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Replies: 59
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:13 PM
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My good friend Judge Keller® says:
“ Your ability to argue with data and facts is unparalleled.
Based on multiple metrics, most importantly wins, the last three seasons are the best three year stretch in program history. Yet here you are, challenging the numbers.”
Since I’m bothering to do the work, I thought more folks might want to see it than would if it was buried in a sub-thread. I reject his premise in its entirety. The only metric available to rank basketball teams over an extended period of time is the SRS system in Sports Reference. Each season is ranked on numerical scale determined by an average team of each season. While high scores are going to correlate to better seasons they can’t be compared directly over seasons. A more useful measure would be where that team ranked within in that season.
From 2023-25 Clemson basketball’s SRS score is an average of 38th. Even Brownell himself has a better run as does every coach since Foster other than Shyatt:
2017-2019 Brownell 32nd
2008-2010 Purnell 17th
1997-1999 Barnes 20th
1988-1990 Ellis 38th (tied)
1977-1979 Foster 30th
Another metric that is available is RPI which is available through 1988. 2023-2025 ranked an average 39th.
2017-2019 Brownell 43
2008-2010 Purnell 33
1997-1999 Barnes 34
1988-1990 Ellis 33rd
Purnell and Barnes had better three year stretches by both metrics. Ellis has a better stretch by RPI and tied in SRS. Foster 1977-1979 was a better stretch by SRS and most certainly be by RPI if available. Judging the results of the last three seasons purely on win count nd disregarding changes in competition is a perfect example of recency and selection bias. If one wants to assign an outsize value to making the Elite 8, that is certainly within their right to do so. But that doesn’t somehow drag 2023 into the tier of good seasons. Of the 15 RPI ranks that comprise these averages, 2023 is dead last. Of the 18 SRS ranks, 2023 is dead last.
That’s multiple metrics that say the opposite of JK’s assertion. And for those in the back, I don’t hate Brad Brownell. I don’t think he’s a bad coach. I just don’t think he’s a great coach. Yet we have paid him like a great coach. And with his last deal we moved him into the category of elite coaches - which he is far from. He is the second highest paid coach in the league, a station he has never achieved at the end of a regular season or ACC tournament. We continue to tether the program to him at great real and opportunity cost.
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Ring of Honor [21886]
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Still filibustering,
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:15 PM
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Jeebus! Take a break!
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Still filibustering,
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:16 PM
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Thanks for the input. Have a great day!
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Clemson Icon [26209]
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Orange Elite [5158]
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This is great.
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:17 PM
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But you're forgetting that over in the basketball program, the word "best" comes with a certain intellectual flexibility not permitted over in the football, baseball, rowing, soccer, softball, gymnastics, track and chess programs.
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CU Medallion [18437]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: This is great.
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:21 PM
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It’s pretty well known that second order thinking is a bit much for a Brownell Bros and third order is right out.
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TigerNet Elite [69764]
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or at least in the world of the CBB lunatic cult.***
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to This is great. ] |
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Dynasty Maker [3438]
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Basketball fans support Brownell
Apr 6, 2025, 3:58 PM
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The BroWnell Haters are the Lunatic Fringe, a small but evil group. The Lunatic Fringe loves basketball losses. That’s why they are losers.
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National Champion [7522]
TigerPulse: 100%
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An SRS, or whatever, is more important than an Elite 8? Your argument is dead***
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:23 PM
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CU Medallion [18437]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: An SRS, or whatever, is more important than an Elite 8? Your argument is dead***
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:31 PM
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So an elite 8 drags up the value of all surrounding seasons? It’s not like I didn’t acknowledge it. 2023 is good because Brad won 3 games at the end of 2024? That’s the proposition. not, does an elite 8 make my animal brain feel good so I forget about anything that’s ever happened before? With another problem being Brad has been here so long that 1/3 of our fanbase can’t remember anything else and just buys the narrative that we have always and inevitably sucked until Saint Brad pulled us into mediocrity.
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110%er [3681]
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Re: An SRS, or whatever, is more important than an Elite 8? Your argument is dead***
Apr 6, 2025, 6:57 PM
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So likewise, a few bad games at the end of the season should not ruin the record setting season, right?
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CU Medallion [18156]
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I hope you get the help you need***
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:23 PM
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Hall of Famer [8330]
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Re: I hope you get the help you need***
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:22 PM
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It's funny how you react the same way every time when presented with facts that point anywhere other than your narrative.
