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Game Day Hero [4289]
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Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
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Mar 22, 2024, 6:42 AM
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Loses the game today? I saw someone pose this on a local Clemson Club chat board. Several argued that the long term program success was going to only be possible with a new coach. We know what we’ve had for 14 years and will continue to have with Brownell they lobbied, so they hoped a loss would change the future. Others argued a fan can NEVER be happy with a loss (though interestingly one commented they felt there’s zero chance we would win more than 2 games and and also felt like Brad’s future results will continue to be on par with the past decade). What say ye - can that first group truly be Clemson fans?
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Paw Master [17597]
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Its a hard no for me***
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Mar 22, 2024, 7:01 AM
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Hall of Famer [8594]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
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Mar 22, 2024, 7:02 AM
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I want Brownell gone as much as anyone but I’m not hoping for a loss. I don’t think most Tiger fans will be either.
Those who live in reality though don’t see much hope for real success now or in the future. Just making the tournament is not success unless you have a loser mentality.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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THIS IS SUCCESS.
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:27 AM
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Some of you are acting like we aren't very good and haven't had a really good season.
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Ultimate Tiger [33399]
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The Brownell Paradox
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Mar 22, 2024, 7:45 AM
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Knowing that long term success is impossible with your current coach but pulling for your team because you are a fan, thus insuring long term failure.
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Valley Legend [12906]
TigerPulse: 98%
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Re: The Brownell Paradox
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Mar 22, 2024, 7:55 AM
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The crazy thing is based on our program history, we are currently experiencing LTS with our current coach.
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CU Medallion [18465]
TigerPulse: 100%
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No, we arent
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:10 AM
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://
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Hall of Famer [9052]
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Orange Blooded [2392]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
Mar 22, 2024, 10:48 AM
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Don't necessarily agree with long term success but you have no choice but to consider 2 wins in Chapel Hole a success on any level.
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Hall of Famer [8367]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
Mar 22, 2024, 10:51 AM
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2 wins @ UNC are fantastic. But that does not mean BB's tenure has been a success.
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Ring of Honor [22746]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:55 AM
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In the last 25 years Wake has beaten UNC 14 times and we think beating them twice is fantastic? I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
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Hall of Famer [8367]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:57 AM
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Yes, beating them twice in Chapel Hill after 60 tries is a big deal. It's a terrible history that needed changing.
But...that's not enough. That's like playing 100 hands of poker, losing $500, but calling it a success because you won that one hand 2 hours ago.
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Ring of Honor [22746]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:09 PM
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Relative to OUR history, I agree with you, but that isn't exactly a selling point for most.
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Ring of Honor [22746]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: What success? Absolute clown response.*** ] |
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Too be fair, we have beaten them 9 times in the last 25 years. I see you were talking about the away victories in Chapel Hill.
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Hall of Famer [8367]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
Mar 22, 2024, 12:13 PM
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I'm responding to Rally's post. Scroll up.
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Orange Blooded [2392]
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Re: What success? Absolute clown response.***
Mar 22, 2024, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: What success? Absolute clown response.*** ] |
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I'm not saying that should be a deciding factor in whether BB stays or goes eventually but it certainly matters in the scheme of things to some degree. Something that no other coach in history has done. And to answer the original question no I don't think you can follow anything Clemson and pull for a loss as a true fan.
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Game Changer [1813]
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Game Day Hero [4156]
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What?
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Mar 23, 2024, 11:10 PM
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that finished 6-14 in the conference and tied for 13th place with who cares—
Sorry, my man - this is a lame take.
It doesn't matter if they were 6-14 at season's end because the team quit or top 5 team like this past year. A win in Chapel Hill is a BIG DEAL.
Barnes, OP, Ellis, Foster, etc could not get over the hump there. Brad deserves respect on that front, even if many here don't want him here any longer than the next game.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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What success? Seriously?!?
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to What success? Absolute clown response.*** ] |
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We are in the NCAA Tournament dude. This is only our 14th one in 85 years of the tournament. Brad has four of those 14 appearances, more than any other coach we've had.
He also has a better NCAA Tournament winning percentage here than Cliff Ellis, Rick Barnes, and Oliver Purnell did - who, ironically, are considered by some of you to be better coaches.
We've finished in the top third of the ACC two years in a row, and three of the last four years. Both of those are firsts in program history.
We have a first team All-ACC player this year for just the 16th time in program history. Brad has had 4 of those, more than any other coach in program history.
