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Offensive Star [318]
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If Tariffs carry on for a long time
Apr 3, 2025, 9:47 AM
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You will see dividends slashed or totally abandoned. That set the market up for another leg down, it will be hard to justify said dividends when you a'int making money.
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Valley Legend [12667]
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I can only hope all this nonsense is to get everyone to look at tariffs...
Apr 3, 2025, 10:01 AM
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For instance, the US doesn't sell many cars in Europe because EU has a 10% tariff. The US only has a 2.5% tariff on EU cars.
Also, my buddy in finance thinks this is all being done to crater the economy, to get UE back to 5%+ which will allow the Fed to significantly cut rates and then economy booms after 6-9 ###### months. YMMV.
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Clemson Sports Icon [52185]
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Yeah I'm hoping this is the 4d chess everyone talks about.
Apr 3, 2025, 10:05 AM
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that in a couple of really bad quarters, we are back to low interest rates. Or all of the world leaders sit down and go, ok what if we get rid of all of these tariffs? Idk something like that.
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Offensive Star [318]
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Re: Yeah I'm hoping this is the 4d chess everyone talks about.
Apr 3, 2025, 10:08 AM
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Ideally there would be zero tariffs on anything anywhere. DO we get there, who knows. We propped up Harley Davidson and Light Trucks in the USA for decades with tariffs on motorcycles over 1000cc and 25% duty on light trucks.
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Offensive Star [318]
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Ring of Honor [22047]
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Inflation will rise faster than unemployment.
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Apr 3, 2025, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to I can only hope all this nonsense is to get everyone to look at tariffs... ] |
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Fed will not be able to significantly cut rates in short term. Autos and home prices will increase due to tariffs / inflation decreasing demand. Unemployment will be trailing indicator.
Good luck on the “boom”, greater probability of stagflation and recession.
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Paw Master [17977]
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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This is about giving House and Senate Republicans political cover for tax cuts
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Apr 3, 2025, 10:09 AM
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that they know will further explode deficits and debt.
First, pretend DOGE is significantly reducing government spending and increasing efficiency. Second, pretend the tariffs you will be implementing will dramatically raise federal tax revenue primarily on the backs of foreigners without actually raising prices for American consumers, as Trump has suggested.
Third, pass tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and corporations.
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Valley Legend [12667]
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Most of these tariffs wont do anything for revenue...
Apr 3, 2025, 10:21 AM
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They should bolster domestic products and labor, which raises revenue through income and sales tax.
I can't speak to many of them, but I do follow the auto industry pretty well.
Europe doesn't buy American cars because they are expensive due to the 10% tariff. They buy European brands instead. And then on the flip side, Detroit's Big 2 plus Dodge (foreign owned) gets a serious break on their profit center of pick up trucks since we tariff outside trucks 25%. This is also why the Tundra is built in Texas.
I can only hope this makes everyone rethink their tariffs and ultimately they go away and/or are reduced or made even. We raise EU car tariffs to 10%, then VW/Audi/BMW/etc. pressure EU to drop their 10% and then we reciprocate.
But what do I know, Trump could just implode the whole country and the DOW goes back to 10,000 and we're all proper ######.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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We know. That's why Trump will pretend that it does, as he has said many times
Apr 3, 2025, 10:38 AM
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before.
Prices will rise while the economy slows and the Fed will have no arrows in its quiver to address them.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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I certainly don't like or agree with a lot of things Trump says or does.
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Apr 3, 2025, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to This is about giving House and Senate Republicans political cover for tax cuts ] |
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I have a lot of questions and concerns about his thoughts and actions regarding the economy, including tariffs. But the idea that Trump is doing this (or anything) just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people is roll-in-the-floor laughable. It's just childish partisan nonsense, in my very humble opinion.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Then you aren't paying attention to what Trump has been telling us.
Apr 3, 2025, 10:35 AM
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This is what Trump said yesterday:
Trump talked about how the US, for so long, was a tariff country raking in lots of tariff money.
"Then in 1913 for reasons unknown to mankind they established the income tax so that citizens instead of foreign countries would start paying the money necessary to run our govt.
Then in 1929 it all came to a very abrupt end with The Great Depression. And it would have never happened if they had stayed with the tariff policy, it would have been a much different story. They tried to bring back tariffs to save our country but it was gone. It was gone. It was too late. Nothing could have been done. Took years and years to get out of that depression." - Donald Trump.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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I'm pretty sure that's not it.
