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YOUR BALANCE
If the OL sucks show me the numbers
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If the OL sucks show me the numbers

6

Oct 6, 2023, 9:04 AM

Every year for the last 10 that I have been following TNet people have been complaining about OL play. I am convinced it is just an easy whipping boy for people who don't know football to pick on because there are so few stats around it. The two years we won a NC people were talking about how bad OL play was and how we need to fire OL coach blah blah blah. I know we have had bad OL play before, but can someone name a great OL in football right now? I don't know of any standouts, which means they are all about the same. I am sure there are some. Point being it is harder to pick out great OL play than it is to pick out a great skill position group. Talk to any fan of any team and the first thing they harp on is their OL. Spoke to a guy a few months ago who was a Clemson fan. The conversation turned to DJU and the first thing out of the guys mouth was how DJ didn't have time to throw and his bad numbers were because of OL play. I told him that a bad OL didn't keep him from missing a 5 yard screen pass in the dirt. We all know we didn't have a perfect OL but how did we run the ball as good as we did if the OL sucked? So if we suck on OL show me the numbers otherwise you might as well say "the moon is a big rectangle" and then not prove it.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

1

Oct 6, 2023, 9:20 AM

I would like to see a breakdown of yds per carry by downs. I have seen more 0-1 yd plays on first down than 3-4+. Anyone know Tim Bourret?

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Or just watch the games

1
2

Oct 6, 2023, 9:39 AM

We've been stuff on short yardage situations consistently all year. There's also been inconsistency in pass protection.

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There are some stats that attempt to measure it

1

Oct 6, 2023, 9:42 AM

You can look at pressures and stuff for the passing game. Sacks can be misleading because that's sometimes due to QB problems (holding the ball too long, poor footwork in the pocket, etc). There's also "line yards" for the running game, but the only person I know that ever published it was Bill Connelly and his stuff is now all locked behind the ESPN+ pay wall.

Also, sometimes it's really obvious like 2020 when Etienne went from averaging 7.9 ypc over his first 3 seasons down to 5.4. Obviously he didn't become a worse back his SR year. Trevor probably got prassured on a higher % of dropbacks that year too, but I don't know where to find that info.

I do know that Bill Connelly graded our lines highly (top 20ish) in 2018 and 2019 before he went to ESPN and I lost access to his stuff.

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Re: There are some stats that attempt to measure it


Oct 6, 2023, 7:39 PM

QB pressures is a better measure than sacks in this day and age with teams adopting (2 second or less release) made popular by Brady & NE when they reached or won SBs with an offensive line patched together with fringe players-

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can't blame the RBs or you'll get TDed


Oct 6, 2023, 9:45 AM

it seems to be commonly accepted that to play RB, you just walk behind the OL men that is blocking and wait for 1-2 defenders to wrap around him and grab the stationary RB

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So I hear you like Shipley's chances at bringing home this...


Oct 6, 2023, 8:17 PM

season's Heisman Trophy. While I agree with you that Shipley is the greatest RB in the college game today; the Heisman has become more of honor reserved for QBs, as it should be. But hey, I hope you're right, so don't stop the campaign—

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Oline performance is always overblown...........

1

Oct 6, 2023, 9:56 AM

in the "spread" era of College football (say....the last 10-15 years) Clemson's Oline has never been "Elite or Great" nor have they been "atrocious"..........year in and year out they've been decent/adequate. SKILL makes elite teams now.......QB, WR, & RB (to an extent). Our 2016 & 2018 National title teams didn't have "elite" olines, they were "decent".

This Oline looks just like all the other Olines the last 10-15 years...........difference is the SKILL players are lesser than the last 10 years at least

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This right here

1

Oct 6, 2023, 10:07 AM

If I were to rate our running back AND WR corps the past 3 years to the ones since tajh Boyd, I hate to say it but they come in close to last. The RBs can't compare to Ellington, ettiene, Gallman, etc. The only one they might be better than was the year hot rod McDowell was our RB.

The receivers, while the young ones have shown promise, couldn't hold a candle to nuk, sammy, Higgins, Bryant, Renfrew, Ross, williams etc. Heck I'd even throw Cornell powell in there.