If you can't see these successes, you're not looking very hard - or you're doing your best to avoid seeing it.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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It's weird how some of our "fans" don't consider this success.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: The Brownell Paradox ] |
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Ultimate Tiger [33399]
TigerPulse: 100%
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You mean making the NCAA every 4 years? With no trophies, no titles...
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Mar 22, 2024, 4:44 PM
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no championships?
That kind of success?
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Game Changer [2005]
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Re: The Brownell Paradox
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Mar 23, 2024, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Brownell Paradox ] |
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Maybe all of this Long Term Success will make Brad an attractive target for another job and we can both move on.
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Paw Warrior [5061]
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Well said. Him winning enough to stay, but hurts Clemson.
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Mar 22, 2024, 9:43 AM
[ in reply to The Brownell Paradox ] |
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This conversation is exactly why he must go.
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110%er [4064]
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After every negative thing that has happened over the past 14 years
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:02 AM
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…it has become practically impossible for me to watch the Tigers play basketball with an OBJECTIVE eye.
Every mishap, turnover, botched offensive possession, missed shot becomes a BLATANT coaching failure.
After calling for his removal in his 3rd year, the subsequent years have become disaster, after disaster, after disaster, with the ability of some of us to see practically nothing good that is happening for the Tigers.
I’ll watch this afternoon’s game until the point where it is clear that they are outmatched and will lose the game.
I’m usually able to make this assessment about halfway through the first half.
It’s really pathetic that my attitude about Clemson basketball has become so tainted. It is why I have called for a 5-year BREAK in Clemson participating in mens basketball. I think a lot of us could use the break.
I guess we’ll see what happens at 3 PM CST today.
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Asst Coach [877]
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Re: After every negative thing that has happened over the past 14 years
Mar 22, 2024, 9:36 AM
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Watching Clemson basketball is just too frustrating. I watch a team go out
and play lights out, look like they can beat anyone on a given night. Then
they drift off into la la land it is surreal at times. It is so disheartening.
I know they can beat anyone if they are on their game. I just hope the consistency
comes back and they go deep into the tourney.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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This happens to all basketball teams.
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:21 AM
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I'm not sure why you expect us to be the exception.
It's a long season of 30+ games, lots of travel, etc. There is also a lot of parity in college basketball. It isn't unreasonable to play better some games than others, to the point that it impacts the outcome.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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I'm sorry that making the NCAA Tournament is such a disaster for you.
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:19 AM
[ in reply to After every negative thing that has happened over the past 14 years ] |
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As are beating ranked teams on the road, winning in Chapel Hill, and having a first-team All-ACC player evidently are also.
Maybe being a basketball fan isn't for you.
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National Champion [7569]
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CU Medallion [18200]
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All-Pro [703]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:11 AM
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Nope
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110%er [3931]
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while they CAN...
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:17 AM
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I think it's a bit silly.
Logically, it's sound. Short term loss (this game) for long term gain (new coach).
But in the real world, there's so much you don't know that makes that math uncertain.
You don't KNOW that you'll get a new coach.
You don't KNOW he'll be better.
Etc....
So the only thing you know for sure is that if you win the game is a positive, and if you lose it's a negative.
Given that, it makes the most sense to just pull for the team to win and let the chips fall where they may.
But I don't call someone 'not a fan' because they take that position.
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TigerNet Elite [69798]
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You can disapprove of a coach all you want...
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:20 AM
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but no self-respecting true Clemson fan would EVER hope for a loss by any of our teams.
American by birth, Clemson Tiger by the grace of God.
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Head Coach [927]
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Top TigerNet [30041]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:21 AM
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I have said before, I like Brad Brownell. He has ran a clean program and all that. That being said, I would never want or hope we lose a game. Do I think Brownell should be replaced, yes.
I know we have never had success in basketball and our history is bleak. However, should we settle for mediocrity? I know that it is hard to build a program in the ACC, but which team has had less success than ours?
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Tiger Titan [50785]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Since when have we been a mediocre basketball team?
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:16 AM
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We've won 20+ games each of the past two years. We've been one of the top third ACC teams. That's not mediocre basketball.
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Hall of Famer [8367]
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Re: Since when have we been a mediocre basketball team?
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:21 AM
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We lost in the NIT first round, the ACCT first round. That's mediocre, at best.
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Game Changer [1813]
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Re: Since when have we been a mediocre basketball team?
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Mar 24, 2024, 12:27 AM
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Yeah but it was Morehead State & in Little John so cut the man some slack—
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Clemson Conqueror [11174]
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One could make the argument that they want the long term good.
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:26 AM
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I think many of us feel that way and also believe BB is not that. However, in the game itself, I would expect every true tiger to be pulling loudly and with every ounce of energy for a tiger win.
