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Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
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Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 3:51 PM
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CU Medallion [18158]
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dabo needs to stick to coaching..
Jun 12, 2012, 3:53 PM
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sure his input matters.but in the end the bot needs to look out for clemson dabo wont bee here 30 years from now.
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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He continues to get loose lipped in front of cameras...
Jun 12, 2012, 3:55 PM
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He needs to learn to keep his opinions to himself...he has paid for talking in public on more than one occasion already.
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Varsity [104]
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What?
Jun 12, 2012, 4:04 PM
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"...he has paid for talking in public on more than one occasion already."
Really?
Dabo is fine with these comments. He is head coach, and darn right he has opinions on the matter and darn right he has the right to express them.
P.S. before you go there, I'm not a pro-ACC guy.. unless something drastic changes.
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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Fine...if we stay...If we don't he will look foolish.
Jun 12, 2012, 4:10 PM
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The last coach at Clemson who publicly challenged the board and leadership was let go.
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Varsity [104]
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Okay, so first answer is, "no, not really".
Jun 12, 2012, 4:13 PM
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And I don't think he's "challenged" anyone, has he?
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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Saying it would be a mistake is like saying the BOT is wrong
Jun 12, 2012, 4:15 PM
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if the move is made.
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All-Time Great [88578]
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Not made***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:25 PM
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Varsity [104]
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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He looked like an idiot in his spat with Spurrier.
Jun 13, 2012, 10:36 AM
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He looked like an idiot before the Orange Bowl..."Everyone talking about our defense..." He got his wish.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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All-Time Great [88578]
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All-Pro [665]
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He has a responsibility to speak up when it starts affecting
Jun 12, 2012, 4:41 PM
[ in reply to What? ] |
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recruiting. How can you argue with the man who is hearing it straight from the mouths of recruits and their parents... a move to the Big 12 would be AND HAS ALREADY BEEN detrimental to our recruiting efforts.
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110%er [7834]
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No doubt the Big 12 talk is having some negative impact
Jun 12, 2012, 10:34 PM
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It will not clear up until ....well .....it clears up.
If we make a move we do, if we dont't ....well. you know the answer there too.
The people that want to be Clemson people will be......you guessed it...CLEMSON
And if we play in the Japan league...we'll have a lot more fans and scholarship money.
I am Clemson born and my blood will always be orange!
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110%er [7834]
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All-Time Great [88578]
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All-TigerNet [5860]
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Thank you , that is exactly what he is doing....
Jun 12, 2012, 4:26 PM
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final decisions will not be up to him , but all the conjecture and rumors must be distracting to the recruits ...he is telling the media the same thing he is telling the recruits ...nothing wrong with being honest..
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Varsity [230]
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It all boils down to this
Jun 12, 2012, 4:16 PM
[ in reply to dabo needs to stick to coaching.. ] |
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If Clemson was as committed to the ACC as Dabo and other Univ leaders are saying publicly, they would be vocally and publicly leading the charge for all ACC members to sign a Grant of Rights (like the Big 12 did). That would INSTANTLY end all of these 'harmful' rumors of ACC teams leaving.
But there is no Grant of Rights in the ACC. Either the ACC leaders adore this instability OR too many teams refuse to sign a GOR because they are giving serious consideration to leaving.
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Starter [252]
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Only B12 needs a GOR, BTW when r u going to sign for 13yrs?***
Jun 12, 2012, 11:27 PM
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Game Changer [1624]
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We all just signed a 20 mill grant, we're not going anywhere
Jun 13, 2012, 12:44 AM
[ in reply to It all boils down to this ] |
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 . It's the truth
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Fan [79]
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ACC signed a 20m buyout and FSU & Clemson got it that low
Jun 13, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Others wanted 30+
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110%er [5696]
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Dear Dabo:
Jun 12, 2012, 3:55 PM
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Rumors of moving to the Big XII don't seem to be hurting Jimbo Fisher's recruiting.
