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Heisman Winner [85677]
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Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 23, 2015, 6:51 AM
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I have never really been motivated one way or the other on the Flag issue until now. I have one question, which if answered, should give you the right answer about its removal at this time. I have heard all the reasoning about why it should be taken down. My question is a different angle,
How does keeping the Confederate Flag up at this point in time BENEFIT the STATE of South Carolina, or any individual IN the State of South Carolina, in any way, shape or form?
I can't come up with one reason to answer that question in the affirmative, and if I can't, then in my mind it is time for it to be relegated to the museums with the other symbols of history past.
And to those who say that the liberalist agenda will just move on to the next issue, I say, that is how society evolves. We will never agree on 100% of everything, all the time. But, let us at least agree on removing this particular source of division within our state now.
Exiting soapbox in 3..2..1..now.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 23, 2015, 6:54 AM
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> How does keeping the Confederate Flag up at this point in time BENEFIT the STATE of South Carolina, or any individual IN the State of South Carolina, in any way, shape or form?
It doesn't. There isn't a single good reason to keep this flag up. I'm not sure why people want to keep a flag that represents traitors that were against american soldiers and who wanted to keep the establishment of slavery.
It boggles the mind.
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All-In [26968]
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That's the thing to me. Liking both the US Flag and the
Jun 23, 2015, 7:45 AM
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Confederate flag would be like flying both a Clemson and South Carolina flag. The Confederacy is the opposite of the United States...the enemy.
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TigerNet Elite [76421]
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The Moultrie flag or Gadsden flag, although from the Revolutionary
Jun 23, 2015, 7:56 AM
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War instead of the Civil War, would be better symbols for representing state's rights and resisting big government tyranny.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 23, 2015, 7:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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It doesn't represent traitors...it represents the people that fought under it (black and white) and died in a pretty big part of American history. This was just a perfect excuse because some ignorant idiot used the flag in the wrong sense....If the KKK would have never used this flag it could be flown every day and no one would say anything, it is sad that ppl associate it with racism because that is far from what it means. And how is it considered being a traitor...the south thought things were very unfair and fought for what they believed at the time was right! And for those that are very ignorant the civil war wasn't even fought over slavery FYI like many choose to believe.
Another question, the KKK used the cross as well including burning it and toting it around all the time...so should we take all crosses down in front of churches and view the cross as a racist symbol, bc it was right there with the flag during those terrible years?!?! No we don't even question that, people can use any symbol for hate and people choose to associate it with racism when that's couldn't be any further from what it really stands for. Taking it down will solve all of our racism issues HAHAHA I bet it does absolutely nothing towards that, but its an excuse for some to get what they want....sad. IMO I could care less if the thing comes down, put it in a museum...bc ppl that know what it stands for and understand it will always do that no matter if its sitting on the lawn in Columbia or not....just think its sad that this is what is blamed after some idiot decided to go crazy and just happened to be ignorant and use the flag the wrong way...he also burned the American flag just FYI, so there were other issues...
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All-In [26968]
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Have you ever read the official SC secession document
Jun 23, 2015, 8:01 AM
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That described why they were seceding? It's all about their right to own slaves. How anyone can say that the war wasn't about slavery is beyond my comprehension.
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All-In [26968]
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MVP [549]
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Re: Here it is...see for yourself.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:07 AM
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Wow thanks Prodigal. Pretty powerful proof . I pray my home state does the right thing That is the people's house and should represent All South Carolinians.
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Varsity [104]
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TigerNet Elite [76421]
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Funny. It sounds as if they expected the Constitution to be followed.
Jun 23, 2015, 9:06 AM
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As we know today, the Constitution is merely a suggestive guide and if you feel really, Really, REALLY, strongly about something, but don't want to bother following the amendment process, just ignore it. You get bonus points if you are a "Constitutional Scholar."
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Funny. It sounds as if they expected the Constitution to be followed.
Jun 23, 2015, 10:16 PM
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Exactly. The 3/5th compromise ingrained slavery into The Constitution.
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Game Changer [2038]
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LOL yep...All about slavery...proves my point that there are
Jun 23, 2015, 8:27 AM
[ in reply to Here it is...see for yourself. ] |
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still that think that's what it was all about...maybe you should study a little more. You do realize the North owned slaves as well...and the last recorded slave was freed after the war from a northern state...Lincoln didn't want expansion of slavery...he didn't necessarily disagree he just knew this would probably take care of itself over time. It was one reason of a few but thank you for showing that this is the only important one...
Like I said in my earlier post...this flag represents the men (black and white) that died for what they believed in...and yes there were many blacks that fought for the south and thought they were doing the right thing...it wasn't a black vs white war believe it or not. You should study a little more about it and the other reasons behind the war. BUT like I said I could care less if they take it down bc I do see the hurt it causes some but I don't believe its from the civil war...its from the civil rights era that some ignorant white supremacist groups decided to use that as there symbol and unfortunately used it in the complete wrong way...so I understand and don't disagree with taking it down...but that fact that this has come to argument over the loss of 9 people is sad. If I am not mistaken not long ago Haley said the flag didn't need to come down and it was a non issue...now the heat and all of sudden we should take it down? HAHA
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Varsity [104]
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Game Changer [2038]
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I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 8:39 AM
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slaves that were forced to fight, not saying that...but if your trying to make an argument that no blacks willingly fought that is laughable.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 8:51 AM
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I don't see the humor. The evidence that they did is anecdotal at best and it wasn't until right before the war's end that allowing slaves to actually fight officially allowed by the CSA. Yes, a lot of blacks served in the Confederate army, as stewards, cooks, musicians and other service type roles.
