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MVP [538]
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Dribble penetration against a zone
Mar 3, 2021, 7:08 PM
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Is how the offense should play. So frustrating how early in the game on the outside we sit around and pass it without trying to dribble penetrate.
I played high school basketball back in the early 80s. . The Furman coach back then had some connection to Bobby Knight. Believe it or not, our entire team attended a Bobby Knight coaching session at Furman in I think 1983.
I remember it like yesterday because I couldn’t believe I was within 10 yards of the great Bobby Knight. This was when he was at the height of his success. He preached that you have to penetrate a zone with dribble penetration and bring 2 defenders on you to open things up.
You would think Brownell being an Indiana guy would understand how to attack a Zone better. Every time we play Syracuse early in the game our guards just pass around the zone without dribbling at all. That is exactly what Syracuse wants you to do. What generally happens every time Clemson plays Syracuse is the players finally figure out on their own and start trying to penetrate more with the dribble. But you can tell they aren’t coached to do that. I am overall a Brownell fan, but every time they play Syracuse I get so frustrated with how he coaches them to attack the zone.
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Heisman Winner [86160]
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Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 7:10 PM
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you are missing all your outside shots so that the zone sags inside and leaves shooters open on the perimeter because they have no fear of them making a shot.
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MVP [538]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 7:13 PM
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But at the beginning of the game they should at least try it and make the zone not just sit back and be in front of the players. I’ve noticed this for years when Clemson plays Syracuse. It drives me crazy.
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Heisman Winner [86160]
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I don't have any problem admitting that The Nasal Gardener
Mar 3, 2021, 7:17 PM
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is a better coach than Brad Brownell, even at this late stage of his career.
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Clemson Icon [27824]
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+1 for "The Nasal Gardener"...***
Mar 5, 2021, 8:54 AM
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Walk-On [141]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 7:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when ] |
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I believe Trapp tried 3-4 times to drive the zone only to run into 3 defenders. I don't think we have the skill level with anyone who can penetrate regularly - a we have had in previous years. Also couldn't get the ball inside effectively - just a tough game.
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MVP [538]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 8:15 PM
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Yeah trap had a bad game. And he had a great game against Syracuse in the first game at Clemson.
I’m not saying the guards have to penetrate completely inside the zone. But they can at least take a couple of dribbles and get a couple of people on them and then someone will be open. To sit there and pass without dribbles which is what Clemson did early in the game is just stupid. I don’t understand what Brownell was thinking with that strategy
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Game Day Hero [4379]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 8:24 PM
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Trapp tried but got himself trapped and resulted in turnovers. Dawes, Honor, or Hunter probably better option for dribble drive. Tyson had a tough game. He seems to have a flawed understanding of his ability to play above the rim and blocks/missed layups are too often the result. Simms was also struggling.
Brownell spent practice time this week having the team play dodgeball to help them relax and get refreshed. I didn’t see a benefit from that approach today.
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Heisman Winner [86160]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 3, 2021, 8:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when ] |
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Again, even a guard with superior ball handling skills can't dribble penetrate a zone that has already sagged everybody into the lane because the opposition can't put the ball in the basket from outside.
I will say, given our past experience with Syracuse, we should have tried this dribble penetration from the get go. But, given THEIR past experience with our poor shooting, they were sagging inside from the get go today. So, with no viable outside game, as Eeyoore says, "We'eeere Dooooomed".
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Rival Killer [2772]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 4, 2021, 12:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when ] |
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So you penetrate, but that doe snot mean you must go to the hop and shoot. You penetrate, then pitch out. You do this a few times and holes open up. Yes, I coached for 11 years 
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Orange Blooded [3066]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when
Mar 4, 2021, 12:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone is very hard to do when ] |
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We missed 30 shots from inside the 3 point line tonight. Can we make those in a game that matters? I expected us to wilt vs the 'Cuse on the road. Our road record this season is not very good, folks. We did get Miami and Wake on the road, as did most of their opposition. Too bad, Brad and the staff should have a better feel for how a game is going. When Simms ends up with 6 and Honor with zero points, you should acknowledge the offensive game plan was pretty poor. Then you find a staff member with a wiser scheme to plan for the upcoming opponents. We should have at least 3 left this season w/Pitt and at least 1 game each in ACC and NCAA tournaments to look forward to viewing.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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So a player not executing well = poor gameplan by the coach?***
Mar 4, 2021, 4:04 PM
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Starter [291]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone
Mar 3, 2021, 8:35 PM
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Tevin Mack had his best game of his Clemson career versus the Syracuse zone. He was stationed at the foul line. Guards were able to pass the ball and he must have made about six consecutive shots from the free throw line.
