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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 2:03 PM
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So god says Jacob will receive the blessing instead of the elder Esau. No rhyme or reason given.
Jacob and his mother trick Isaac into thinking he’s blessing Esau but it’s really Jacob.
Some how this shows gods sovereignty and that he has a “plan”.
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 3:40 PM
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It is an unusual story, but I think it does highlight the "God has a plan" idea. Here's why.
There's a thread in Middle Eastern religion that God does what God wants...deal with it. It's VERY heavy in Islam, and a little lighter in Judaism and Christianity.
The Esau story is an example of this; where man's plans don't matter when confronted with God's plans. By human accounting (and according to social custom of the time), the older son should have gotten the inheritance...which he did, at start.
But God had made his plans before they were even born.
Romans 9:11
"Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’" "Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’"
Keep in mind Romans is Paul, but as a Pharisee among Pharisees, I think he's probably pretty accurate as far as Jewish interpretation of patriarchal history. Notice how he tosses the "works issue" in there. I mean what unborn can have either works or faith?
Still, the big issue is that God does what he wants, independent of man. And picks, who he wants, independent of man. Look at Moses, or Abraham, or David. Not exactly shining examples of humanity, and Commandment breakers all. Still, God's choices.
The Esau story is wrapped in a human cover (soup), to explain it in human terms, but the bigger picture is God doing what he wants. In Islam, this idea is carried almost to the point of depression. Since God does what he wants anyway, does ANYTHING man does ever matter? You're basically a bug groveling for grace and compassion, and then you die. 'Islam' means submission, and they do have a submissive viewpoint.
I suppose one could view predestination in the same way in the Christian context, though predestination doesn't come off as quite so hopeless.
So, while the Esau story is kinda weird, I think that's what it's getting at - we're all just on God's rollercoaster.
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 3:47 PM
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>"but Esau I hated"
This is another really weird part of the Esau story. Hate is a pretty strong word. For an unborn? and for God's own creation?
Or, is it a Jewish writer interpreting God's opinion of Isreal's enemy neighbors to the south, Edom? I don't doubt that the writer of the story TRULY felt that God hated Esau. But the question is, did God? Or was the writer's honest, though inaccurate, opinion?
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 5:20 PM
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I think it shows the evolution from a vengeful god that only loved it's chosen nation which was the Israelites to the loving god of the new testament that chose to save all who would hear and believe at that time, to the current view of the biblical god which is one that offers salvation to all. That is not the same god portrayed in Genesis. If so how do you explain the fact that he hated people?
Also, I believe that this was probably a myth created to explain why in fact the younger brother was viewed more favorably and he continued gods line of chosen people while the older led another nation. But it leaves a lot of unanswered questions...
Why was the younger brother chosen over the older?
Was god immoral for ordaining a dishonest act of stealing the birthright? I think this is my biggest problem with the story.
People will say god works through sinful people, and then say a person who does "this" doesn't belong in a pastoral role.
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 6:36 PM
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Yes, I do see it a sort of an apologist view for Israel’s chosen status. Sort of an explanation for ‘why us?’
But I don’t see it as ingenuous in any way. They REALLY believed, then and now, that they are the chosen ones to lead others to God. And they are really, and honestly, looking to explain why them, and not someone else. Stories like this, accurate, or misinterpreted, help to answer that.
For millennia, and for millions of people, dead and alive, a bowl of soup made the difference. Maybe it did, or maybe it didn’t, but they surely believed it did.
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 6:46 PM
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Belief is not to be underestimated or trifled with. I think I've told the story before, but my old Boss was a WW2 vet charged with clearing out Na zi bunkers in France.
When they broke in, after the Germans were killed, they didn't find Satanic posters on the wall, they found Christian crosses and Bibles, evidence that the soldiers had been praying to God to help them in their sacred and holy mission to exterminate 6 million Jews and 20 million slavs.
God was on their side in their mind. They had not one doubt about it, and went to their death believing they were right and praying to God for the strength to carry out his will.
The 9/11 terrorists didn't die thinking they were wrong, either. People don't lie about their faith.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 31, 2025, 5:16 PM
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"But I don’t see it as ingenuous in any way. They REALLY believed, then and now, that they are the chosen ones to lead others to God. "
"People don't lie about their faith."
I don't doubt either of these statements at all. But that doesn't mean a mythological element wasn't added to it.
Nobody has a problem labeling the fanciful tells about George Washington as myths even though they still believe he was a great war general and first president of the United States.
That the Israelite nation descended from Abraham through Jacob is believable. Did it happen over a botched birthright exchange because Esau gave it up for a bowl of stew?
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 31, 2025, 8:15 PM
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>But that doesn't mean a mythological element wasn't added to it.
Sure. Even George had his cherry-tree moment, right?
There's no telling how these stories developed and morphed over time from oral tradition to written text. And each story has to be looked at independently, asking:
1) Why is this story even here? and
2) What all are we to get out of the story?
I generally believe there’s always something to these stories, but it could be anything, of course. In this case, since they were enemies, a little-old fashioned propaganda might be at play.