History is indeed written by those who won wars, but it is also whitewashed by those who defend the losing side.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 8:51 AM
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was officially*
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely ] |
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Agree to disagree...you nor I were present so there could have been many that did fight under their own will because they wanted...I don't think all slaves were beaten and treated like dirt like most have the idea of also...so some of these slaves I am willing to bet fought because they wanted to and felt loyal to the south. And I never said I am defending the South...I am defending the idea that people think the war was over slavery and then link that to the flag being racist...that is a joke and ignorant not knowing the history of the war.
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Ring of Honor [22118]
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Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 10:54 AM
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How could they fight under free will if they were slaves to begin with?
And if they did....they must not have known the entire reason.
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Game Changer [2038]
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You do realize there were more "free blacks" in the South
Jun 23, 2015, 11:10 AM
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than in the northern states...many of which owned slaves themselves??
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Ring of Honor [22118]
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Re: You do realize there were more "free blacks" in the South
Jun 23, 2015, 2:18 PM
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Like twenty of them?
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Game Changer [2038]
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Try about 36,000...now tell me, if every slave was treated
Jun 23, 2015, 2:20 PM
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like a POS and hated...why on earth would they stay in the South??
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Ring of Honor [22118]
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Re: Try about 36,000...now tell me, if every slave was treated
Jun 23, 2015, 2:52 PM
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Are you seriously gonna argue for slavery? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Game Changer [2038]
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Please tell me where i have argued for slavery?!?
Jun 23, 2015, 3:11 PM
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Some of you are seriously like talking to a wall...I was simply stating a point that there were prob more blacks that willingly fought for the south than you are making it out to be...which in turn goes with what I was saying about this flag being a racist symbol a dumb thing...this was am d##n battle flag it wasn't even the CSA flag!
I am in no way shape or form or whatever stupid conclusion that you can somehow draw insinuating that slavery was even 1 percent right...I full heartedly disagree with that notion but people want to draw all these conclusions about the flag when the North was doing the SAME THING!!!!! And I was just proving a point that there are many misconceptions and ignorant people that don't know the facts, like this one which I bet many don't know.
Like I mentioned before and would love an explanation...if the confederate "Battle" flag is viewed as a racist symbol (and we all know this stems from the civil rights era and the KKK) then why is the cross not, bc it was right there with it and in many cases was burned and carried by the KKK...what is one image you think of when you think of the KKK....a burning cross and crosses at their little meetings...so again people will use anything even if they have no idea wth they are talking about for an agenda...with that being said I don't disagree with it being taking off the lawn but put it along with every monument in a dedicated park if that's how we are going to do it...take every monument off the state grounds then...why would the confederate monument be ok but not the flag?
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely
Jun 23, 2015, 10:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: I fully agree that there def were more than likely ] |
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Most soldiers (black or white) did not know the reason they were fighting. "Rich man's war, poor mans fight." The Union army as a whole did not see itsself as fighting to free slaves. After the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, the Union Army deserted in droves. In addition to that fact, almost no soldiers were reenlisting. The primary reason was that they did not want to fight to free slaves.They wanted to preserve The Union. They were not fighting for abolition. Slavery was a driving force behind the war, but the soldiers as a whole did not see themselves as fighting for or against slavery.
William B. Hesseltine, Lincoln and the War Governors, Chapter 14 the Governors and Conscription, pages 290-291.
James M. McPherson, What They Fought For, 1861-1865, pages 62-68.
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Game Changer [1649]
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Re: Here it is...see for yourself.
Jun 23, 2015, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to Here it is...see for yourself. ] |
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Never said the "Causes of Secession" didn't state that "slavery was the issue." Clearly it was the issue of contention between the north and South. My point was conveniently left "unaddressed" in your response. The north was not active in freeing slaves any more than the South was active and promulgating slavery. The issue that resulted in the establishment of the Confederate States of America is the sovereignty of the individual states. Go back and read the Constitution of the United States. It's clear that our founding fathers intended for the states to have all control over their own governance EXCEPT WHERE CLEARLY STATED IN THE CONSTITUTION. That's not what we have today, and we're crumbling as a result. Slavery would have resolved itself if it had been left to the states. There was never broad acceptance of the concept. The majority of U.S. citizens at that time did not own slaves, and never would. But the Southern states drew a line in the sand over this issue, and subsequently went to war to defend that belief. But Abe, the great liberator of the slaves, didn't care two hoots about slavery. He just wanted a bigger federal government and got it. Now we're stuck with it.
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Orange Blooded [2378]
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Finally, someone speaks the truth.
Jun 23, 2015, 11:03 AM
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The IRS, social security, a huge growing deficit, the ACA, bloated welfare rolls, etc. are the result of Mr. Lincoln's War to Prevent Southern Independence.
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Orange Blooded [3706]
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Early 20th century
Jun 23, 2015, 10:59 PM
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grew the federal government much more than the War Between the States. The depression and WWII put the US on the track we're still on today. A couple of men named Roosevelt come to mind.
Then we have the LBJ years.....
This has been a long slide into the mess we have today.
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Gridiron Giant [15498]
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Re: Early 20th century
Jun 23, 2015, 11:32 PM
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> grew the federal government much more than the War
> Between the States. The depression and WWII put the
> US on the track we're still on today. A couple of
> men named Roosevelt come to mind.
>
> Then we have the LBJ years.....
>
> This has been a long slide into the mess we have
> today.
Lol....capped by Reagan who's budget deficit exceeded all other presidents combined.
Not to mention the Republican "de-regulation" frenzy and "trickle-down" economics that led to the economic collapse of 2008.
