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Ring of Honor [21660]
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Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 9:24 AM
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TLDR Version: The more I watch Tua Tagovailoa, the more convinced I am he's Tajh Boyd. I'm also convinced he's hurt, maybe badly hurt.
Deshaun Watson made people forget how good Tajh Boyd was...but Tajh Boyd was really, really good. He completed 64.3% of his passes and threw for 11,904 yards and 107 TD's against just 39 INT's...and he also added another 1,165 yards rushing and 26 TD's with his feet. When it wasn't there through the air, he could pull it down and hurt you badly with his feet.
Tua's a bit more accurate - 66.8% - and he's thrown an impressive 27 TD's this season against only one pick - but if you look at the size/weight/build, he's actually very similar to Tajh: stocky, powerful, about 6'1". (They list Tua at 6'2" but he's never quite looked it and I think the NFL Combine measurements will show that.)
Tajh had two main weaknesses, and they cost him in the NFL: his accuracy on short and especially intermediate routes, and his ability to go through a structured progression. I think Tua is pretty much exactly the same.
Against LSU last night: exactly like Tajh Boyd, Tua showed that rare, rare deep ball...and he struggled with his accuracy and placement with the intermediate routes, especially when under duress. I was surprised how many balls he had sail on him in particular. LSU didn't have much of a pass-rush (especially compared to Clemson) but they were still able to affect him at times with the blitz, and Tua's stats fell: 25 of 42 (59.5%) and only 295 yards, 2 TD's...and his first pick of the year. And while LSU had to pressure via blitzes, they were able to man up - they have a very impressive secondary if not an impressive pass-rush - and it did suggest a pretty good road map of how to slow Tua down.
You might remember, the worst loss Tajh Boyd took - well, aside from a certain Orange Bowl debacle - was that 51-14 beatdown that Famous Jameis and FSU put on us in the Valley in 2013. In that game, Boyd, who I still consider the most gifted and prolific deep-ball thrower in Clemson history (yes, he was even better at that aspect of the game than Deshaun Watson was), was largely held in check by FSU's elite secondary, and affected badly by FSU's pass-rush...the Noles didn't silence Boyd entirely, but they did hold him to 17-of-37 (just a 46% completion percentage) and just 156 yards throwing, and just 1 TD against two INT's. The Noles harried and harassed Boyd all night, and had the DB's to actually run with Sammy Watkins/Martavis Bryant/Mike Williams...and they thumped us. Badly.
The more I watcheded Tua against LSU - particularly after he came up lame after running for a TD and then handed it off 90% of the time thereafter - the more convinced I got that exactly like Tajh Boyd, Tua is mortal, especially if you have the DB's to keep his very fast WR's from taking the top off your secondary. LSU just had zero passing game and came in with the 85th-ranked offense in the country and couldn't move the ball or score...if they had, Alabama could have been in trouble. Keep in mind also, Tua's #1 WR, Jerry Jeudy, is lightning-fast...but he is not a big guy, and isn't going to win 1-on-1 jump balls. He does verts and he does crossing routes, jump balls are not his thing.
No, Tua has his limitations...and he has a bad knee to boot and Alabama knows it full well, and is trying to hide it. Again, watch the tape: after he scrambled for a TD in the third, Tua barely threw again, and seemed to have a hard time putting any weight and driving off his leg even when he did. It didn't matter by that point because the game was decided and Alabama went to eat-the-clock grind-it-out mode, but Tua was done as an effective force. I think if you harry and harass him and don't let him linger in the pocket, if you take away his deep ball and cheap stuff like crossing routes, which he hits very well, I think he struggles exactly like Tajh did...if his knee doesn't give out first. I'm not even 100% Tua even makes it to the playoffs; I think Bama is playing with fire, letting him play on that knee.
FWIW. But I suspect future events will bear me out on this. And I certainly don't think Tua is the invincible complete player he is perceived as. Like I said: I think he's Tajh Boyd, and he might even be Tajh Boyd playing on a bad MCL or ACL.
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 9:30 AM
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The comparison isn’t far off actually. Boyd was great in part due to throwing to legit top level NFL talent while at Clemson. Similarly Bama’s receivers are great across the board this year and Tua has all game to decide which one to throw to. He is fearless because of all the talent around him to back him up. Which is a good thing. But he isn’t this inhuman cyborg that has a sure fire future in the NFL.
