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Replies: 72
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:26 PM
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There are three active coaches that have won national championships in football. Please reread that previous sentence. Now, reread it one more time. As such Dabo, is in very select company. That provides him with a lot of capital to do things his way. Is he above reproach or critique? No. Does it mean your comparison of Dabo to BB is ludicrous? Yes.
Dabo: Conference championships: 8 Playoff appearances: 6 National titles: 2
BB: Conference championships: 0 Final four appearances: 0 National titles: 0
The only mention of these two in the same sentence is that they are both Clemson coaches. Anything beyond that demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the value Dabo has added to this program and this university.
Message was edited by: revmarkg®
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Oculus Spirit [44753]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:42 PM
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Yep besides both wearing the Paw and getting their checks from Clemson University that’s about all those 2 have in common.
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Ring of Honor [22289]
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They live in the same neighborhood***
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:44 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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I guess they could carpool to save money on gas.***
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:53 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [33255]
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BrownL would have to Uber home - he puts in a quarter of the time as Dabo.***
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:25 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Tiger Spirit [9169]
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Re: They live in the same neighborhood***
Feb 1, 2024, 6:38 PM
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L-I-V-I-N
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CU Medallion [18465]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:52 PM
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can you tell me how many active coaches have made a Sweet 16?
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I found this
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Jan 31, 2024, 1:57 PM
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most sweet sixteen since 95-96, which would get most active coaches:
Duke 18
Kansas 16
Kentucky 15
Michigan State 15
UNC 14
UCLA 14
UGA 13
Arizona 13
Syracuse 12
Wisconsin 10
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:02 PM
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How much do those schools spend on basketball?
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National Champion [7271]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:04 PM
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Dimocrats think the answer is always to spend more money on something that is failing.
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Ultimate Tiger [34312]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:45 PM
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I once heard that Republicans don't want to spend money on anything, and Democrats think everything should be free. The older I get, the more that it makes sense to me.
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Rival Killer [2772]
TigerPulse: 75%
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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LOL You are so right!!!! His answer is always dollars. I guess that means if we spend more money on basketball we could hire a better coach?
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Standout [200]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:27 PM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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What amount needs to be spent to ensure we win a conference championship? Make an Elite 8? Final 4? National Championship?
Are we getting a maximum return on investment today?
If money guarantees success, please elaborate on what amount would get us any of the above.
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CU Medallion [19677]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:45 AM
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It’s a very simple formula. Big dollars attract the best coach available. The best facilities ($) attract players along with the coach ($). It ALWAYS boils down to dollars. Remember Dabo saying to be competitive we have to spend money? He spent it, it came. That’s how it works. If you spend it right, success comes.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
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You are spot on, but unfortunately people won't like your post.
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:51 PM
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To them, Dabo bootstrapped our football program with almost no help. Their narrative states that Dabo took "little 'ol Clemson" from a nothing program to the mountaintop of college football, and it was purely due to his own determination, enthusiasm, and expert coaching, and had nothing to do with significant and unwavering increases in support from the administration and incredible support from fans.
They also apply this faulty logic to basketball, and believe that basketball already has more than enough support to be a consistent winner, compete for ACC championships, and make deep runs in the NCAA Tournament. All we need is a coach to do it.
I don't think there is much help for these people.
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National Champion [7271]
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Re: You are spot on, but unfortunately people won't like your post.
Feb 1, 2024, 1:27 PM
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Judge Brownell you are just jealous of the football program, where a person who had never been a head coach came in with a vision and became successful. You aren’t a Clemson fan you are just a Brownell fan.
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Orange Immortal [62845]
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Re: You are spot on, but unfortunately people won't like your post.
