls he created burning in hell glorifies God?***
Jun 7, 2025, 2:41 PM
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Yep. His glory is displayed in His grace. His glory is equally displayed in His wrath.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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How does that "glorify" God?
Jun 7, 2025, 6:25 PM
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Unlike humans, who, barring mental illness, usually want the best for their children, and out of a pure and powerful love, do everything they can to make that possible, it seems that to God, we are simply a means to an end; his glorification, and he set it all up so that many of us would reject him and he could could be somehow glorified by millions of us suffering in hell. Quite a glorious victory for him, I suppose.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: How does that "glorify" God?
Jun 8, 2025, 10:55 AM
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All for His glory.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Which is pure evil, if his "glory" requires or includes eternal suffering
Jun 8, 2025, 11:27 AM
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for no other reason. Not a God worthy of my "worship", and a sick, demented theology.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Which is pure evil, if his "glory" requires or includes eternal suffering
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Jun 8, 2025, 11:36 AM
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Pretty strange definition of "all-loving" huh?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Which is pure evil, if his "glory" requires or includes eternal suffering
Jun 9, 2025, 2:04 PM
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He loves with perfect love. Perfect love harmonizes with His wrath.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Which is pure evil, if his "glory" requires or includes eternal suffering
Jun 9, 2025, 3:12 PM
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You have a weird definition of love.
Image all those jews who endured the holocaust (which you rightly would call a evil) that would end up in hell only to be tortured even worse by god for being jewish and not Christian.
It’s insanity.
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National Champion [7275]
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CU Medallion [20304]
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I will give you my thoughts on this
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Jun 6, 2025, 9:49 PM
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God has done many things to ensure His creation knows Him. He walked with them in the Garden of Eden. He struck down the Tower of Babel. He destroyed the earth with water. He also ensured there was a family left to bring remembrance back upon the earth. But when it was all said and done, and that family walked on dry ground again, the father got drunk and one of his sons raped him. Is that God's fault?
As time moved forward, families began to populate the world again. How many of them, I wonder, remembered to thank God for His goodness to them? How many of them sat at the dinner table and talked about God's goodness to them and others? Or, instead, after the flood, how long did it take for people to walk away from God altogether? Not one spoken word to their family or friends of God, not one gesture of gratitude displayed toward God for the family to see? How long did it take, then, for God to be forgotten entirely? Is that God's fault, that mankind began running from Him in the Garden and continues to do so today?
Is it God's fault that He is not remembered, or even known by many cultures? Or is it man's fault?
If this seems "hard" and unbelievable, even unbearable, you should ask yourself, "Why?" Why is it that someone can always find a reason to blame God, and always walk away from the responsibility for what they have advanced in this life themselves?
Why is it so hard to stop, and turn back to God? Knowing that He has never given up on creation. Even giving His Son as a sacrifice for those who will open their eyes, and their hearts, to see and believe. And having heard, will they share.., or go back the ways that have made them who they are?
This is not a condemnation of people, but it is a calling to open eyes and ears. "For the seeing eye, and the hearing ear, the Lord has made them both."
John 3:17; For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Just a thought...
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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That's interesting I guess, but what are your answers to the
Jun 6, 2025, 9:58 PM
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questions?
What is your belief about people who never hear or know about Jesus? How do they get into heaven?
Does God make exceptions for those people, and base their salvation on other factors??
Does God somehow speak to their hearts and reveal the message to them, giving them a chance at salvation?
Are those people just SOL?
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CU Medallion [20304]
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Re: That's interesting I guess, but what are your answers to the
Jun 6, 2025, 10:09 PM
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No one comes to the Father but by Me - Jesus. That is why Jesus was sent - the world is already condemned.
There can be no exceptions - for God is not a man, that He should lie...
God will speak through those who have walked in the courage to be [missionaries] in their land. There is only one plan of salvation. Nothing apart from Jesus will work. Many will be lost, as you have stated in the past, but not all.
People are not just SOL... they are what they were made to be by their father and grandfathers before them. Perhaps one day they can stand before them and ask, "Why didn't you remember God, if not for your sake, then for my sake?"
Luke 17:7-10
And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Thank you. Why do you think God brought millions of people into
Jun 6, 2025, 11:27 PM
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existence never knowing about Jesus, therefore destined to hell for eternity?
