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YOUR BALANCE
My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball
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My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 26, 2022, 8:42 PM
Brad v ACC.pdf(32.7 K)

Dear Tnetters,

Just laid out my opinion of what standards should be in response to another poster on another thread. Then compared them to Brad's actual results. Summary here:

1) Finish in top half of ACC (better than 8th) 75% of time: Fail. Brad's done it 25% of the time.
2) Make the NCAAT 50% of the time: Fail. He's done it 22% of the time.
3) Finish in the top 25% of the acc 25% of the time: Fail. He's done it 8% of the time.
4) Win an NCAAT game 25% of the time: Fail. 8% again.

Got me to wondering how other teams currently in the ACC have done relative to the fightin' Brads and vs. my expectations. Didn't come up with all the answers, but did find some interesting data, and you can't argue against data. Allow me to present you the science so that you may follow it blindly.

The attached table compiles win-loss records (conference and overall), NCAAT appearances, and NCAAT wins for current ACC basketball teams since 2010-2011 (Cuse, ND, and Louisville ACC records are 2014 and beyond since they weren't in the conference before then). Here's what sticks out to me:

Brad has the 9th best conference win percentage at 48%.
Brad has the 12th most NCAAT appearances.
Brad has the 10th most NCAAT wins.
Of the 5 teams with fewer NCAAT wins than Brad since 2011, 2 of them (Ga Tech and Va Tech) own the last 2 conference tournament championships.
Of the 6 teams that trail Brad in conference winning percentage, 3 have won fewer than a third of their games, i.e. they have been pretty much awful.

Now we can argue about expectations (mine are higher than above results) and what's fair (I think Brad's gotten a pretty fair shake) all day long, but the science says that Brad's tenure has been middling at best if not downright mediocre.

Sincerely,
a turd fan

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 26, 2022, 8:53 PM

good post.

Listen to Brad's confidence today. That says all you need to know how short of a leash he is on...

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 26, 2022, 9:16 PM

Fair post and points made.

We have significantly improved in results and talent level over the last 5 years. There was more of a case to get rid of brownell after year 6 or 7 than now.

I think brownell is a really good person and coach. Recruiting has been the issue and he has recruited better over the last 5 years.

I really like our Freshman this year and I'm really looking forward to seeing them play.

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 26, 2022, 9:35 PM

That is simply a fantasy predicated on a single trip to the Sweet Sixteen. We simply have not improved in results and talent. The talent has actually regressed from an already marginal level the last two years. Our lack of depth is simply unacceptable for a coach of this tenure. We failed to even get an NIT invite last year because we are simply not good. And I'll remind you that yourself, JK, and a handful of others insisted, vehemently, that we upgraded at every position and were going to be significantly better than the year prior. Now you're doing it again. To what end? So that if, somehow, he pulls a rabbit out of his hat and has a decent season we can strap this albatross to ourselves for another 5-7 years of absolute mediocrity. His average finish in the ACC the last five years was 7th. The preceding years was 8th. A move one slot up the totem pole hardly justifies the years and money he has been rewarded with. Jeez, maybe if we promise him $4 million a year for 6 years, he can move us to an average finish of 6th. But he'll still make the NCAA tourney less than half time.

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it’s past your bedtime***


Jul 26, 2022, 9:47 PM [ in reply to Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball ]



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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 10:58 AM [ in reply to Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball ]

At some point better talent with good coaching has to turn into wins, right?

Not sure I agree about the talent improving.

I know Brad can coach defense but the lack of player development year to year plus the team STILL having 5 minute scoring droughts makes me think the team just doesn't have much talent.

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Since our bench consists of 4 freshmen


Jul 27, 2022, 2:01 PM [ in reply to Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball ]

1 sophomore, and the 11th guy a freshman, they better be the fab 4 for us to do anything this season.

Reminder-Brad has never recruited an impact freshman

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I have no expectations for basketball season, other than the


Jul 27, 2022, 11:04 AM

surety that Lucy will yank the ball away at the last second, once again. "Good Grief!"

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For reference


Jul 27, 2022, 12:03 PM

Fsu, notre dame and miami, all football schools coincidentally, have had roughly the level of success I’m talking about over the last 12 years. Some googling shows all those teams’ hc’s make less than brad.

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Maybe this table will be viewable


Jul 27, 2022, 1:34 PM

Original attachment didn’t work on my phone

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 1:53 PM

We have a sub mediocre record led by a sub mediocre coach.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


This is the kind of overly simplistic view of Clemson basketball I’ve come to expect here.


