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YOUR BALANCE
Ken Hatfield
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Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:09 AM

I was 11 when hatfield left, and i get that the 92 season was substandard for the Teams we had in the 80's, but what was the real beef with him? Why did so many hate him? Genuine question, i really don't know? 91 was a good season and 93 was good, i actually attended the Peach Bowl that year when we beat Kentucky with West.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:11 AM

He wasn't Danny Ford.

It wouldn't have mattered who was the next coach after Danny.

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I try to save a life a day, usually it is my own.


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:14 AM

That is what i figured more than anything.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:18 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

True, he wasn't Danny - but worse, he was the antithesis of Danny. Danny was rough around the edges, good ol' southern boy, chewed tobacco, cussed, etc. Hatfield was an evangelical who would preach and teach at churches or campus ministries, didn't cus, was clean cut, didn't smoke or chew. The admin went too far, I think, in trying to get the anti-Danny.

He had pretty good teams but the change was just too much too fast and it came too soon after an unpleasant ending of Ford's tenure.

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All true.***


Oct 26, 2022, 10:10 AM



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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


It went deeper than that.


Oct 26, 2022, 2:10 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

Max Lennon, school president at the time, came in with thoughts of making Clemson a southern version of an Ivy League school. He despised the prominence that the football program had in the life of the university and he knew that in order to bring it down to where he wanted it to be, Danny Ford had to go.

Mind you, Danny didn't help his cause. As powerful as he was at the time, he overplayed that power and alienated just enough trustees to give Lennon what he wanted. I heard a rumor at the time (but I trust the source of the rumor enough to believe the story is true) that Lennon attended some sort of Christian men's retreat in Arkansas in October 1989 where he met with Hatfield in a hotel room. They came to a verbal agreement that Hatfield would be the head coach at Clemson in 1990. Danny didn't "resign" until January 1990.

With that sort of behind the scenes, underhanded crap going, on Hatfield never stood a chance.

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Lennon wasn't trying to make Clemson an Ivy League school.


Oct 27, 2022, 11:29 AM

He was trying to raise our academic profile, which was needed at that time. Clemson's academic reputation at the time was okay, but not nearly what it could've been.

I applaud Lennon for remembering that Clemson University is an academic institution first, and that is more important than a football program. Whether or not that is why he wanted Danny Ford gone is anyone's guess, but we do know that he and Danny clashed. Public feuds between a boss and an employee rarely end well for the employee, and it didn't in this case either.

Danny forced Lennon's hand by going to IPTAY meetings and disparaging the university president. Portraying Lennon as some sort of evil ruler who didn't like football and/or was jealous of Danny Ford is nothing more than an attempt to make Danny a martyr by football fans who can't accept reality.

Danny wasn't a martyr. If he wanted to keep his job, he wouldn't have gotten us on NCAA probation, put us at risk for getting on NCAA probation again, and publicly criticized his boss.

Dabo is a great example of how to do this right. He has gotten record support for the football program while cooperating with university leadership, not tearing them down. And he has done this while making sure that our players excel in the classroom and in the community. If Danny could've attempted even some of this, he would probably have remained our football coach for a long time.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Hatfield


Oct 27, 2022, 12:50 PM

Hatfield inherited a program that ranked 3rd in the country in winning percentage in the 80s and that was a national power with regular wins over Georgia, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Florida State. Hatfield took our team to 7th in the ACC his third year and was as good as gone following that awful year based on how his team looked and played. His last year we continued to look awful even though we had a nice won/loss record. As I recall he asked for and did not get a vote of confidence or a contract extension and was ready to leave because of that.

Hatfield's relationships with the town and the university had very little to do with his departure. He fell from grace entirely because he lost games he should have won.

In judging Hatfield I think you can tell a lot by how he ended his career at Rice. Had he been worth a hoot, someone else would have hired him. The coaches who came after Hatfield at Rice won more than Coach Hatfield.

I have been watching games since Coach Howard's day. I was glad when we parted company with Coach Hatfield. I think it is notable that Coach West lost a lot of games and everyone knew he was a goner. But he beat SC in his last games, was cheered wildly and was carried off the field on the backs of his players. He then coached at Memphis for a long time which says something about West in comparison to Hatfield.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:53 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

This is it in a nut shell. Once the decision was made to move on from Ford, I thought Clemson got a good coach. He was doing well at Arky, and Clemson lured him away. (Arkansas was his alma mater, and he was a starter on their 1964 national championship team). Unfortunately, he was at Clemson while George Welsh was giving UVA some of their best football in their history. He also was the Clemson coach who first had to face FSU as a conference game. After 1993, I thought he'd shown he deserved more time. At any rate, you can probably justify moving on from him (as I recall, he resigned because no extension was forthcoming, but I may be wrong), but you can't replace him with Tommy West. West had one season as a HC, and had a losing record at a SoCon school, but...he had been on Ford's staff!

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Lucky Johnson


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:36 AM

I was a student during the Hatfield era into the West era (lucky me!). I remember being in Littlejohn the night West was announced. He received a heartfelt thunderous ovation which was relief that Hatfield was gone and one of Dsnny’s guys was back. Didn’t work out very well, but to be sure everyone there was ready to move on from Hatfield.