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Trainer [43]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 5, 2018, 7:10 PM
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TL could easily pass him in TDs IF the coaches let him pass like he did againt FL or if he would be allowed to play a FULL game!
Had he not been sharing reps from the beginning I have no doubt he would have more TDs tham Tua.
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Trainer [43]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 5, 2018, 7:11 PM
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I've watched TL play since he was a freahman, he is better than Tua.
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 5, 2018, 9:14 PM
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We all have he is a fret and he has problems with the long ball aka Bryant
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 6, 2018, 10:16 AM
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Right now, he's average on the intermediate and deep throws (several because of his speed and WR's dropping them due to it), some on him putting too much on the ball...but he's still with all that better than KB was.
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Legend [6629]
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I think he has a bad ACL
Nov 4, 2018, 9:31 AM
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Just like Deshaun played one game on a torn ACL, I think Bama is having Tua play the entire season with one.
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TigerNet Icon [153228]
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Admittedly, I only read the TL;DR version...
Nov 4, 2018, 9:33 AM
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but I think he is careless with the ball at times, both throwing, and while running/eluding. I also agree that he has an injury, and it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
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Tiger Titan [46090]
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He definitely looks human and
Nov 4, 2018, 9:36 AM
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Bama looks beatable. However, and I know who they have played, I believe their defense is still a force to be reckoned with. Our OL holds the key to a Clemson national championship. If they can protect Trevor from Bama’s front seven we win. No doubt about it.
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Paw Master [16842]
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Tua with better pass protection....
Nov 4, 2018, 9:39 AM
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We really had O-line issues many a FB season. Perhaps scrambling ability helps to neutralize that.
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Orange Blooded [2723]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 9:53 AM
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Lol. You said...
“I think if you harry and harass him and don't let him linger in the pocket, if you take away his deep ball and cheap stuff like crossing routes, which he hits very well, I think he struggles exactly like Tajh did.” You also said he will struggle if the defense doesn’t let his receivers get loose and take away the deep stuff.
Ummmm..... wouldn’t Tom Brady struggle in this situation? Wouldn’t Aaron Rodgers? DW4? Freakin Joe Montana? I mean every DC in the country wants their d to play like that, every game. It’s just not that easy. Tua will play in the nfl. I don’t think that’s even debatable for most people. That’s something tajh really never came close to doing. I love tajh and what he did for clemson, but tua is night and day a better qb.
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Ring of Honor [21660]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:04 AM
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Lol. You said...
“I think if you harry and harass him and don't let him linger in the pocket, if you take away his deep ball and cheap stuff like crossing routes, which he hits very well, I think he struggles exactly like Tajh did.” You also said he will struggle if the defense doesn’t let his receivers get loose and take away the deep stuff.
Ummmm..... wouldn’t Tom Brady struggle in this situation? Wouldn’t Aaron Rodgers? DW4? Freakin Joe Montana? I mean every DC in the country wants their d to play like that, every game. It’s just not that easy. Tua will play in the nfl. I don’t think that’s even debatable for most people. That’s something tajh really never came close to doing. I love tajh and what he did for clemson, but tua is night and day a better qb.
Not really. You didn't want to blitz DW4 because he made you pay for it, and oftentimes, it seemed like his best attribute was to elude pressure and create on the move, either with his arm or his feet. He threw well on the move, Boyd didn't...and Tua doesn't seem to either. He could go through a progression one-two-three - watch his head on film - whereas Boyd locked onto his primary, and if his first read wasn't there, he'd pull it down and get it done with his feet, he rarely worked his progression. Tua seems similar as well.
Tua may well play in the NFL...but I still think he has the same limitations Tajh Boyd did, and he could well end up being one of those guys who was an elite college player whose skillset may actually not translate as well as most would expect to the League.
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Orange Blooded [2340]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:43 AM
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From what I've seen earlier in the year, Tua does have the ability to throw well on the move. He's made some incredible passes under duress this year, but most of them came earlier in the season before his knee was banged up.
It really comes down to just how serious the injury is. It appears to be a structural issue that involves lateral motion given that he is still able to run well in a straight line. If it is minor enough that it can heal in the December break, then he could very well regain his accuracy on the run.