If I had to take a wild axe guess, I'd think someone looked back one day and wondered "The eldest son ALWAYS gets the birthright. Why are WE now great, and our southern enemies and cousins still nomads?"
What would explain the divergence of our paths? They should be great and we should be lesser, based on our ancestor’s birth position. Let’s rib those rubes and say they gave it all away over the most trivial thing possible…how about a bowl of soup? There’s probably more to it than that, but humiliation is a thing, in war. Here’s two more examples. They’re tangents, but one of my other hobbies is military history…
In WW2, Germany had a propaganda field day in 1939 claiming that “The Poles were so stupid they charged our tanks with their cavalry.” It was all over the papers at the time. But here’s the real story:
At the time, cavalry was still a viable combat arm in certain circumstances, and every nation knew it. The Germans themselves later used cavalry in the swamps of Russia, and one of the best combat units in the whole war was the Russian Popov Mobile Force, made of tanks and cavalry. Horses can still go where no tank would fear to tread, sometimes. Just ask the Afghanis.
Poland had the finest cavalry in the world in 1939, and they were trained to fight armored vehicles of the day, which were little more than armored cars. So how do you humiliate an enemy? You belittle their strongest attributes.
The Battle the Germans were speaking of was the Battle of Krojanty, where Polish cavalry DID charge…at German infantry. And the Poles won, because they were the best cavalry in the world. But in the confusion after the battle, the Germans counterattacked with light tanks, and caught the Poles by surprise, who had to retreat because they didn’t have time to set up their quite good anti-tank defenses.
In a stand-up battle, the Poles would have annihilated the light German tanks. Anti-tank rifles were deadly against tanks with only 10mm of armor at the time. And the poles had lots of anti-tank rifles, and were experts in using them. In simpler terms, the Poles got Pearl-Harbored at Krojanty.
So in effect, the Germans lied their way out of an initial German loss into a fake Polish humiliation. Like the Poles were some sort of modern-day Don Quixotes. The Germans did the same thing in France. French soldiers didn’t retreat in the Battle of France. Their failing was that they SHOULD have.
The French held their positions too long and were surrounded. Again, the Germans twisted the truth. Instead of “The French fought to the death just like the Americans at the Alamo,” the German version of the story was “The French abandoned their nation and fled like cowards.”
So in the case of enemies like Israel and Edom, I can surely see some propaganda war stuff going on. “Our enemies gave up greatness over soup.” That’s one even the Germans would admire.
Just didn’t happen.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
Apr 22, 2025, 9:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Jacob and Esau ] |
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Not strange at all.
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CU Medallion [20182]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 9:08 PM
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Isn't it an interesting parallel with Cain and Able. God spoke with Cain about his reluctance to offer an acceptable sacrifice. Cain killed his younger brother.
Esau and Jacob... Jacob wrestled with God and was blessed - the younger of the two siblings. Neither died, however. Esau also was blessed in life if you read what he has to say to his brother when they finally meet again.
Notice how a man decides to kill over a lack of blessing. But God, well, does not.
David was the youngest of his siblings as well.
Isn't it interesting how Abraham was called out of his family to follow God in faith. From Abraham, God then would grow two different people groups - Jewish and Islamic. Interesting how the Jewish people are of one nationality, but Islamic folks are of multiple nationalities...
Interesting how the Jewish nation is born through God's selection as the chosen people in a more complicated way than people really consider. One was from Sarah's doing, the other by God's doing. God will still work His plan even when man thinks they can help Him along.
Just ramblin' here.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 30, 2025, 9:17 PM
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All good points!
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Clemson Icon [25936]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 31, 2025, 2:16 AM
[ in reply to Re: Jacob and Esau ] |
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Loved all that. As you know, from Abraham came Jews and Arabs; Islam was a separate matter. However, it does not seem merely coincidental, spiritually or historically, that Islam came from the Arabs. Your point is the same. Islam is maybe what God had in mind when He said, "His hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
I agree with your relating Cain/Abel to Isaac/Ishmael. God was no more mad at Cain than He was at Hagar: "Why are you upset? Just do as I ask, like Abel did, and you'll be fine." And Ishmael was sitting on all that wealth. But Cain couldn't turn loose of his desire to self determine good/acceptable, which imo is the human condition and effect of the Fsll. And neither could the descendants of Ishmael. Abraham made a similar decision to Cain's, as you said.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 31, 2025, 9:10 AM
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"His hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
I would be willing to bet that Christianity has claimed the lives of just as many if not more than Islam.
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CU Medallion [20182]
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You do realize there is none who are innocent, I'm sure. But, just for clarity
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Mar 31, 2025, 3:58 PM
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you also acknowledge that it was not the Christians who started the "Crusades" against Islam, right?
Just guessing you have some of that in mind with your statement. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding and will move along.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: You do realize there is none who are innocent, I'm sure. But, just for clarity
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Mar 31, 2025, 4:13 PM
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"You do realize there is none who are innocent"
Sure, but the poster I responded to seemed to be pointing the finger as if only one set of followers has killed others in the name of their religion.
