|
Replies: 40
| visibility 1
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:18 PM
|
|
is the fact that we are not a well-coached team.
It’s even more frustrating since the talent level is elite. We have mostly 4 and 5 star players who many power 5 programs wanted. They are athletic freaks and have good skills (or did in high school).
And they can’t perform consistently, not even against teams with much less talent.
This is not nearly as simple as our QB struggling. We are struggling at most of the position groups on our team.
I’m concerned that our coaches don’t see the depth of our issues. I’ll be surprised if we see any significant changes before next year.
|
|
|
|
 |
All-American [593]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 549
Joined: 1/2/13
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:24 PM
|
|
Judge, I give you a hard time sometimes but it comes from a place of sincerity…and I hope you don’t take those personally. This post, I must say though, is spot on. We are NOT a well coached team. I would prefer to lose and play well than to play like dirt and win. There was a point in time when we were well coached though, and I hope Dabo can get us back to that point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [593]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 549
Joined: 1/2/13
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:43 PM
|
|
I wanna qualify a touch. I believe there are certain position groups that are relatively well coached, namely linebacker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1923]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 327
Joined: 12/25/02
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:24 PM
|
|
We don't have that smash mouth attitude anymore I am not smart enough to know if it is conditioning or coaching or both.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1231]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/16/05
|
This right here.
Nov 28, 2022, 6:02 AM
|
|
We get punched in the mouth and don’t punch back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [876]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 906
Joined: 9/9/13
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:25 PM
|
|
It may take another year of regression until Dabo is forced to make changes. Undeniable regression would have to be seen. At the moment, a 10 win season is enough to keep our brand elevated to near top tier program. We are now a gold tier program as opposed to platinum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1418]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1619
Joined: 11/21/00
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 9:01 PM
|
|
A lot of teams would have won 10 games playing our schedule.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2523]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 1171
Joined: 9/10/18
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:26 PM
|
|
If a home loss to South Carolina isn't enough to open Dabo's eyes, then we're in big trouble. Everyone is screaming for Cade, but is there any evidence this coaching staff can develop him? What will Goodwin look like with a young defense?
I'm afraid the wheels might really start to come off next season, all because Dabo can't put his ego aside.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Who are the athletic freaks at WR?
Nov 27, 2022, 8:26 PM
|
|
We certainly know what they look like, who looks like that on this roster?
Can definitely question recruiting there, really since 2018. All of Scott's signees in 2019 were abject busts. 2020 the same for Grisham. Beaux Collins is serviceable from 2021. Williams is a hit from 2022 with the jury still out on Randall and Turner
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
The recruiting speaks for itself.
Nov 27, 2022, 8:45 PM
|
|
2019:
Frank Ladson, 4*, #7 WR and #39 player overall per 247Sports
Joe Ngata, 4*, #9 WR and #52 player overall
2020:
EJ Williams, 4*, #13 WR and #69 player overall
2021:
Beaux Collins, 4*, #12 WR and #86 player overall
2022:
Antonio Williams, 4*, #9 WR and #61 player overall
These guys were all considered among the best wide receivers in their class, and the top 100 players regardless of position. In other words, elite. The guys from 2019-2021 have either failed to develop much if any, or transferred due to lack of playing time.
How many WRs we’ve recruited the last several cycles have been reliable? Maybe Antonio Williams, but even if he pans out he’s one of 5 listed above. We should be developing more than 20% of our elite receivers.