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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True dat.***
Jun 12, 2012, 3:56 PM
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CU Medallion [18158]
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shhhhhhhhh dabo and the acc supporters...
Jun 12, 2012, 3:56 PM
[ in reply to Dear Dabo: ] |
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wont like that fact
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National Champion [7936]
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exactly***
Jun 12, 2012, 3:59 PM
[ in reply to Dear Dabo: ] |
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All-Time Great [88578]
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FSU doesn't need ACC. They are a national program and
Jun 12, 2012, 4:14 PM
[ in reply to Dear Dabo: ] |
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have only been in the ACC 20 years. Clemson, on the contrary, does need the ACC, imo.
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National Champion [7936]
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why would Clemson need the ACC?***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:16 PM
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All-Time Great [88578]
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HIstory, tradition of winning it, more championships than
Jun 12, 2012, 4:24 PM
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anyone, great rivalries, recruiting base...
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National Champion [7936]
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great rivalries? I've been a Tiger fan for 40 yrs and the
Jun 12, 2012, 4:26 PM
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only rival I see in the conference is GT...I don't see anyone else outside of FSU which would be leaving with us as a rival.
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All-Time Great [88578]
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UNC, Wake, State, Duke, UVA, BC, UMD, VT, Miami
Jun 12, 2012, 4:35 PM
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ain't rivals????
They've all beaten too many times to not be. We've beaten them too many times to not be.
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National Champion [7936]
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Rivals are games the stadium is jacked up to see and full
Jun 12, 2012, 4:39 PM
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I would consider Georgia as a kid who grew up in the 80's a greater historic rival to Clemson than most all of the schools on that list.
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Game Changer [1640]
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Re: Rivals are games the stadium is jacked up to see and full
Jun 12, 2012, 5:00 PM
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Only because you grew up in the 80's. Look at all our history. We used to be a cupcake game for UGA because we needed the money. Doubt many old-timers consider UGA a major rival. I agree it could become one if we were in SEC...
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All-Time Great [88578]
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Fan [79]
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Re: UNC, Wake, State, Duke, UVA, BC, UMD, VT, Miami
Jun 12, 2012, 4:51 PM
[ in reply to UNC, Wake, State, Duke, UVA, BC, UMD, VT, Miami ] |
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UNC, VT, UVA, Duke,and Miami- You will now be seeing them once every 3 years or so along with Pitt.
Wake isn't a game that gets the fans excited and neither is Maryland. NC State is ok and BC is a school with only history dating back to 2004.
6 division games
1 Fixed rival
2 rotating cross division games
You have 2 good games you'd leave behind- NC St and GT
You'd play one good opponent like UNC, VT, or Miami
You'd play one meh opponent like Duke, UVA, or Pitt
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Asst Coach [847]
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Re: Dear Dabo:
Jun 12, 2012, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to Dear Dabo: ] |
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For the first time I think since Jimbo took over at FSU. FSU is not in the top 10 in recruiting... maybe the rumors have hurt FSU's recruiting.
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Follower [261]
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 3:56 PM
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What a wank. He really is blind.
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 3:57 PM
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GOOD. Let's hope he's right.
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Commissioner [941]
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Dabo doensn't support going to Big 12?????
Jun 12, 2012, 3:59 PM
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His TNET rating is sure to take a dive. But, then again, we are the people that he is referring to that overhear someone in the bathroom and then post it.
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Heisman Winner [79920]
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SO , WHO'S THE GUY IN THE THIRD CRAPPER?
Jun 12, 2012, 3:59 PM
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He's the one with all the info floating around... or did he just flush?
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Orange Elite [5497]
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That is Munson trying to get a sniff!***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Commissioner [946]
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Game Day Hero [4509]
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Clemson Icon [24064]
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The HC would not be speaking out like this
Jun 12, 2012, 4:00 PM
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unless he already knew what was gonna happen.He wouldn't say It'd be the worst thing for Clemson unless he knew we weren't going.