Apr 3, 2025, 10:42 AM
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I think you are a very intelligent, well informed citizen. So am I. I think the difference is that you are committed to a side (anti-Trump) which is so emotional and consuming that it clouds your judgement and objectivity.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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That's not an argument against any of my points. You aren't paying attention
Apr 3, 2025, 10:46 AM
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to what Trump is telling us.
The first two points I made are already happening. The third, the tax cut is coming. Are you suggesting that there isn't a plan to reduce taxes for the wealthiest and corporations?
What specifically are you disagreeing with?
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Re: That's not an argument against any of my points. You aren't paying attention
Apr 3, 2025, 10:55 AM
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But the idea that Trump is doing this (or anything) just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people is roll-in-the-floor laughable.
To be clear, the idea that Trump has disdain for working-class people, and is actively, consciously trying to help other rich people like himself, knowing or not caring that it hurts the non-wealthy people, is conjecture on your part, based on your own powerful hate for Trump.
If Trump is indeed doing things that benefit the wealthy and corporations, it does not follow that the reason he's doing it is because of his disdain or disrespect for the working class.
Now, if that is not what you believe or what you are saying, then I am sorry I have misunderstood.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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It is a very direct, straightforward argument against your point that
Apr 3, 2025, 10:59 AM
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I'm not paying attention. I am, and I disagree.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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I based it off of this:
Apr 3, 2025, 11:18 AM
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Second, pretend the tariffs you will be implementing will dramatically raise federal tax revenue primarily on the backs of foreigners without actually raising prices for American consumers, as Trump has suggested.
Third, pass tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and corporations.
It is purely my impression, my opinion from that, that you believe Trump did not care about the average consumer, and was doing a favor for the wealthy at their expense. Again . . .
Now, if that is not what you believe or what you are saying, then I am sorry I have misunderstood.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Nope. That is a straw man. The reason you attach is your own conclusion
Apr 3, 2025, 11:24 AM
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but has nothing to do with what I stated.
Trump has been saying for years what he thinks about tariffs and income taxes and the golden age of high tariffs and no income taxes. As I quoted him above, he explained yesterday his thinking on the subject. I would encourage you to read his statement and understand what he is saying there.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Nope. It was a direct response to what you stated - at least part of it.
Apr 3, 2025, 12:08 PM
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It's just not a response you like.
You stated: Second, pretend the tariffs you will be implementing will dramatically raise federal tax revenue primarily on the backs of foreigners without actually raising prices for American consumers, as Trump has suggested.
Third, pass tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and corporations.
To which I responded:But the idea that Trump is doing this (or anything) just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people is roll-in-the-floor laughable. It's just childish partisan nonsense, in my very humble opinion.
Of course it was based on my understanding of what you said. Just as everybody's who's being honest is responding based on their understanding and interpretation. In this case, based on what you stated, I think you believe that Trump has disdain or indifference toward working class Americans, and wants to help wealthy people like himself whom he respects.
Again, I'm directly responding to what you stated, based on my understanding of what you meant. If you don't believe Trump has disdain or disregard for the working class in favor of the wealthy, then just say so. That's what I'm addressing.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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I see. You point is that I have to deny something I never said. Okay.
Apr 3, 2025, 12:34 PM
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I don't know if Trump has, as you suggest, disdain for the working man. That had nothing to do with my point about Trump's statements about his love of tariffs and disdain for income taxes. You can believe whatever you like.
You completely missed the point of what I said(on purpose?) and made up a different point to argue against.
That is called a straw man.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Wrong again. Or still wrong.
Apr 3, 2025, 12:54 PM
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I directly responded to what I understood to be part of your premise, per your words. I went on to apologize if I had misunderstood, and asked for clarification. I thank you for doing that. That was not a strawman; I was responding directly to what I thought you were saying.
Yes, I agree, and always have been aware that Trump liked tariffs and planned to use them, and that he hated income taxes.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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It was never "per my words." It was entirely a fabrication on your part so that
Apr 3, 2025, 1:22 PM
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you could say this...
"But the idea that Trump is doing this (or anything) just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people is roll-in-the-floor laughable. It's just childish partisan nonsense, in my very humble opinion."
That's not a simple "misunderstanding" or "humble opinion."