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CU Medallion [20304]
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Re: Thank you. Why do you think God brought millions of people into
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Jun 7, 2025, 7:19 AM
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First, before we go into this circular logic about why God is not a just God, stop.
I am not here to give a defense for who God is or why God does what He does. He is God and does not need me to defend Him. How could I when His ways are above mine, and His thoughts higher than mine?
Besides, you already know what I think on the matter. I am thankful God allows one to live with choices...and free to make the right or wrong choice on their own. It is not God's fault that people continue to walk away from Him. You want to be you, then be you.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I asked a reasonable, obvious question that can't be avoided by anyone who
Jun 7, 2025, 2:53 PM
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is concerned about the truth. Plus, it's a fascinating subject.
According to your beliefs (I think), God has created, and continues to create souls that he knows will spend eternity in hell. I believe your explanation as to why God would do that is that he wants us to have, as a product of free will, the ability to refuse his offer of salvation. If you're fine summing up your beliefs and leaving it at that, I respect that. Still, I'm curious and am trying to understand why you believe a God with literally infinite options would make eternity in hell one of them. For what purpose? To what end? What does it tell us about God? As far as I can tell, your take is that God is loving and merciful for giving us a way out of the scenario he set up.
Like I said earlier, who would bring a child into the world if they knew it would eventually spend eternity in hell? Would whatever experience it had on earth be worth it? Of course not. It would be cruel, or irresponsible at best. But we are told that's exactly the way God operates. I'm just trying to understand how people accept or ignore that.
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CU Medallion [20304]
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And I gave a reasonable answer
Jun 7, 2025, 3:40 PM
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Just come on back if'n you need it repeated in a few weeks.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I'll continue to ask, rest assured, but just not to those of you
Jun 7, 2025, 10:56 PM
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who are not interested in the truth or are afraid to question their own beliefs. Some of you are okay with a God who creates souls knowing they will spend eternity in hell, and I can accept that and move on, hoping that some day I can find someone who is interested in serious conversation and is willing to offer simple, direct answers that don't only result in more obvious questions without getting defensive and offering sermons about their beliefs instead.
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CU Medallion [20304]
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According to your beliefs
Jun 7, 2025, 11:38 PM
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as clearly displayed throughout this forum, you do not agree with the portrait of God as presented in Scripture. That's fine. But if you wish to ask questions that only infuse, or overlay, your non-scriptural beliefs then you are not being honest when you say you want a conversation.
And, I am always interested in truth... but are you saying you are the only one in this conversation who has hold of it concerning God? I use scripture to answer questions about God, but that doesn't agree with your truth. And as long as you seek to define God through philosophies of men, we will not agree. I will always rely on scripture to define God, as He has revealed Himself. Here are some things that God shows:
Proverbs 16:4; The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Psalm 37:12-13 The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord laughs at him, for He sees that his day is coming.
Are you afraid to face these truth's that God has revealed in scripture?
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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First we have to establish that God revealed those things in
Jun 8, 2025, 1:16 AM
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scripture, and we're a long way from that. You and others telling me so doesn't make it so. It's not God I am rejecting at all; it's the things some people believe about God. I think they are wrong, just as they think I'm wrong.
but are you saying you are the only one in this conversation who has hold of it concerning God?
Absolutely not. I'm not the one who claims to know. I fully recognize my limitations as a human being and the natural reliance upon faith in the abscence of the ability to know. That faith, for each of us, is a result of personal experience combined with one's ability to reason and make sense of it all.
Personally, I believe we all have the ability to connect with God on a deeper, spiritual level, and I have faith that God loves all of us. I don't believe God created everything such that most souls, including souls of people who never heard about Jesus, would spend eternity in hell. I believe the bible is a combination of myth, history, wisdom, and spiritual truth, all of which was written and rewritten and changed and edited and complied by men over time, based on their life experience and all of the limitations that entailed. Those are my beliefs, my faith.
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CU Medallion [20304]
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You have a "Trust" issue
Jun 8, 2025, 2:45 PM
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and an inability to have faith in what is provided. The Bible, a compilation of writings spanning over a few thousand years, with a common theme pointing to Jesus and revealing God is unacceptable for you because you cannot believe it has yet to establish itself (the Bible) as God speaking to mankind, except for what you choose to believe in it. Well, there you go.