Jul 27, 2022, 3:06 PM

Now look at how we rank relative to the rest of the ACC in terms of support for basketball. How much do we spend on our program every year relative to other ACC schools? How does our basketball attendance compare to other ACC schools?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Our stadium is a good environment...


Jul 27, 2022, 3:14 PM

when our team is good. And that should be ok for basketball if it's ok for football...

"Their stadiums are good environments when their teams are good." - JK



https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/i-hear-what-youre-saying-30970596



Message was edited by: Francis Marion®


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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


It's really cute how you save my posts


Jul 27, 2022, 3:18 PM

to use later.

As expected, your attempt to use these comments against me somehow was a huge fail.

Did you want to weigh in on how our administrative and fan support for basketball compares to other ACC schools, or do you need to sit this one out?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I want to know why fan support is the product of results...


Jul 27, 2022, 3:20 PM

in football at other schools, and it's a positive, but results are the product of fan support for Clemson basketball, and it's a negative.

It's just confusing, that's all.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


My point has always been that our fan support for


Jul 27, 2022, 4:50 PM

basketball at Clemson is poor, even when we are really good.

You see some fan bases who support their team well regardless of success level. Gamecock football fans are a great example of that. You find the same with some basketball fans. I don't expect our fans to wait in line for tickets every game if we are just okay, but for a middle of the pack ACC team (which we have been under Brad) I would like to see us middle of the pack in the ACC in fan attendance. That simply isn't the case.

It's not a lot to ask for our fans to support our team well, especially when we are typically in contention for the NCAA Tournament many years and our players and coaches work their tails off for Clemson. It would be one thing if we weren't competitive, or didn't put forth good effort. But we are very competitive under Brownell, often falling just short. Those teams could greatly benefit from a strong home court advantage, and sadly they usually do not get it from our fans - at least not consistently.

Excuses abound as to why we don't have better fan support, such as Christmas break, football games, football recruiting, bad weather, etc. Some people blame Brad Brownell, calling him and our style of play boring.

The only excuse that has some validity is that Clemson is not located in a large metropolitan area, however if we can get 80,000+ people in the stadium for football we should be able to get 10,000 for basketball, shouldn't we?

On a regular basis, we are typically well outside the top 50 in average attendance for basketball games, even during our highest attended seasons. So you can see that our fans' passion for basketball pales in comparison to many of our peers in the ACC and nationally. It's telling that the Littlejohn renovation included a reduction in the seating capacity. If we were filling up Littlejohn with regularity, and there was unmet demand for seats, we would've expanded capacity.

Here are our attendance numbers for a recent five year period:

2015-2016
Record: 17-14
Attendance: 8703
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2016.pdf

2016-2017
Record: 17-16
Attendance: 7261
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2017.pdf

2017-2018:
Record: 25-10
Attendance: 7743
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2019/Attendance.pdf

2018-2019:
Record: 20-14
Attendance: 7015
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2020/Attendance.pdf

2019-2020:
Record: 16-15
Attendance: 6832

COVID has obviously created a weird situation the last couple of years, so I only included data through 2019-2020 season.

Our best attendance, by far, was when we played at Bon Secours in Greenville. Some of that was perhaps due to the novelty of playing in that arena for the entire season, but some of it was also that it was more convenient for our fans. That opened up the possibility of people who aren't willing to drive 45 minutes to an hour to see us play in Clemson, but are willing to drive 15-20 minutes, to attend our games with some regularity.

I'd like to see us play more games in Greenville. Part of me wishes we would play all of our games there, but I know that will never happen so playing at least a handful of games each year in Greenville would be nice.

My recent comment (which you linked) about some ACC football teams having good fan support when they are good was in reference to those schools having a core group of fans who care about and support football. The post I responded to made it sound as if schools such as UNC and Georgia Tech don't care about football, and fan support was one example I gave as to why they do care about football. That doesn't really have anything to do with Clemson basketball, but you knew that.

Hope this helps.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


“A recent period” of 5 years!!!!! LMFAO


Jul 27, 2022, 5:06 PM

You really are a simpleton. News flash… boring Brad brownL has been our coach for all 5 of those years. He has been our coach since what, 2008?

I’ve been a Clemson fan since before 2008. I was a freshman in 2002. I vividly remember basketball games being SOLD OUT the last 2-3 years with Purnell. Littlejohn was electric and NOBODY wanted to play us at LJ.