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Hiring West was much more ridiculous than hiring Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 2:04 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

ever was. West was not qualified to be our head coach, but because he reminded enough people of Daddy Ford and coached on Ford's staff, he was the choice. Amazing how badly our administration screwed that one up.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Tommy West would likely win more than


Oct 26, 2022, 2:36 PM

TWO tournament games in 12 years.

Please stick with what you know. Thank you.

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Re: Ken Hatfield- not DF & the resulting Clemson infighting


Oct 26, 2022, 10:13 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

gave ownership and control of ACC football to FSU for years. We are finally past that and ironically while we got stronger FSU post Bowden travails sort of reversed this

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If we are being honest, FSU was going to be the elite


Oct 26, 2022, 2:06 PM

team in the ACC regardless of what we did at Clemson. I don't think Danny Ford's Clemson-coached teams would've been at the level of those 90s FSU teams. I do think we would've been more competitive, but I don't think we could've recruited on their level or had the ability to keep up with them on either side of the ball with any consistency.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: If we are being honest, FSU was going to be the elite


Oct 26, 2022, 3:10 PM

We were and would have been on a level playing field with FSU had Danny not been pushed out the door.

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Based on what?


Oct 26, 2022, 3:32 PM

Hopes and wishes, and what else?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Based on what?


Oct 26, 2022, 6:37 PM

FSU defeated Clemson in 1988 on the ultimate trick play ( possibly of all time) and in 1989 Clemson handily defeated FSU in Tallahassee. Going into the 90’s the programs were equal. Anything beyond that is pure speculation.

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Exactly, it is speculation as far as Clemson is concerned.


Oct 27, 2022, 9:52 AM

What's not speculation is Florida State's incredible run of success in the 1990s. Their run of conference championships, big time bowls, and two national titles during the '90s was well above what we did during the 1980s under Ford.

From 1987-2000, FSU finished in the top 5 of the final poll every time. That's 14 straight years. In contrast, Danny's teams finished in the top 5 just once during his Clemson career from 1978-1989.

This isn't to diminish Danny's significant success at Clemson, but to highlight just how dominant FSU was. They were on another level than we had ever been at Clemson.

Guaranteeing that Danny would've won at least another national championship at Clemson if he had stayed is ridiculous. Other than 1981, we were never close to contending for another one and assuming that the talent we had would've developed into a title winning team is not based on anything other than a desire to romanticize Danny Ford and his tenure at Clemson.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: If we are being honest, FSU was going to be the elite


Oct 26, 2022, 10:18 PM [ in reply to If we are being honest, FSU was going to be the elite ]

Totally disagree with that assessment. Look at Danny's record against the best of the best while he was at Clemson. FSU would have still won big but I have no doubt we would have too. Would have been fun to see.

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Yes, Danny won some big games.


Oct 27, 2022, 9:59 AM

But unlike Bobby Bowden during the 1990s, Danny also lost some games he shouldn't have. That tends to separate the great teams from the good teams.

For example:

1987 - we finished 10-2, but lost to NC State.
1988 - we finished 10-2, but lost to NC State again.
1989 - we finished 10-2, but lost to Duke and Georgia Tech.

These were Danny Ford's last three years at Clemson - the glory years of Clemson football at that time, seasons that some of you point to as evidence that he was on the cusp of winning another national championship. Come on.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


He wasn't recruiting well and sucked as a head coach.


Oct 26, 2022, 2:33 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

Thats it in a nutshell.

Plus was very uncomfortable in public settings and just bad with the public. He had VERY little respect from the players.

To those of us who were there then, we remember players on stage prior to getting whipped by Cal, yelling "if you aint Clemson you ain't ####" and similar poor diaplays of character. We remember sitting through a depressing half full stadium and watching us lose at home to Wake Forest.

His overall record was highly deceiving, and that was despite inheriting one of most talented Clemson teams of all time.

These are some of the reasons he faded away into obscurity at Rice.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:20 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

Exactly correct!!

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Didn't help that he was the first Clemson coach to lose to


Oct 26, 2022, 9:11 AM

the white meat.

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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Not Danny, and recruiting tanked***


Oct 26, 2022, 9:13 AM



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Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked***


Oct 26, 2022, 2:05 PM

This seems to have been forgotten. Recruiting fell off a cliff with him here. In his 3rd year he went 5-6, Clemson's first losing season in 16 years. Took him 3 years to destroy what Danny spent a decade building.

People who think it that the only reason he wasn't liked was because "he just just wasn't Danny" have poor memory.

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Exactly! Recruiting tanked and the tajectory


Oct 26, 2022, 2:35 PM

Was going straight down....his last 8-3 team was one of the worst 8-3 teams that I can ever remember. He got beat by FSU 0-57, by a subpar Wake team at home, and UNC 0-24.

Our 8 wins were all ugly as well.

We were not good.

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Exactly***


Oct 26, 2022, 2:44 PM [ in reply to Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked*** ]



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Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked***


Oct 26, 2022, 3:13 PM [ in reply to Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked*** ]

Hatfield wanted to recruit the smaller faster players... what a bunch of bull crap! Hatfield couldn't recruit anywhere close to the caliber players that Danny brought to Clemson.