Isn't it great that you have the ability to choose what you believe!
Hope you have a good day!
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Varsity [102]
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Re: You have a "Trust" issue
Jun 8, 2025, 2:59 PM
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>Isn't it great that you have the ability to choose what you believe!
You don't choose beliefs but besides your statement about univocality is retcon.
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CU Medallion [20304]
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Re: You have a "Trust" issue
Jun 8, 2025, 9:08 PM
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Certainly, people do choose what they will believe or not concerning scriptural context. They accept one thing and reject another. They build a mosaic of the things that make them feel best about God and themselves - when the whole point of scripture, and the working of the holy Spirit, is to convict the world of sin, and the consequence of rejecting the only plan of salvation that includes the forgiveness of sin.
You accept scripture or not. If you can reject any particular teaching in scripture then you may as well reject it all - since you [make yourself] the authority. To say God is "loving" and would not create a "hell" where people will suffer is not scripturally sound or correct.
If I misunderstand your point, I apologize.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: You have a "Trust" issue
Jun 8, 2025, 9:32 PM
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>If I misunderstand your point, I apologize.
No worries, I think we just have different definitions of "choosing".
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Re: You have a "Trust" issue
Jun 9, 2025, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to You have a "Trust" issue ] |
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You have a "Trust" issue and an inability to have faith in what is provided.
I don't trust things that make no sense and are filled with errors and contradictions, all of which you can't accept, and instead have committed to such a belief and must subscribe to all kinds of rationalizations and convoluted reasoning and stories to explain it away.
My very subjective belief is that I see and feel God all around me, in the miracle that is life. I even see God and his love and wisdom in the bible. I don't have to believe that the bible is His inerrant word in order to believe that.
The bible is a collection of stories/fact/history/myth written and rewritten and changed and edited over and over and over and eventually compiled into the several versions we have today by flawed men. We have no original manuscripts.
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National Champion [7275]
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I know that Augustine, along with countless others, gave his thoughts
Jun 7, 2025, 3:16 PM
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and theories on the matter. So ...
Augustine: "God creates millions of souls that he knows will spend eternity in hell because ____________" so I accept this as the answer.
Fill in the blank.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I know that Augustine, along with countless others, gave his thoughts
Jun 7, 2025, 3:55 PM
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Because He wanted to.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 7, 2025, 11:04 PM
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If it's for his Glory, how does that glorify God? Wouldn't having them spend eternity in heaven glorify him? So why hell?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 8, 2025, 10:58 AM
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His glory is shown in His wrath.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire?
Jun 8, 2025, 11:45 AM
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Sounds like we are all just part of a video game designed by God for his entertainment, where he can pretend "victories" and revel in the subsequent "glory".
It's a childish, evil concept of God.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire?
Jun 8, 2025, 4:37 PM
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Your interpretation of His grand creation is comical.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire?
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Jun 8, 2025, 5:11 PM
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Yours is that he literally creates people for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. Yours is a bit more sinister than comical.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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He literally said that people burning in hell glorifies God.
Jun 8, 2025, 10:16 PM
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It is bizarre and evil on every level.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: He literally said that people burning in hell glorifies God.
Jun 9, 2025, 2:00 PM
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Nothing God does is Evil. His doing something, by defacto, makes the act righteous and just.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: He literally said that people burning in hell glorifies God.
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Jun 9, 2025, 3:14 PM
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Only if you twist yourself in a logical knot to get there.
Creating sentient beings for the soul purpose of torturing is a sick manifestation of ancient men.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire?
Jun 9, 2025, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire? ] |
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It is the doctrine of the early church. The doctrine now known as Calvinism dates back to the earliest recorded post scriptural writings. Until the Early 20th century it was the dominant doctrine. It is again becoming the Dominant doctrine in several major denominations. It's not some new, wacky concept. "Free Will" is the new concept.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire?
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Jun 9, 2025, 3:54 PM
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I actually agree with you on the free will part, just for very different reasons.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I believe that God created everything out of love, and in such a way that
Jun 8, 2025, 10:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: Does God have a need for Glory? Or is it just a desire? ] |
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requires no wrath or judgement, and no need for hell. Nothing to correct or fix, or anything that requires a blood sacrifice. I don't believe God wants any of that, and if he didn't want it, it wouldn't exist. I believe our existence here is for the purpose of experiencing the physical realm which includes good/bad/joy/suffering/love/hate etc., and ultimately to bring God's unconditional love to it all so that we and God (we are part of God) can realize the full potential of what it has to offer. It's part of God's creative process.