This is not considering the other receivers we recruited, none of whom seemed to pan out either. There were certainly some highly touted ones I left out, only because they were lower than top 100 overall.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Which is exactly wh***
Nov 27, 2022, 8:56 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
What I said
Nov 27, 2022, 8:59 PM
|
|
We've missed badly there since 2018 when Ross came in. I don't think that's up for debate. Williams is a player, but totally different from those other guys we recruited. It's an adjustment we needed to make. The kid from Greenville this year the same
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4491]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 2888
Joined: 11/19/21
|
Yes but it starts at the QB position
Nov 27, 2022, 8:34 PM
|
|
and whatever is going on there stinks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16213]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12767
Joined: 11/14/09
|
We are ranked nationally pretty close to our overall
Nov 27, 2022, 8:34 PM
|
|
recruiting rankings over the years leading up. Dabo has normally had us performing over that but obvious struggles at the QB position the last two seasons has us on the wrong side of that. You probably know that but can't stand to pass up a trolling op when you see one, digging for double standards when it comes to poor Brownell and his lack of resources but overachievement with his 2-4 stars.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10762
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: We are ranked nationally pretty close to our overall
Nov 27, 2022, 8:39 PM
|
|
Yes, we’re a whopping -5 from our total team ranking on 247 but it’s quite apparent that the 2021 and 2022 rankings were even less reliable than normal due to limited playing time from covid. And, despite JK’s protestations, we’re ranked higher than our total football expenditures ranking. So I’d call that a push on get a return on our investments. Basketball on the other hand is ranked in the 200s with a 13th year head coach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2471]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2672
Joined: 9/17/10
|
Judge, I’ll be honest. I’ve said some harsh things
Nov 27, 2022, 8:37 PM
|
|
about you in the past concerning your support of Brownell, but I’m with you 100% on our football assistant coaches. Losing a guy like Venables is going to set you back, I don’t care who you are. But the offense… holy crap. The former player/happy family BS needs to stop. We are squandering top/elite talent. It’s been going on for 3 seasons now and the top recruits are noticing. We are barely squeaking by teams like Syracuse, Boston College, Ga Tech, Wake, etc… and people are simply OK with that. The ACC is a joke. With our player talent we should be blowing away teams in this conference. But we have coaches with absolutely ZERO experience coaching this level of football. Dabo had the opportunity to make home run hires and he took the easy/lazy/stubborn way out and here we are.
QB is the most important position on the field and our QB room is a total and utter dumpster fire. We have, what, 3 former 5 stars in that room and all of them have regressed?? Someone please explain to me how Streeter still has a job.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [895]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 455
Joined: 1/5/11
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:39 PM
|
|
Going back to Trevor a lot of talk was him throwing 50/50 balls and the WRs bailing him out on them. But Trevor could throw to a spot and give his WRs a chance to make a play on the ball.
I don't see any 50/50 balls thrown now.
Also on the WRs, in the past they would reach out and grab the ball out of the air with space between them and the ball. It seems like now the WRs are waiting for the ball to come to them instead of going after it.
Is that related to coaching or related to talent?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2702]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1452
Joined: 1/20/12
|
The problem is that the talent is NOT elite
Nov 27, 2022, 8:40 PM
|
|
I’ll elaborate once the #### show on this board has calmed down, but we don’t have the talent many believe we have. An there in lies most of our issues
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
So the top 5 recruiting classes we’ve had recently aren’t accurate?
Nov 27, 2022, 8:47 PM
|
|
Our coaches, along with all of the recruiting analysts, were wrong about them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
A recruiting analyst who sees guys basically in camps
Nov 27, 2022, 9:05 PM
|
|
could never be wrong, could they?
Coaches are wrong as well. We've been wrong in basically 2 key spots on offense, and it's shown these last 2 years
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Come on.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:03 PM
|
|
With as many eyeballs on high school football these days, with more recruiting data/film/measurables than ever, and players attending camps at record rates, the chances that most of the elite players we’ve signed the last few years have been significantly overrated is nearly zero.
A much more likely conclusion is that those guys really are super talented, and that our coaches have failed to develop that talent and/or failed to game plan to take advantage of that talent.