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MVP [538]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone
Mar 3, 2021, 9:12 PM
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Yes good point. I remember that game. They are very few guys that can get the the ball in the middle of the zone at the foul line and score but Devin could do that in a great way. Usually what happens against that Syracuse zone is you get it into the foul line to someone and they can’t deal with it and get trapped and cause a turnover.
What I wish they would do is not dribble penetrate to the point they are trapped, but just a couple dribbles were two guys come to you and then clearly the wing guy will be open. We just never seem to do this. Either we pass it around the zone with no dribbles or we try to penetrate with several drills and get trapped. Seems that Brownell after going against the Syracuse zone for 11 years now could figure out a better way to attack it. It’s not like Syracuse is zone is great against all the other opponents.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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So having a winning record against Syracuse
Mar 4, 2021, 4:14 PM
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and beating them by 17 points earlier this season leads you to the conclusion that Brownell can't figure out how to attack Syracuse's zone?
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Rival Killer [2772]
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Re: Dribble penetration against a zone
Mar 4, 2021, 12:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone ] |
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Yes, there are ways to defeat a zone. But you do need to hit your shots when they are they. So we were doomed twice over. When Simms can hit a shot inside the lane and we don't move the ball well enough to create gaps and opportunities . . you're doomed.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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Yes, and we didn't have anyone last night who could hit that
Mar 4, 2021, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dribble penetration against a zone ] |
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shot. We tried multiple times. I know Simms and Hall missed jumpers from that position. I believe Baehre did as well.
I am not sure what else a coach is supposed to do when adjustments are made, including having multiple different players take that shot, and no one made one. We shot 33% last night on two pointers. That's awful.
Since we couldn't penetrate on them, the only other solution is to look for open perimeter shots. The three pointer was our best weapon last night, as we made 34.5% of those.
Unfortunately, Syracuse had a run early in the first half when they got hot and we couldn't stop them. That was the difference in the game.
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Rival Killer [2772]
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Re: Yes, and we didn't have anyone last night who could hit that
Mar 4, 2021, 10:27 PM
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Baehre missed easy shots too. Playing in a venue that looks so different can have an effect. I remember my team playing at the Univ of MD during a championship and there was so much distance behind the baskets it effected the kids. So I know going up to Syracuse is difficult. All I can sat is last night was pathetic. I knew we were done when they got four 3pt shots right in a row ( offensive rebounds) and finally made the 4th. I knew it was over then. And to his credit, I did see Brad get upset at that point. Many times I don't se the emotion from him.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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Let me get this straight.
Mar 4, 2021, 4:00 PM
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You believe that Coach Brownell, who is a former college basketball player and has been a college basketball coach for the entirety of his adult life, with multiple coach of the year awards and NCAA Tournament appearances on his resume, who has never been fired as a head coach, who has made millions of dollars coaching basketball and is very well respected by his peers, doesn't understand how to coach against a zone defense?
Please, answer the question. I'd love to hear your answer.
Attacking a zone is simple in philosophy. You make the zone move, hoping to exploit a hole in the zone or a defender who is slow to react. You can do that by driving the ball or passing the ball around the perimeter. If you'll notice, we incorporate a lot of ball fakes when we face a zone. Again, that's to get the zone to move.
Syracuse is a long, athletic team. Boeheim is in the hall of fame for a reason. He's a really good coach. If beating his teams were as easy as simply telling players to drive to the basket, and players had an easy time doing that, Boeheim wouldn't have been so successful.
We did attempt to drive the ball on occasion, and it got us nowhere. If we were easily able to drive, we would've done that until we couldn't anymore.
We attempted to find holes in the Syracuse defense, including flashing a player to the elbow to try to get a quick shot. We missed just about every one of these shots.
Looking at the stats, we shot the ball well enough from the outside to win. We were 10-29 on three pointers, 34.5%. I'll take that percentage all day. The problem is that we were only 10-30 on two pointers, 33%. That's really bad.
I know it's fashionable to blame the coach when things don't go our way, especially when it's Brownell. But I thought we had a good game plan last night and got pretty good shots. We just didn't make enough of the ones inside the three point line. If we shot anywhere close to our normal average on two pointers, we would've won this game. For the year, we are shooting 49% on twos. Last night, shooting 49% on twos rather than 33% would've resulted in an extra 10 points. There's your difference (we lost by 10).
Sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way enough times. It stinks, but we will bounce back against Pitt on Saturday for Senior Day.
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Rival Killer [2772]
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Re: Let me get this straight.
Mar 4, 2021, 10:30 PM
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There were many makeable shots that were missed yesterday. The lack of player confidence was showing ion the other end of the floor too. It was slipped way out of their hands. It's a shame, and also an attribute of our team.
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Replies: 19
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