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Commissioner [941]
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Yeah, Dabo never speaks without thinking it through.
Jun 12, 2012, 4:04 PM
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Sarcasm. I'm just saying.
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Paw Warrior [4848]
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Exactly. He speaks with his emotions...then his brain kicks
Jun 12, 2012, 4:11 PM
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in and he finally shuts up.
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Varsity [104]
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LOL.***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Varsity [230]
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Re: The HC would not be speaking out like this
Jun 12, 2012, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to The HC would not be speaking out like this ] |
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The PRESIDENTS of Mizzou and A&M talked at length about their dedication to the Big 12 and how much better of their programs were in the Big 12 right up until the day they left for the SEC.
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Associate AD [810]
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Re: The HC would not be speaking out like this
Jun 12, 2012, 5:57 PM
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Tuxedo, A&M was on the fence for more than a year. A&M came close to bolting for the SEC when Colorado and Nebraska were jumping out of the conference and it was widely known that Mizzou was hoping for a Big 10 invite during the same time period.
I'm not sure where you got your info but do some research on that. Gene Stallings is on the A&M BOT and given the time he spent at Bama, he was pushing for the SEC the entire time.
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110%er [6577]
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you could not be more wrong.
Jun 12, 2012, 4:13 PM
[ in reply to The HC would not be speaking out like this ] |
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he's just the head coach. there are people more important above him when it comes to this matter. THEY would be the ones coming out and really shutting the door. But, they haven't.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Re: you could not be more wrong.
Jun 12, 2012, 5:01 PM
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And Dabo talks to them a lot more than you do
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110%er [7834]
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Varsity [230]
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The aggie AD & all of the coaches were against the SEC move
Jun 12, 2012, 4:05 PM
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.....and Texas A&M moved.
Folks, after the playoff format is announced June 26th in DC, college football is going to have an earthquake. Things will change like never before.....and part of that will be Clemson & FSU joining the Big 12.
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Heisman Winner [79920]
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I think all this talk becomes relevant only AFTER the
Jun 12, 2012, 4:11 PM
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playoff system is in place. If it goes to the "4 best teams" model, there will be no way for anyone to get in without being undefeated unless they are SEC. Whether we are ACC or Big 12, it won't matter if we are one of five 12-1 teams.
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Varsity [230]
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You couldn't be more wrong.....
Jun 12, 2012, 4:13 PM
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......people have already done the analysis on recent history.
A one loss Big 12 team would have made it last year. A one loss Big 12 team would have made it most years. A one loss ACC team doesn't have a prayer.
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CU Guru [1895]
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In your "analysis" how many one loss ACC teams were there?
Jun 12, 2012, 4:16 PM
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It doesn't matter what conference you're in if you don't win.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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A 1 loss VT team would have been in it last year
Jun 12, 2012, 4:17 PM
[ in reply to You couldn't be more wrong..... ] |
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so that perception is wrong as well.
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Fan [79]
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Nope. LSU, Bama, OSU, Stanford
Jun 12, 2012, 4:22 PM
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All 1 loss.
All higher SOS.
All much more likely than a 1 loss VT.
SOS ranks on Sagarin-
LSU- 7
Bama- 15
OSU- 3
Stanford- 36
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VT- 59
Maybe they might sneak in but that is hard to see happening. OSU, Stanford, Bama, and LSU all coming off wins vs bowl teams like OU, Cal, Auburn, and Arkansas.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Nope...VT was 5 going into the next to last
Jun 12, 2012, 4:32 PM
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LSU, Arkansas, Alabama and Ok State were above them. When they lost to us they fell to 11. Arkansas obviously lost to LSU. Stanford was significantly behind them at that point. Had VT won the ACC against us their SOS was going to increase and only stretch the lead over Stanford.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/bcs/_/week/13
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Fan [79]
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SOS figure quoted includes Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 4:45 PM
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VT might have snuck in over Stanford but the SOS makes it at best an uphill climb. It would depend on how much SOS factors in and how much polls do. Polls would favor VT, SOS favors the other 4.