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Rival Killer [2895]
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I’m with you... I saw Tua flash into the endzone -
Nov 5, 2018, 12:42 PM
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Separating himself from LSU DBs... then I saw him reach for his knee. I agree his knee is hurt, but he sure can run fast as lightning in a straight line... we shall see.
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Paw Warrior [4697]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel ] |
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Tua also rushed for 50 last night with a broken wheel. Under pressure, he WILL run. And given more than 2 seconds in the pocket, he will laser beam your secondary to death. Tua is as good as advertised. That broken wheel though? That’s his only limiting factor. And with their remaining schedule, I’d like to think it’s a huge concern for Saban and crew, especially with Jalen Hurts barely able to walk.
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CU Guru [1898]
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Paw Master [16637]
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Re: I'm sure Tua is enjoying reading all of this.
Nov 5, 2018, 9:50 PM
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If he's hurt, he is hurt. Doesn't matter what they read.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102949]
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All of those pros you mentioned could check down instead...
Nov 4, 2018, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel ] |
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of focusing on one receiver. Tutu can't check down. He watches his primary receiver and turns immediately to his last resort. That waste several options.
Tajh did that and so did KB though Tajh and KB's first checkdown was to run the ball. DW would sting your butt if you left a WR uncovered. He didn't always look at all his receivers because he had such a fine ability to hit a window which allowed him to take the first reasonable option.
BTW, Tutu will never start in the NFL unless a team gets down to their last man at the position.
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TigerNet Champion [121310]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:00 AM
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he looks more like Russel Wilson with a bad wheel to me.
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Ring of Honor [21660]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:08 AM
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he looks more like Russel Wilson with a bad wheel to me.
I hope not. But again, Wilson's got some freaky touch on the short-and-intermediate stuff, and will drive you crazy with his ability to scramble and then find the open guy, whereas stuff seemed to be sailing on Tua when he got out of the pocket and had to move at all. Which maybe is related to the knee and not being able to plant on it...but even if so, it's not something that's likely to get better in 2018. Or even January of 2019.
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CU Medallion [18200]
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Oculus Spirit [42282]
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I agree, a lot of his passes seem like he’s just slinging it.
Nov 4, 2018, 10:01 AM
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He has some outstanding receivers that can fight for, go up and get balls. They make him look better. As others mentioned, his ol gives him a lot of time to run. You have to have some great dB play and our line has to pressure him. I think we can do that. No way I can guarantee a win but our offense also makes LSU look ridiculous (not a good ridiculous)
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Commissioner [992]
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Re: Tua
Nov 4, 2018, 10:10 AM
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has the best OL (and they get to hold often), great WRs; and he is very good.
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Oculus Spirit [42600]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:08 AM
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Always enjoy reading your analysis. The whole thing. Thumbs up.
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Rival Killer [2820]
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I think the key is going to be based on what
Nov 4, 2018, 10:10 AM
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one of the commentators said last night. He is pre-reading everything before the snap, predetermining who he is throwing to. If Venables has four weeks to game plan for that, he likely will find disguised coverages that will make Tua's life miserable.
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Athletic Dir [1163]
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Re: I think the key is going to be based on what
Nov 4, 2018, 10:17 AM
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Since we will meet in the championship game, Venables will have a week to prep.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: I think the key is going to be based on what
Nov 4, 2018, 3:03 PM
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I assure you GA’s are already well into studying film.
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All-TigerNet [6074]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:27 AM
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I think if you harry and harass him and don't let him linger in the pocket, if you take away his deep ball and cheap stuff like crossing routes, which he hits very well, I think he struggles exactly like Tajh did...if his knee doesn't give out first.
That's exactly how I think we can beat them...... constant pressure on Tua and tight coverage on deep balls and crossing/seam routes. Keep everything in front of us, with a big effort to jump routes.
The big question might be how much of that pressure we can bring while playing nickel/dime, which we might need to shut down their passing routes..... and can we do that and still handle their run game. I suspect we'll see some exotic blitz packages.