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Clemson Icon [24717]
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It is interesting how the arguments of the late 1800s for
Jun 23, 2015, 11:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Here it is...see for yourself. ] |
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slavery are eerily similar to the political arguments we are hearing today on the right.
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Clemson Icon [24717]
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The Civil War was about States' Rights -
Jun 23, 2015, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to Here it is...see for yourself. ] |
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A states' right to own slaves. It's pretty straight forward - Establish the basis in The Constitution to hold slaves as property and to be able to travel to other states with their property and not have their property placed at risk as they traveled through non-slave states and to prevent non-slave states from encouraging slaves to flee. The first power they claim as a new nation is the ability to wage war.
There has been a concerted effort since the war to alter the true history to make some Southern whites feel better about themselves and their ancestors.
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Game Changer [1649]
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Re: Have you ever read the official SC secession document
Jun 23, 2015, 8:25 AM
[ in reply to Have you ever read the official SC secession document ] |
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The ignorance of our history by some of you "posters" is astounding. Rather than accept the garbage being spewed to you by liberal professors adn talking heads on the "boob tube," why not do a little investigation of your own. The war of northern agression was not about slavery. Read Honest Abe's personal journal and you'll discover that he wrote, "If there was a way to keep the Union intact without freeing the slaves I would do it." He was a typical Washington politician who believed in "big government." As such, he knew the only way the government could continue to grow was to keep the South from seceding. So he latched on to an issue that would garner "popular support" and rode it into the ground. According the US Census data, there were more slaves in the north than in the south both prior to, during and after the war. That's true in aggregate and "per capita" numbers. So how is it possible that people in the north cared about slaves and people in the South, or as some refer to us as the enemy, didn't care about slaves? Use your head for something other than a hat rack and you won't be so easily fooled by those who want to rule you. Are there still race "issues" in the South? Sure there are. But they aren't nearly as severe as race "issues" in the north. Yet we continue to allow the media and slick talking politicians to hand the label of "racists" on the south, and that's wrong. Wake up! I don't care what they do with the flag. But it sure would be nice if we could expose all the lies and deal with the facts. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Go Tigers!
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All-In [26968]
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So which "liberal professor" wrote...
Jun 23, 2015, 8:28 AM
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the South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession?
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Re: Have you ever read the official SC secession document
Jun 23, 2015, 8:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: Have you ever read the official SC secession document ] |
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You should read the declaration for causes of secession.
If you're able to understand it, you will realize real quick the civil war was solely about slavery.
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Game Changer [2038]
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EXACTLY!!!!! THank you..but some dont get it
Jun 23, 2015, 8:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: Have you ever read the official SC secession document ] |
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and choose to be simple minded and believe it was all about slavery...Lincoln didn't disagree with slavery he didn't want it expanding outward...there were slaves in the north and if im not mistaken the last recorded slave was freed from a northern state. But you cant change peoples' minds...sad they don't even know their own country's history.
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All-In [26968]
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I'm not saying the North was some innocent party.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:34 AM
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That is not my point. I have not even mentioned anything about the North in any of my posts. My point is that the flag representing the Confederacy is representing something that was formed in defense of the right to own slaves. And that is wrong. The Confederacy was wrong. Saying that doesn't mean that the Union, or the North, were some kind of angelic beings.
I was born and raised in SC, never lived anywhere else. I've probably spent about 1 month of my life total outside of the South. I never want to leave. But it ain't the Confederacy I love.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: I'm not saying the North was some innocent party.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:47 AM
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I get what you are saying but there again, it was not formed solely on the defending the right to own states...this was one of many reasons the south seceded... slavery was a part of it but was not the ONLY factor that made them want to leave....and yes slavery was wrong and no person in the right mind would agree that it is...but the confederate battle flag does not and should not represent slavery or racism is my whole argument...it is a memorial for the people that died fighting for what they believed in.
Just a question for you...what makes this different from the Revolutionary War in that we fought bc we were not happy with the taxes and the way things were governed so we in a sense decided to secede from the British...I mean yes slavery was part of it but if you think that was all the war was about then this is a simple minded convo that will last forever with no resolve.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Re: I'm not saying the North was some innocent party.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:51 AM
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Please enlighten us on these other reasons?
Your side keeps saying there are all of these other reasons, but they all seem to involve Slavery.
The revolutionary war was about freedom, the civil war was the complete opposite. The South fought to continue to deprive people of basic human rights.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I'm not saying the North was some innocent party.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:57 AM
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I'd like to see an answer to this question as well.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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The coot is right. ;-) There was only one other factor to
Jun 23, 2015, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'm not saying the North was some innocent party. ] |
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secession that wasn't directly slave-related...tariffs.
Everything else (as far as I can tell) was directly related to the institution of slavery. The "state's right" to remain slave-holding, to have them returned to their "owners" if they escaped, and the "unfair" property taxes on slaves. Don't forget that the non-slave holding states had more representatives in Congress and wanted to stop the spread of slavery in the west. Then the final straw was the Repubs electing that Lincoln fellow.
For those that think Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves until later, your ancestors didn't agree with you...from 1860: "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."
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Orange Elite [5125]
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you do realize that the 'final straw' to SC
Jun 23, 2015, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to EXACTLY!!!!! THank you..but some dont get it ] |
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was the election of Lincoln because he intended to abolish slavery? You should read some actual historical documents and not believe the revisionist history that's out there.
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Hall of Famer [9000]
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Varsity [104]
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Re: fantasy facts in there
Jun 23, 2015, 8:42 AM
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But the south only had "3/5 slaves," not "full slaves." You also have to adjust the numbers for inflation and don't forget to carry the 2.