That may be comical, but you believe we are just characters in God's video game, which he designed soley for what you call his "glory".
I acknowledge that my beliefs are not objective fact, but exactly like you and everybody else, they are the best I can do based on my personal experience, my gut and intuition, and my ability to think. Unlike for many who disagree with me, I don't claim to know, and don't claim that anyone who disagrees or has different beliefs is automatically wrong. What I can do, however, is recognize illogical and convoluted thinking while ignoring or rationalizing contradictions, and weed out a lot of things in the process.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I believe that God created everything out of love, and in such a way that
Jun 9, 2025, 2:06 PM
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Why do you keep discussing Jehovah and Jesus? You make it plain that you reject them. Why not spend your time seeking the God you want to serve?
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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60+% of Americans claim to be Christian. Many of them are close friends
Jun 10, 2025, 7:03 PM
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and family. PLus I was raised in the Baptist church and have been a member at an Episcopal church. So, it is quite natural that I am curious as to how Christians answer these questions. I never considered any of them until I was nearly grown, and when I talk to friends and family about it, almost none of them have given it much thought. For them, it went like this:
God created everything, Adam sinned and things went haywire, and after that every human was born destined to spend eternity in hell. God eventually got pissed off and killed everybody and everything except for what was on the ark, and started over. That didn't work either, so he said one day he would send a messiah to save everybody. A little over a thousand years later he did. Because God loves us so much, Jesus was sent as to be tortured and die on the cross so that God would forgive us so we wouldn't go to hell. Otherwise, God would just have to let us keep spending eternity there.
They never questioned it. Never even thought about it. Just accepted it. When I asked the obvious questions, they had no answers, and for the most part just looked at me like I'd lost my mind. Some of them got mad and frustrated because I questioned it. In here, however, many of you in here have thought about it a great deal, and are familiar with the history of the theology and have the standard answers offered by apologists. That's why I keep discussing it; I want to understand and question and discuss and debate. I figured a discussion board called "Religion and Philosophy" filled with knowledgable and willing folks would be a good place.
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Varsity [102]
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 9, 2025, 1:55 PM
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Everyone sins. All deserve Hell. God in His great love and grace saves many from what they deserve.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 9, 2025, 3:15 PM
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Why do all deserve hell?
Even if one “sinned” how does that justify eternal torture?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 9, 2025, 3:32 PM
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God, who makes the rules, said that was the just punishment for transgressing His law.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
1
Jun 9, 2025, 3:56 PM
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Well you and some other people say that, I seriously doubt you can show where God said it.
Furthermore, it sounds like you don’t know the reason other than “god tortures people because it glorifies him”
I thought you guys had answers?
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Apparently, if God raped an infant, it would not only be good, it would
Jun 10, 2025, 2:56 PM
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Glorify God. To each his own, but it's a bizarre, wacko concept to me, and is simply the result of making stuff up when you've run out of answers that make any sense.
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National Champion [7275]
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 11, 2025, 3:24 PM
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That’s just a platitude.
WHY does he get glory from torturing people?
Because to me, it sorta sounds like you are just repeating something you’ve heard without giving it much thought
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 11, 2025, 6:21 PM
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I have thought about it plenty.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 11, 2025, 8:33 PM
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And the result is just a platitude?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 11, 2025, 10:02 PM
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No platitude. His Glory is displayed in His wrath and judgment.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why does he want to create souls that would spend eternity in hell?
Jun 11, 2025, 11:20 PM
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Literally a platitude.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why would God be wrathful when everything is unfloding exactly as he
Jun 12, 2025, 6:39 PM
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Man has ability to. Choose his sin and his degrees of sin.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Why would God be wrathful when everything is unfloding exactly as he
Jun 12, 2025, 7:55 PM
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what a weird "design".
Talk about setting up creation for failure.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Why would God be wrathful when everything is unfloding exactly as he
Jun 14, 2025, 11:21 AM
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If Christ sacrifice was ordained before the foundations of the Earth, failure was at the same time ordained.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103169]
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Re: I will give you my thoughts on this
Jun 7, 2025, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to I will give you my thoughts on this ] |
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Two generations is all it takes for a family to forget God's goodness.
