Re: Well ain't that a kick in the pants

A1993Tiger®

Letterman [158]

TigerPulse: 100%

Posts: 100

Joined: 2009

Dec 30, 2024, 11:39 AM

2k® said:

Hey, @PACIFIST BEACH TIGER®, here are a few points you failed/forgot to mention. Jimmy Carter was one of the worst Presidents in history because, not in order:
Gave away the Panama Canal
Backed and then gave asylum to the Shah of Iran
This led to hostage crisis where Americans were taken hostage for 444 days
Last minute cancel of rescue attempt, leading to death of 6 American Servicemen

And the worst(in my opinion), used the Olympics as a political tool preventing American Athletes---
our kids---from competing, after years of training, because Russia did something he did not aprove of,

DUH

Agree ... JC was a weak president. Never should have given away the Panama Canal ...poor decision that served no higher-tier national interests and was not under pressure to do so. Also failed to handle the Iranian Shah's abdication and flight, subseuqent Islamic revoluation and then the taking of the US Embassy. It was largely a series of bumbling, ineffective and reactionary moves that served to emphasize weakness. I guess, that's easy to say in hindsight, and perhaps we'd have done no better, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure about the whole Olympics thing. But not sure we can say "he did not approve" of something the Russians did. No one approved of what they did ... none of us supported an invasion by Soviet forces to forcibly prop up a pro-Soviet socialists government during the height of the Cold War. Maybe you're right that the Olympics ban was a poor response, but it was not that he, and he alone, disliked the Soviet action.

Also, and importantly to military experts and historians, his cancellation of EAGLE CLAW did not "lead" to the death of servicemen. The operation itself was risky and led to their deaths. Nothing he did directly impacted that (except, I guess, he could have not approved the whole operation in the first place.) The operation was cancelled because insufficient rotary wing lift were operational at the staging area (based on military planning criteria for the go/no go decision.) The lack was due primarly to maintenance issues, although one canx was due to surface weather conditions. Military leadership in the field (operational commanders) recommended to the White House a "no go" based on the lack of adequate lift (per the planning criteria previously established by the military planners.) As they prepared to withdraw from the staging area, there was a flight accident that killed 8 (I think it was 8) troopers and airmen. That would have/could have likely happened whether they continued or withdrew, as the same aircraft were involved (with the exception of the fixed-wing transport that was on the ramp ... and may have been parked off the ramp away from the rotary-wing assets had the operation gone forward.)

The operatioanl failures with EAGLE CLAW were really results of poor inter-operability among the services. This was before US Special Operations Command (SOCOM), so equipment, planning, communications, even training, was not standardized for these types of special operations using support integrated from multiple services. There was also insufficient Army rotary-wing pilots with training/expertise in this type of mission profile in that environment. In fact, as a result of EAGLE CLAW, Congress created SOCOM to ensure poor planning, command & control, training, expertise ... and Joint integration ... did not cause a like failure again.

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your events are right, some of your facts are wrong... and no claim Carter was a good President...

Yes he "gave away" the canal, but it was in the context of a treaty. If they (Panama) do not abide by the terms of the treaty (number one being security and US passage), then the treaty is void. Allowing China to establish a presence on/near the canal are technically in violation. New Admin may take a little more pro active view of it.

The Iran sequence is distorted. The Shah was a very pro west, pro America leader. Iran was the buffer between Russia (them again) and the Persian Gulf (Oil). Shah was allies with Eisenhower / Kennedy / Johnson/ Nixon – (who signed an agreement to provide Nuclear power plants) and Carter... the Shah was however, the Shah... he spent alot of money on himsel and those close to him... the commoners were not happy... peaked in 1978 protest on Shah street where protestors were shot... opened the door for fundamentalist Islamists. Khomeini, in exile in France stoked the flames. Islamists (including students) hatched a plan to take the American Embassy (google Ebraham Asgharzadeh )... which they did. Had nothing to do with Carter (except the perceived weakness from the Americans)

Shah lost control of the country, however he was very well connected in the West (Rockefellers and Henry Kissinger of note). In January 1979 the Shah took his money and ran... in February 1979 Khomeini comes back as Supreme leader... still have hostages...

In the fall of 1979 President Carter admits the Shah into the US for medical treatment (Lymphoma).Shah was granted asylum in Panama then Egypt. (more Kissinger and Rockefeller than Carter). Carter met aggression with pacifism. He tried to trade the Shah for the hostages, Shah got wind and went to Egypt...

Desert One, aka Desert Claw. It failed because of broken equipment, the commanders recommended they abort the mission because they were below the minimum required number of helo's... President Carter agreed to abort the mission. Two of the helo's collided on departure and that is the legacy of Desert One... there was no undue impact by President Carter on the mission. It did however happen on his watch during an election year.

So there you have; "the rest of the story"...

Won't comment on the Olympic boycott...

Well ain't that a kick in the pants