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Hall of Famer [9000]
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: set of animated maps
Jun 23, 2015, 5:34 PM
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Not sure about those numbers, but there were indeed more "free blacks" in the south compared to the North...around 35 thousand from what I remember reading.
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Orange Blooded [2378]
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Why would the South secede from the Union for a right that
Jun 23, 2015, 8:42 AM
[ in reply to Have you ever read the official SC secession document ] |
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already existed? Slavery was provided for in the Constitution. The North could have never obtained the number of states necessary to amend the Constitution. If Lincoln had just let the 7 Southern states that initially seceded go peacefully, there never would have been the most destructive war in US history. These 7 states would have been isolated from the rest of the world politically and would have been forced to end slavery. Instead, Lincoln caved to Northern economic interests to force the South back into the Union. The War was about the right to self-government and the true meaning of the Constitution. If George Washington was a patriot, then Lee and Jackson cannot be considered rebels. Unfortunately, the winners write the history books. Most of the country has been brain-washed into believing lies.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Re: Why would the South secede from the Union for a right that
Jun 23, 2015, 8:45 AM
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It was about the fugitive slave laws. The northern states weren't returning runaway slaves and the slave holding states saw the writing on the wall.
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Orange Blooded [2378]
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And I'm sure that the South did not believe foreign
Jun 23, 2015, 10:54 AM
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governments would be any more willing to return slaves than the sister states that had agreed to do so. My point is the South had nothing to gain concerning slavery by seceding. So the War was about tariffs, a strong central government vs. a limited central government (the true intent of the Founding Fathers), and the right to self-government.
"When in the course of human events . . . " was just as applicable in 1860 as it was in 1776.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Enlighten us, please. I'll give you tafiffs, but what else?
Jun 23, 2015, 9:13 AM
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If you say "state's rights", please explain which rights you are talking about. If you say "taxes", please explain which taxes SC had a problem with.
TIA
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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Orange Immortal [62708]
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Re: Have you ever read the official SC secession document
Jun 24, 2015, 8:33 PM
[ in reply to Have you ever read the official SC secession document ] |
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You better do a better job at researching your history then, bc it definitely wasn't fought to have slaves. Slaves were in this country over 2 centuries before there was a confederate flag. 1619 for America, and earlier for the Spanish in America. The confederate was first introduce in 1861 as a battle flag for the 13 colonies, the confederate states. Now the stars and stripes was the flown over America in 1777. Stars and stripes was flying almost 100 year before the confederate battle flag!!! The first American owned slaves were brought in by a crippled Dutch ship in 1619. They traded 20 Africans to the settlers, and they were to work as slaves under hard labor for 7 years, and they were given a piece of land and their freedom after the 7 years....
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Orange Elite [5125]
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go read the "Declaration of immediate causes
Jun 23, 2015, 8:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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which Induce and Cause the Secession of SC from the Federal Union", issued in 1860 by the SC government which explains why the state seceded.
Then come back and tell us why.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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oops. I didn't see the other post mentioning this.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:12 AM
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I should have read the whole thread first.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Proves my point
Jun 23, 2015, 8:27 AM
[ in reply to go read the "Declaration of immediate causes ] |
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still that think that's what it was all about...maybe you should study a little more. You do realize the North owned slaves as well...and the last recorded slave was freed after the war from a northern state...Lincoln didn't want expansion of slavery...he didn't necessarily disagree he just knew this would probably take care of itself over time. It was one reason of a few but thank you for showing that this is the only important one...
Like I said in my earlier post...this flag represents the men (black and white) that died for what they believed in...and yes there were many blacks that fought for the south and thought they were doing the right thing...it wasn't a black vs white war believe it or not. You should study a little more about it and the other reasons behind the war. BUT like I said I could care less if they take it down bc I do see the hurt it causes some but I don't believe its from the civil war...its from the civil rights era that some ignorant white supremacist groups decided to use that as there symbol and unfortunately used it in the complete wrong way...so I understand and don't disagree with taking it down...but that fact that this has come to argument over the loss of 9 people is sad. If I am not mistaken not long ago Haley said the flag didn't need to come down and it was a non issue...now the heat and all of sudden we should take it down? HAHA
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Orange Phenom [14559]
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Let me quote the Confederate VP Alexander Stephens
Jun 23, 2015, 9:58 AM
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one more time.
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
The foundation, the cornerstone, the most important principle that the government was founded upon, was not just slavery, but the great "TRUTH" that the negro was an inferior race, and his only acceptable place in the world was as a slave.
That statement is utterly indefensible.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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LOL
Jun 23, 2015, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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"If the KKK had never used the flag, it could be flown every day and nobody would say anything"
And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle
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Game Changer [2038]
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That makes absolutely not sense... i am saying that the flag
Jun 23, 2015, 10:14 AM
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is only hated bc of a group of idiots that represented it the wrong way...simply saying that it is a battle flag and a monument of the men that died under it...it in no way shape or form represents racism...or shouldn't, but it is bc of the KKK and that is the only reason. this wouldn't even be an argument if they were a bunch of ignorant idiots.
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110%er [6938]
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Game Changer [2038]
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Yea you are prob right...just intersting i have brought
Jun 23, 2015, 2:18 PM
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that up a few times and no one can explain...the burning cross and the cross at every single "secret meeting" is never talked about but a misrepresented flag is...come on
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Gridiron Giant [15498]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 23, 2015, 9:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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> right! And for those that are very ignorant the
> civil war wasn't even fought over slavery FYI like
> many choose to believe.
>
> Another question, the KKK used the cross as well
> including burning it and toting it around all the
> time...so should we take all crosses down in front of
> churches and view the cross as a racist symbol, bc it
> was right there with the flag during those terrible
> years?!?!