Feb 1, 2024, 3:59 PM
[ in reply to You are spot on, but unfortunately people won't like your post. ] |
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If we're going to be totally honest, Dabo actually took over a team that had some pretty decent seasons right before Bowden's last season, and what hurt Dabo in his first few years was that stellar recruiting class that went north when it was announced that Tommy Bowden had resigned. 2007=9-4, 2006=8-5, 2005=8-4. 2008 was Dabo's interim HC year, so that actually makes that Tommy's record. So Dabo took over a team that had a decent foundation under it, but he did lose about 12 pretty solid recruits that I believe was mostly responsible for his worst year in 2010=6-7, 2011=10-4, 2012-11-2, 2013-11-2, 2014=10-3, 2015=14-1, 2016=14-1, 2017=12-2, 2018=15-0 undefeated, 2019=14-1, covid year 2020=10-2, 2021=10-3, 2022=11-3, then there was last season 2023=9-4 Dabo's worst season with his recruiting classes was 2023 with a 9-4 finish, and that was mainly bc of new OC hire and still with a couple of inexperienced coaching that he made another correction the end of last season, and IMO there needs to be a couple more new hires with experience. But it's not the time yet to talk down about Dabo and the FB program. 99.9% of the fan bases across the country probably pray for a 10 year run like Dabo has had at Clemson, Go Tigers, Go Dabo!!!
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CU Guru [1574]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:31 PM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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Without verifying this other poster's list, football schools are:
Michigan St
Georgia
Arizona
Syracuse
Wisconsin
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Tiger Titan [50789]
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Incorrect.
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:10 PM
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Michigan State, Arizona, and Syracuse are basketball schools first.
Wisconsin is arguably a football school, but way more supportive of basketball than we are.
Georgia doesn’t belong on this list because they don’t have any Sweet 16 appearances since 1996.
I don’t know how this list was generated, but the schools with the most basketball success over the last 25 years are basketball first schools.
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All-Pro [714]
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Re: Incorrect.
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:15 PM
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So what? Clearly Brownell can't get us there, so it's time to bring in someone else to at least take us to the next level. The rest of your excuses are nothing but noise.
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Valley Legend [12909]
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Re: Incorrect.
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Jan 31, 2024, 9:24 PM
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No one has ever gotten us there without probation or immediately bolting. Perhaps the HC is not the issue?
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Tiger Titan [50789]
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Great, so Wake Forest and Boston College should expect
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:48 AM
[ in reply to Re: Incorrect. ] |
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to be upper echelon ACC teams every year in football, right? I mean, their football support doesn’t matter and they should expect the right coach to have them on par with Florida State and Clemson, correct?
Otherwise, they are just making excuses. Is that what you’re saying?
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CU Medallion [18465]
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Re: Incorrect.
Jan 31, 2024, 10:28 PM
[ in reply to Incorrect. ] |
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Florida says hello.
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110%er [3824]
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Re: Incorrect.
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Feb 1, 2024, 6:23 AM
[ in reply to Incorrect. ] |
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Sorry about the TU, I meant to click Reply.
After Clemson beat them in football at Chapel Hill on 1979, a UNC fan turned around and said to us, "That's OK. We're a basketball school any way." My friend told him, "That's because Clemson made you that way!"
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CU Guru [1574]
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Re: Incorrect.
Feb 1, 2024, 8:23 PM
[ in reply to Incorrect. ] |
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No, I'm correct. Syracuse has been a football school since the 40s, Michigan St. almost as long.
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Game Changer [1980]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
Jan 31, 2024, 6:48 PM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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Football provides more than enough money to basketball especially with the way they perform! We ALL know who makes the money right …jk???
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CU Medallion [18465]
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CU Guru [1296]
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: How about NIT
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Feb 1, 2024, 9:20 AM
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OOOOhhhhhhh that's cold. But true!
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All-Conference [436]
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Varsity [104]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Jan 31, 2024, 9:13 PM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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Michigan state spends within 2 million of us on football… and they most certainly are not a basketball school first if you’ve been there. Maybe close to equal, but 90 percent would rather have a football natty. Bad example
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Tiger Titan [50789]
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Its not a bad example at all. Michigan State is a basketball school
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:52 AM
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more than they are a football school.
When you look at championships won, both conference and national championships, their basketball program has been more successful.
Of course they care about football, but basketball is their most important and well known sport.