I don't know the history of the crusades, but turn the other cheek comes to mind.
Also, the catholic church killed a lot of "heretics" throughout the years. If you want to say they were just bad apples well a lot of Muslims would say that about jihadists.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: You do realize there is none who are innocent, I'm sure. But, just for clarity
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Mar 31, 2025, 8:38 PM
[ in reply to You do realize there is none who are innocent, I'm sure. But, just for clarity ] |
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I assume you're thinking of the Turks attacking the Byzantine Empire?
Purely as a matter of semantics I would say that Pope Urban II's speech at Clermont 'technically' started the Crusades, as an invasion of the Levant. Sort of scope creep over the fight in Turkey.
But yes, the Pope's speech was a reaction to Muslim pressure in Turkey, so the fight itself had been going on long BEFORE the Crusades started.
One could draw the start line at The Battle of Manzikert 25 years earlier in 1071, which was itself a reaction to Emperor Romanus IV invasion of lands the Muslims had taken earlier...
That's the thing about history. There's always something that led to the thing that led to the thing that led to the thing.
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CU Medallion [20182]
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Re: You do realize there is none who are innocent, I'm sure. But, just for clarity
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Mar 31, 2025, 11:07 PM
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Good points... and Another thing.... see what I did there? 
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
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Mar 31, 2025, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Jacob and Esau ] |
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It’s a strange story in that Esau had favor from Isaac who was favored by God even held up as a Christlike figure but for some reason, even though Jacob did everything the wrong way still got the birthright. Isaac was upset about this. Why not just say no, you don’t deserve it not only because you’re the youngest, but the way you tried to steal it. The story is all wrong from a moral perspective.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
Apr 28, 2025, 3:52 PM
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Gods plan is perfect. Our agreement with it is irrelevant. Look at King David, the "man after God's own heart". Adulterer, murderer.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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How can the clay say to the potter, 'why make me thus?'
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:44 AM
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God chooses what God wants. We deserve no explanation. The fortunate among us seek God and understand many of the mysteries of Him but we have no right to them. They are given by grace.
If you really want to understand seek God's grace. I know that's not really want you want. I know your desire is to justify your ungodly attitude.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: How can the clay say to the potter, 'why make me thus?'
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:02 PM
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"We deserve no explanation"
I think way more of my children than that.
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Clemson Icon [25936]
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Re: How can the clay say to the potter, 'why make me thus?'
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Apr 2, 2025, 8:45 AM
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No, we think more of ourselves than that. You, me, 88, and everyone. It is the human condition. It is the Fall.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: How can the clay say to the potter, 'why make me thus?'
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Apr 2, 2025, 12:28 PM
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I think human beings deserve a lot of credit. I was thinking about this the other day…
Let’s say you’re laying in the bed tonight and start feeling some chest pains that get worse and worse. Your wife decides to call an ambulance. Because of human beings, not god, someone is going to rush to your house in an ambulance, take you to a hospital, where a doctor who has dedicated his life to saving people is going to do everything in his power to keep you alive.
That is amazing to me and it doesn’t line up with the idea that we are all terribly flawed creatures that deserve hell.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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So if your child comes to you all swollen up and flexing his right to...
Apr 4, 2025, 4:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: How can the clay say to the potter, 'why make me thus?' ] |
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demand an explanation from you...don't hand me that. When a child wants to learn from his father he comes humbling seeking instruction.
I can see me demanding answers from my earthly father and being told to sit down and lose the attitude. I never did that, it just wasn't in me. My father taught me how to work and do things right. There were times when he simply said, 'Because I said so.'
I can't say that God has ever given me full understanding of all that I've sought from him but like most children I always get enough to satisfy my curiosity. Where do you think I've come up with my abstract views of time and its relationship to eternity?
I don't make stuff up, I almost always get an answer from God. Sometimes it takes years but the revelation is worth the wait.
I don't believe you want to understand anything about God. I believe your heart is fully turned away from Him and that it pleases you to judge Him wrong and unfaithful. I pray for you but your hard heart is a mountain it seems.
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Dynasty Maker [3507]
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Re: So if your child comes to you all swollen up and flexing his right to...
Apr 5, 2025, 8:14 AM
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I’m glad your faith is strong and brings you peace and comfort, but im just being honest.
Sorry im not going to just fall into a belief system. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a higher power or have peace and comfort myself.
There are flaws with the god presented by the modern Bible and Christian worldview.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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No, you've imagined a God who is perfect because He complies...
Apr 29, 2025, 3:24 AM
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with what you decide is right and wrong.
So here we are, temporal beings with dates of birth and expiration dates in the same century. Somehow within the first half of our lives we establish a set of rules, standards and morals which we think are worth of being eternal.
If you don't like the God of the Bible you might not be so miserable when He sticks you in a place where He is not present. That might be the heaven which awaits you.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Jacob and Esau
Apr 21, 2025, 5:40 PM
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It shows they got ahead of Gods plan.
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Replies: 26
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