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"If a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal."


Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked***


Oct 29, 2022, 7:39 AM [ in reply to Re: Not Danny, and recruiting tanked*** ]

Remember the plane flying over the stadium trailing the banner, Howard built it, Ford filled it and Hatfield killed it.

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Ken Hatfield had a "dour" personality that did not endear


Oct 26, 2022, 9:14 AM

him to the fans. But, truth be told, his insurmountable problem, simply put, was that he was NOT DANNY FORD. I may be completely wrong, but remembrance of the time is that NO ONE, outside of the power brokers in the Clemson Admin and BOT at the time, wanted Danny gone. And the fanbase let that displeasure be known far and wide, with the most obvious target being the replacement the BOT had chosen, Ken Hatfield.

I don't think it was any more complicated than that.

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Re: Ken Hatfield had a "dour" personality that did not endear


Oct 26, 2022, 9:18 AM

I think that's 90% of it. However, he was aloof. He kept to himself and his wife, didn't like the gripping and grinning that comes with being a head coach and was not a good recruiter.

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Re: Ken Hatfield had a "dour" personality that did not endear


Oct 26, 2022, 10:16 AM [ in reply to Ken Hatfield had a "dour" personality that did not endear ]

When Hatfield was publicly introduced as the new Clemson coach, the administration even asked Frank Howard to come and try to assuage the throng of Clemson faithful that came out to protest. It did not work.

Go Tigers. :)

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I think I read a story on here awhile back that said


Oct 26, 2022, 10:27 AM

Hatfield was offered, and accepted the job "Sight Unseen". That tells me two important things.

1) Danny Ford had built Clemson into a "Destination" job for coaches at the time.

2) It tells me just how desperate the BOT was to get rid of Danny Ford, that they would offer the job to Hatfield without even a face to face meeting. Remember, there was no "Teleconferencing" back in that day and age.

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Re: I think I read a story on here awhile back that said


Oct 26, 2022, 2:06 PM

Arkansas wasn't particularly happy with him, that's a big part of the reason he switched so easily.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:14 AM

I agree with you. I kind of liked Ken Hatfield...but he wasn't Danny Ford and that was his great sin.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 29, 2022, 5:18 AM

I liked Ken Hatfield, too. I met him while getting on a plane once. IMO, you are 100% correct about his great “sin”…..not Danny Ford.

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His offense was ahead of its time.***


Oct 26, 2022, 9:18 AM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: His offense was ahead of its time.***


Oct 26, 2022, 9:24 AM

His playcalling was ridiculous.

All he had to do when he first arrived was to get the team on the bus.

Recruiting dropped likea manhole cover.

Fans stopped coming to games.

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Re: His offense was ahead of its time.***


Oct 26, 2022, 11:53 AM

Fans stopped coming because he told them to if they wanted him gone... Offense was awful... I still remember the "wrinkle" against FSU where we ran with 2 fullbacks... I remember the article in the Tiger saying that the only question re: plays was which FB we were handing off to...

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Re: His offense was ahead of its time.***


Oct 26, 2022, 9:29 AM [ in reply to His offense was ahead of its time.*** ]

He was not a good coach for Clemson. The players lost so much grit. I watched on Clemson player have to shove another player into the endzone because he ran out gas on an interception. The team fell to new lowes in strength and conditioning.

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Re: His offense was ahead of its time.***


Oct 26, 2022, 10:24 AM

Exactly, the embarrassing loss to Cal (37-13) in the bowl game told me that Clemson had become soft and a Danny Ford coached team would have never been considered soft. After that game, I was done and ready for a change from Hadfield. Initially wasn't against West mainly because he was on coach Ford's staff, but it became quickly apparent that he was not the man for the job either.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:22 AM

Agreed he wasn’t Danny Ford and subsequently would have happened with anyone that came in at that time.

I had no beef with the guy and thought of him to be of high character.

My only issue was recruiting. It was fairly obvious and I guess looking back understandable that we would not recruit to the level Ford had gotten us to. He won with Ford’s players and we were slowly in decline. Had no idea at the time how far down we would eventually end up. Glad all that is behind us as it was a really difficult time in our football history.

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MEG


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 11:56 AM

Don't know if it was true, but he said publicly that his recruiting was being sabotaged by IPTAY members...

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It was absolutely true.***


Oct 26, 2022, 2:09 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


That was spoken as a certainty.


Oct 26, 2022, 3:20 PM

Maybe that's also Brownell's problem? Is IPTAY sabotaging him as well?

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"If a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal."


Yes, there were IPTAY members at Clemson working


Oct 27, 2022, 10:00 AM

against Hatfield's efforts. This was obviously not an official IPTAY position, but there were Clemson people - IPTAY members/boosters - who did not like Hatfield and were still not over Ford being gone, and acted irrationally and immaturely.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:24 AM

He never fit in with the Clemson persona. He wanted to be a dignitary of sorts. Whether he did or not he always came across as being better than Clemson. He was not a Clemson man, just a clean white collared coach the board put in to help the image of the university under the circumstances. That plus the fact that the board fired a highly popular football coach that brought Clemson its first National Championship and that act was so unpopular it was said the board had to hire body guards for a while. Not sure if true but it sounded like it was. Nobody would have been accepted by the Clemson faithful after the way they handled it but Hatfield was probably like rubbing salt in the wound.