If you asked most people to name the most talented and successful sports figures at Michigan State, they will name Magic Johnson, Draymond Green, Jud Heathcote, etc. Sure, there have been some good football players from there, but they are a basketball school first and foremost.
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Ultimate Tiger [34341]
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Re: Its not a bad example at all. Michigan State is a basketball school
Feb 1, 2024, 2:30 PM
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Does Michigan State spend more on basketball than football or is this just your perception, which we know is rarely based on reality? Please show your work.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Spending more on football than basketball does not define
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Feb 1, 2024, 4:11 PM
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a football school.
Plenty of basketball schools spend more on football, because football requires a lot more resources. Plus, depending on conference affiliation, football might bring in more revenue as well. At the high major level, it likely does.
For example, Duke spends more on football than it does on men’s basketball. Are you suggesting that Duke is a football school?
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Game Changer [1618]
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 9:26 AM
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TigerAlum'01 Please post this to every JK/CBB discussion until we give Basketball $100M or get a new coach. This whole saga on TNet is way worse then the actual results of the basketball program!
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Hall of Famer [8226]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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Lol, the “spend” crutch. Dabo started out as one of the lowest paid coached in power 5. The difference is, he knows what he’s doing and Brownell does not.
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CU Medallion [19677]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:52 AM
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To make us successful, what did Dabo do? Spend. Spend. Spend. See stadium upgrades. See football complex (Dabo land), see Tiger walk which tore up my parking lot. I could go on and on. BV. G Riley. Chad. He spent more on assistant coaches than most in that span. Dollars brings recruits and a chance at success. Gonzaga spends the least with the most success. They are just outside of top 25 in spending.
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Hall of Famer [8226]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
Feb 1, 2024, 9:46 PM
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So I guess you’re saying Dabo gets no credit for winning two national championships?
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CU Medallion [19677]
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Re: How many of those are football schools like we are?
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to How many of those are football schools like we are? ] |
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Not as much as I originally thought. Clemson is 8th in revenue (ACC) yet 14th in spending. We have the money to spend $11-14 million a year on basketball. Gonzaga didn’t even crack the top 25 in spending. Imagine that.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
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Also, UGA doesnt have 13 Sweet 16 appearances in mens basketball
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:50 PM
[ in reply to I found this ] |
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since 95-96.
They only have two in their history, with their last one being in 1996.
Maybe you meant someone else?
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Game Day Hero [4499]
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Re: I found this
Jan 31, 2024, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to I found this ] |
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Ugay??? That's surprising
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Rival Killer [2781]
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Re: I found this
Feb 1, 2024, 6:32 AM
[ in reply to I found this ] |
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uga went to the sweet sixteen 13 times?!?!?!?! Ok. Now I'm pissed. Check that. More pissed....
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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That's obviously incorrect. They haven't been to the Sweet 16 since 1996.***
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:42 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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I did choose playoff appearances and final fours since until
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Jan 31, 2024, 2:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Judge K, please learn this. ] |
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now the playoffs have been four teams.
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Top TigerNet [30972]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 2:22 PM
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CU Medallion [20868]
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Trolls like her really aren't interested in this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:17 PM
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She has no problem showing off her ignorance - as long as it serves its purpose to put down Clemson and its fans in some fashion.
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TigerNet Icon [153231]
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I see you conveniently left off Elite 8 finishes
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:25 PM
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from your list.
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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I chose final four and playoffs because until next year both were
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:31 PM
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the last four teams standing.
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Campus Hero [13635]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:27 PM
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Heh, heh, heh………what do I get for pretending that coots can learn?
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:53 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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Third grade level response. Interesting.***
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Feb 1, 2024, 7:39 AM
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All-TigerNet [5691]
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The fact he constantly criticizes Dabo and personally attacks everyone
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:18 PM
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who criticizes Brownell is insane. He'll call posters who defend Dabo cultists, while acting like Brownell is the second coming of Christ. his Dabo/Brownell double standard is just plain sad.