FULL TRANSPARENCY: If we are down 20 late in the second half, I fully expect I will turn the game off.
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Orange Elite [5508]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
Mar 22, 2024, 8:40 AM
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No. No fan can hope they lose. Wanting your team to lose is the antithesis of fandom.
Having said that, it is possible to hold multiple seemingly conflicting ideas in one's head simultaneously.
For example, a Presbyterian College football fan can HOPE that they defeat Clemson next time they play, can root for the victory as hard as they can; but they can pretty safely EXPECT to lose at the same time. And they can see the silver lining in the big paycheck they take home for the beating they can anticipate will happen.
Similarly, Clemson basketball fans can HOPE to get to the Final 4 or beyond, and root for that as hard as they can. But they can also, based on past performance, anticipate and be mentally prepared for failure. They can also attempt to find a silver lining in a loss, should an embarrassing loss move the AD to make a coaching change.
Personally, except for consistently doing well on the floor, Brownell has run a good program for the last 14 years, and if Year 14 is THE ONE, the one where Brownell gets over the hump and becomes a "real boy" and not just a cartoon image of a basketball coach, then that'll be great, and we'll move forward with higher hopes and expectations.
OTOH, I don't think Year 14 is going to be any real indication of Brownell "getting it" than Year 6 or Year 11 were. Year 14 was Brownell's "best team ever" in terms of talent and experience, and we saw what that bought us (so far).
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Ultimate Tiger [33723]
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if the fan graduated from Clemson then <pronoun> is a real Clemson fan.***
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:45 AM
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thought this was already well established a millions time son tnet
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CU Medallion [20939]
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The real interlopers may be sub-par mercenary HC's
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Mar 22, 2024, 8:57 AM
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who are only at Clemson because they are paid millions to be there and will be on the next plane out of town when those payments stop.
Clemson alums and fans who supported Clemson Basketball for 30+ years until Brownell's tenure are welcome to their state their positions and are not the bad guys ... I'm ambivalent on the program ... will be happy for the players if they win today ... and will not mourn a loss if it facilitates a new coach and a program rebirth.
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Solid Orange [1355]
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Ready for Brad to go but I've got a Clemson basketball shirt on today
Mar 22, 2024, 9:08 AM
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and will be cheering like crazy for this team to win today, Sunday and beyond.
I don't know why anyone would hope we lose. Although usually with Brad you don't have to hope for the loss, it just happens.
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Playmaker [360]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
Mar 22, 2024, 9:13 AM
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You hope for a bunch of wins, hard to hope for a loss. If we lose first game then hope for new coach but in that order
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Top TigerNet [32927]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
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Mar 22, 2024, 9:18 AM
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After all the letdowns over the past 14 years, how can anyone really get excited? I think the best I can be is "cautiously optimistic" that we win but honestly, I'm not at all sure we beat Los Lobos with their guard play. Brownell has always had troubles adjusting against teams with good guards.
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Paw Warrior [5061]
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Answer is YES. Not my cup of tea, but not up to me to decide their fandom.
Mar 22, 2024, 9:40 AM
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I want Brad gone, I can see the merits of their argument - just not my way though.
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Paw Warrior [4856]
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
Mar 22, 2024, 9:50 AM
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You have to root for your team to succeed. Especially for the players.
At the same time I know I’m setting myself up for failure because the only way I’ll be satisfied with keeping BB would be for us to make the elite 8. If we make the elite 8 I’d finally be quiet on the fire BB stuff.
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Hall of Famer [9052]
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Win or lose, I want brownL gone.
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Mar 22, 2024, 9:57 AM
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And before you ask, born and bred Clemson fan, graduated CU in 02. Degree hanging on my office wall.
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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There seem to be a lot of people here who want us to lose today.
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:12 AM
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They want to say "I told you so!" and also have another justification in their minds to get rid of Brownell.
In reality, making the NCAA Tournament is a big accomplishment for our program. This is just our 14th appearance in a tournament that started 85 years ago. Brad has the most NCAA Tournament appearances in program history, as well as the most wins. Most schools would celebrate that, but not some of our fans. No, they think he's horrible and want to see him fail.
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Hall of Famer [8367]
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Re: There seem to be a lot of people here who want us to lose today.
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Mar 22, 2024, 11:13 AM
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* Brad has the most losses in program history
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Top TigerNet [32927]
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Hall of Famer [9052]
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Tiger Titan [50785]
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Tell me you don't know much about college basketball
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:06 PM
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without telling me you don't know much about college basketball.