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All-In [10856]
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I agree with this. we have to blitz and stunt
Nov 4, 2018, 1:30 PM
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And mentally overwhelm Bama's OL
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Game Changer [1977]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 2:23 PM
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No, no, good Lord no. Tua has proven that he shines on the biggest of stages when their are still high implications. Tajh had a bad habit of crumbling in those games where we had something to play for
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Ultimate Tiger [34272]
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Really? How bout LSU, UGA, and Ohio State? Get a grip man***
Nov 4, 2018, 3:36 PM
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Game Changer [1977]
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Re: Really? How bout LSU, UGA, and Ohio State? Get a grip man***
Nov 5, 2018, 5:36 AM
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The UGA game was the only game where there were still implications for the rest of the season. LSU and OSU the season was over, there was no pressure it was just a football game. Tajh was good, but the skill position talent around him was absolutely crazy.
Tajh couldn't ever get past Scar or FSU when they were Big match ups and when we still had a lot to play for. He wasn't the guy to make the play in those kind of games. Tua came in at half time and led his team to a comeback natty win. There's no comparison
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CU Medallion [18200]
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CU Guru [1251]
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All I Know Is
Nov 4, 2018, 2:41 PM
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That I'd love to have Alabama's offensive line. Clemson coaching staff GOYA!
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Rival Killer [2772]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 4:05 PM
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He throw's a much better deep ball than Boyd did.
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Rival Killer [2780]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 4:12 PM
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Everyone is missing the obvious. Hes going to win the heisman....no way he wins the NC. ??????
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Walk-On [102]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 6:07 PM
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When was the last time the Heisman winner also won the NC? It's been a while. Tebow, of course.... (and don't get me started on THAT guy).... DW4 SHOULD have, if the committee had actually done their job.....
Alabama as this unstoppable invincible force (according to the media) is probably the best thing for us (or any team trying to beat them). I know Saban tries to protect his team from "rat poison" but you know all this "greatest Alabama team ever" talk has to seep in. Tua definitely looked human last night, which is a good thing. My concern is how well our D can protect TL... Tua could have a lousy game but AL might still bottle up our offense. That said, if our D makes contact with Tua enough times, that knee's gonna become a real factor, and we have an excellent shot.
But as someone who watched Tajh crumble under the pressure of big games (not ALL of them, thankfully).... Tua is quite a bit better than Boyd, or has a stronger supporting cast around him, or both.
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CU Guru [1573]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:38 PM
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When was the last time the Heisman winner also won the NC? It's been a while. Tebow, of course.... (and don't get me started on THAT guy).... DW4 SHOULD have, if the committee had actually done their job.....
Alabama as this unstoppable invincible force (according to the media) is probably the best thing for us (or any team trying to beat them). I know Saban tries to protect his team from "rat poison" but you know all this "greatest Alabama team ever" talk has to seep in. Tua definitely looked human last night, which is a good thing. My concern is how well our D can protect TL... Tua could have a lousy game but AL might still bottle up our offense. That said, if our D makes contact with Tua enough times, that knee's gonna become a real factor, and we have an excellent shot.
But as someone who watched Tajh crumble under the pressure of big games (not ALL of them, thankfully).... Tua is quite a bit better than Boyd, or has a stronger supporting cast around him, or both.
When was the last time the Heisman winner also won the NC? It's been a while. Tebow, of course.... (and don't get me started on THAT guy).... DW4 SHOULD have, if the committee had actually done their job.....
It actually has happened quite often in last 25 years. Most recently, Derrick Henry won the Heisman in 2015, and his team won the National Title as well. Before that, Jameis Winston won it two years prior, and he also won the National Title. In 2010, Cam Newton did both at Auburn, and the year prior, Mark Ingram did it at Alabama. Matt Lienert did it both for USC in 2004, and Charles Woodson did both at Michigan in 1997. The year prior to that, Danny Weurffel did both for Florida, and Charlie Ward did both for Florida State in 1993. And, oddly enough the year Tebow actually won the Heisman, he didnt Win a National Title. He won the National Title in 2008, the year after he won the Heisman.
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Orange Blooded [2273]
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Ha!***
Nov 4, 2018, 4:51 PM
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Orange Beast [6316]
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Re: Ha!***
Nov 4, 2018, 6:55 PM
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If UGA or Clemson can put pressure on him and make him run lateral a lot then we will see how his knee will hold up especially if he takes some hits and I'm not talking about trying to take him out hits just some good hits like sacks or as he's throwing it type stuff.
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CU Guru [1350]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 9:35 PM
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I think Tua's injury is far worse than it appears, and that will become more evident during the remainder of the season. Finebaum almost went there when discussing the LSU matchup with his colleagues Thursday. He loves to allude to the inside information he can't share.