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Varsity [230]
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Varsity [219]
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Re: Wrong
Jun 12, 2012, 4:33 PM
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If Va Tech had beaten us in the ACC Championship game then their one loss would have been to a team that they then beat later in the season in a rematch. There is no way they wouldn't have gotten in ahead of an Okie State team that didn't play in a conference championship game.
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Varsity [230]
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Re: Wrong
Jun 12, 2012, 4:57 PM
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#1 VaTech didn't win its conference title game so that is a silly point
#2 Okie State's strength of schedule was #3. They played the 3rd hardest schedule in the ****ing country and had 1 loss. They would have had no problem staying ahead of VaTech (who was 59th in strength of schedule).
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt11.htm
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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#### people you just can't make facts up
Jun 12, 2012, 4:34 PM
[ in reply to Wrong ] |
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The BCS going into the last weekend was LSU, Arkansas, Alabama, Ok State and VT.
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Fan [79]
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BCS formula may not be the same as the 4 team playoff
Jun 12, 2012, 5:01 PM
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Likely higher emphasis on SOS and less on polls would sink VT's bid.
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Clemson Icon [24064]
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Varsity [104]
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That was for a national championship..not a 4 team playoff***
Jun 12, 2012, 5:49 PM
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Associate AD [1079]
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 4:05 PM
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If this is such a major issue and is actually causing long-term damage to the university, then he should have made sure that the appropriate parties (Barker, TDP, BOT) publicly addressed them in a clear and direct manner. They did exactly the opposite. If they said anything at all, it was of the nature of doing what is in the interest of the school, nothing clearly supportive of the conference.
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Commissioner [946]
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 4:12 PM
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Agreed! Let them deal with this issue and you worry about the football team and not giving up 70 pts in a bowl game and losing to the coots yet again.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 4:28 PM
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I agree, and don't understand why it is so hard for Dabo to just not comment about this.
Literally all he had to say is that all the reports and Big 12 talk were from bloggers, and there is nothing to them. With that, he doesn't care, because his job is to have the team ready for Sept 1st against Auburn, defending our ACC Title, and taking back the State Championship. That is what he is focused on at this time, not all this hypothetical crap......
SERIOUSLY DABO, WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THIS????
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Orange Immortal [65564]
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And this is where it gets sticky - and why somebody needs
Jun 12, 2012, 4:19 PM
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clear the air as soon as possible. Our BOT and Prez and TDP all know if we are considering a move to the Big 12. If we are, Dabo needs to be in the loop to prevent this kind of thing. If we are not, they need to issue a statement to that effect - making it clear that we are absolutely not leaving the ACC; not the open-ended, wishy-washy "denial" they gave previously.
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CU Medallion [18158]
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exactly..***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:20 PM
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CU Guru [1895]
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: And this is where it gets sticky - and why somebody needs
Jun 12, 2012, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to And this is where it gets sticky - and why somebody needs ] |
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The problem is we can't make it clear we aren't leaving the ACC until we know exactly where FSU stands.
Clemson can't afford to be left behind in an FSU-less ACC. This is why we are leaving all of our options on the table. This is also why Dabo just needs to shut the hell up, at least for the rest of the summer!!!!!
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Asst Coach [804]
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Wishy washy may be a bargaining tool for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to And this is where it gets sticky - and why somebody needs ] |
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with the ACC with some of their problems with the new contract and scheduling.
And I am not sure Dabo is speaking out of turn.
I for one will believe what he says. He has shown he is terrific with recruiting and if he says this talk is hurting, I believe him. No matter what you think of the man, I can not think of a time when he has lied to us.