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CU Medallion [18156]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Where are my manifestos?***
Apr 1, 2025, 3:40 PM
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Orange Elite [5158]
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Found one.
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Apr 2, 2025, 7:46 PM
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Paw Master [17020]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:40 PM
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This. Exactly this. You can state the facts, poast the numbers and some will call them wrong. Or you understanding is wrong. Yep. 38th avg is better than 17. Man, my logic courses are ripping their “logic” to shreds. Great poast viztiz
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Heisman Winner [79954]
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Got a big glob on your chin there***
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:40 PM
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Got a big glob on your chin there***
Apr 2, 2025, 1:44 AM
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Seems a bit much. You feeling okay?
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Varsity [118]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:46 PM
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Saying this for last 10 years. Nothing BrownL has done in 15 yeas is any better than the coaches before him. Yet, people want to think he is some perseverant miracle worker.
Fact is, given how bad the ACC is the past few seasons (4 TOURNEY TEAMS!!!) he's actually worse than Barnes and Purnell who coached against national championship legends in a stronger league.
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Hall of Famer [9002]
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The brownL cult defies logic. There is no sense in trying to understand it.***
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Apr 1, 2025, 2:57 PM
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Hall of Famer [9002]
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Looks like I hurt cry baby CM 's feelings. What a pitiful loser LOL***
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:03 PM
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CU Medallion [18156]
TigerPulse: 94%
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You're the one whining here crybaby***
Apr 1, 2025, 3:37 PM
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Heisman Winner [79954]
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And he responded to himself...***
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:51 PM
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: And he responded to himself...***
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Apr 2, 2025, 1:44 AM
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No, a post has been deleted.
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CU Medallion [18156]
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Nope...that dog ain't hunting***
Apr 6, 2025, 3:01 PM
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TigerNet Elite [69764]
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He is the Tommy Bowden of Clemson basketball***
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Best 3 years ever ] |
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CU Medallion [20848]
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It would be awesome if this is true,
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:51 PM
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in the regard that whoever follows next could be a true HOF'er that leads us to greatness.
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TigerNet Elite [69764]
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The fact that CBB is still here after 15 years...
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Apr 1, 2025, 4:16 PM
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more than supports the administration is not interested in a true HOF'er who leads us to greatness.
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Rival Killer [2887]
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1st Rounder [619]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: Best 3 years ever ] |
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Your post makes me want to ask, if you had your choice of all Clemson basketball coaches to be the current head coach, how many would pick Brownell? I would put Brownell top 5, but I think there are some that would debate that. I certainly would have him behind Barnes and Purnell. Tennessee does not have that much better basketball history than we do and Barnes got them to back-to-back elite 8s. Purnell, despite his repeated tournament failings, also had me excited about CUBB.
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Dynasty Maker [3438]
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The only Clemson coach in school history
Apr 6, 2025, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Best 3 years ever ] |
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With a winning record in the ACC. He also wins road games. Something Clemson never did before he arrived. You people need to stop beating him your drum and seeking mysterious ways to trash the basketball program. Clemson has never had a program this good. Ever.
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1st Rounder [619]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:01 PM
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I am not going to join the fray of fire/keep, but appreciate this analysis. Context matter.
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Ultimate Tiger [33306]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:33 PM
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Barnes and Purnell were in a FAR superior ACC and coaching against FAR better talent and legendary coaches.
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MVP [542]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 4:33 PM
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I’ve been following Clemson basketball since 1988. Last year’s elite 8 run is the bast season I can remember. That was a legit Final 4 contender. We didn’t kick our way into the elite 8.
This past season is the most hollow and deflating season I can remember. I don’t care about 27 wins. I don’t care about 18 conference wins. The ACC was clearly down. The post season defines you. Teams get upset in the tournament. It happens, but to lose to a team in that fashion w a sr led team, an experienced team is baffling.
Only it isn’t bc as much as I would have liked to have been shocked that we absolutely laid an egg… it really isn’t that surprising.
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TigerNet Elite [76488]
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the ACC was NOT DOWN this year!!!!! NOT. NOT. NOT. !!!!
Apr 1, 2025, 6:14 PM
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reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 4:48 PM
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Judge, just change your criteria and say it’s the best 8 year stretch in Clemson BB history. 🙂
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Tiger Titan [50654]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Wow you wasted a lot of time.