That's not to say they aren't good, brown, stellato, and Williams are going to be or already are studs. But we clearly don't have the same level of elite playmakers that we had in recent years.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

6

Oct 6, 2023, 9:56 AM

It only takes substandard play from ONE OLineman to create an impression of overall poor play for the entire OL unit.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 10:00 AM

The numbers are the stats and at #27 in yards per game, we do not suck but are not where we would like to be either. The OL has done ok with the limited speed we have at running back and the offense is getting better as Cade gets more experience.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

1

Oct 6, 2023, 10:04 AM

Remember when we used to decide who played in the natty only with numbers? You don’t need a super computer to tell you Cade was running for his life against CSU for the first quarter in a game our OL should be blowing guys off the line. Sure they only got one sack in the game but that doesn’t tell the story of a lack of protection forcing CK into bad decisions. I really don’t understand the sunshine pumping worship of our position coaches, they get paid top tier salaries so why is it unreasonable for fans to expect consistent top tier results?

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 6:32 PM

I don't care one way or the other about the coaches, but your method is all based on the "eye test" and that does not work either because every OL has breakdowns. Sometimes the defense wins. So other than just objectively saying you are good.. you are bad.. what do you base it on? There has to be a standard. Just watching a game doesn't work because you can have bad games. So I will ask you again show me the number that says we are bad or good. One guy said Texas had a better OL than Clemson, but they have given up the same number of sacks as us so what makes them elite? The height/weight chart?

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

3

Oct 6, 2023, 10:04 AM

I am frustrated with the OL. That's more from comparing it to previous seasons and a couple of specific plays. To me, it hasn't looked the same since Georgia blew it up the first week of 2021.

I just don't expect a player from Charleston Southern to literally roll a Tiger offensive lineman multiple times a game.

I pulled the stats from here: https://data.clemsontigers.com/

There IS something interesting in here. The ypc is higher this season than it has been over the last 3 seasons. Of course there is a BUT, the Tigers are on pace for more negative rushing yardage over that same time frame. It's not the be all end all, just a piece of the puzzle.

And to address sack yardage. Tiger QBs have been sacked 9 times for 67 (7.4 avg) negative yards on the season. 2022: 28-176 (6.28 avg) 2021: 21-133 (6.3 avg) 2020: 20-153 (7.6 avg). If 2023 stays on its pace: 23-174

2023
191 carries (13 games/5 games = 2.6; 2.6x191 497 carries)
1043 gain (2712 gain)
121 loss (314 loss)
922 net (2398 net)
4.8 ypc

2022
546 carries
2773 gain
282 loss
2491 net
4.6 ypc

2021
489 carries
2412 gain
229 loss
2183 net
4.5 ypc

2020
411 carries
2122 gain
276 loss
1846 net
4.5 ypc

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

1

Oct 6, 2023, 10:14 AM

Another stat that isn't quite buried in here is the longest rush of 2020 was a 72 yarder for ETN. The rest of the squad longs:

Trevor: 34
Lyn-J: 21
Mellusi: 38
Rencher: 50 (!!!)
Pace: 16
DJU: 30
Dukes: 29
Bowman: 10
Pho: 7
Spector: 19

2023 (I know it's only 5 games)
Shipley: 19
Mafah: 49
Thomas: 19
Klub: 17
Rigby: 35 (!!!)
Adams: 13
Haynes: 17
Brown: 23
Green: 2
Segars: 3

The homerun threat is missing so the longs aren't as long and the chunk plays are fewer. You'd think that would drive down the average per carry but that's not the case so far in 2023. Stats are funny.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 11:02 AM [ in reply to Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers ]

Thanks for the numbers. What I see is that the Clemson OL is not as terrible as people claim. I am not saying we are elite and not saying we don't need improvement but OL play is not a huge problem. People can say Austin is a bad recruiter and terrible coach and that's fine I don't know the guy and don't care. I am just sick of people blaming OL play for every ill that comes down the pike.

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Could they consistently convert....


Oct 6, 2023, 8:24 PM

a 3rd and 1 or 2 against the vaunted dlines of CS or FA? Rhetorical & end of thread—

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but can someone name a great OL in football right now?


Oct 6, 2023, 10:22 AM

Texas, Jawja, Michigan…hmm what else do all of those teams have in common. Hint check the polls.

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Re: but can someone name a great OL in football right now?


Oct 6, 2023, 10:53 AM

I can name top 5 teams as well, but you say they have great OL play based on what? What they look like? Height/weight chart?

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Re: but can someone name a great OL in football right now?

1

Oct 6, 2023, 11:03 AM [ in reply to but can someone name a great OL in football right now? ]

Here are some numbers. Texas has given up 9 sacks this year/ Clemson has given up 9 sacks. What makes Texas "elite"?