That is a straw man.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Boy, you're wrong a lot. Almost proud of it.
Apr 3, 2025, 1:58 PM
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A strawman is something designed to distract or redidirect, to avoid. I have already demonstrated that I did none of that, and showed that I was responding to your words, as I understood them. You keep ignoring that. I have admitted that I may have misunderstood, that my interpretation may have been wrong, and apologized if that's the case. I'm accepting your explanation and clarification.
You, on the other hand, have done none of that.
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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I wasn't wrong about anything so there is nothing for me to admit or apologize
Apr 3, 2025, 2:14 PM
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for.
You seem unable to simply admit you were wrong without continuing to attack me personally for a strawman you created.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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You're wrong about that. Still.***
Apr 3, 2025, 2:40 PM
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Show me the strawman here
Apr 3, 2025, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to I wasn't wrong about anything so there is nothing for me to admit or apologize ] |
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Second, pretend the tariffs you will be implementing will dramatically raise federal tax revenue primarily on the backs of foreigners without actually raising prices for American consumers, as Trump has suggested.
Third, pass tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and corporations.
It is purely my impression, my opinion from that, that you believe Trump did not care about the average consumer, and was doing a favor for the wealthy at their expense. Again . . .
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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"Show me where I said 'the reason he's doing it is because of his disdain or
Apr 4, 2025, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to You are creating a straw man. ] |
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disrespect for the working class.' "
Well, there's this:
ME: But the idea that Trump is doing this (or anything) just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people is roll-in-the-floor laughable. It's just childish partisan nonsense, in my very humble opinion.
YOUR RESPONSE: Then you aren't paying attention to what Trump has been telling us.
So, by your own words you think that if I were paying attention, I would realize that Trump is indeed doing this just to help rich people and corporations at the expense of working class people. I mean, that came directly from you. That certainly implies a disdain or disrespect for the working class. That is not a straw man on my part.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Oh. Okay.
Apr 3, 2025, 10:47 AM
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Sit tight.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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If you pay the same tax rate next year that you pay this year...
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Apr 3, 2025, 11:16 AM
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(all else equal) did you get a tax cut?
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Orange Elite [5411]
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By your logic, if you received a Tax cut in 2018
Apr 3, 2025, 11:20 AM
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you didn't get a tax cut in 2019 even though the bill that set your tax rate was named "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act"
You're playing a semantics game and not one of legitimate logic.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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Read it 3 times...still...huh? Want to reword that?***
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Apr 3, 2025, 11:29 AM
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Orange Elite [5411]
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It's ok, you've never shown yourself as someone willing to admit they're wrong
Apr 3, 2025, 11:33 AM
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But a tax cut doesn't require you to pay lower taxes every year, it requires you to pay less than you would have paid but for the tax cut.
You may fool @Catahoula® but your pro-Trump policies shine through to anyone with a brain.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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I admit I'm wrong, when I'm wrong...
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Apr 3, 2025, 12:03 PM
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you just have yet to experience that....because I'm not wrong!
I never said a tax cut requires lower taxes every year. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
I asked you a simple question. If you pay the same tax rate next year as you pay this year, did a tax cut happen? I speaking to one specific period of change.
And you can just stop trying to prove that I'm a Trump fan...talk about not being able to admit when you're wrong. Good lawd.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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I've already explained why this is foolish logic
Apr 3, 2025, 12:26 PM
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but you just either can't comprehend why you're wrong or you just can't admit you're wrong.
Not sure which one is worse in this scenario.
Either way you're objectively wrong.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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No, you didn't. And you have yet to answer the simple question ..
Apr 3, 2025, 12:30 PM
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If your tax rate doesn't change, did you get a tax cut?
It's very simple
I'll make it more simple:
If your effective tax rate is 20% before the bill and remains at 20% after the bill...was there a tax cut?
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Orange Elite [5411]
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You clearly don't understand if it is "simple"
Apr 3, 2025, 12:39 PM
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Yes. The same way if my effective tax rate in 2017 was 24% and in 2018 it was 20% and 2019 it was 20%, I received a tax cut in 2019.
Arguing extending a tax cut isn't a tax cut is literally an argument a child would make.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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seriously...what the heck are you talking about?...
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Apr 3, 2025, 12:51 PM
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tell you what...I'm wasting my time discussing anything with you because you're either extremely obtuse or an idiot. Either way, what's the point?