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Apr 1, 2025, 6:28 PM
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You are still ignoring wins, which are what matter.
Please try again.
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CU Medallion [18437]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Wow you wasted a lot of time.
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Apr 1, 2025, 7:00 PM
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No. You are moving goalposts as usual. Counting “only wins” is stupid because it does nothing to account for strength of schedule. You’re actually trying to pretend a 18 team league where you only play most teams once is equal to playing Tobacco Road away every year. So your multiple metrics is one metric: total wins. Your midwit followers might not understand why that doesn’t work but not even the NCAA accepts that alone as a viable gauge of performance.
But since you’ve asserted it I wouldn’t want you to make a hypocrite of yourself in the future. Clemson football won 30 games in the past three seasons. Only one other coach has matched that accomplishment. None have exceeded it. Since wins alone are all that matter to you, regardless of context, it’s probably time for you to quit referencing Dabo at all. Since his “decline” and “disappointing” season match the greatest stretch achieved by any other coach here. Your rules, you should play by them.
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Wow you wasted a lot of time.
Apr 1, 2025, 7:36 PM
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Sounds like we need a sod cemetery for basketball. Maybe a court crematory and columbarium. Love that idea. Chipping some court away on Chapel Hill and lighting it on fire. Then it’s meaningful, right? 🙂
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Wow you wasted a lot of time.
Apr 1, 2025, 7:47 PM
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How many tombstones per coach? Ranked away of neutral victories only.
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Tiger Titan [50654]
TigerPulse: 79%
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You created a thread arguing against wins being the defining factor
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Apr 1, 2025, 10:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wow you wasted a lot of time. ] |
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for program success, yet you are accusing me of moving the goalposts?
LOL.
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CU Medallion [18437]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: You created a thread arguing against wins being the defining factor
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Apr 2, 2025, 1:43 AM
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You used the phrase “multiple metrics”. I explained this quite clearly. You’re obfuscating which is what you do when you’re losing. Next you’ll ignore me again and say mean things about Dabo to tick everyone else off. You also had that gall to say I’m the one moving goalposts in a thread changing the standard from 3 seasons to 8. Seriously, just take the “L” for once in your life before one of your followers blows a gasket and gets banned. It usually follows when you’re getting thoroughly trounced like this.
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Orange Elite [5158]
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All-American [556]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 7:11 PM
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OP We got beat by the coots in football the last 2 out of 3 years…your numbers are garbage🤣
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Paw Warrior [5047]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:22 PM
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Good analysis- thanks for bringing facts and not just opinion.
You will get a lot of hate and complaints from the Brownell legion of mediocrity.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:56 PM
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I'm a CBB defender because he's the current coach and he's gotten us to the dance 2 yrs in a row. Should be 3 but they picked a team we beat 3 times instead. No statistics needed to know that he won 27 games (somehow we're told that 18 would be ok), beat the likely natty and Kentucky and UNC, were ranked as high as 10th, and were one of 37 at large bids to the NCAA tournament. Just my opinion, but I think our players are average and none will be drafted. I think you have to give coach at least a little credit.
If we could lure a bright assistant or a HC from a great team, I'd be all for it. I just have doubts that they'd come here to work against tobacco road. But, never say never.
I think it's ok to make a case for a change, but not belittle or degrade our coach. Just makes me doubt that you have a closet full of orange and are a lifer fan.
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 1, 2025, 10:05 PM
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Facts!
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Orange Elite [5204]
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And yet unfortunately were stuck with Brownell.***
Apr 6, 2025, 4:30 PM
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TigerNet Elite [70343]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 6, 2025, 5:03 PM
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Brad is certainly not the best coach Clemson has ever had, but he is who we’ve got so let’s support him. Go Tigers!!!
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Game Changer [1870]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 7:04 PM
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The takeaway is none of them are really any good. It's that 4th year Brad has now. We've spent the money to keep him, where we didn't with the other guys. Will year 4 be progress? That's the $100? Million question at this point question.
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 7:48 PM
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I've been here for 27 years or 30 years as you have mused to disparage my existence many times.
I'll throw the challenge out again.....
Show your earliest post/reply, and I'll show you mine. You clam up every time I challenge you on your "I wasn't active until the last two years" lies. Prove me wrong.
Or go on to one your tired (& disproved), "I am a multiple handle user." statements. It's a standard defense from you. Not really surprised. That and the scok defense, kinda your go to. LOL!
If yours is older, I'll leave for 6 months. Mine, you do the same.