2 points on why your wrong:
1.) Flip open a history book and read South Carolina's "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union. You will see slave and slavery mentioned 26 times. They seccession decision was based on their constitutional argument that each state had soveignty and the "non-slave holding states" could not force SC to give up it's slaves. Among the many statements it makes this is the most illuminating: "States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."
I've heard it was fought over "States Rights", which is partially true. What you clearly don't realize is that the state right they were fighting for was what they saw as their right to hold a slaves. It was fostered by the wealthiest class of South Carolina because THEIR fortunes depended on slavery. The Civil War was fought over money and property, nothing more.
2.) The KKK used "burning crosses" as their symbol, not the Holy Cross.
Finally, I was raised in SC and I was taught to "revere our honorable ancestors" just like you were. However, my parents and grandparents and your parents and grandparents said NOTHING when the "honorable" flag was used by the KKK and the powers of institutional discrimination. You cannot now ignore that and say "it's our heritage". Why didn't "good southerners" protest the flag being used for clearly racist purposes in the 20th century???
That flag should be given a burial and be forgotten. The Civil War was a fools errand, fostered by the wealthy elite for their own money and greed which devastated the South and it's countryside for 3 generations. They sold "States Rights" to the poor population, our ancestors, so they would fight and dye for them.
The Confederate idea died as it should have died. It surrendered it's blood, it's honor and it's common sense at Appomattox in April, 1865.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 24, 2015, 7:52 AM
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1. Yes I agree I am not saying it was not about slavery at all, but that was not the sole reason for the Civil War...Lincoln wanted a stronger federal government and control and while we agree it was wrong back then slavery was part of life..I mean the south didn't even bring slaves over they came over on slave ships which the American flag flew over. I mean it was about more than just slavery, it was taxes, states rights, tarrifs and the fact that the North wanted full control and the South didn't like that.
2. The fact that it was burning means nothing...I guarantee if they burned a confederate battle flag during those times this issue would still be going on...the cross was still something that was associated with that group...and another thing, go look up pictures and tell me what flag you see more of than the confederate flag...that's right the American flag was just as much part of that group as the confederate flag!! You can also read statements from the CSA sons or veterans groups out there that say they do not agree with the KKK and actually get pretty upset that it was used in that way...bc that is not what it was meant for at all. But like I have said on here multiple times I don't care either way, take it down put it in a memorial park somewhere, but its sad that what happened has caused this uproar that the flag somehow caused this...and the generation that I am part of are a little ignorant to the real fact...honestly I believe social media has a big part in this.... everyone feels like they are owed something and see something online and it fuels things like never before. Whether the flag is up or in a museum, the ppl that respect it for what it is, that will not change anything.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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I think I may have found the disconnect in this discussion.
Jun 24, 2015, 9:41 AM
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Everyone seems to be combining 2 very different issues
1. Why did the south secede.
2. Why was the war fought.
These are 2 very different issues, IMO. The south seceded to protect the institution of slavery which was crucial to the economic stability of the entire region. There didn't have to be a war at this point. The north could have simply disbanded their military in the region and pulled out, leaving the south to do whatever they wanted.
The north decided it wanted to keep the south in the union at all costs, primarily for the economics/wealth the south provided, and started a war.
So, I believe that, in a way, we are all right on this.
However, regardless of why any of this happened, I still believe it's time to take the flag down.
Peace.
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Game Changer [2038]
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Very good point!
Jun 24, 2015, 1:41 PM
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I think you are exactly right...I mean back then what the south was doing they thought was completely normal bc slavery was a normal thing...even the angelic north was doing the same thing, they just didn't want it to spread westward. The North could have easily just let the South do its thing and it would have died on its own I am sure...maybe not as quickly but things would have been the same. But you have a great point...the South seceded bc of that as possibly the main reason but there were other reasons on top of that they didn't agree with but Lincoln couldn't just let it go...he wanted to force them to hop on board.
And I also agree like I have said, while I don't totally agree with why the flag is considered racist, but if for some reason society sees it that way and we are hurting feelings then move it to a memorial park or something...I am fine with that...but the ppl are acting like the flag being down or removed will solve the race issues...it wont.
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Re: I think I may have found the disconnect in this discussion.
Jun 25, 2015, 6:04 PM
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They as in the south
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 27, 2015, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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> the south thought things were very unfair and fought for what they believed at the time was right!
Fighting for something you believe in isn't, in and of itself, praiseworthy. ISIS also believes in what they are fighting for... That is not to say that I think the confederacy is the same as ISIS, I am simply saying that the confederates were fighting for a terrible cause.
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Asst Coach [807]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. - to boggled
Jun 23, 2015, 8:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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You boggle my mind you ignorant moron.
The flag does not represent traitors and American soldiers fought on both sides of the war. The majority of the people who fought for the confederacy did not own slaves nor fight for the establishment (moron - slavery had been around for a few thousand years by then). They fought against tyranny (just as in 1776 against taxation by the North on goods the South were selling overseas). Slavery existed under the U.S. flag many more years than under the confederate flag. If the self-righteous North was so against slavery then why did it take the North (Lincoln) over two years after the war started to abolish slavery in the North - when the North was losing the war!
The US has never treated anybody worse than the South was treated after the Civil War - not Germany or Japan or anybody - nothing to be proud of - but something to learn from - even though the world screwed up again after World War I by mistreating the conquered and in part lead to World War II.
The Confederate Flag should remain because the majority has voted that it should - not because of ignorant morons who know nothing about the truth. It should remain so we don't forget and repeat history and not learn from history. We live now in the time and land of the offended. Well guess what the majority are offended by the idea of removing the flag. There is not unity in removing the flag because a few are offended. There is not unity by removing the flag and offending the majority.