So you can can post that you "won" and how I'm a "trump supporter" and the most of the rest of the board will laugh at you.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Look at someone trying to change the subject to avoid admitting they're wrong
Apr 3, 2025, 12:58 PM
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This is just like the time you posted a link proving you were wrong and still tried to deny it. 
Seems to be a trend with you.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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There was a tax cut in 2018 from the previous year (2017). The next year, 2019
Apr 3, 2025, 2:15 PM
[ in reply to You clearly don't understand if it is "simple" ] |
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the rate remained the same as the year before (2018); there was no cut made in 2019.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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You don't really believe that
Apr 3, 2025, 2:40 PM
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the same way you wouldn't believe tax hikes are only valid in their first year.
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Orange Immortal [64964]
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I make no claim whatsoever regarding "valitdity". I am only stating when
Apr 3, 2025, 7:07 PM
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the tax cuts took place in the given example. A tax cuts was made in 2018. There was not another tax cut made in 2019. That is all I am saying, and it's not debatable. Now, if you are claiming that the 2018 cut is still in effect in 2019, then you are correct; but those are two very different claims.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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This is precisely while this is a dumb semantics argument
Apr 4, 2025, 1:11 PM
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and no real logic behind your argument.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Yeah we are headed toward Dark Times
Apr 3, 2025, 2:40 PM
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because people like Trump and Flow0440 think we should be cutting taxes on the rich and paying for them through taxes on the poor.
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Offensive Star [318]
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Re: Yeah we are headed toward Dark Times
Apr 3, 2025, 6:13 PM
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JFC, the top rate was cut 2 frigging percent! Everyone got a tax cut, the goal is extending or making those cuts permanent.
Did the wealthy get a bigger dollar saving, well duh Moran, they paid the most in dollar terms. Percentage wise the middle class got highest percentage. Liberals must all have been dropped on their heads because they are steadfast on being stupid. I can explain it to you, I cannot understand it for you.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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The problem is these aren't revenue neutral tax cuts
Apr 3, 2025, 6:22 PM
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so by cutting "just 2%" you're causing 4.5 trillion increase to the deficit...
Either you care about the deficit or you don't.
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Offensive Star [318]
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Re: The problem is these aren't revenue neutral tax cuts
Apr 3, 2025, 7:29 PM
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Let us make it fair, dictionary definition, flat rate all pay same percentage or VAT on all goods/services. That would be fair, VAT would tax the estimated $2t cash economy.
Do you advocate for elimination of middle/lower class cuts too? You cannot advocate for one without the other getting whacked too.
I just did my taxes, I see the middle class cut and it was great. My effective rate Fed was 7.2% State 1.3%. To deny the middle class got breaks is just utter rubbish.
Married filing jointly can have an income of $123k and pay an effective rate of 8.5%. My objection to your drivel is based upon tax breaks for the rich statements. I am cool with all of them going away, are you?
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Why can't you cut lower income taxes while raising higher income taxes?
Apr 4, 2025, 1:10 PM
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Or are you just making a terrible false dichotomy?
People in your income tax bracket saved like $910 a year while people in the highest 1% saved $61,000 a year in taxes. Is your $900 really worth giving a millionaire $61,000?
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Do you think Trump and the Republicans will call it a "tax cut" and do you think
Apr 3, 2025, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Read it 3 times...still...huh? Want to reword that?*** ] |
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there will be only an "extension of existing expiring cuts?"
Will there be additional tax rate cuts, estate tax cuts, capital gains cuts etc or just a clean extension of existing cuts?
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Orange Elite [5411]
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It's nice to know that the Democrats can propose a one year tax increase
Apr 3, 2025, 11:43 AM
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and just leave it for perpetuity and Republicans won't see it as a tax raise in any year after the first year.
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Ultimate Tiger [34893]
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Clemson Icon [24719]
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Ultimate Tiger [38875]
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Re: They're not currently considering cutting taxes...
Apr 3, 2025, 12:06 PM
[ in reply to They're not currently considering cutting taxes... ] |
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This 100%.
Ok, you want to raise prices on everything? Great, but what do we get out of it? Extending the tax cuts isn’t going to put any more dollars in anyone’s pockets.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108122]
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3100 points, by my math. Two days. He just may hit his mark.
3
Apr 3, 2025, 10:36 AM
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Replies: 58
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