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Re: To rub salt in the wound..


Oct 26, 2022, 9:25 AM

Many Clemson fans wore Arkansas hats with Tiger shirts when Ford was hired at Arkansas.

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I try to save a life a day, usually it is my own.


It was the only time in my life that I'd bought an item


Oct 26, 2022, 10:07 AM

from a school other than Clemson.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:26 AM

He lost to UVA for our first loss to them in history. I was at the game and it was like a war was over after the game. We got out as fast as we could.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:34 AM

There were several issues. He was the first coach to lose to Virginia. Then he got killed in the Citrus bowl by California, the first bowl loss since 1985. Then he had the first losing season since 1976. Then he got blasted 57-0 by Florida St. There were several things that compounded on top of each other, plus the anger of the fan base about the way Danny Ford was forced out.

Related to this is that he didn't have recruiting ties to the region. He played and coached at Arkansas and Air Force. Most of his connections were out West.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:47 AM

Ken's wife refused to move to Clemson if I recall correctly.

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"It is not part of a true culture to tame tigers any more than it is to make sheep ferocious."
--Henry David Thoreau


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 12:03 PM

His wife lived with Ken in the Clemson area. I saw the two of them together at church on most Sundays.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 1:51 PM

All I know is that I remember reading that Sandy Hatfield was a barrel racer and was staying behind in Arkansas with her horses. Never heard any updates.

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"It is not part of a true culture to tame tigers any more than it is to make sheep ferocious."
--Henry David Thoreau


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 12:29 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

Didn't they live in Greenville?

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No, they lived in Townville.***


Oct 26, 2022, 2:21 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:25 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

That Citrus bowl was the worst Clemson game that I ever went to. I don't think anyone wanted to be there.

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I was at the california game, thank goodness their fans were


Oct 26, 2022, 10:39 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

cool..

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:39 AM

I lived in Memphis at the time and Hatfield was at AR (which received a lot of coverage in Memphis).

They had an interview with him on the news one night when they were discussing AR recruiting. I watched and thought...who would ever want to play for that guy.

Couple weeks later he was named the Clemson coach.

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1993 Clemson-Maryland game at Death Valley


Oct 26, 2022, 9:42 AM

I do not know what the released attendance was, but there were less than 40000 actually there. In the old soccer field parking lot I was the only car in a row of about 30 spaces. We were the worst 8-3 team in America, and thankfully we played a bad Kentucky team in the Peach Bowl. Hatfield was a graduate of Arkansas and they were happy that he was leaving, this should have told us we picked the wrong man. It only took the miracle of Dabo Swinney and 25 years to get back to where Clemson was in 1989 when Danny Ford was forced out.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 9:43 AM

He was a rebound coach. Losing Danny broke our hearts so unless Hatfield had been able to sustain the same level of success as Danny we would hate him regardless.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:34 AM

Danny would have won at least 1 National Championship if not both, during the next 2 years had he stayed. That 1990 Team was one of the most talented teams that he coached. I remember and wish I still had the magazines that featured that team.

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Agree. That 1990 was loaded.


Oct 26, 2022, 12:25 PM

Best defense in the country. Second best offense in our history. And that's without Terry Allen who may not have gone pro if Ford had still been around.

What a wasted opportunity.

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People often say this, but what is it based on?


Oct 26, 2022, 2:27 PM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

We were 10-2 each of the last few years of Danny's tenure at Clemson. We had some big wins and also some ### losses. Our defenses were tough, and our offenses were just okay.

Those Miami, FSU, and Nebraska teams in the early-mid 90s were really good. Given the fact that Danny never finished in the top 5 other than our national championship season in 1981, and rarely finished in the top 10 otherwise, what makes some of you so certain we would've won another national championship if he stayed?

His last three years at Clemson:

1987: 10-2, finished 10th and 12th in final poll
1988: 10-2, finished 8th and 9th in final poll
1989: 10-2, finished 11th and 12th in final poll

This doesn't scream elite, national championship contender on the horizon.

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Re: People often say this, but what is it based on?


Oct 26, 2022, 3:25 PM

Clemson was 6-5 in 1980. They were national champions in 1981. It is possible as long as you have good players and coaches.
Look at Tennessee this year.

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Re: People often say this, but what is it based on?


Oct 26, 2022, 5:10 PM [ in reply to People often say this, but what is it based on? ]

You have no class whatsoever.

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Re: People often say this, but what is it based on?


Oct 29, 2022, 7:03 AM [ in reply to People often say this, but what is it based on? ]

The recruit that we missed on was the Woodruff quarterback Tony Rice. Rodney Williams was a great quarterback but he was no Tony Rice. 1987, 1988, 1989 would likely have been very different at Clemson been able to successfully recruit Tony Rice to be our quarterback. Add Tony Rice to our roster and yes we probably would have not had those bad losses and gone undefeated. Notre Dame certainly would not have been a national championship caliber team without him. If Danny had gone undefeated in just one of those late 1980s seasons, it would have been impossible to get rid of him no matter how hard Max Lennon tried.