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Clemson Conqueror [11117]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:05 PM
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I agree. Remember when his parents were called to the injury tent earlier in the year? I think that was when he tore his ACL. Almost like they had to get the parents permission to allow him to continue to play. I personally feel he will be out before the season is over. Notice he didn't do any juking just straight line running.
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Clemson Conqueror [11758]
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Paw Warrior [5095]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 10:44 PM
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Didn’t the majority of Tajh Boyd’s stats come on YAC? I swear I saw a stat one time that the vast majority of his throws were short yardage.
Do you have some numbers to back up the claim that he’s the best deep ball thrower in Clemson history? Not saying you’re wrong, just curious.
Unfortunately my memory of Tajh is big numbers against weak opponents and choking on the big stage. And then of course there was this....
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All-In [10856]
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DW4 was the best deep ball thrower up to this point
Nov 4, 2018, 10:59 PM
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Especially his junior year. I don't need to look up stats, I'm willing to bet my house on it.
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CU Medallion [18200]
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you're on crack***
Nov 4, 2018, 11:16 PM
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Team Captain [470]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 4, 2018, 11:29 PM
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Tua might be tahj, but I got believe Boyd would have a lot more hardware had he had a Venables recruited and coached defense around him.
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All-American [574]
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 5, 2018, 1:54 AM
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Actually, what makes Tua good. It all boils down to their OC. Tua is good at getting the ball out of his hands quickly. He makes good pre snap reads. If you want to slow that down. You have to play bump and run coverage and put a spy on him. Make him hold onto the ball longer. Then the D Line can corral him.
Go Tigers!
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Varsity [116]
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I’ll have to disagree on this one
Nov 5, 2018, 12:21 PM
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I always enjoy your posts, Q, and rarely disagree but I think Tua is different than TB in several ways. He’s more accurate overall (though you’re right, TB did throw the best deep ball) and makes great decisions with the ball. His TD/INT ratio is too good to attribute to the system or his WRs.
When healthy Tua is a great playmaker and responds very well to pressure. He’s more like DW in that way - none of the “deer in headlights” stuff that TB would occasionally get.
Also Tua is not the battering ram runner that TB was.
Bottom line - I don’t think anyone, including us, beats Bama with a healthy Tua. But he doesn’t appear to be healthy and he’s about to face two nasty D-lines in MSU and Auburn.
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Rock Defender [62]
TigerPulse: 37%
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Why do we do this to ourselves everyday???
Nov 5, 2018, 12:53 PM
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###? Tahj missed out on getting paid in the NFL for listening to Dabo and not turning pro after beating LSU. He came back and got exposed and had too much bad tape on him. He was a system QB that didnt know how to read defenses. It was all timing based and his senior year proved to be his downfall for the NFL.
Tua is a the QB for the defending national champions and is leading the #1 team again. Tahj did neither of those, and Tahj had better if not the best WRs in all college football history. Watkins, Nuk, Bryant.....name a more talented WR group from any year. Tua
Anyways, I am smart enough to know that our road to another ring needs to bypass Bama. I hope they lose and dont get in CFP. These threads coming up with angles on how we are better than them are sad and way to far away from reality.
When did Tahj ever have a 27/1 TD/Int ratio?
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Game Changer [1898]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Why do we do this to ourselves everyday???
Nov 5, 2018, 3:44 PM
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The only team that can beat Alabama is Clemson. I think the tigers have a good chance of beating the tide. They are not invincible. Tua accuracy has been off lately maybe due to his knee problem, however I think he is better than Boyd. When pressured Tua passes tend to sail on him. He will face good competition here on out. We will see.
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CU Medallion [18200]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Posts: 28128
Joined: 2003
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Orange Blooded [2111]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Tua reminds me of Johnny football***
Nov 5, 2018, 2:21 PM
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National Champion [7201]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 10936
Joined: 2003
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Re: Tua is basically Tajh Boyd...and he has a bad wheel
Nov 5, 2018, 5:25 PM
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Tua is not as good a runner.
Tua is much more accurate.
Tua does not flush early.
So far, Tua has not choked in big games. I like Tajh, but his nerves got him in big games. Spurrier got in his head so bad it was pitiful.
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