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Ultimate Tiger [33640]
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$36.21
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May 19, 2025, 12:51 AM
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TRILLION!!!
...that's your current National Debt.
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 12:54 AM
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I am pretty sure I can't come up with that.
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Ultimate Tiger [33640]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 12:58 AM
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The USA can't either.
Why do we even keep track anymore?
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 1:00 AM
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Maybe if lowered the taxes on the wealthy to to nothing that would help cover it.
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Ultimate Tiger [33640]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 1:07 AM
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We should just abolish taxes for everyone! Who needs them when we can just keep raising the debt limit to infinity?
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 1:23 AM
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True. Plus there will be so much trickle down money that our heads will spin.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108946]
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They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
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May 19, 2025, 4:38 AM
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Poorly covered that history books never mentioned these events. On purpose. I'm a history major and I never knew FDR confiscated all gold and set a standard dollar value for it. Never taught about Nixon leaving that gold standard of FDR or why. At best these were footnotes in a history book. If that.
Could do a federal crypto coin and tie that into gold? Who knows. But we're at one of those 1933/1971 inflection points. We've been broke twice and both times they changed the money. Tying it to gold, then breaking it from gold. Nixon wanted to break off gold and make our economy the reserve for the dollar, giving birth to the debt craze.
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Playmaker [368]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
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May 19, 2025, 7:45 AM
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Gotta remember at least for going off the gold standard we hit a period our economic dominance decline after Europe and Japan rebuilt after WW2.
Among others.
So to keep the illusion of a vast middle class it had to be financed. My bet we are resetting to a historical norm. Very small wealthy class, small middle class, large working poor class and then the bottom of the rung.
Right now today many many people think they are middle class but really are not.
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110%er [3913]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
May 19, 2025, 8:00 AM
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I’m part of the working poor class
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
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May 19, 2025, 10:00 AM
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United States poor
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Oculus Spirit [40120]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
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May 19, 2025, 10:02 AM
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Exactly. New car, iPhone, Netflix, stainless appliances poor.
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
May 19, 2025, 10:11 AM
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Big deal. Next thing you will be explaining how set they are to have a refrigerator. 60% of Americans are paycheck to paycheck. They are projecting now that only 20% of Americans that are the age of 50 will be able to retire one day.
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
May 19, 2025, 12:57 PM
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Who cares about the rest of the world? These people equate being poor by being close to homeless if things go bad for a month or two. They wonder what happened when they get old. Their children skip meals. They don't have gas for their cars if they have a car at all. The list goes on and on. They don't go to the dentist. They can afford much of the basics. Are we the richest country in the world? Why is that so common? We don't need to compare ourselves with Ethiopia. Why don't we just compare ourselves with Denmark?
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
May 19, 2025, 2:12 PM
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That's why I said US poor.
People who have a place to live, a car, an I phone, and food (which is the vast majority of people) are not poor.
There are some poor people like you describe in the US, but certainly not a large portion of the population.
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: They will reset the money. It's happened twice and both times it was so
May 19, 2025, 2:18 PM
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And, the median household income in Denmark is about $43,000 USD per year, and the median household income in the US is about $80,000 per year.
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108946]
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Nothing. It stays as it is, probably drops though.
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May 19, 2025, 9:46 AM
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But there are benefits to crypto. You can set a fixed number of bitcoin, or FedCoins, and tie that to gold or the dollar. Much like stock, there can be splits in the total universe of FedCoins. Start off with say 1 billion valued at $10,000 each. When the value climbs too high, you can split the stock/coins, and have 2 billion worth half as much. Mexico used to do this with the peso, and it resets the currency, kind of like tying it to gold, or something else, but it's a different, more functional level of control. Plus, you don't have to split it, you can just add some amount to the universe of coins.
They've kicked around minting some $1 trillion coins, and then using those to pay down the debt.
There are all kinds of chicanery and shenanigans that can be utilized. But end of the day, it's a very old game. If the economy tanks, they will reset the currency.
Remember, if you wanted to pay down our national deficit in gold, at even inflated current market prices, there is not enough gold on the planet, mined, AND still in the ground, to pay it all down. There is only $20T of gold on Earth, including what has been mined AND what's in the ground in reserves. Gold is pushing up in value though, and around $5K, then the gold value surpasses our debt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEVOhEtXINk
With the introduction of Trump to office, and his policies, given our past abuse of debt, we are teetering on a dollar crisis, and this is something no one really comprehends, because it's been thought, and told, to be impossible. It isn't.