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Clemson was really high on the up and coming Tommy West


Oct 26, 2022, 9:51 AM

Coaching Quarterly had him ranked in their can't miss hires.

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Geville Tiger on Clemson football , "Dabo's only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:02 AM

gaffe in Clemson history. Upon his sudden, shocking departure, the entire team was basically in revolt, and the fan base in disbelief. Problem #1: Any coach who came in after him was bound to face an uphill battle. Problem #2: Ken Hatfield was a good, successful football coach with a proven record when he got to Clemson, but Clemson people and players did not want another football coach - they already had one they loved. It was a horrible situation. Being a succcessful, established coach, he did things his way, which wasn't the Danny Ford way, and it wasn't what most Clemson people wanted. He had different ideas about the offense and defense. Problem #3: Firing a beloved, successful Danny Ford hurt recruiting beyond measure. Previously strong ties and relationships were killed. Recruiting took a huge step back. Problem #4: Hatfield had the personality of a fence post, and he and his family never "fit in" personality wise and situation wise in and around Clemson. He was a bit stand-offish and unapologetic about doing things his way, no matter what. To a fault.

Did Hatfield's flexbone offense suck? It sure as hayull did. Did the program go down significantly on his watch? It sure did, and no way he gets a total pass on that; he's got to own that and he never would. The truth is, Hatfield was not as terrible of a football coach as many Clemson fans would lead you to believe; BUT he was not a great coach, he was not Danny Ford great for sure, and he was the wrong coach at the wrong time for Clemson. I blame most of the nearly two decade tanking of Clemson football on the way the Danny Ford situation was handled, not so much on Ken Hatfield.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:15 AM

best response yet... Danny was a tough act to follow and Hatfield really wasn't as competitive as the fan base had grown accustomed to.

Had we hired him after West and had he had the same win/loss record we mightve loved him. no, after typing I realize this would nit be true. go back to what Smiling Tiger said.

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^^^This


Oct 26, 2022, 10:17 AM [ in reply to Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled ]

I was a year out of Clemson and had been working in Sparklecity but had moved back to Aiken after Hugo. My old coot coworkers called to let me know that Danny was gone (fired, resigned, pushed out, etc.)...the joy in their voices just added to the gut-wrenching news.

IMHO we had another NC or 2 coming with Danny.

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Re: ^^^This


Oct 26, 2022, 10:22 AM

The '92 team had National Championship potential.

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Men at 25 play football. Men at 40 play tennis. Men at 60 play golf. Have you noticed as men get older their balls get smaller.


Re: ^^^This


Oct 26, 2022, 10:47 AM

The 91' team was just as talented. A loss to UGA and a Tie to Virginia of all teams ended up costing the team a top 3 finish that year and a possible NC.

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His Own Worst Enemy


Oct 26, 2022, 11:09 AM [ in reply to Re: ^^^This ]

Of course there was always going to be a faction that hated coach Hat just because he was the next guy. I was following recruiting intently during Danny's tenure and on through both the Hatfield and West years. Hat's first class was not terrible. Bernard Randolph and Derek Burnette were the top LB duo in the country. Unfortunately, Randolph had been way overhyped at Pendleton HS and eventually worked his way up to a marginal role player. Burnette was the real deal but had a substance abuse issue and departed after one year.
After that first year recruiting absolutely collapsed. We signed multiple players that had ZERO D1 offers. The talent level on the field plummeted. Yes, we won some games in the very weak ACC but had gone from powerhouse to average at best. So the fans voted by not attending. I was at every game. Don't care what was announced - there were games with less than 30,000 fans.
So, from a distance one could speculate that it was the anti Ford faction burning recruiting ties that sealed his fate. This group did not help, but the facts were that Coach Hat and his staff put about 25% of the effort into recruiting compared to Ford and his staff. I followed it, and I know how the conversations went with some of the in state recruits. "We're interested in you coming in for a visit and want to offer you a scholarship to Clemson". Uh, no thanks coach, I plan to go to X. "Oh, OK, good luck, let us know if you change your mind". End of contact.
So he dug his own grave. His circumstance coming in was tough and he would never please all the Danny fans. But if he had recruited, put quality teams on the field, and won 10 games a year much of this would have passed over time. A good Christian man, but the wrong man for the HC job at the time as he ran the talent level and fan support straight into the ground.

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Re: ^^^This


Oct 26, 2022, 8:25 PM [ in reply to ^^^This ]

Best thing to happen in coot football history; Danny Ford getting run off at Clemson. They were ecstatic! Go figure.

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Re: Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:26 AM [ in reply to Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled ]

Smiling Tiger describes it perfectly.

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Re: Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:29 AM

Perect storm 1-He was not Danny 2-Did not seem interested in being around Clemson folks 3-terrible offense 4 Not an aggressive recruiter 5--also hard to succeed when half the fans hate you and alumni hiring planes to fly Fire Hatfield banners over the stadium

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Re: Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:35 AM [ in reply to Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled ]

I agree with everything you said. We were season ticket holders throughout the 80’s but stopped in 1990- the year Ford was forced out. We had always been told that as IPTAY members and fans we were “family” but when an extremely successful and popular coach was fired the “powers that be” wouldn’t even tell us why. Clemson football was under investigation (again) at the time and I figured the University was concerned about getting the death penalty because the NCAA had some strong evidence of wrongdoing but when the report came out in 1990 that wasn’t the case at all.