An Amen to the sermon and defense of God's judgements for Psa 19 declares an immutable truth:
"9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether."
Fear in this verse indicates respect; respect for God's holiness, His virtue, His reason and His acts.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I will give you my thoughts on this
1
Jun 8, 2025, 11:49 AM
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ok so let's run with that.
Someone was born into a family after two generations where they've forgotten about God. You still get the punishment when you grew up in that environment?
That's neat.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103169]
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Since you are impeaching God's judgement.
Jun 7, 2025, 10:26 AM
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What would you do if you were god?
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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First, let's get something straight. I am NOT impeaching God.
Jun 7, 2025, 3:07 PM
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I am questioning other people's OPINIONS AND BELIEFS about God, so stop with the arrogant nonsense of pretending that YOU know for a fact.
If I were God, and if I were truly good and loving, I would not create souls that I knew would spend eternity in hell. I would make sure the souls I created and loved would be with me forever. With infinite options as God, I would have no need to punish, as I would have zero reason to allow anything that wasn't exactly what I wanted.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [103169]
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Who's pretending?
Jun 7, 2025, 7:30 PM
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I talk to my Father everyday and many times during the day.
Your problem is that you don't like His judgments and simply think He's wrong about what is sinful and what's not.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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You.
Jun 8, 2025, 12:38 AM
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And anybody who confuses their sincere, heartfelt religious faith with objective truth.
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National Champion [7275]
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Clemson Icon [26170]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 1:43 AM
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Your question seems to be in response to the idea that one "doesnt go to heaven" because of his choice about Jesus, an idea that would raise a fairness issue about people who havent heard. I dont think that idea about Jesus reflects where we are, or what is happening between us and Jesus. The OT and NT are clear that our separation from God is universal, a condition caused by our own desire for independence from Him. We have all been granted that eternal choice. That is independent of Jesus or what one thinks about Him.
Nothing God then does is unfair. He could have saved no one. He could save only one, by whatever rationale He chooses, and none of us could consider that unfair. Or He could save 10 by any other process He chooses. Or 1000. Or He could come as human and pay an atoning sacrifice, applied to those who return to Him by the same way they left. And he can offer that to whomever He likes.
There is no issue of fairness here.
So, about those who havent heard. I dont know that such people exist, and I do not know how God assesses whether someone is trusting Him for atonement. I do know Jesus died and was resurrected, and that both you and I either accept His offer or decide to remain in the state we were already in. No one else affects that, and no appeal to a fairness issue that doesnt exist can release us from the state we have been in all along. To put it bluntly, no one has that standing; if someone does, he can provide an answer to ClemsonTiger1988® at the top of the board.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 11:59 AM
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So, about those who havent heard. I dont know that such people exist,
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
How do people born before Jesus know? How does an infant know? How do people in isolated parts of the world know? How does a severely mentally handicapped person know? The only way would be if God somehow delivered that message to them spiritually or subconsciously, which may very well be, but not only is that total speculation, but it would mean that God automatically accounts for such situations, and therefore "spreading the word" is not necessary for salvation; God has it handled.
Either God is in control, or he's not. If he's in control, then everything here is his responsibility, including the sin and evil he supposedly hates. If God gave up that control by choice, then he is responsible for his choice. Can't have it both ways without throwing all common sense and reason out the window, and just making the claim in spite of it.
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Clemson Icon [26170]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 12:28 PM
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You triggered over one half-sentence? I dealt with it: There is no fairness issue. You and everyone will get exactly what we all chose. From that point, He can choose to save no one, or 100 for an arbitrary reason. He doesn't have to run it by you: your choice is coming. There is no whining defense of fairness here. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant. You know about Jesus. No whining.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 12:47 PM
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> I dealt with it: There is no fairness issue. You and everyone will get exactly what we all chose.
This is your belief, yes, we get that.
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Clemson Icon [26170]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 2:05 PM
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And that's the answer to the question.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 2:55 PM
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So your answer to the question:
"What is your belief about people who never hear or know about Jesus?" is that they get what they chose?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Say what?