How convenient of you to forget how much fun Clemson basketball games were before boring Brad brownL arrived. All I can do is shake my head at you and give you TDs. Keep grasping at straws, buddy.

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Will Simmons!


Jul 27, 2022, 6:02 PM

I was a freshman n 2002 as well. Those were the days . . . Simpler times . . .

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I don’t recall a basketball player for us named Will Simmons.


Jul 28, 2022, 12:13 PM

Perhaps you’re thinking of Will Solomon?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Nah I'm talking about Willie Simmons


Jul 28, 2022, 1:02 PM

He was the quarterback my freshman year

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Re: “A recent period” of 5 years!!!!! LMFAO


Jul 27, 2022, 8:57 PM [ in reply to “A recent period” of 5 years!!!!! LMFAO ]

tis true, Little John in the last years of Purnell was a very tough environment for opposing teams. Those are the years that I really started watching Clemson basketball. Exciting, loud, electric basketball.

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Feel free to list attendance for other seasons if you’d like.


Jul 28, 2022, 12:12 PM [ in reply to “A recent period” of 5 years!!!!! LMFAO ]

Also let us know just how consistently we sold out Littlejohn in those “glory days” you mentioned. LOL.

I don’t think our games are boring now. I guess that’s just the difference between us.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


How many home games did you make it to last season? TIA***


Jul 29, 2022, 9:24 AM



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


So glad you guys are here


Jul 27, 2022, 5:17 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]

Judge and francis, thank you for all your tnet contributions and for being part of this discussion. Just makes all this more fun.

Judge, to be fair the lack of correlation between gamecock football success and fan attendance is more a function of losersim than anything else. Don’t think the suckiness of gamecock sports fandom should really factor into the consideration of our clemson bball/brad problem

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How many home games did you make it to last season? TIA***


Jul 27, 2022, 8:40 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Re: How many home games did you make it to last season? TIA***


Jul 28, 2022, 12:32 PM



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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: My point has always been that our fan support for


Jul 27, 2022, 9:21 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]

what’s ridiculous is it’s clear you weren’t around for rick or cliff or op. its the product put on the floor by the worst coach in the d@m league. period.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


You expect us to have 10000 people in a 9000 capacity


Jul 27, 2022, 9:25 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]

Arena??? And you think we expect too much out of cbb?

Also, you do realize that our arena capacity is 13th in the ACC, correct?

With that said, for 2019-2020, we were 13th in average attendance(in a down year) and 8th in % Full(meaning attendance/capacity).

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


I hate to say this, but it might be that Brad's style of


Jul 27, 2022, 9:30 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]

basketball is just hard to sit through, even when we are winning at a better clip. Brad himself stated that one of the things that attracted him to Clemson, and why he took this job, was how well the fans responded and turned out to winning basketball, which he felt he could deliver.

We were okay on the winning front early, but the turnout never really kicked in to stay. We tapered off some on production from there, and even during nice runs since, the students and patrons have kind of checked out a bit. And FWIW, Brad hasn't necessarily been an active presence with students or the fan community, despite being here for so long.

I saved this article from a deep dive expedition earlier. It's pertinent here. It might be paywalled for many. It is for me now - my freebies are up.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/despite-bounceback-season-clemson-basketball-attendance-has-dwindled-considerably/article_19ad3036-ddb3-5f9b-a480-ff870f4fc3ab.html


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Constantly putting the onus on fans


Jul 28, 2022, 1:46 PM

is hard to listen to also

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Re: My point has always been that our fan support for


Jul 29, 2022, 8:26 PM [ in reply to My point has always been that our fan support for ]

your "best attendance by far" theory holds no water. In fact, Coach Brownell saw significantly higher attendance than that in his first season as coach. His first season he averaged 9,465. Higher attendance than any of Purnell's season and better than Barnes best season. So, by bringing this up, you've undermined every argument you've made. Brownell was greeted with tremendous fan support and squandered it. Yes, fans might be slightly more willing to watch mediocre basketball in Greenville than in Clemson. But they are prepared to come if there is an exciting product on the floor. History proves it. He was even given the benefit of the doubt and received unprecedented support. Once again, what is the real problem? Because it is not fan support.

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Re: This is the kind of overly simplistic view of Clemson basketball I’ve come to expect here.