Many fans made Hatfield the scapegoat in what was a terrible time in Clemson football history. I don’t think anyone would have been accepted by the Clemson faithful after the way the situation was handled.

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Re: Danny Ford's departure was the most tragically bungled


Oct 26, 2022, 10:51 AM

From what I remember after the investigation was complete and the NCAA had nothing rumors started going around that the administration asked to be investigated to prove their firing of Coach Ford was justified.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:27 AM

Hatfield came in and took over a program stocked with talent and on cruise control to win 10 games, win the ACC and win an upper tier bowl every year and have an outside chance to run the table with some breaks. He left with the talent cupboard depleted and the program in an unrecoverable dive. No more complicated than that. Now how was he able to do that in such a short time is the real question. I always felt like it was an unspoken arrangement between the administration and Hatfield to basically put Clemson on 3 years probation without really calling it probation.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:43 AM

Personality issues aside…

His recruiting was abysmal … he did his best with Danny’s players and left a mid major level of talent for Tommy West to work with…

I was a student during Hatfield/West years - there were guys on scholarship that belonged on a Clemson football team about as much as I did…

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It's a lot more complicated than that.


Oct 26, 2022, 11:19 AM [ in reply to Re: Ken Hatfield ]

Hatfield was NOT Danny Ford, and he was NOT going to come in there and put it on "cruise control" and just keep doing things the Danny Ford way; NO coach would, especially any coach worth his salt. Ken Hatfield was not a nobody looking to make a name for himself in big time college football when Clemson hired him. Rather, he was a highly successful coach with 3 top 15 finished at Arky and two conference championships. Any such coach is coming in and doing things HIS way; to expect anything else is foolish. I've already explained why he failed. Yes, a big part of it was his personality and his insistence on doing things that weren't working. To that extent I agree with you. However, his ability to recruit was squashed from day one due to the shocking way Danny Ford was terminated. When Ford was let go, it appeared to the rest of the big-time football world that Clemson was no longer serious about winning at an elite level. Recruits picked up on that immediately. Recruiting ties and relationships were broken and disappeared. As far as recruiting goes, Hatfield and his crew were basically starting over. That, combined with the admin, NCAA, competitors and press watching every move, it put Clemson at a tremendous recruiting disadvantage against their competition who had no such restraints. That may have been the single biggest factor that set us back.

To be clear - I'm not telling anybody that Hatfield was a great football coach. He just wasn't as terrible as many Clemson fans claim, and people who are still pizzed about nearly two decades of wandering in the football desert, look to the powers that be at Clemson in 1990, not Ken Hatfield.

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He was replacing a legend, Danny Ford. He inherited a wealth


Oct 26, 2022, 10:47 AM

of talent and did well record wise with Danny's guys but he couldn't recruit very well on his own, and the talent went downhill fast.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 10:57 AM

Little aloof, didn’t embrace Clemson, and feeling was reciprocated by fan base. Larger issues were recruiting fell off substantially. Players didn’t respect him. Going from Ford to Hatfield felt like the substitute teacher showing up where the class goes crazy. My senior year was Ford’s last, but was back on campus for graduate degree during Hatfield’s time. Those are the things I remember.

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Everyone knows that if you lose to Wake Forest you get fired


Oct 26, 2022, 11:16 AM

Hatfield
West
Bowden

All lost to Wake Forest and were fired.

Bowden lost to Wake Forest in 2003 but survived by beating UofSC 63 to 17 a few games later.
The second time Bowden lost to Wake Forest he was fired on Monday.


Dabo was playing with fire when Wake Forest took them to over time in 2022 (sarcasm).

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To sum up Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 11:26 AM

We're playing Duke or NC State on the road. We're deep in their territory, and we have no time outs. There's less than 30 seconds on the clock before halftime. He runs the ball for little gain and tries to rush the FG crew onto the field. The other team is in no hurry to get in place and is laughing as time runs out. When asked about it, he snapped that we've tried it in practice and it worked.

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Another reason


Oct 26, 2022, 11:41 AM

We played at UGay in 1990 or thereabout. UGay couldn't stop the run and even "little Vanderbilt" as Larry Munson described them ran all over UGay that year. We still had that great option attack from Danny and couldn't throw very well. So what does Hatfield do? He tries to throw the ball the whole game. One time he ran the option and it broke for a very long TD. He ignored that and went back to the unsuccessful passing game. We were favored in that game but lost like 20-7.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 11:32 AM

I was a student and watched every game and every player with a microscope. His first couple years were good with Danny’s players. We just destroyed everybody with our defense. However he didn’t recruit well did not bring in top shelf talent and by 93 it was clear they were not even in the same class with Florida State. Also, he lost at home to Wake Forest in 93, which will get any coach at Clemson fired. He was distant with the fans, had a holier than thou attitude. And quite frankly he was never missed

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 11:38 AM

Football results were going backward. Nothing about his personality made me like him. Wasn't he fired by his alma mater?

