|
Replies: 68
| visibility 3157
|
Tiger Titan [50655]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 36966
Joined: 2003
|
Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 4:31 PM
|
|
as well as it could:
https://theclemsoninsider.com/2021/04/22/clemson-officially-hires-new-coach-extends-contract-for-other-assistants/
Despite significant raises for our basketball assistant coaches, we are still below average. From the article linked above:
"Athletic Director Dan Radakovich pointed out to the Compensation Committee that basketball’s total assistant coaches’ salaries are just below the medium of the national figures for assistant coaches. They are just below the 50-percent level on the national level."
|
|
|
|
 |
TigerNet Icon [152542]
TigerPulse: 100%
68
Posts: 35622
Joined: 2010
|
How much more money per year should Clemson divert...
Apr 22, 2021, 4:34 PM
|
|
to basketball and from where should it come?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26673]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 15388
Joined: 2000
|
It should come from D's
Apr 22, 2021, 4:39 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Time Great [94421]
TigerPulse: 100%
63
Posts: 14335
Joined: 2018
|
The current raises probably came from . . .
Apr 22, 2021, 4:41 PM
[ in reply to How much more money per year should Clemson divert... ] |
|
re-diverted Track and Field $$$ . . . What can we cut next???
Now I see we are keeping it!!! Sa-weet!!!!!!!
Message was edited by: Skeeta56®
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Champion [120921]
TigerPulse: 100%
65
Posts: 77545
Joined: 2003
|
Men's basketball.
Apr 24, 2021, 11:20 AM
|
|
Just pretend you are an investor, and you have been dumping money into something for 40 years, and it has produced nothing. You would have pulled out a long time ago. Clemson Athletics needs to be run more like a business, we need a businessman AD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [24719]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 33012
Joined: 1998
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32158]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
|
A lot of times when money is not available you can offer
Apr 22, 2021, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to How much more money per year should Clemson divert... ] |
|
perks, like free parking in front of Littlejohn, complementary tickets to rally cat practices, or even being Grand Marshal in the First Friday parade, or "Dinner with Dabo" every month on a rotating basis at his house. People are motivated by lots of things besides money. I once took a job because besides the experience washing other peoples cars gave me, my boss let me wash my car for free.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [79958]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 29561
Joined: 2018
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
11
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 4:53 PM
|
|
This raises other questions:
3 assistant coaches, 2 have been here a while:
* #### Bender goes from $235k to $250k - an increase of $15k or 6.4%
* Reynolds Dean goes from $257k to $325k - an increase of $68k or 26.5%
and the new coach
* Kareem Richardson comes in at $275k
So:
* The new guy comes in at a higher salary than Bender who has been here longer.
* And Bender's pay rate and raise amount is far less than Dean's.
With all the talk recently about equity, does this make sense? Are we to believe that a message is being sent to Bender to go look for another job?
Aside from the question of why any of them are paid that much, this appears to have the makings of something to stir discontent within the coaching staff - which won't be helpful to team improvement if it does happen.
I'm probably missing a lot of the reasons why this seeming disparity exists, so if anyone knows, feel free to post the reasons..... difference in duties?.... difference in qualifications?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1700]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
are you serious?
Apr 22, 2021, 11:38 PM
|
|
This raises other questions:
3 assistant coaches, 2 have been here a while:
* #### Bender goes from $235k to $250k - an increase of $15k or 6.4%
* Reynolds Dean goes from $257k to $325k - an increase of $68k or 26.5%
and the new coach
* Kareem Richardson comes in at $275k
So:
* The new guy comes in at a higher salary than Bender who has been here longer.
* And Bender's pay rate and raise amount is far less than Dean's.
With all the talk recently about equity, does this make sense? Are we to believe that a message is being sent to Bender to go look for another job?
Aside from the question of why any of them are paid that much, this appears to have the makings of something to stir discontent within the coaching staff - which won't be helpful to team improvement if it does happen.
I'm probably missing a lot of the reasons why this seeming disparity exists, so if anyone knows, feel free to post the reasons..... difference in duties?.... difference in qualifications?
Dude... why would BB STIR UP discontentment with Bender? As well, he had to offer a salary to hire the new guy that the new guy would accept. He had to offer Reynolds-Dean a raise to keep him on staff, Bender obviously accepted his offer, otherwise, he would have said thanks but no thanks.
Is there a disparity? When have coaches ever had the exact same salary? Responsibilities? Roles outside of their coaching duties?