Lastly, it doesn't matter how much gold is in Ft. Knox. It won't be enough. Might as well be zero. Could be packed. Doesn't matter, it's only going to be a small fraction of our debt, at best.
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Clemson Icon [27554]
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Re: Nothing. It stays as it is, probably drops though.
May 19, 2025, 9:59 AM
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Plus they can monitor what people spend and increase tax revenue.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108946]
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Many benefits to going crypto.
May 19, 2025, 10:09 AM
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Also many dangers, given the electronic nature of all transactions.
I have a feeling we will have a very hard next few years, then the next President will come in and do something about it. Just a hunch. Trump doesn't think macro ANYTHING.
But this is why I say it is absolutely dangerous to think gold is a safe haven for a falling dollar. Trump can do just what FDR did in 1933, and confiscate it all, tie it all to the dollar, and set a fixed price. If you have large gold holdings, I'd make sure it was housed somewhere NOT in the US, and beyond our ability to confiscate it. Better off with crypto, maybe real estate, maybe something else.
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Ultimate Tiger [34896]
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If a debt collector takes that over, who would they call and annoy first?***
May 19, 2025, 3:51 AM
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 6:04 AM
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I remember when it was half that during the Obama years and the deficit was less than 1T. It's a good thing we have elected a "business man" twice since then, eh? 😆
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 6:09 AM
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Obama had multiple trillion dollar deficits
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 7:22 AM
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What was it the day he left office?
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 7:27 AM
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Around .6 trillion, almost doubling the national debt while in office. Not sure if Obama is the example you want to use when comparing administrations and government spending.
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 7:37 AM
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Obama added 7.6 over 8 years.
"The Businessman" added 7.8 over 4 years.
Facts Baw. My OP is correct that the deficit has doubled since Obama left office despite the fact that "The Businessman" has been elected twice. It seems "The Businessman " really sucks at what he is suppose to excel at, eh? 😆
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 7:46 AM
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Obama had multiple trillion dollar deficits and almost doubled the national debt. No reasonable person would use Obama as an example of a President that led fiscal responsibility. So, I understand why you would use him as an example.
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 8:23 AM
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Nice strawman. Never said Obama was great. Just LOLing at how much "The Businessman" really sucks at what he is suppose to excel at since his results are twice as bad at what Obama did. 😆
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 8:32 AM
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You literally used Obama as a comparison.
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 8:50 AM
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I guess you can say I compared Obama to "The Businessman". How is that scorecard currently looking? 😆
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: $36.21
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May 19, 2025, 6:33 AM
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The debt/GDP ratio should be the biggest concern of any politician in DC right now, and no one is really talking about it. I don't think most people can grasp the upheaval that would be caused by a US default.
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Paw Master [16731]
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Which is why Im pro-DOGE. Many on this site have a fatalistic sophistication
May 19, 2025, 11:03 AM
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on this topic. Many people write beautifully about the complex issues around balancing the budget and chipping away at the debt. Can’t be done. Ship has sailed. New currencies, etc. all very heady stuff. I’m not that smart. I am, however, an optimist. Slash budgets everywhere. Big, gashing budget cuts. The type that make people wail and gnash their teeth. Cut everywhere. Defense, research, entitlements. Everywhere. Then see what we have to do from a tax basis. Balance the budget and chipping away at away at this debt.
But of course today we have Chuck Schumer insinuating that DOGE caused the Mexican ship to crash.
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: Which is why Im pro-DOGE. Many on this site have a fatalistic sophistication
May 19, 2025, 11:27 AM
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I'm definitely pro DOGE in theory, or at least some sort of apperatus in the Executive branch that addresses waste and pushes for cuts, but it needs to be well run and stay within its legal boundaries. I think Trump has had some good basic ideas - he's just a bad leader when it comes to execution.
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Dynasty Maker [3265]
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"Biggest" concern? No. It is a concern, but not the biggest by a long shot...
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May 19, 2025, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: $36.21 ] |
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By far the biggest concern is the attacks from Trump's MAGA-party on the Bill of Rights and the rule of law.
After that is probably the tariffs & what that will do to our economy and standing in the world.
Somewhere a bit down the list comes the debt/deficit stuff.