1
Jun 8, 2025, 4:39 PM
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His elect will hear. The non elect would reject even if they had heard.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 5:12 PM
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Says who? Paul?
ok bud
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 9, 2025, 2:10 PM
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Paul writing under Inspiration of The Holy Spirit, Jesus, Jehovah,; they all make it pretty plain.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Say what?
Jun 9, 2025, 3:57 PM
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And you know he was inspired by the holy spirit, how?
Oh let me guess, someone else said so in the bible?
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 8, 2025, 1:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Say what? ] |
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As I've stated, if God puts people here who have no knowledge of Jesus, and therefore no way to be saved (I am responding here only to those who claim there is no other way), then it is, in fact, extremely unfair. You can't just declare it otherwise and make it so, or make up or regurgitate a convoluted, illological story entirely for the purposes of supporting the idea, then get all triggered when other people won't accept it.
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Clemson Icon [26170]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 8, 2025, 2:19 PM
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Your momma. 
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National Champion [7275]
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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That's the evil insanity one has to accept in order to hold those beliefs.***
Jun 8, 2025, 10:54 PM
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: That's the evil insanity one has to accept in order to hold those beliefs.***
Jun 9, 2025, 2:12 PM
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His actions are by Defacto Good and just.
He is The supreme being. What He does is right.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: That's the evil insanity one has to accept in order to hold those beliefs.***
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Jun 9, 2025, 4:46 PM
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This is just begging the question if you can’t justify it.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 8, 2025, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree. ] |
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I don’t get triggered. I don’t really care if you accept it or not. If you are elected, you will. If you are not elect, you won’t. Nothing I can do about that.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 10:05 AM
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Out of pure curiosity, I’m assuming you believe that you are one of these rare elected individuals.
How do you know exactly?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 10:07 AM
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Not rare at all.
I am indeed with The Holy Spirit. My relationship with Him is very real.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 11:32 AM
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Doesn’t it say few will find it?
Also, I’m curious about specific, what about your relationship is “very real”?
Details?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 2:14 PM
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What verse you asking about?
Yes. He is as real to me as this phone I am typing on.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 3:58 PM
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Mathew 7:14
So you can’t give specifics, it’s just a belief?
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 4:07 PM
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Yep. Few. Just wanting to make sure we were on same page.
It is a relationship. We commune with each other.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 4:14 PM
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You said it “wasn’t rare” so how does this put us on the same page?
Again, i’m asking for specifics if you are willing.
What does this communion look like. Do you literally touch/hear him?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 4:42 PM
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Maybe 20 to 30 percent of people are saved. I would not consider that rare. I would definitely consider it a minority, but not rare. I would consider 1 percent or 2 percent rare.
He is an inner voice. I hear Him. I feel Him. He guides me. He convicts me.
Nothing I can quantitate or scientifically prove to you.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 4:50 PM
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You can quantify it this, way: do you mean literally hear him? As in hearing voices? Im not being derogatory, just specific.
Also, i find it interesting that you are implying god chose to eternally torture the majority of people, completely out of their control according to you, for his “glory” and you call this good.
I’m not sure why you’d be upset with the holocaust then, that’s not even a drop in the ocean of what you are claiming god does
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 5:22 PM
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Not audible voices, but definite communication. Scripture refers to it as a still small voice in I kings 19.
God has a plan. It comes to pass, always. Nothing is outside His plan. There was a plan in the Holocaust. God could have easily stopped it. He didn’t. God is God. I am man. He is the potter. I am the clay. The clay may not fully understand why the potter does what He does, but the clay trusts The Potter.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 6:11 PM
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That's fine, it just seems to fall clearly into religious beliefs and interpreting your own thoughts. I'm not seeing anything here that requires a supernatural explanation.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
Jun 9, 2025, 6:46 PM
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It’s different. I do carry on conversations with myself in my head quite often, but this is different.
It all boils down to we all believe what we believe. Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, satanist, etc. We all believe what we do and have our own reasons for it. I believe it is my job to share the Gospel. What people do with it is not my responsibility.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
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Jun 9, 2025, 7:24 PM
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No problem with that. Just disagree is all
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I don't think I'm the one that is triggered, I just disagree.
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Jun 9, 2025, 7:28 PM
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That's what makes life interesting..