You may be imagining controversies that do not exist...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32695]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 15224
Joined: 2014
|
hold on! i’m calling coach howard right now
Apr 22, 2021, 4:57 PM
|
|
i’m also constructing a ladder to heaven for a sit down. i’ll let you know what he thinks
#bradball
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:21 PM
|
|
It’s a pity that we pay Brownell starvation wages so he couldn’t possibly be proactive in diverting funds into assistant salaries. It’s also a shame that there isn’t a coach already on campus who did exactly that while still being paid close to the bottom of ACC coaching pay as an investment in his own success. I’m sure it wouldn’t have worked out had someone gone that route.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:31 PM
|
|
Yes, indeed - only a fool would have done that or thought it might be the right thing to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3681]
TigerPulse: 85%
35
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball ] |
|
It’s a pity that we pay Brownell starvation wages so he couldn’t possibly be proactive in diverting funds into assistant salaries. It’s also a shame that there isn’t a coach already on campus who did exactly that while still being paid close to the bottom of ACC coaching pay as an investment in his own success. I’m sure it wouldn’t have worked out had someone gone that route.
Are you serious right now? You want a coach that is basically on the hot seat to give up his salary to pay assistant coaches more? Interesting. It’s always brownells fault, huh
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3687]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:33 PM
|
|
Yes it is. He’s the HEAD coach. Everything rises and falls with leadership. It’s falling with Brad‘s leadership.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:41 PM
|
|
What exactly is falling on Brad? Making the dance 2 of the last three years, sweet 16 appearance, high graduation rate, clean program or finishing in the top half of the ACC this year five places above preseason expectations? We are getting a great return on our investment
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3687]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 23, 2021, 7:37 AM
|
|
You talking about the year we finished ahead of UNC, Duke, Syracuse, and Louisville? The most down year in forever in the ACC? The year we went one and done in both tournaments?
That’s not progress. That’s mediocrity. 10+ years of mediocrity.
Brad is a nice guy who runs a clean program. I’ll give him that for sure. We also attributed that to Tommy Bowden.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [158]
TigerPulse: 75%
12
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball ] |
|
What exactly is falling on Brad? Making the dance 2 of the last three years, sweet 16 appearance, high graduation rate, clean program or finishing in the top half of the ACC this year five places above preseason expectations? We are getting a great return on our investment
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3681]
TigerPulse: 85%
35
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 23, 2021, 8:26 AM
[ in reply to Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball ] |
|
Yes it is. He’s the HEAD coach. Everything rises and falls with leadership. It’s falling with Brad‘s leadership.
You have some crazy high expectations for him. Especially considering you all don’t think he’s worth a crap.
You are really crap talking him because you think he should forego some of his salary to GT better assistant coaches on his team. Wow
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 6:22 PM
|
|
Also a shame he hasn’t been given 11 previous seasons to make that decision.
And a shame he had to spent the first six years raising money for a decent facility
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 6:50 PM
|
|
Do you actually believe that? The facility upgrade was a part of the package announced at TDP’s retirement presser in 2012. But go on I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 23, 2021, 7:23 AM
|
|
Do you actually believe that? The facility upgrade was a part of the package announced at TDP’s retirement presser in 2012. But go on I guess.
Replacing LJ was but not the facility for the players. Regardless he had to hid the locker room from recruits the first six years and had no facility the 7th year. Bad facility and no positive history made CU a tough sell but we have certainly seen improvement since the facility was completed
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 23, 2021, 2:47 PM
|
|
I know you’re fully in the tank but since the renovations he has one recruiting class significantly better than his average and the 2021 class is not looking good - so not a very strong trend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Icon [152542]
TigerPulse: 100%
68
Posts: 35622
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [11049]
TigerPulse: 73%
45
Posts: 10917
Joined: 2017
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3687]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:30 PM
|
|
So you want above average pay for below average play?
I’m guessing pay raises on Brads staff directly impacts you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [50655]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 36966
Joined: 2003
|
Please, tell us how Clemson basketball is below average.
Apr 23, 2021, 1:32 PM
|
|
I'll wait.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [978]
TigerPulse: 98%
24
|
Re: Please, tell us how Clemson basketball is below average.
Apr 23, 2021, 1:41 PM
|
|
I'll wait too. This will be fantastic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [981]
TigerPulse: 60%
24
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 5:49 PM
|
|
He’s not worth 500k fire his ####!
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [981]
TigerPulse: 60%
24
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 6:06 PM
|
|
I know what his contract is! I was saying he’s not even worth 500 k!
He’s been here 11 years and is an absolute joke!