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 11:40 AM

Recruiting went way down.

A BUNCH of the players that sustained FSU's dynasty were from SC and should have gone to Clemson.

Some people have said that boosters were actively working against Hatfield to have recruits go elsewhere so he could be forced out. No idea about that. I just know the talent dropped way off.

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Recruiting tanked and the players thought he was a joke.***


Oct 26, 2022, 11:52 AM



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'I Cannot Sanction Your Buffoonery'


Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 1:28 PM

Perhaps I'm dis-remembering, but coach Howard did the official PR welcome rather than the AD or President. I always believed it was because they knew it was an unpopular hire and coach was the only person who commanded enough respect to pull it off.

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It's hard to replace the legend.


Oct 26, 2022, 1:35 PM

He was not a good fit at all. For tons of reasons, it was doomed from the start.

Solich couldn't do it, Jimbo couldn't do it (still can't), Bill O'Brien couldn't do it, Ray Perkins and Bill Curry couldn't do it, etc.

Bama was terrible for a decade until Stallings won a natty, then they sucked for another decade. Nebraska still hasn't recovered, FSU hasn't recovered, Penn State hasn't recovered, and the list goes on. Heck, Clemson sucked for a couple of decades as well.

It almost seems inevitable...when the football party is over, it's over for a while.

Sammy Hagar is the only dude I know who took over after a legend and still kicked some butt. Lol.

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Ken Hatfield told me I was going to play for him one day


Oct 26, 2022, 1:43 PM

He was just trying to enjoy his meal at Outback Steakhouse on Clemson Blvd and my dad insisted on taking 12 year old me over to his table to meet him. He was a really nice guy, and talked to us for like 5 mins with his food sitting there getting cold.

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Several reasons.


Oct 26, 2022, 2:02 PM

1. He wasn't Danny Ford. A sizable portion of our fan base was mad that Ford was no longer the coach, and was unable to give Hatfield a fair chance.
2. We lost to Virginia and Wake Forest, both big deals at the time.
3. Recruiting was down.

I don't think Hatfield was the right coach for us, and I think some future down years were probably ahead based on what I saw. With that said, the man was treated really unfairly, starting with boos from rednecks who showed up at his introductory press conference. Some "fans" contacted recruits to tell them not to come here. One person flew a plane over the stadium calling for Hatfield's firing. None of this was fair to him, regardless of how people felt about him or the fact that Danny was gone.

The way Hatfield was treated at Clemson was embarrassing, plain and simple. He gets blamed for "ruining" Clemson football, but in reality, Clemson was to blame.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 2:04 PM

Hatfield’s last team was 8-3 and was the worst 8-3 team in America. Can remember mid way through the 1st quarter counting 26 people in the north upper deck in Death Valley

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I didn't read the whole thread so maybe all of this has been said:


Oct 26, 2022, 2:22 PM

He installed the flex-bone offense. Never heard of it? I wonder why.

He followed a very popular coach who had been very successful...

He installed the flex-bone offense.

He came in with a football under one arm and a bible under the other. Made the players sign "Personal Conduct" contracts. Do what? It's not like he was coming into Miami and inherited a bunch of thugs. Some of the players were offended, and I get it. It was over the top and unnecessary. Not a good start...

He installed the flex-bone offense.

He had zero personality. At a school where Frank Howard, Charlie Pell, and Danny Ford had charmed folks at all the IPTAY/football events for decades, and told great stories and made em laugh... he was a dud. He hated having to "make the rounds" and attend all of those affairs.

He installed the flex-bone offense.

He neglected our best recruiting pipelines that had been cultivated for years, like Ga, NC, north Fla. Bragged about his connections in Texas HS football from coaching at Arky. Didn't amount to squat. We got one kid out of Texas, a safety that was very good. Can't remember his name.

He installed the flex-bone offense.

I have no doubt he is a very nice man. But he installed the flex-bone offense.

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Re: I didn't read the whole thread so maybe all of this has been said:


Oct 26, 2022, 2:48 PM

It’s a little unclear whether you were a fan of his offensive system. I think he called it the flex bone. Interestingly Google says it’s a good system for YOUTH football.



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Yes, the flex-bone was no doubt a big hit at the Pee Wee level.


Oct 26, 2022, 2:58 PM



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Darnell Stephens was the safety from Texas


Oct 26, 2022, 10:50 PM [ in reply to I didn't read the whole thread so maybe all of this has been said: ]

The flex bone sucked. People grumbled about Ford’s offense many times. It caused us to keep inferior teams in the games with out top notched D. FSU and Miami were chunking it around even Spurrier at Duke took Danny down . The fans didn’t want Danny gone- Max did but the fans also wanted the Offense to modernize as people could see the game was changing. Hatfield was a terrible choice for that. West then had to be the one to bring a passing O to Clemson with Nealon Green but by then Hatfields damage to recruiting and our image as a regional/potentially national power was done. Meanwhile disgruntled booster and lack of investment continued to erode things until Bowden brought back some excitement/hope

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Yep, that's him. And your comments are dead on the money....***


Oct 27, 2022, 7:47 AM



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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 2:51 PM

My recollection is thatmost of what other have said here is true.