Blaming it on widespread recruiting misses and incorrect evaluations by our coaches and hundreds of other experts is ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10762
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Come on.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:09 PM
|
|
You’re getting so close. If it was a snake it’d bite you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10762
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: A recruiting analyst who sees guys basically in camps
Nov 27, 2022, 10:08 PM
[ in reply to A recruiting analyst who sees guys basically in camps ] |
|
Some of these recruits played zero games in the 2020-21 season. The high end was 1/2 a season with an even lower percentage of practice time than in a normal year. Did that have an effect? Our freshman and sophomores last year were our largest percentage of underclassmen on the roster since 2011. Having the team go young when those players were relatively inexperienced and poorly evaluated couldn’t be having any impact, could it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Starter [377]
TigerPulse: 82%
Posts: 537
Joined: 1/12/12
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:44 PM
|
|
Best post you’ve ever made!!! You are correct…we are not a well coached, fundamentally, disciplined team with the talent level we have…and iah…I’m not sure we are a TEAM…nit saying people are selfish or problems…but we seem to be missing a “TEAM” element at times!!! It’s like a collection of very talented individuals, each in their own way, but no one has reached their potential much less overachieved!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58367]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46308
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Yep.***
Nov 27, 2022, 8:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7555]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 8001
Joined: 6/8/05
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 8:52 PM
|
|
Well Judge Keller I have to agree with you on this one….Dabo knows how to get top talent to Clemson but his coaches ability to coach up this talent and get the best out of them has been lacking for the past 4 seasons……Don’t know exactly when this train ran off the track but it has been very obvious for the past few years with all the talent he recruits but overall underachieving when it comes game time……but at least he hit this program to the mountain top not once but twice….now your man Brad Brownlee has never even come close to getting anyone with the kind of talent to even consider coming to Clemson… his recruiting and coaching is lacking in to many areas to even discuss here……he always tries to get to the door to ask to get into the dance but nobody will ever even talk to him….and he is so far down the hill he has never even seen the mountain top……he has been saved numerous times by Dabo’s success but I am afraid those days are over now…..time for him to finally deliver or let the door hit him in the rear end on his way out!
|
|
|
|
|
|
MVP [537]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/21
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 9:02 PM
|
|
Well bama is having a down year, Ohio state too, Oklahoma had to reload. Notre Dame lost Kelly. LSU had to rebuild.
Maybe this is just college football? Maybe it's normal.
Only one on a role is UGA.
Maybe just impossible to go undefeated every year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
You were doing great until you brought up Brownell.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: What bothers me more than the losses ] |
|
Bashing Brownell is the salve that football cult members keep coming back to in a feeble attempt to make themselves feel better about an underachieving football program.
You were so close, but you gave in like a recovering alcoholic walking by a bar after a stressful day. So close!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10762
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: You were doing great until you brought up Brownell.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:10 PM
|
|
Brad Brownell’s squad is ranked 200th in RPI right now and you’re crying fake digital tears about a football program that is still in the AP top 10.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7555]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 8001
Joined: 6/8/05
|
Re: You were doing great until you brought up Brownell.
Nov 28, 2022, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to You were doing great until you brought up Brownell. ] |
|
Why you getting upset Judge…..guess like Dabo I guess I hit a nerve and the truth hurts….sorry I hurt your feelings…..ha ha!
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1534]
TigerPulse: 55%
Posts: 1325
Joined: 10/1/06
|
You are wrong your honor - we have mainly 3* star players
Nov 27, 2022, 9:01 PM
|
|
Some recruiting services ranked some of them as 4's and 5's. But, I certainly have not seen a 5* on the field this year, and only flashes of a couple of 4*'s.
Besides Trotter and BT, who would start at their position on a current top ten team. Waiting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [43989]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32915
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Our underqualified coaches have failed to develop that talent.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:10 PM
|
|
That’s why they seem like 3 star players.
Acting like our coaches are at some sort of talent disadvantage is ludicrous.
Even if we were a team of mostly 3 star players with some 4 star players mixed in, we should still beat the South Carolinas and Pitts of the world, and have no business struggling with Wake Forest and NC State.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10762
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Our underqualified coaches have failed to develop that talent.
Nov 27, 2022, 10:13 PM
|
|
If talent rankings via services like rivals is all that matters please explain the basketball loss to USuC a couple of weeks ago. There is a much bigger talent gap between Clemson and USuC in basketball this season than in football. Believe it or not USuC is a top 20 team in the 247 total talent index.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4026]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2919
Joined: 11/30/98
|
ROSTER MANAGEMENT
Nov 27, 2022, 9:19 PM
|
|
Agree Judge. I've been saying on here a very long time.....Roster Management is THE primary issue.