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Here's the thing:
Jun 9, 2025, 9:43 PM
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You do you. It’s your decision. It’s my decision. One of us is wrong. Time will tell who.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Here's the thing:
Jun 9, 2025, 9:54 PM
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You’re both wrong 
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I very well could be wrong. In my experience there's no way to
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Jun 10, 2025, 3:30 PM
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know, and I have no reason to believe anybody who says they do. All I can do is listen, and see if what they say makes sense or sounds reasonable. Given that reality, I'm doing my best, and it doesn't mean I can't have faith.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: I very well could be wrong. In my experience there's no way to
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Jun 10, 2025, 3:50 PM
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I know and agree, that was more tongue-in-cheek
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Re: Say what?
Jun 8, 2025, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to Say what? ] |
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> No whining.
Hey Smiling, no whining when his super loving god tortures you for eternity.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know ] |
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Nothing God then does is unfair.
If people spend eternity in hell never knowing how to avoid it (accepting that Jesus died on the cross in atonement), then that could be the very definition of unfair.
He could have saved no one. He could save only one, by whatever rationale He chooses, and none of us could consider that unfair. Or He could save 10 by any other process He chooses. Or 1000. Or He could come as human and pay an atoning sacrifice, applied to those who return to Him by the same way they left.
Or, he could save everyone, or could have created things in a way that there was no need for salvation. I believe that's exactly what he did.
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 2:13 PM
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Nothing is unfair about getting one's choice, imo.
But sure, one possibility is that there is no need for salvation. I will agree with that. That was the serpent's message in Eden so, as the lady in the clip said, Eve could lead us to the beautiful understanding we now have, all that is needed for life and eternity. The serpent was right. The deception was, and still is, in what he was right about. He's good, no question.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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If one dies without ever hearing about Jesus, there is no choice.
Jun 9, 2025, 9:46 AM
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That's the whole point. And there is no evidence or real reason to think there aren't millions of people who died without knowing about Jesus.
But sure, one possibility is that there is no need for salvation. I will agree with that. That was the serpent's message in Eden so, as the lady in the clip said, Eve could lead us to the beautiful understanding we now have, all that is needed for life and eternity. The serpent was right. The deception was, and still is, in what he was right about. He's good, no question.
If you believe that really happened, and base your beliefs on that, I'm totally fine with that, and I respect that. I don't happen to agree, and I think it is a myth that was made up in an honest attempt to explain how we got here, and why evil existed, and how God responded. Claiming God said it (God's word) does not make it so, and I find no reason to believe he did. And using scripture to prove scripture is absurd.
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National Champion [7275]
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Either God is in control or he's not.
Jun 9, 2025, 10:39 AM
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If he is in control, all of it, EVERYTHING his responsibility. Sin, evil, hate, the devil, hell, etc.. It's all him.
There is no "need" for anything. If he gave us the ability to choose, then he's responsible for what happens as a result of giving us that choice, especially when he knew from the get-go that Adam would sin and many of us would spend eternity in hell as a result. Only an evil God would do that. Yet the story is told as if God simply reacted to what man did, responding with death and hell and a big flood and wars and blood sacrifice for salvation. God was reacting with wrath and disappointment even though he created it that way. It's a story full of holes that simply doesn't add up.
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Varsity [102]
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 10, 2025, 5:31 PM
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It did matter.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 10, 2025, 5:54 PM
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You just said that there was no need for salvation until Adam sinned, are you saying the humans before him were sinless?
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 10, 2025, 6:50 PM
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I don’t believe there were humans before Adam.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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I assume by salvation, you don't mean accepting Jesus as lord and savior,
Jun 10, 2025, 7:12 PM
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but rather being fortunate enough to be elected before being born.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: I assume by salvation, you don't mean accepting Jesus as lord and savior,
Jun 10, 2025, 9:05 PM
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You must accept Him as Savior.
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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If one is elected, is it possible for them to reject Jesus and not accept
Jun 11, 2025, 10:04 AM
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him as savior?
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Re: that's fine but that's where the hard evidence is.
Jun 10, 2025, 9:06 PM
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I believe Genesis. Literal 6 24 hr day creation.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: that's fine but that's where the hard evidence is.
Jun 10, 2025, 9:11 PM
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Again, that’s fine there’s just no evidence that’s true other than there bible saying so
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: that's fine but that's where the hard evidence is.