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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That is the only problem that I have with him/her.
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Feb 1, 2024, 7:37 AM
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If you want to defend BB and bring statistics and insight (some of which are good and correct) then go for it. Why the need to take shots at likely the greatest coach in Clemson history to boost his/her argument is beyond me.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Disagreeing with Dabo and/or criticizing decisions he has made
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:46 PM
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is not "taking shots" at Dabo.
People tee off on Brad and criticize him for all sorts of stuff, including personal stuff, and that is justified by people "having high expectations for the program." Defending him means having low expectations for the program or being a relative of his.
On the other hand, disagree with Dabo? You're "bashing" him. Criticize Dabo? You're a coot or a troll.
The hypocrisy here knows no bounds.
Carry on.
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Game Changer [1618]
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Re: Disagreeing with Dabo and/or criticizing decisions he has made
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:55 PM
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All-TigerNet [5691]
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Irony?
Feb 1, 2024, 11:00 PM
[ in reply to Disagreeing with Dabo and/or criticizing decisions he has made ] |
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"People tee off on Brad and criticize him for all sorts of stuff, including personal stuff, and that is justified by people "having high expectations for the program." Replace Brad with Dabo and you just summed up your hatred for him in a sentence.
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Ultimate Tiger [33255]
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But but but - MONEY & SUPPORT is the ONLY thing keeping Brownlee
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:23 PM
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from becoming the next Roy Williams or Rat Face . . . if basketball only had the money of football.
But even then, we would probably only win another game or 2 a year - (paraphrased very tightly from one of the 6 cult member's response to an anti-Brownlee post)
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All-TigerNet [5691]
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I still think it's hilarious how Hubert Davis is getting paid less than Brad***
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:51 PM
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110%er [3824]
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Re: I still think it's hilarious how Hubert Davis is getting paid less than Brad***
Feb 1, 2024, 6:27 AM
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He makes up the difference renting out his basement to players and conducting virtual classes!
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Varsity [105]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
Feb 1, 2024, 7:04 AM
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Well said!!!
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National Champion [7198]
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It's simple really, Judge K is not
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Feb 1, 2024, 8:50 AM
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a Clemson guy. I figured this out long ago.
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Game Changer [1728]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
Feb 1, 2024, 10:30 AM
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What is the realistic expectation of clemson basketball? We’re a football school first, baseball second, arguably soccer is above basketball and we have more team golf championships than we do final 4 appearances. So if we fire BB, one, who do we get? And two what’s their measure of success? I don’t think a national championship, or even elite 8, or bust mentality is realistic
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CU Guru [1555]
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Re: Judge K, please learn this.
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:49 AM
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The goal should always be to make the tournament. Every 3-4 years have a deep run to the sweet 16/elite 8. Anything less is unacceptable. No 1st round nit home losses.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
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I agree.
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:47 PM
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Clemson has to commit to supporting the basketball program consistently in order for that to happen. We might need a new coach too, but we definitely need to support the program better. That goes for the administration and the fans.
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
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So is it if you build it they will come or if they come you will build it?***
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Feb 1, 2024, 12:52 PM
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 37057
Joined: 2003
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Ideally, that support comes first.
1
Feb 1, 2024, 1:39 PM
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As I've said many times, providing Brownell at least somewhat of a more level playing field (and some actual advantages would be amazing too!) would let us see what he is truly capable of. It would also put us in much better position to hire a great new coach when the time comes.
I don't understand the mentality that Brownell should be expected to work miracles every year by elevating a program that is arguably the worst in the history of the ACC, that isn't surrounded by a talent-rich pool of players, that ranks near the bottom of the conference in basketball expenditures, and that ranks near the bottom of the conference in attendance, to the point that we are supposed to be advancing in the NCAA Tournament every year and among the best teams in the conference every year.
Our history shows that good coaches can deliver the occasional great season (upper third of the ACC, Sweet 16, etc.) but those seasons are rare. As you know, Clemson basketball has never been what many of you want it to be, despite numerous coaches trying their hand.