We fans were a bit drunk on having won one championship and thinking the we should contend every year thereafter. Somethinging even Danny probably could not have delivered on. Lol da like how we go after Dabo for now. High exectations are great fuel, but are often not realistic

Anyone following Danny Ford was going to suffer unless they probably contended for the championship right ght away.

Hatfield seemed like a good man , but like others said, he was not receuiting well and was putting mediocre teams on the field. I think at the end he had started to turn the corner, but it was too late at that point and ce down to the fact that fans had totally not had faith in him and what little they had was gone. After that 5-6 season there was no forgiveness.

I'm a bit more favorable to him because I am married to a Hatfield, but that make no real difference. In the end the machine had to be thoroughly flushedwith coaches even worse and regreased to get to where we are now and stop lamenting for the Danny Ford days.

Ending up with Dabo was a bit of a blind squirrel finding a nut. We have been blessed with a great tradition that holds us up thrpugh the thin times.

Think about what Tennessee has gone through with coaches. Not really much different than what happened to Clemson in terms of administratively switching from a great coach (for whatever reason) and trying to move on.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 3:30 PM

The guy inherited a monster of a football roster that was loaded from top to bottom, Danny was about to start dominating college football. Hatfield killed all of that in 4 years.His assistant coaches were terrible, he nor they could recruit, once the depth was depleted,the program died.Oh yea, he was a good man!

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As you can see from my handle


Oct 26, 2022, 3:50 PM

I graduated in 1994, making my college football years “the Hatfield Era” and a bit of a disappointment. I was at that Virginia game for the first loss to them EVER. It was only 20-7, but we were not going to win that day. Don’t forget the Wahoos were ranked #1 at one point and had 5 future NFL players on offense.

Barely lost to GT, who got a share of the National Title that year. Unfortunately that was the highlight, since he was doing it with Danny’s players. As guys graduated or went pro, it was obvious recruiting wasn’t up to snuff. The Flexbone & FSU joining the conference did not help his case either. Still think if the gimmicks in that night game in 92 against FSU had worked, the team doesn’t have a losing record. That close loss seemed to take a lot out of them. A rather forgettable season, aside from the 29-28 comeback win at UVA.

At the end, we caught hell from national sports media for letting a coach with an 8-3 record go. It just was not a good fit, and he was the guy after THE guy. We spent many years in the wilderness afterwards. Tommy West was a good fit, but just not a great coach. Bowden moved the needle, but not enough. Good thing he got that WR coach from Alabama to leave the real estate business and join his staff at Clemson.

Fun fact: I got even more of the Hatfield Experience when I went to grad school at Rice. Won a share of the SWC title in 94 (A&M was on probation) and beat Texas for the first time in ages in a Rainstorm. Rice was a decent fit as nobody really cared so there were no expectations to live up to. He was fairly anonymous.

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Your mention of Rice made me chuckle... will never forget a


Oct 27, 2022, 7:56 AM

witty comment a co-worker made. We were discussing (over cube walls) him going to Rice. Somebody said - Hey, he's probably the best coach they've ever had... maybe he can do OK, take em to a bowl...

"Ken Hatfield couldn't get Rice in a bowl at a Chinese restaurant".

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The players did not respect Hatfield ...


Oct 26, 2022, 7:39 PM

In fact, if the portal existed, more than 50% of the starters would have left the program. And Hatfield inherited a team and program that was set to make a run for the national championship. It was over the minute Ford was let go -- that said, I've heard Ford state he handled his relationship with Lennon poorly.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 26, 2022, 8:09 PM

He was not a people person and he was not Danny Ford.

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His final 8-3 season was..


Oct 26, 2022, 10:28 PM

much worse than the record indicates. But he absolutely destroyed recruiting. He did not believe in working hard in recruiting. He said that many times. And it showed in the results. When West was hired, we had to recruit for starters in the OL. We were on a negative size differential for years. So much smaller and thinner than the teams we played. It was very sad to watch.

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Re: Ken Hatfield


Oct 27, 2022, 9:11 AM

Sorry if Germans, I haven't caught up on the whole thread -

Anybody remember the home game a banner plane flew over DV:
"Howard built it, Danny filled it, Hatfield killed it"
I remember thinking it was overly brutal.

I was there, pretty sure it was Coach Hatfield's last year.
Go Tigers

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I prefer the McCoys.


Oct 27, 2022, 9:43 AM

To say this gal had some assets is like saying Mount Everest is a nice little hill.

https://youtu.be/TlTKhPkZSJo

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Re: I prefer the McCoys.


Oct 28, 2022, 3:34 PM

I totally enjoyed the visual - but I prefer the Surreal McCoys

https://youtu.be/58SiGKT7_xs


Message was edited by: TigerChE85®


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Re: I prefer the McCoys.


Oct 29, 2022, 8:21 AM [ in reply to I prefer the McCoys. ]

Boy howdy!

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Class of '87


He Wore His Trucker Hat Funny***


Oct 28, 2022, 3:36 PM



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