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 6:10 PM
|
|
I know - I just wanted to illuminate how much more than $500k he's paid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32158]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
|
I'm not sure why we are bickering over asst coaches salaries
Apr 22, 2021, 6:01 PM
|
|
What these young men need is inspiration. Hoosiers is a good start, and Space Jam was pretty good too. Even the old Harlem Globetrotters cartoons from the 1970's featuring Meadowlark Lemon and Curley Neal (both from ACC territory I might add) taught good lessons in how to win when you are down. Coaching and talent can only take a team so far.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: I'm not sure why we are bickering over asst coaches salaries
Apr 22, 2021, 6:02 PM
|
|
Who would you suggest should inspire them if not the coaching staff?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32158]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
|
I'm just saying that even the best coaches
Apr 22, 2021, 6:09 PM
|
|
know that often the game is won through preparation, even before the players set foot on the court. And that includes an uplifting choice of pre-game movies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [6057]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: I'm just saying that even the best coaches
Apr 22, 2021, 6:12 PM
|
|
And the decision to show and the choice of those movies fall directly on the coaching staff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [32158]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
|
I mean take Thelma and Louise
Apr 22, 2021, 6:23 PM
|
|
A fine movie in its own right, with 2 veteran actresses and Brad Pitt in his first major role. Sure it has a message of fighting spirit and defiance, but is it right for pre-game basketball elan? I'm not so sure. A coach has to make hard calls like that, so I agree with you there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [11049]
TigerPulse: 73%
45
Posts: 10917
Joined: 2017
|
Legend has it...
1
Apr 23, 2021, 8:22 AM
[ in reply to I'm not sure why we are bickering over asst coaches salaries ] |
|
Brad brought the team to the Dean Dome the night before the game and measured from the floor to the rim...showing the guys that the visitors’ hoop is 11-feet high just like every other hoop.
The rest is history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10742]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
Posts: 14198
Joined: 2004
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 6:03 PM
|
|
Wish we could have added Steve Robinson to our staff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Campus Hero [14051]
TigerPulse: 100%
48
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 7:37 PM
|
|
I hope he didn't really point out that assistant coaches salaries are below the "medium" nationally. I expect our AD has a better understanding of statistics than the person who wrote that article.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [2038]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 22, 2021, 8:14 PM
|
|
Agree with a lot of what you say but can’t on this ... you don’t just keep paying assistants more when the product being put out doesn’t match that... I mean Dabo started making like 800k a year which was at that time the lowest salary in the ACC I’m pretty sure... he earned his way to being able to hire AND KEEP big time coordinators and raising his and their pay to what it is now which is tops in the country ... this basketball staff or program hasn’t done anything to warrant paying top level it’s just the way it is... in my honest opinion BB makes a lot more than he’s produced
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rival Killer [2721]
TigerPulse: 99%
33
|
What this highlighted
Apr 22, 2021, 10:29 PM
|
|
Is the fact we have 4 coaches and we still can't get in an offensive set. We could achieve that with 3 coaches and save money
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1526]
TigerPulse: 100%
30
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 23, 2021, 9:22 AM
|
|
Who's that big fella over on our bench? Is he still with us? Did he get a raise?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [50655]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 36966
Joined: 2003
|
That is Marty Simmons.
Apr 23, 2021, 2:13 PM
|
|
He took a head coaching position.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [11049]
TigerPulse: 73%
45
Posts: 10917
Joined: 2017
|
Right. So, we’ve had assistants who are good enough to be head coaches.
1
Apr 23, 2021, 2:31 PM
|
|
Doesn’t that kinda kill the argument that we don’t invest in good assistants?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [85994]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2017
|
Re: Right. So, we’ve had assistants who are good enough to be head coaches.
Apr 23, 2021, 5:22 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [11049]
TigerPulse: 73%
45
Posts: 10917
Joined: 2017
|
Where’s Exhibit B?***
1
Apr 23, 2021, 2:13 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6825]
TigerPulse: 100%
41
|
Re: Where’s Exhibit B?***
Apr 23, 2021, 2:51 PM
|
|
Press circa 1956
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [4090]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Dabo gave up part of his salary to hire great assistants but
Apr 23, 2021, 3:13 PM
|
|
I’ve yet to see Ole Brad offer any sacrifices in that regard
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Dabo gave up part of his salary to hire great assistants but
Apr 23, 2021, 5:40 PM
|
|
I’ve yet to see Ole Brad offer any sacrifices in that regard
Our football assistants are top 3 highest paid in the country. If hiring and retaining highly competitive assistants is not an advantage we should cut salaries thus saving a ton of money
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Dabo gave up part of his salary to hire great assistants but
Apr 23, 2021, 5:43 PM
|
|
That’s an insincere argument. The football budget has exploded in parallel with its success. The same opportunity exists for basketball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [22308]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
Posts: 18026
Joined: 2005
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12482]
TigerPulse: 98%
47
Posts: 12641
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Those assistants have won 2 National Championships
Apr 23, 2021, 10:14 PM
|
|
and played for 2 others in the last 6 years.