We pride ourselves on being a football school. That's great for football, but it hurts us in basketball - both from a funding/support perspective as well as from the perspective of those on the outside (recruits, high school coaches, analysts, etc.) who equate that to not caring enough about basketball.
A new coach could certainly inject some new excitement into the program, which I acknowledge could be helpful. But if the foundational issues don't change, we will be right back where we've always been, unable to build and sustain a high level program. I'm encouraged by Neff's increased support for basketball, but we have a long way to go.
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Game Changer [1618]
TigerPulse: 100%
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If it's so bad at Clemson
Feb 1, 2024, 1:50 PM
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Why doesn't CBB just go find another job where he has the full support of the fans, the AD, and all of the financial resources needed to field a competitive program? I mean, he is the winningest basketball coach in the history of Clemson University. Certainly, there's somewhere that needs his coaching talents, right? Why continue to flounder in this supposed "no win situation"?
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Clemson Conqueror [11207]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Clemson has some inherent disadvantages that may be insurmountable.
Feb 1, 2024, 2:51 PM
[ in reply to Ideally, that support comes first. ] |
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Let's say funding was not an issue and Clemson spent in the range of the top ten programs. That does nothing to alleviate the fact that Clemson for a 9 PM game midweek is a tough sell. I can plan my weekends in the fall around being in Clemson even for the dreaded noon kick-offs. I cannot attend, even if I was so inclined, a 9PM mid week game, over at 11:30ish then drive home to Lancaster and be at work the next day. Maybe when I was 31 but at 61 it ain't gonna happen. That is true of many Clemson fans the distance is prohibitive. So fan support measured in terms of consistent full seats or nearly full will never happen.
That being said funding will likely never be what you would like to see. I believe if you asked most fans, even those who say they love basketball but want BB out, if they would trade having a team that does consistently challenge for the ACC tite, or make runs to the sweet sixteen or the elite eight in exchange for seeing football drop to a consistent top 15-20 program, 95% would say no. I know I would. I want winning football, playoff contending football, winning NC periodically football. If the price I pay is mediocrity in basketball, I'm willing to pay it. But that's just me. There will be those that argue that is not a choice we have to make, but money is not in infinite supply.
What needs to happen is a coach that actively and openly recruits student support. Be visible on campus and ask students to come. Have a pizza party for students at a game. Go after their support. Then even without old guys like me Littlejohn could still rock for those mid week games. We have not because we ask not.
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Game Changer [2048]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Show consistent quality and the fans will come
Feb 1, 2024, 3:10 PM
[ in reply to I agree. ] |
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… when the interest it’s sustained, the dollars will follow.
You’ve got it backwards … Throwing money at programs does not guarantee success. Show consistent success and the money will follow.
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Tiger Titan [50789]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 37057
Joined: 2003
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Consistent success wont come without better support.
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Feb 1, 2024, 4:22 PM
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Evidence from over 100 years of Clemson basketball is proof of that.
Clemson, at least historically, has no interest in being serious about high level basketball success. Sure, we like to be competitive and win, and we enjoy the occasional season when we are among the best ACC teams and win a game or two in the NCAA Tournament, but the moment things might start to infringe on football, Clemson decides it might not be worth it after all.
Money is a finite resource. How are we going to spend it? We chose to spend it on football before Dabo proved himself, so why is Brad supposed to have multiple seasons in a row of NCAA Tournaments before some of you want it supported? That’s backwards.
If we are serious about being a great basketball program, we would willingly support it better - not wait on some arbitrary level of performance before getting behind it.
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Commissioner [1277]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Consistent success wont come without better support.
Feb 1, 2024, 7:01 PM
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I’m not trying to flame or be argumentative. You have some valid points on support. But my question is exactly where would the additional money be spent? assistant coaches? NIL? New arena? More tutors? When we had a supposed great coach we couldn’t keep him. How do you create tradition? Bit by bit and step by step and year by year. I think most fans just don’t think it’s going to happen with BB even if there were more $ and more “support.”
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