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Playmaker [360]
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gosmitty.....i Like Your List
May 19, 2025, 6:42 PM
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It's a little off topic, but I'd add inequality. It is insanity and incompatible with democracy to allow individuals to amass fortunes in the hundreds of billions of dollars. All Citizens United did was was ensure that all instead of just most of our pols are bought and paid for. There was a reason that the top marginal tax rate for ta generation after WWII was 90+%.
Message was edited by: fitch®
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Dynasty Maker [3265]
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Inequality is an issue....
May 19, 2025, 7:30 PM
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I don't mind the US having more inequality than most developed nations, because we also have a larger pie to split up. Our economy is the envy of the world.
I do think we should shore up our healthcare system so that everyone is covered and people don't go bankrupt because of medical bills.
Money in politics is certainly worse today than it was pre-Citizens United. Something like Elon's bankrolling of Trump's campaign couldn't have happened like it did in 2024, pre-CU.
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: gosmitty.....i Like Your List
May 19, 2025, 7:31 PM
[ in reply to gosmitty.....i Like Your List ] |
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The government claiming 90 percent of any portion of someone's income is criminal.
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Dynasty Maker [3265]
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In reality, it never did...
May 19, 2025, 7:44 PM
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The 90% highest marginal tax rate was paired with oodles of deductions, so that the richest 1% were paying a % much lower than that, something like 42%. Prior to Trump's tax cuts in 2017, the richest 1% were paying around 36%, and that % varied between 30 and 40% over decades when the US maintained a dominance economically on the world stage.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/
Today, that top 1% pays something in the mid to upper 20's on average....
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Clemson Conqueror [11405]
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I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about that. Years ago, we were going to
May 19, 2025, 7:44 AM
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be doomed when it reached $10, but we weren't doomed. Maybe the deficit is not such a big deal?
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Ultimate Tiger [33401]
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Re: I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about that. Years ago, we were going to
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May 19, 2025, 7:58 AM
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If the GDP is $50 trillion, then a $36 trillion national debt is no big deal. The GDP is around $29 trillion. So we're either going to have to have some major growth, or we are going to have to have some painful spending cuts. Or, we can try to inflate our way out of it.
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Orange Elite [5330]
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Re: I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about that. Years ago, we were going to
May 19, 2025, 8:24 AM
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The spending cuts that never happen? 😆
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108946]
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Don't think in terms of the deficit, debt, markets, etc.
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May 19, 2025, 8:04 AM
[ in reply to I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about that. Years ago, we were going to ] |
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Don't think In terms of GDP or inflation or deflation. Don't think in terms of income. One thing ties this all together. The dollar. It's what everything is measured by. When everything goes to crap, you simply alter the common denominator. They will change or alter the money. It's what FDR saw and did. It's what Nixon saw and did. Not sure Trump is bright enough to see it much less do anything about it.
Treasuries are tanking. The dollar is in decline. This is the time you tie it back to gold or something.
Irony is there is not enough gold on Earth ever mined, or in reserves in the ground, not enough period to cover our national debt at current market prices.
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Dynasty Maker [3265]
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It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be....
May 19, 2025, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to I'm not sure why nobody seems to care about that. Years ago, we were going to ] |
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Any country that has its own central bank, and can borrow in its own currency, isn't as likely to have a run-on-the-bank scenario. And there's no bright line where debt becomes existential. We can withstand much higher debt/gdp than even we have today.
Here's where we are currently, at about 97% currently. Whenever we have a recession, government borrows, which is good from a Keynesian perspective. In the bad times, government needs to be able to borrow. In the good times, government needs to tighten its belt (which it's done some, but not nearly enough).
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYGFGDQ188S
I do think we should do some deficit/debt reduction. The economy came out of the pandemic in good shape, and we can withstand austerity. Congress should put forth tax increases and spending cuts to lower the trajectory of debt/gdp. I would maybe aim to get it under 60% of gdp.
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Ring of Honor [22391]
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No worries Mike Johnson has got this! One Big Bu!!$hit Bill can up!***
May 19, 2025, 7:55 AM
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Tiger Titan [48920]
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$7.8 trillion of that under Trump's first term, since you're so in love with him***
May 19, 2025, 7:56 AM
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Re: $36.21
May 19, 2025, 8:05 PM
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How much gold has DJT repatriated?
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