Lacking quality depth at certain positions is a HUGE issue, and it shouldn't be this bad at a place like Clemson. In addition, every program, including Clemson, has players that leave every year due to the portal. This has only increased. We have done very little (to date so far) to fill in the gaps left behind. We are behind the curve due to stubbornness IMO. Self-inflicted wounds IMO.
As I've said many, many times, Dabo is 100% correct that the program should be built from the HS ranks. But the world has changed and he needs to adjust, just a bit, just like he did when he finally acquiesced to allow summer OVs. 85 is a very low number to begin with.....and when we refuse to use the portal just a little bit (like BAMA or UGA does) and then couple that with not signing enough HS kids, knowing attrition is coming, we find ourselves in situations like yesterday: playing 3rd string backups in critical situations in big games which have playoff implications. I won't mention names....
The BEST CEOs evolve and Dabo has done this before and has made the tough changes before (Spence, Steele, Koening, etc...). Will he make them again is the question. Dabo made the comment a few weeks ago along the lines of "not seeing this coming"---something to that effect after ND game. I hope that was just coach-speak.... DJ is certainly an issue...no doubt, but the decline of the WR room is stunning (and not in a good way).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [785]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 567
Joined: 11/24/06
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 9:36 PM
|
|
Agree on this. Well said Judge. Especially the part about it not only being about the QB.
Not saying we should stick with DJ. He’s had more than enough chances and we’ve seen his ceiling. Fans who think if we slot in Cade or Vizzina next season, we’ll immediately look better are oversimplifying the issues at hand. I also worry for those players that is the expectation, that they can be this magic panacea for our wide range of issues on offense. What kind of offense requires a generational QB to run it?
Plenty of ways I think we’re not well coached right now we but mostly our offensive scheme is consistently bad. All these times the WR aren’t on the same page as DJ… why are our coaches making college offense this difficult? And the constant downshifting in play-calling as soon as we get a lead signals to both our players and opposition we’re playing to not lose more than we are to win. It screams lack of confidence, in the players, the scheme. How this coaching staff made our offense so difficult for either DJ (in the games) or Cade (in practice), I’ll never understand. I wish them luck, genuinely. I want our offense to succeed. I’m concerned that if the coaches think it’s just making a few tweaks and holding onto the ball, we’re in real trouble. If so, that’s a scheme with far too little margin for error for college players (even 5 stars) to run well consistently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [261]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 398
Joined: 1/1/21
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 27, 2022, 9:43 PM
|
|
I see the same things. The turnovers, dropped balls, the overthrows, the missed assignments. The Clemson players have massive talent, they just don’t have the confidence. The coordinators are in their first year but, they are not building the players confidence. The coaching is lacking right now. Is it because the coaches are new to it and don’t quite have a handle on everything they need to be coaching or are they complacent in their positions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19567]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17276
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Coordinators coordinate
Nov 28, 2022, 7:46 AM
|
|
Position coaches coach.
Our DB's were burned Saturday, but the same guys are coaching them who coached the guys who were part of shut down defenses.
Goodwin handles LB's, for the most part they've been pretty darn good, the exception at ND.
Streeter handles QB's. He's going to catch heat with the way DJ has played. But he also coached DW and TL.
It's still mostly about Jimmy's and Joe's. We lack the talent we've had in the past at QB, WR, and to a certain extent DB due to youth, and Saturday injuries and disqualification when we were down 3 safeties.
To me, WR is the glaring need. I think QB works itself out between Cade and Vizzina next year
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [593]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 549
Joined: 1/2/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3615]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 8864
Joined: 5/16/22
|
Re: What bothers me more than the losses
Nov 28, 2022, 5:21 AM
|
|
We definitely squandered a lot of talent on D.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4435]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6288
Joined: 10/26/05
|
Right now, we’re not a very good coaches team at all.
Nov 28, 2022, 9:18 AM
|
|
Spiller, Grisham, and Streeter should all be looked at going forward and reevaluated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 40
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