Jul 27, 2022, 3:46 PM [ in reply to This is the kind of overly simplistic view of Clemson basketball I’ve come to expect here. ]

Judge, I love your support. However, winning affects the money given by people. We have had over a decade of excuses. Just when it feels their is momentum then comes disappointment. I love basketball. March Madness the first weekend games was a holiday for me when I was younger. Now however with us rarely sniffing the tourney I have lost interest and hope. I cannot see us improving consistently with Brad. It hasn't happened yet.
Sadly, we are the Gamecocks of basketball. Embarrassing moments like never winning in NC that lasted forever, never reaching the Final Four, never having a moment that says Clemson basketball. The only thing Clemson basketball has said is we won't finish last. Firing Brad may not make us better, but at this point we do need a change.
Winning will put butts in the seats and money into the program. Until we can secure a winning program, 20+ wins a year, then we will not see money poured into a bad investment.

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Who put the "L" in BrowneLL


Of course winning generates fan support.


Jul 27, 2022, 4:59 PM

But at Clemson, it seems that consistently strong support for basketball requires a very high standard to be met.

With all of the distractions today, I am not surprised that going to a basketball game isn't at the top of people's priority list. I don't expect everyone to love it like I do. But it sure would be nice for Clemson to be known as a fan base that is unwavering in its support of the basketball team. It would be great if we were exceptional in that way. We aren't.

I believe we can do better, especially since we are typically a highly competitive team, with players and coaches who work their tails off and deserve a strong home court advantage.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Agree but


Jul 27, 2022, 5:23 PM

Yeah it would be great if bball fan support were better but I don’t think it’s accurate that we’re highly competitive or that standards are super high

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Re: Of course winning generates fan support.


Jul 27, 2022, 5:32 PM [ in reply to Of course winning generates fan support. ]

Judge, football support in the seats falls off with crappy coaching. See post Ford years to Dabo’s time.
Judge, baseball support falls off with crappy coaching and teams. See Jacks last years to the new coach now.
Judge, basketball support falls off with crappy coaching and teams. See previous coaching vs Brads.
Coaching changes may not get winning coaching and teams, but for some period of time, the fans give them the benefit of the doubt. The DOUBT is over with Brad!


Message was edited by: tigersnake1954®


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On second thought


Jul 27, 2022, 8:21 PM [ in reply to Of course winning generates fan support. ]

You’re right we are competitive. Maybe not relative to our peers often enough, but yes, it’s high level basketball and not a lot of guys can play at the level of clemson’s program. Brad is the leader too. Respect to that. But surely expectations have been higher than results achieved lo this many years hence, and those who suffer most from that discrepancy are not the fans or the coaches: they’re the players. And that, ultimately, is why Brad needs to go. His best years are behind him and he’s made his money. Let someone else lead the players who give so much effort to the mbb program. Brad can get a job. He’ll be fine. Props to him for all he’s accomplished. Give someone else a chance.

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FIFY Re: Of course winning generates fan support.


Jul 29, 2022, 8:19 PM [ in reply to Of course winning generates fan support. ]

But at every school, it seems that consistently strong support for any sport requires a very high standard to be met.

With all of the distractions today, I am not surprised that going to a sporting event isn't at the top of people's priority list. I don't expect everyone to love sports. It sure would be nice for any school to be known for a fan base that is unwavering in its support of their sports team. It would be great if more schools were exceptional in that way. Most aren't.

I believe all schools can do better since virtually all players and coaches work their tails off and deserve a strong home court advantage.



Coach Brownell is the least successful coach of his tenure length at any P5 school. All the others with decade plus tenures seem to overcome the fickleness of fans - which is not unique to Clemson. It is universal. So, what is really causing his lack of success? What is causing him to enter his 13th season with roster lacking depth and experience? It's hardly the result of peaking with a senior laden team last year. The answer is pretty obvious, but you don't like that answer so you spin and spin and spin.

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 3:27 PM

Great post and not unrealistic at all. I think that this should be post of the day. Brad seems like a nice guy. Nice guys finish last they say haha.

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Who put the "L" in BrowneLL


Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 4:53 PM

I just learned a new word!

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"It is not part of a true culture to tame tigers any more than it is to make sheep ferocious."
--Henry David Thoreau


Didn’t you ever see that movie?


Jul 27, 2022, 8:03 PM

With dicaprio? Bradsketball Diaries?

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Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 9:17 PM

It would be much easier for JK to just copy and paste an old diatribe instead of having to re-type the same ole song every time. It may save him/her arthritic fingers.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Re: My Unrealistic Expectations for Bradsketball


Jul 27, 2022, 9:22 PM

Plus it falls on numbed ears anyway.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


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