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One number that stuck out to me in the


Oct 6, 2023, 10:31 AM

breakdown for the Wake game is so far this season Cade has been pressured on 33% of his drop backs. This time last year DJ had been pressured on 28% of his drop backs. Is this a bad number or a huge change? I don't know but I will say that I thought that the oline was supposed to be a strength of the team this year. Don't think they're horrible but I wouldn't exactly call them a strength either.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 11:07 AM

Without pointing fingers at particular players, look at our red zone offensive efficiency.

We can't run the ball in the red zone. Troubling.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct


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Screw Calford.


Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 4:02 PM

I do agree that short yardage seems more of a pronounced problem this year. Part of that lies with the RBs. Shipley does not equal the previous RBs we have had. He falls down at the first touch on a lot of plays. OL definitely shares the blame in that area as well.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 1:30 PM

Just look at the running yardages and long runs from Shipley and Mafah - They simply are not there so far this season!

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 1:49 PM

It was noticeable that pass protection was poor with Cade having to hurry throws before the Cuse game. It was much better in that game. Runs got stuffed but that is not only on the OL. Overall, the OL is looking much better at this stage of the season.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

3

Oct 6, 2023, 2:29 PM

This is a much more complicated assessment than most football fans would have you believe.

99% of OLs have weaknesses. The ones who don't have 4-5 upperclassmen who are future NFL OL, and there aren't many if any of those in college football.

With that said, how bad an OL looks depends on where those weaknesses are and whether or not the skills players (mostly the QB) has a skillset that can balance where the OL lacks.

Possible weaknesses for individuals:
slow, weak, poor communication, poor focus, don't see blitzes pre-snap, don't adjust to disguised blitzes in-play, play down to opponent

Possible weaknesses for OL groups:
don't fit blocking scheme(zone or man), out of sync with slides and when to double/help, poor run blocking, poor pass blocking, play down to opponent (can be a group thing as well)

Our 2020 OL was able to pass block fairly well, but struggled opening holes in the run game even with Etienne in the backfield.

FSU's OL was horrible with pass blocking in 2016 but because of their blocking scheme and being able to get in the way of the defense for a split second, Dalvin Cook ran all over people at times without hardly getting touched.

Clemson's OL in 21 and 22 had a problem that did not mesh well with the skills of it's QB. The line lacked consistency which is a terrible thing when you have a QB who has a tendency to see ghosts and struggles to keep his eyes downfield in the face of the rush. DJ was constantly making choices that didn't match what fans were seeing on a particular play.

This year it seems our OL has carried over some of it's consistency issues but a major struggle seems to be that we are not incredibly quick off the snap. That's why you see CSU players have success in what appears to be a talent mismatch, because even if a player is less talented he can win a battle by getting to the attack point first.

I think this is why Clemson struggles so much in short yardage situations this season as well. In a 1 or 2 to-go situation, typically DL know they can try to jump the snap and must take chances to get a stop. That's crushing us right now because our OL aren't reacting quick enough to match the opponent.

I think that's also why Mafah looks to be the better runner at the moment because our OL works well with a patient back who lets them set up the blocks.

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Significant advantage...


Oct 6, 2023, 7:09 PM

Significant talent advantage (OL vs opp DL)in all but 2 games over the last 3 regular seasons. Of course we have faced a 'murderers row' of Dlines this season in: CharSouthern, Puke,

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Significant advantage...


Oct 6, 2023, 7:10 PM

Significant talent advantage (OL vs opp DL)in all but 2 games over the last 3 regular seasons. Of course we have faced a 'murderers row' of Dlines this season in: CharSouthern, Puke, FA, and Cuse-

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers


Oct 6, 2023, 8:32 PM

The oline is just not that good this year. Average yes.

There is no push generally speaking. Are you confident when we line up on 3 and 4th and 1 against any decent defense. I am not.

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Re: If the OL sucks show me the numbers

1

Oct 6, 2023, 11:58 PM

Our OL literally just got the highest weekly grade by PFF. This was about 24 hours after all these "experts" screamed Dabo needs to FIRE THOMAS AUSTIN! Its so tiresome.

We're in the best era of Clemson football history. I enjoy my TigerPluse is at 73% bc these experts don't like being told they're all a bunch of donkeys. lol

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Bingo


Oct 7, 2023, 8:25 AM

Our OL hasn’t been the reason for missing the playoffs the last two seasons and it’s not this year either.

The girls have got to have their daily dose of griping though. Some women live alone do nothing but complain.

partsunknown

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