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Orange Immortal [65564]
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I do believe him. If his superiors are considering a
Jun 12, 2012, 10:16 PM
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move to the Big 12, they probably have not discussed it with him up until now. I'm not saying we are jumping, but if we are considering it, he certainly could not discuss it with or even hint at it to recruits, and any knowledge of it would put him in a position of having to lie or tap-dance around the truth when talking to recruits who ask about it.
Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume he's not been in the loop.
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Legend [6777]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Dabo Never Mentioned or Eluded to a move to the SEC
Jun 12, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Keep that in mind...........
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All-Time Great [88578]
TigerPulse: 100%
63
Posts: 81631
Joined: 1999
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Re: Dabo Never Mentioned or Eluded to a move to the SEC
Jun 12, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Or the PAC 12.
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National Champion [7936]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 13712
Joined: 2002
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or Conf USA***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:40 PM
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Associate AD [810]
TigerPulse: 57%
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Orange Blooded [2507]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
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Don't really see a problem. Dabo gave his personal thoughts
Jun 12, 2012, 4:44 PM
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But said more then once that if the bosses said they are playing in the Big 12, in so many words, then he'll do what he must to compete and win there. Him saying that many times shows that while he would perfer to remain in the ACC, as all of us would as long as we won't get left out of the NC, he would do what he must and continue to coach if we make the move to the Big 12.
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Rock Defender [56]
TigerPulse: 57%
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Finally! A voice of reason. Go Dabo!***
Jun 12, 2012, 4:50 PM
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Game Changer [1640]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I hate to use reason on Tigernet, but...
Jun 12, 2012, 4:58 PM
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Any of you ever think, for whatever reason, Dabo was told what to say by the BOT?
Remember, he said he would do whatever his bosses said...I realize for some on this board, reason does not exist, only what they want (or think they want).
Also, what would you do if neither the Big 12 or the SEC wants Clemson? That is a possibility.
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Rock Defender [56]
TigerPulse: 57%
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Yes. But, no doubt Dabo has the best interest of Clemson...
Jun 12, 2012, 5:58 PM
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in mind. If Dabo has to re-recruit people just because bloggers are speculating of what may or may not happen, it's detrimental to the program.
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All-Pro [783]
TigerPulse: 99%
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TNET needs to quit running stories with huge Big 12 picture
Jun 12, 2012, 5:44 PM
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Of course it hurts recruting!
The one man with the most insight to the Clemson football team has spoken, and people on here still want to talk about how we need to/might move. COME ON.
I say thank you Dabo for clearing this up, and let's move on. Next on the agenda, how to beat Auburn in Atlanta!
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CU Guru [1519]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: TNET needs to quit running stories with huge Big 12 picture
Jun 12, 2012, 5:48 PM
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Yes, the distraction has hurt recruiting. Auburn should be our focus.
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Varsity [247]
TigerPulse: 60%
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 5:44 PM
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Is this just an excuse for poor recruiting this year?
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Trainer [32]
TigerPulse: 44%
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poor recruiting???
Jun 13, 2012, 10:20 AM
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its june
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Varsity [247]
TigerPulse: 60%
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Re: poor recruiting???
Jun 13, 2012, 11:06 AM
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The top 10 ranked recruiting schools have a total of 92 4 star recruits ----we have 1.
So I guess other schools don't think it is too early to recruit.
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Associate AD [810]
TigerPulse: 57%
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Dabo has obviously not spoken with York.
Jun 12, 2012, 6:05 PM
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or The Dude.
Dabo's T-net pulse is sure to suffer.
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Fan [51]
TigerPulse: 56%
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 12, 2012, 7:45 PM
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Follow the money:
Coach is right.
A move to the Big 12 is a bad idea.
Follow the money... It all goes to Austin.
The Longhorns have their own TV Network. They don't play well with others. This is why Texas A&M left. Imagine if our Tigers and the Gamecocks did not play. One of the great college rivalries ends year after next. This is what has happened in Texas...all because of the network and the flow of dollars.
It is not the Big 12. It is the Big One and eleven dwarfs. Anyone else joining just becomes a smaller dwarf.