Viztiz is FOS. Some of the 67%ers have learned this, recently.  ">">">">">
Go Tigers!
viztiz
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CU Medallion [18437]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 11:23 PM
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B-Meist®
This is the psycho stuff the welcomes me when I check into TNet for the evening.
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 11:29 PM
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Buckle up, bout to rage post, your crap prediction. Got nothing, do you? 🙂
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CU Medallion [18437]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 11:35 PM
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B-Meist®
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 6, 2025, 11:44 PM
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Scary. I’ve asked you to show you hand. Got anything? Nope.
Sorry mods, this dude can only cry wolf. Shocker.
B-Meist®
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 6, 2025, 11:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Best 3 years ever ] |
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Yet you cry to the mods yet blame me🙂 Predictable.
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Asst Coach [807]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
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Apr 6, 2025, 10:45 PM
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My good friend Judge Keller® says: “ Your ability to argue with data and facts is unparalleled. Based on multiple metrics, most importantly wins, the last three seasons are the best three year stretch in program history. Yet here you are, challenging the numbers.” Since I’m bothering to do the work, I thought more folks might want to see it than would if it was buried in a sub-thread. I reject his premise in its entirety. The only metric available to rank basketball teams over an extended period of time is the SRS system in Sports Reference. Each season is ranked on numerical scale determined by an average team of each season. While high scores are going to correlate to better seasons they can’t be compared directly over seasons. A more useful measure would be where that team ranked within in that season. From 2023-25 Clemson basketball’s SRS score is an average of 38th. Even Brownell himself has a better run as does every coach since Foster other than Shyatt: 2017-2019 Brownell 32nd 2008-2010 Purnell 17th 1997-1999 Barnes 20th 1988-1990 Ellis 38th (tied) 1977-1979 Foster 30th Another metric that is available is RPI which is available through 1988. 2023-2025 ranked an average 39th. 2017-2019 Brownell 43 2008-2010 Purnell 33 1997-1999 Barnes 34 1988-1990 Ellis 33rd Purnell and Barnes had better three year stretches by both metrics. Ellis has a better stretch by RPI and tied in SRS. Foster 1977-1979 was a better stretch by SRS and most certainly be by RPI if available. Judging the results of the last three seasons purely on win count nd disregarding changes in competition is a perfect example of recency and selection bias. If one wants to assign an outsize value to making the Elite 8, that is certainly within their right to do so. But that doesn’t somehow drag 2023 into the tier of good seasons. Of the 15 RPI ranks that comprise these averages, 2023 is dead last. Of the 18 SRS ranks, 2023 is dead last. That’s multiple metrics that say the opposite of JK’s assertion. And for those in the back, I don’t hate Brad Brownell. I don’t think he’s a bad coach. I just don’t think he’s a great coach. Yet we have paid him like a great coach. And with his last deal we moved him into the category of elite coaches - which he is far from. He is the second highest paid coach in the league, a station he has never achieved at the end of a regular season or ACC tournament. We continue to tether the program to him at great real and opportunity cost.
Get a life. The Clemson AD's and many fans and announcers don't agree with you about BB. Why limit to 3 years your analysis? Is it because some of your coaches wouldn't stick it out at Clemson? How many of your coaches have ever beat UNC at UNC or beat all the North Carolina schools in the same year? And, SOS is absurd and prejudiced to other conferences with schools with journalism.
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Rival Killer [2903]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 6, 2025, 11:14 PM
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Just so quiet. We’ll see if they have a set. Not holding breath. 🙂
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Legend [6945]
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Re: Best 3 years ever
Apr 7, 2025, 11:00 AM
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Numbers are just numbers and need context.
Is JK right when he (presumably) said that the last 3 years were the best when looking at wins?
Yes, at least going back to OP days (didn't go further back, assuming Ellis didn't match or eclipse them)
2022-2025
W: 74
L: 29
%: .718
2006-2009
W: 72
L: 31
%: .689
Not a huge difference but technically these last three ARE better
However total wins are not the best metric or the only metric. One could argue that tropies or at least title game appearances are equally or more important. There are probably metrics that either side touts as the most important, they'd be both right and wrong when arguing over the obvious big ones.
Heck one could make an argument that we should look at trailing averages to normalize for anomalies and potentially track growth of the program. Sans the COVID super-senior phenomenon, most players can stay a MAX of 5 years. This is what this would look like.
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