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1st Rounder [604]
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Re: Tell me you don't know much about college basketball
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Mar 22, 2024, 1:15 PM
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It is time for a new coach..... WIN OR LOSE!
Clemson deserves better!
Brownlee is like getting aspirin for Christmas.
But it is an off brand and doesn't relieve your headache!
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Hall of Famer [9052]
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CU Medallion [19274]
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Re: There seem to be a lot of people here who want us to lose today.
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Mar 22, 2024, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to There seem to be a lot of people here who want us to lose today. ] |
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They want to say "I told you so!" and also have another justification in their minds to get rid of Brownell.
In reality, making the NCAA Tournament is a big accomplishment for our program. This is just our 14th appearance in a tournament that started 85 years ago. Brad has the most NCAA Tournament appearances in program history, as well as the most wins. Most schools would celebrate that, but not some of our fans. No, they think he's horrible and want to see him fail.
You say that Coach Brownell has been to the most NCAATs -4,
But that is in 14 years.
Cliff Ellis did 3 in 10 years, Barnes did 3 in 4 years, and Purnell did in 7 years.
What would they have done in 14 years?
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CU Medallion [18465]
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Re: There seem to be a lot of people here who want us to lose today.
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Mar 23, 2024, 4:35 PM
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I posted numerous time that Brad makes the tourney (counting this year) 28.5% of the time and everyone else in the 65 team era made in 36% of the time. Take Shyatt out of the equation it is Brad 28.5% everyone else 45%. For some reason none of the Bros want to acknowledge it
Edit:
Brad has now won a Round of 64 game 14% of the time as a head coach. His predecessors, minus Shyatt, 15%. Can we stop bashing Clemson by pretending we’re in uncharted territory?
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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CU Medallion [18200]
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CU Medallion [18465]
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Re: We know exactly what they would have done...they would have left, some ASAP***
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Mar 24, 2024, 12:23 AM
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So you admit you settle for mediocrity out of fear of a better coach leaving? Interesting take for such an internet tough guy.
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CU Medallion [18200]
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Where did I admit anything tough guy?***
Mar 24, 2024, 12:50 AM
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CU Medallion [18465]
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CU Medallion [18200]
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I see no admissions in that post, just a statement of the facts***
Mar 24, 2024, 3:52 AM
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Game Changer [1813]
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National Champion [7569]
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CU Medallion [18200]
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who took the 2nd bus out of town...Left for $50K more***
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Mar 24, 2024, 12:51 AM
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Orange Phenom [14599]
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No!***
Mar 22, 2024, 12:06 PM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102960]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Posts: 98975
Joined: 2009
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No.
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Mar 22, 2024, 1:23 PM
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I've been a Tiger for 45 years and I never hoped Clemson would lose.
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CU Guru [1054]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
Mar 22, 2024, 1:26 PM
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Win, win, win!
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Orange Blooded [2503]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
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For me, never***
1
Mar 22, 2024, 4:45 PM
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Solid Orange [1394]
TigerPulse: 100%
28
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
1
Mar 23, 2024, 7:04 PM
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Who’s to say who a true Clemson fan is? I know your question is hypothetical but, it’s silly. Pull for the Tigers or admit to being a jack***(aka donkey).
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Playmaker [350]
TigerPulse: 100%
16
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Re: Hypothetical - can a true Clemson fan actually hope the Bball team
Mar 23, 2024, 10:49 PM
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No. The answer is simple.
We are a family. We can fight like crazy among ourselves, but against any outsider we band together and try to take their head off.
Mr. Greenjeans on Captain Kangaroo taught me this lesson when I was age 6. He had a bunch of sticks, each representing a member of the family. He could break any one of the sticks quite easily. But when he bundled the sticks together, he couldn't break them with all his might.
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Dynasty Maker [3459]
TigerPulse: 70%
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The Lunatic Fringe has a working crystal ball
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Mar 23, 2024, 11:44 PM
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That always see failure. Some how they lnwwqZero appreciation for one of the most programs in America. He lives with the comstant pressure of hot seat talk and continues to produce positive results. He need an extension and the backing of the administration. This talk of firing every season is ridiculous and needs to cease.
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CU Medallion [18465]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11994
Joined: 2007
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Re: The Lunatic Fringe has a working crystal ball
Mar 24, 2024, 1:16 AM
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I notice you haven’t said anything about our tremendous baseball performance today? Can you just say something positive about tremendous team?
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Rival Killer [2610]
TigerPulse: 90%
33
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So you're saying what now?
Mar 24, 2024, 4:58 PM
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The Wake Forest loss for TB that led to Dabo's hiring - that was a bad loss? Elaborate on this.
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Replies: 72
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