We honor honorable men and women who fought and died for the confederacy for the their rights just as we honor men and women who fought and died in the US's many wars for their rights. Were there bad people who fought for the Confederacy for bad reasons? Yes, but the same can be said for those who fought for the US flag. Who is calling for the US flag to be removed.
The people in SC are a good and fair and honorable people. South Carolina was the first state to erect a monument to Martin Luther King. Who is asking for that to come down and why should that be on the state capital grounds. Because we can and should. Unity is gained by meeting in a common ground of understanding and tolerance.
To quote another poster on this site... "Honestly, I find it disrespectful that the media is trying to use the horrible deaths of these innocent people to advance their political agenda . "
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All-In [26968]
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"The Confederate Flag should remain because the majority has
Jun 23, 2015, 8:21 AM
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voted that it should"
Will you change your mind when the State legislature votes overwhelmingly to take it down?
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Varsity [104]
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Speaking of ignorant...you should scroll up and
Jun 23, 2015, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. - to boggled ] |
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follow the link that prodigal posted. It might open your eyes a bit. Stop believing all the lies you have been taught. I was taught the same things but decided to do my own research and was shocked by the reality.
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Orange Elite [5125]
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Game Changer [2038]
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And another thing is this isnt even the confederate flag...
Jun 23, 2015, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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this was the battle flag....which makes sense that it flies next to a monument of the men that died under it...the C.S.A. flag was completely different...so if everyone is saying that they see racism in the flag that ignorant also because this flag was only flown during battle...they should hate the confederate flag...which I would be willing to bet wouldn't even know what it looked like LOL So to my point that this battle flag is very misinterpreted and unfortunately was done by a terrible group has given it a bad rep...unfortunate also that the people are not educated enough to realize this and how big of a piece of history especially in SC that this was.
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110%er [6938]
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Varsity [104]
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Re: There is no hope for you.***
Jun 27, 2015, 2:59 PM
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If the confederate flag staying up provides you with "hope" then I'd like not to be part of that anyway. Thanks though.
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Orange Blooded [3258]
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TAKE IT DOWN. THIS IS WORSE THAN JACK DEBATE!
Jun 23, 2015, 9:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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I am a proud son of the South. I love singing Dixie, etc., but let's move on to Clemson sports.
I am more concerned with Battle than the battle flag.
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Game Changer [1640]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 24, 2015, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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Remember it was put up in 1961 by then governor Fritz Hollongs -liberal democrat as a protest to federal intergration laws........
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Game Changer [2038]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 24, 2015, 1:44 PM
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it was put up for the 100 year anniversary of the war... and it was never decided or specified when it was to come down, so it stayed up. It was not put up to protest civil rights for godsakes like ppl belive...I could see where the timing could be that but it has actually flown in the House chambers since the late 30s.
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CU Guru [1996]
TigerPulse: 91%
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Just playing Devil's advocate
Jun 23, 2015, 7:36 AM
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You can ask that question about any monument and get the same answer. So I'm not sure I understand how relevant the question is.
The following are monuments outside of the South Carolina State House:
- George Washington
- Confederate Soldier
- North/South Streets
- Spanish American War
- African American Monument
- Richard Richardson Monument
- Ben Tillman Monument
- Gervais Street
None of those listed actively benefit the citizens of South Carolina. Should we clear the grounds of all monuments now? I don't think so but I'm curious as to your take.
Monuments are built to remember a certain figure, location, event. They provide historical context to something local or important to the community. Agree or disagree with the Confederate flag, the monument, or the perception of it in general but you cannot ignore that it's a large part of South Carolina's history, for better or worse. Just as the African American Monument is. Just as the Ben Tillman Monument is. Or any other monument on the state house grounds.
After yesterday, the flag won't stay up, so there's no use in arguing over it or trying to convince either side they're right or wrong. But your question won't provide you the answer you're looking for.
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Ultimate Tiger [33593]
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In addition. . There is benefit in not caving to
Jun 23, 2015, 7:40 AM
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Every special interests group with a senseless agenda.
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National Champion [8040]
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The boycott has been going on for 15 years. If the flag
Jun 23, 2015, 8:02 AM
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comes down now I think it's safe to say it was done because reasonable people want to do what's right for our state and not because anyone caved to anybody.
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Legend [6953]
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Game Changer [1690]
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Re: Just playing Devil's advocate
Jun 23, 2015, 7:55 AM
[ in reply to Just playing Devil's advocate ] |
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To play Devils Devils advocate: I have never witnessed a Ku Klux Klan member or a member of the American Nazi Party waving around a picture of Gervais Street. Maybe I missed it. But, there is a HUGE difference.
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CU Guru [1996]
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Those groups aren't historically relevant to SC
Jun 23, 2015, 8:00 AM
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Neither group has had a profound impact on the course of action the state has taken. The Civil War started on our soil. Thousands of citizens fought and died in the war. I'm not using this to justify the state's reasoning for opposing the country but if you think the KKK or American Nazi Party has had the same historical impact on this state that any of the other monuments had, you're kidding no one but yourself.
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Valley Legend [12586]
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I think it is time that there flag comes down, but.....
Jun 23, 2015, 8:21 AM
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it is also time that some of you brush up on history. First, slavery was indeed one of if not the prime factor in the Civil War. Disagreements about slavery between the northern and southern states went all the back to the time of our country's founding. I think it is also for to say that many northern citizens and even politicians against slavery were not convinced that the blacks were equal in any way to whites, although they may have acknowledged that slavery, as an institution, was morally wrong. Even Lincoln thought that.