Jun 10, 2025, 9:30 PM
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There is evidence, but The Bible is all I need.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: that's fine but that's where the hard evidence is.
Jun 10, 2025, 10:05 PM
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That’s why it’s a religious belief, not a scientific one.
The physical evidence contradicts the biblical one. Adam wasn’t the first human.
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Clemson Icon [26170]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 6:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know ] |
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If you are going to invoke Jesus as a basis for your question, the answer is with Jesus, who said the Genesis account was true. Reading that, and what Jesus said, provides the answer to your question.
But you dont have to believe any of that. If you dont believe Jesus was the atonement for our sin, whether that is true is the subject, not what the Bible says about the matter. The subject is one or the other: (1) given that Jesus is Messiah, what is the answer to X question, or (2) is Jesus the Messiah? One or the other.
Unless you are just starting arguments.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 8:21 PM
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In my opinion, he is not a seeker and is just starting arguments and trying to get some ungrounded Christians to falter. He keeps using an ancient philosophical argument known as “The Achilles Heel of Christianity”.
It really is not a hard argument to dispel, but he keeps asking it over and over and over. Augustine satisfactorily answered it.
I just keep playing his game because it is somewhat entertaining.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
1
Jun 8, 2025, 9:33 PM
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>In my opinion, he is not a seeker and is just starting arguments and trying to get some ungrounded Christians to falter.
Given your stated beliefs, this statement doesn't make sense.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 9:40 PM
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I don't believe a true Christian can falter. I believe he believes they can.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 8, 2025, 10:00 PM
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I think you are being pretty disingenuous to him tbh.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 9, 2025, 2:15 PM
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No. Just forming opinion based on what I have read. I could be wrong.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 9, 2025, 3:59 PM
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Touche
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Orange Immortal [65960]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 9, 2025, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know ] |
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If you are going to invoke Jesus as a basis for your question, the answer is with Jesus, who said the Genesis account was true. Reading that, and what Jesus said, provides the answer to your question.
Not so. It has not been established that Jesus said that, or that the bible is historically accurate with regard to every word Jesus supposedly said. I can certainly apply reason and logic without making any such assumptions.
The subject is one or the other: (1) given that Jesus is Messiah, what is the answer to X question, or (2) is Jesus the Messiah? One or the other.
That was not the subject of my question. Here were my questions:
Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know about Jesus? How do they get into heaven?
Does God make exceptions for those people, and base their salvation on other factors??
Does God somehow speak to their hearts and reveal the message to them, giving them a chance at salvation?
Are those people just SOL?
Just wondering how that works.
I assume that as a Christian, one believes Jesus is the messiah, so the question is asked with that assumption.
I am seriously interested in how Christians explain that. The answers may very well lead to more questions; I would be surprised if they didn't. I may disagree with some answers and challenge them or ask for further explanation. When people respond, I assume they are interested as well, as they continue to engage. That's not me "starting arguments".
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Orange Elite [5134]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 14, 2025, 5:13 PM
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Here’s a couple of verses that can add to the discussion. Read Romans 1:20. Then follow it with Isaiah 55:8-9.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 14, 2025, 8:54 PM
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I mean, Romans 1:20 is pretty easily refuted when so many people have not "clearly seen". Seems more likely that Paul was simply wrong.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Christians: What is your belief about people who never hear or know
Jun 15, 2025, 12:38 PM
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All know there is a God Not being willing to admit is a different problem..
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Varsity [102]
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Again, super easy to refute. I do not know there is a god.
Jun 15, 2025, 1:00 PM
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If I knew there was a god, I would believe in him, that's kinda how belief works.
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: Again, super easy to refute. I do not know there is a god.
Jun 15, 2025, 3:03 PM
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The Holy Spirit says you know so I will take His Word for it.
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Varsity [102]
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right...***
Jun 15, 2025, 4:06 PM
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: right...***
Jun 16, 2025, 2:33 PM
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Yep
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Varsity [102]
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Re: right...***
Jun 16, 2025, 3:28 PM
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You are entitled to your opinion even if it’s clearly wrong
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National Champion [7275]
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Re: right...***
Jun 16, 2025, 7:06 PM
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I think my opinion is right, but that's why it's an opinion and not a fact.
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Varsity [102]
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Re: right...***
1
Jun 16, 2025, 8:32 PM
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Well we can agree on that
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