Moral of the story: Winning pays
They weren't making that in 2014
They were not making slightly less than median in 14 either
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [22308]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
Posts: 18026
Joined: 2005
|
No, but they had won 10 games 4 straight years
Apr 24, 2021, 11:01 AM
|
|
First ACC Championship in 20 years. What would the equivalent of that be for basketball?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18442]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11965
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Those assistants have won 2 National Championships
Apr 24, 2021, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Those assistants have won 2 National Championships ] |
|
At one point Dabo was the only BCS coach to make less than any two of his assistants combined. That wasn’t an accident. I don’t think the entire basketball staff makes half of what Brownell makes. Maybe it’s time to find a coach willing to build a program. Not just get rich.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [20831]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
|
Gave you a TD just so you know...
Apr 23, 2021, 10:24 PM
|
|
...but I mean your excuse-making skill is exceptional.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [50655]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 36966
Joined: 2003
|
Glad to know that you don't have a problem with our
Apr 26, 2021, 4:34 PM
|
|
assistant coaches being paid below the national average.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [20854]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 14648
Joined: 2009
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Icon [152542]
TigerPulse: 100%
68
Posts: 35622
Joined: 2010
|
Re: Exhibit B
Apr 25, 2021, 4:06 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [20854]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 14648
Joined: 2009
|
Brad Brownell made the same amount as Dabo in each's
Apr 24, 2021, 10:05 AM
|
|
first year as head coach here. One parlayed that into millions more and championships. The other is still coasting on participation trophies and wait til next years. One has pushed the admin to spend millions to expand capacity in their venue to meet demand. The other loses so much attendance every year that the admin had to spend millions to reduce capacity to make the venue seem more full.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [158]
TigerPulse: 75%
12
|
Re: Brad Brownell made the same amount as Dabo in each's
Apr 24, 2021, 11:35 AM
|
|
Duke does ok with smaller capacity. As does Gonzaga, etc. NC State left Reynolds for Bigger gym. They still suck.
Gamecock Basketball sucks so bad with 5,000 fans in a 20,000 seat arena.
I like the slightly more intimate and more comfortable Littlejohn.
Also btw Dabo is a unicorn. Every team in college football and basketball is looking for the next unicorn like Coach Swinney or Shaka Smart....oh well forget Shaka...that hasn't panned out...??
Coach Brownell is a classy guy. Knows basketball. LIKES being at Clemson. Is good to his players. Respected by his peers. And has beaten UNC 3 out of 4 times and should have won the other one. (Stupid cheatin refs.)
Basketball world is Crazy right now. I prefer stability in this Corona & transfer & 1 and done storm. ALSO we had a pretty good team this year! And I enjoyed the $h1t out of watching them play. Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4370]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Exhibit A when it comes to Clemson not supporting basketball
Apr 24, 2021, 12:00 PM
|
|
CJ Spiller just started as running backs coach and his salary is $300,000 compared to the new basketball coach at $275,000.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [50655]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
Posts: 36966
Joined: 2003
|
Exactly.***
Apr 26, 2021, 4:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [22308]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
Posts: 18026
Joined: 2005
|
Exactly what?
Apr 27, 2021, 6:51 PM
|
|
Does revenue generated play in to this? Because clearly there is no comparison there.
You don't fire Brad after a tourney year, but we have a basketball assistant now approaching half a million. No one is beating down the door to hire away #### Bender. How much should he earn?
Schools where football shoulders the load for basically every other sport and have had the success weve had are clearly going to pay the staff a ton. Schools like Duke, Syracuse, UVa, even UNC, where basketball is more on par with football will reflect that in what they pay.
And tons of NCAA basketball schools dont even have football, or are FCS or lower. Basketball is the main attraction, so of course they'd pay more. The big dog always eats the most
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2393]
TigerPulse: 93%
32
|
Take it from Brad's contract.he makes 3 times too
Apr 25, 2021, 1:47 PM
|
|
Much
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 68
| visibility 3157
|
|
|
50