As for southerners being traitors - that is just not true. You have to put what the southern states did in context of where we were in our country's young history. At the time, loyalty was much more towards states than it was to the federal government. At the outbreak of the war Robert E. Lee was an officer in the Union army, but ultimately could not fight for the Union because he "could not fight against his own people" - fellow Virginians. His loyalty was with his state, not the Union. He would haver been a traitor to his people/state. I suggest reading Clouds of Glory, The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee, by Michael Korda for a source of much information.
Incidentally, as some have said, the vast majority of the young men that fought for the south, including my great grandfather, never owned slaves and likely never would and certainly they were not fighting (consciously anyway) to preserve that institution. If you don't think loyalty to your state did not supersede loyalty to the Union, look up how many citizens of South Carolina and Virginia joined the Union army. I'll save you the trouble - NONE!
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Letterman [281]
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Re: I think it is time that there flag comes down, but.....
Jun 23, 2015, 8:57 AM
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These are the words of Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States, referring to the confederate constitution. I don't see how ANYONE, especially the confederate "history" buffs, can logically argue that the Civil War was NOT about slavery after reading this.
"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. THIS WAS THE IMMEDIATE CAUSE OF THE LATE RUPTURE AND PRESENT REVOLUTION. (Emphasis added). Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I think it is time that there flag comes down, but.....
Jun 23, 2015, 9:01 AM
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How dare you cloud the issue with facts.
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Ultimate Tiger [33593]
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So you are saying we should make decisions based off a group of idiots?
Jun 23, 2015, 8:09 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just playing Devil's advocate ] |
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Those people also fly the US flag and crosses.
They will also not stop if this flag is up our down.
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Heisman Winner [85677]
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Re: Just playing Devil's advocate
Jun 23, 2015, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to Just playing Devil's advocate ] |
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I think my answer would be that none of the monuments you mentioned show up prominently in any picture taken of the State Capitol, and, they don't have a negative economic impact on the state, which this one certainly has had.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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LOL, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
Jun 23, 2015, 8:52 AM
[ in reply to Just playing Devil's advocate ] |
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That's like a German defending the swastika being flown today because it "represents a part of history"
The monuments and statues you mentioned may not "directly benefit SC," but at the same time, they aren't active symbols of division and racism.
Wake up!!
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Solid Orange [1391]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 23, 2015, 7:48 AM
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Maybe the greatest benefit is to remind us of a past that we do not want to repeat. Take down the flag and we stop thinking about a time that we should question in our minds over and over as generations come and go.
Maybe the question should be why does one flag on one pole in one place bother you so much.
If this conversation is about people not being offended, maybe we should enforce a law against loud a$$ music with obscene lyrics that I have to listen to as a travel across town. Maybe we should outlaw kids with pants down around their knees. Just a few of the things that offend me about society. But then I understand that living in a democracy is not about me, but about all of us.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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98+% of American don't know what happened.
Jun 23, 2015, 8:05 AM
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I grew up being taught, by teachers I trusted, to believe northerners fought to free slaves. After my first trip through that part of the country I wondered how that could have been. After my first History Class at Clemson and thanks to being assigned to research the cause of the war my understanding changed.
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Athletic Dir [1185]
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Flags are symbols. Perhaps meaning different things to
Jun 23, 2015, 11:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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different people. Overtime, this symbol now has more negative connotations than positive. Time to take it down for the greater good.
As to the 2nd question, Would a swastika flying over the capital bother you?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102348]
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Re: Flags are symbols. Perhaps meaning different things to
Jun 24, 2015, 2:47 PM
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Would you apply that logic to the marriage issue?
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question.
Jun 25, 2015, 9:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Answer me one Confederate Flag Question. ] |
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The flag is to honor the Confederate soldiers who bravely fought to defend their States from Northern aggression. Slavery was a political force that drove the war, but it was not the reason most of the Soldiers fought. They fought to defend their homes. Very few Confederate soldiers owned slaves. "Rich mans battle and a poor man's fight."
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Solid Orange [1394]
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It's good for the SC economy (t-shirts, license plates,
Jun 23, 2015, 8:40 AM
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bikinis.
However, I agree with your post.
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Hall of Famer [9000]
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Game Changer [2037]
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Does Walmart really sell alot of battle flag items?
Jun 23, 2015, 9:41 AM
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I cant ever recall seeing any confederate flag items on the shelves at walmart....but then again I dont walk through the clothes section very much.
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Tiger Titan [48287]
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Does the SC economy benefit from sales of that stuff?
Jun 23, 2015, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to It's good for the SC economy (t-shirts, license plates, ] |
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Maybe, maybe not.
In either case, the SC economy has lost MUCH more in tourism, companies not doing business here, convention boycotts, sports even boycotts, etc than will EVER be made up by selling clothes with that nonsense on them.
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CU Medallion [18156]
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What companies have refused to do business with us based on
Jun 23, 2015, 12:07 PM
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the flag? Links please
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Heisman Winner [85677]
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Re: What companies have refused to do business with us based on
Jun 24, 2015, 12:50 PM
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Not up on how to link, but a 5 second search got me the Harlem Globetrotters as having boycotted South Carolina for the last 14 years over this issue, finally coming back this year. I am sure I could find lots of others if I took the time to search.
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CU Medallion [18156]
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the Globetrotters? Sorry, try again***
Jun 25, 2015, 5:45 PM
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Heisman Winner [85677]
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OK, here you go. And if you don't consider
Jun 27, 2015, 9:00 AM
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the NCAA, SEC, and ACC Big Time businesses, then I have no further need to try and explain anything to you. This is an excerpt of an article from 2009, still in effect today.
