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Varsity [248]
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Legend [15751]
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Exactly right.***
Aug 24, 2017, 8:33 AM
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Heisman Winner [119923]
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"Hypocrites are blind to their actions"
Aug 24, 2017, 8:56 AM
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bengaline
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CU Medallion [56241]
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There aren't statues of any of those people.
Aug 24, 2017, 9:14 AM
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I guess you could make an argument against Susan B. Anthony on currency, but that's the same as saying we should remove Jefferson from the nickel because he owned slaves, which is a slippery slope argument.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
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Varsity [248]
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CU Medallion [56241]
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Touché***
Aug 24, 2017, 9:50 AM
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Legend [15751]
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Your counter argument isn't that any statue of these
Aug 24, 2017, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to There aren't statues of any of those people. ] |
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individuals or things named after them should remain, it's that there just aren't any? So if, say, someone gave you a list of things named after the people in that article, you would join the cause to have those names removed?
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CU Medallion [56241]
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My argument is I don't buy this slippery slope crap.
Aug 24, 2017, 9:54 AM
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And I see a distinction between great people who have held some racist opinions and people who fought a war to preserve the institution of slavery. It's a matter of what's being venerated. If we start focusing on character instead of accomplishments... I don't know where to begin. Should we remove statues of MLK and rename streets because he cheated on his wife?
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Legend [15751]
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This arguement cannot be dismissed as "slippery slope". The
Aug 24, 2017, 10:12 AM
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question is simple...if racism overrules any other accomplishment in one's life and negates any chance that a person should be honored with a naming of an organization or building or a statue, then all of these people qualify.
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CU Medallion [56241]
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It absolutely can.
Aug 24, 2017, 10:21 AM
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Victor Davis Hanson is saying it starts here, but where does it end??? That's a slippery slope argument.
Racism doesn't overrule the accomplishments of someone's life. That's my point. In the case of the Confederacy, racism was intertwined with their supposed accomplishments (these are people who lost the war lol). Racism wasn't intertwined with Susan B. Anthony's accomplishments.
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Legend [15751]
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I get your argument. First, on the Slippery Slope issue...
Aug 24, 2017, 11:28 AM
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Honestly...still, no. This is getting silly. People are demanding that anyone who ever had a racist thought be removed from any building etc, and then when someone points out some liberal heroes' racism, they claim that you're just arguing a slippery slope. That's just not true. It is applying consistent logic with no extreme point made at all.
I get your argument, though, that Confederate monuments are a specific consideration. Just hope you acknowledge that, for some, it has gone well beyond General Lee.
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All-In [26968]
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The main logical leap in all this, I still don't buy....
Aug 24, 2017, 9:54 AM
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That removing monuments and things like that is "erasing history". Removing the monuments doesn't change the past at all. It does change the present.
Is there anyone who actually wants to change what is taught in history, when it comes to the Civil War? I believe that progressives would want it taught more than anyone.
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CU Medallion [56241]
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Varsity [248]
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Did you read that article?
Aug 24, 2017, 10:52 AM
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The author's arguments are specious at best.
She's pointing to the use of the passive voice as some racist conspiracy to whitewash the horrors of slavery.
Look, we agree on this issue, but this scenario is not analogous.
Message was edited by: Tiger_Stan®
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CU Medallion [56241]
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"Some slaves reported that their masters treated them
Aug 24, 2017, 10:59 AM
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kindly."
There are plenty more sources about how Texas is reinterpreting American history in public school textbooks if you don't like that one.
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Varsity [248]
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Was that an inaccurate statement?***
Aug 24, 2017, 11:00 AM
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All-In [26968]
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I'm sure they were treated kindly...
Aug 24, 2017, 11:15 AM
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Except for the fact that they, you know, owned them as property.
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110%er [5323]
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Hey, I treat my dog kindly
Aug 24, 2017, 1:54 PM
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That makes me a good person, right?
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Varsity [248]
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All-In [26968]
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Oculus Spirit [83191]
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It was about many states' rights issues, but slavery
Aug 24, 2017, 2:24 PM
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was one of these states' rights issues and the only one explosive enough to cause the country to go to war.
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Hall of Famer [23693]
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If there had been no slavery, that war would not have been
Aug 24, 2017, 5:20 PM
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fought. Conversely, if there had been no secession, that particular war would not have been fought. Another war about slavery, later? Perhaps. Another test of secession? The question keeps coming up, not realizing the question has already been answered.
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All-In [28802]
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Uh, yes they are
Aug 24, 2017, 5:53 PM
[ in reply to People changing what is taught in history class... ] |
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A lot of that is just a reaction to revisionary histories. But, in fact, people are always going to tell their own version of history. As long as it's not patently false, we should just recognize that historical narratives are contestable and there are other ways of telling our stories than just the one you like.
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Oculus Spirit [83191]
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All-In [28802]
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Isn't that phrase just metaphorical?
Aug 24, 2017, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to The main logical leap in all this, I still don't buy.... ] |
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I thought I agree with you and others who found that phrase to be hyperbolic, but then after reading some other perspectives, I think it's pretty apt. It's not that people are going out and preventing people from researching history or history from being taught. It may be the case, though, that the fervor for removing all this stuff from public view actually is changing the acceptable range of views of history.
By making these people out to be absolute villains with no redeeming qualities, who nobody reasonable would want to honor, you're promoting a very simplistic version of history that largely ignores the way people felt about these figures during their lives and soon after their deaths. Lee, for instance, was highly revered- even by northerners- during his life and soon after his death. A former Union Brigadier General, the great grandson of John Quincy Adams, gave a speech on the centennial of Lee's birth calling for a "permanent memorial" to Lee to be put up in DC. So removing these pieces from public at least obscures that history, and at worst, leads to the kind of situation where that history gets functionally "erased" because it's too controversial to teach.
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Hall of Famer [22408]
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Wasn't that the purpose of the monuments in the first place?***
Aug 24, 2017, 10:23 AM
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Varsity [248]
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Re: Wasn't that the purpose of the monuments in the first place?***
Aug 24, 2017, 10:59 AM
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Heisman Winner [112030]
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Re: Cleansing the past is a dangerous business
Aug 24, 2017, 12:36 PM
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cleansing the past, you mean like pretending you never posted here before?
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All-In [28802]
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Yeah, I thought this was a pretty good piece
Aug 24, 2017, 5:51 PM
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A lot of the former Confederates and others now considered unworthy of honor by some were highly accomplished people, and considered to be great gentlemen who ought to be emulated by people of their time. They may have made various mistakes which look worse today than they did at the time, but what some people seem to forget is that many progressive heroes and other less controversial figures also participated in some things we'd find pretty awful today. But we seem to ignore that stuff because we want to remember the better things about them. I don't know why we can't do that for people like Lee, Jackson, Columbus, etc.
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