Just win.
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Orange Phenom [14623]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Posts: 13566
Joined: 2001
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Sounds like he talked too much.***
Jun 12, 2012, 8:10 PM
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Orange Beast [6228]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Anyone who thinks that was JUST Dabo's opinion.....
Jun 12, 2012, 9:01 PM
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....is clueless. He isn't going to go that deep into an "opinion" on this topic without the full blessing and knowledge of his many bosses (which he made sure he mentioned several times as his bosses.) I'd say it's a safe bet that Dabo's smarter and more calculated than most t-netters are capable of ever being...present company included.
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Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: a coot working for coot 560theteam***
Jun 12, 2012, 9:04 PM
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Orange Beast [6228]
TigerPulse: 100%
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right... a coot IPTAY member. Hmm... that's a good one.***
Jun 12, 2012, 10:07 PM
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Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 73%
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RU does work for 560 The Team but anyone on here knows...
Jun 12, 2012, 10:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: a coot working for coot 560theteam*** ] |
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...he bleeds orange. Take your 49% Pulse score and go play in the street.
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CU Guru [1899]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: RU does work for 560 The Team but anyone on here knows...
Jun 13, 2012, 12:23 AM
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Now 46%.
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Game Changer [1723]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Anyone who thinks that was JUST Dabo's opinion.....
Jun 12, 2012, 9:20 PM
[ in reply to Anyone who thinks that was JUST Dabo's opinion..... ] |
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I'm not saying Clemson didn't look into the Big 12, but the move is orchestrated. I'm positive of that. Right before the playoff meetings... Clemson just assured the ACC of being a strong voice. If Swofford somehow mucks it up then the ACC has a problem, but basically this gave Swofford leverage to go into those meetings as a viable 5th conference. Best PR move of the summer by ACC and Clemson.
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Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 73%
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Recruit [93]
TigerPulse: 87%
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Dabo: I agree
Jun 12, 2012, 10:30 PM
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I like what he says and I like the way he says it. He and the AD have more info than anyone. I trust them to do their jobs. It is the people on these boards who speculate without basis that are harming our recruiting and our program.
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Head Coach [787]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Dabo: I agree
Jun 12, 2012, 10:37 PM
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NO, the ### whippings by WV and SC are what has hurt our recruiting.
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National Champion [7675]
TigerPulse: 95%
42
Posts: 13207
Joined: 1999
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Re: Dabo: I agree
Jun 13, 2012, 12:25 AM
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yes indeedy!
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Recruit [93]
TigerPulse: 87%
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Re: Dabo Never Mentioned or Eluded to a move to the SEC
Jun 13, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Allude. Allude. Not elude. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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Orange Blooded [3233]
TigerPulse: 98%
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Translation: I just won the ACCCG. Why would I leave?
Jun 13, 2012, 12:43 AM
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Also heard a hint of thr old Bowden "parity" comment in there. Why would Dabo want to leave a weak ACC to play in what's been the best overall conference the last two years?
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Fan [96]
TigerPulse: 83%
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 13, 2012, 11:15 AM
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I like Dabo and have always agreed with his policies and defended him when any coot would start trash talking him. but in my opinion I wonder if he is scared to play in the big 12?
Short term: staying in ACC will help recruiting.
Long Term: staying in ACC will kill our recruiting.
But in the end no matter what conference we are in I will still be pulling for my Clemson Tigers!
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Head Coach [761]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 13, 2012, 11:18 AM
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There's always Plan B....get Swofford fired.
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Standout [239]
TigerPulse: 33%
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Re: Front Page Story: Swinney says he thinks move to Big 12 won't happen, isn't beneficial for Clemson
Jun 13, 2012, 9:40 PM
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Dabo has gotta come back down to reality. They don't care about our fanbase, our tradition, or any of that other crap Dabo spouted off about. If you aren't finishing in the top 4 or 5 you won't be playing for a national title. That's fact
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