The Atlantic Coast Conference has had enough of that flag: Earlier this week it pulled the 2011, 2012 and 2013 ACC baseball tournaments out of Spurrier's state and relocated them to neighboring North Carolina. Myrtle Beach's loss becomes Durham's and Greensboro's economic and tourism gain.
Meanwhile, the NCAA won't touch the state of South Carolina with a vaulter's pole. Same goes for Spurrier's home conference, the SEC. And all because of a Confederate battle flag that first flew atop the state Capitol dome in 1962 and still flies prominently, defiantly and wrongly at a Confederate soldier's monument on the Capitol grounds in Columbia.
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Orange Blooded [3821]
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Its the Economy, Stupid
Jun 23, 2015, 10:42 AM
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Why was slavery such an issue? Was it because those in the South had some perverse desire to own other human beings? No it was all about economics. Those in power in the South owned all the slaves. The South was an agrarian based economy. They were terrified that without slaves the South's economy (i.e. their own personal wealth) would collapse.
This is obviously over simplistic but it strikes at the root of the problem.
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Orange Immortal [62708]
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Re: Its the Economy, Stupid
Jun 24, 2015, 9:12 PM
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No human being regardless of their color should have to live their lives owned by other humans. It's wrong just to own another, but it's a billion times wrong to be treated less than the owners animals. To chain a man, woman, or young adult to a tree or post, strip them naked and horse whipped them to death or near death. The person that orders this type of treatment to another, I believe should be thrown in a pit of hungry crocs and just walk away. My entier 62 years of life has and will always believe that it's the wrongest thing man kind has ever done to another. I will take my beliefs to the grave, there is no way humanly possible to right the wrongs that was done to the African slaves in this country!!! I wasn't even close to being born then, neither were my parents, but it still embarrasses me for what our fore fathers has done for money. I know that the old timers in this country were hard core, but they were crueler than I cam begin to imagine. And none of their cruelty was done over or because of a flag!!!
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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World War 2 monument costs taxpayers money.
Jun 23, 2015, 10:57 AM
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Should we remove all monuments if they don't have an economic benefit? I think you might be missing the point of monuments.
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Heisman Winner [85677]
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Not missing the point of monuments at all.
Jun 23, 2015, 3:45 PM
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But, you picked a very poor analogy. World War II was fought to keep most of the free world from being enslaved under some very evil empires. The Civil War was fought for the exact opposite, to keep a segment of mankind enslaved.
Now, a lot of good sons of South Carolina and many other states died in that war, and I have no problem whatsoever remembering their loss. But, it does not need to be done with the Confederate Battle flag of that war prominently displayed at the State Capitol as a constant reminder to a large segment of the population of what would have happened if the South had had its way back then.
The ACC baseball tournament did not get moved out of the state because of any other issue. Lots of business convention business has been lost to the state over the years as well since this first became an issue. But, this is just a secondary issue to the main one.
So, from a humanitarian standpoint, and a business standpoint, the flag should be retired. And, as a GOP spokesperson said on TV today, this act alone won't heal racism in this state, or this country, but it can at least be a starting point. You have to start somewhere.
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Game Day Hero [4309]
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Wrong.
Jun 28, 2015, 9:23 AM
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The South did not start the war. The South seceded peacefully. The North attacked them to bring them back into the Union. It doesn't matter what the grievances were. Sure slavery was a huge issue at the time, but the southern states felt that their compact had been broken by overreaching federal decree without going through the proper process, the amendment process. The 13th amendment was not proposed for ratification under after the war (1865).
After the revolutionary war, we agreed to form a union, rather than remain independent states, but only under a specific set of conditions. Read the Federalist Papers and Anti-Federal list papers. Stupid people think the constitution is for the "people". It's not. It is a contract between the States, the therein created Federal government, and the Indian tribes. The South felt the government had broken that agreement and left.
The North went to war not to free slaves, but to conquer and re-annex the South to restore the Union. That's no different that the USSR invading one of its rouge members. Union forces would not leave Fort Sumter, so we kicked them out.
I don't think anyone in America today thinks that slavery was/is a good thing, save a few crazies. But t despite the fact that slavery was a horrible practice, the South was well within their RIGHTS to secede. The winner of the war doesn't determine who was right or wrong, but only who was the better warrior. The South had a right to secede, though motivated by an immoral cause, but justified by a legal one.
To most southerners, including many blacks, the flag is more a representation of pride (yeah, the bully kicked our ### on the playground, but at least we fought back) than it is about slavery. In fact, it is almost NEVER about slavery.
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Associate AD [819]
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When you find those "many blacks" that
Jun 28, 2015, 9:59 AM
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take great pride in that rag, please post a group pic for all of us to see. If you mean the numbers of black folk that don't give a crap one way or the other than maybe, just maybe you are onto something, but take pride in it? Please.
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Game Day Hero [4309]
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You think Southern Pride is myth?***
Jun 28, 2015, 10:27 AM
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Associate AD [819]
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Do you think Southern Pride and waving
Jun 28, 2015, 10:34 AM
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that flag go hand in hand? I don't nor do many others. I can embrace aspects of where I was born, raised, and continue to live and at the same time have nothing to do with other parts. That flag would be one of those parts.
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Commissioner [980]
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You are right on. Good for you
Jun 23, 2015, 10:36 PM
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nm
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Rival Killer [2608]
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welp..
Jun 27, 2015, 11:38 PM
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same benefit as any other flag that flies.
I mean, why do people wear rings?
we're not talking about practical value, like a hammer. We're talking about our need for or "obsession" with memorial things.
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