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All-In [42197]
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Nancy Mace on NPR this morning
Jan 7, 2021, 8:13 AM
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Rep. Nancy Mace, who is now my Congressional rep and who defeated incumbent Democrat Joe Cunningham while running on a complete support of Trump platform (well, until she flip-flopped on offshore drilling), was interviewed on NPR today.
She said she flew her kids up with her on Sunday to get sworn in, but sent them back Monday because of the violent rhetoric she was hearing out of the Trump rally people around DC. Mace, despite her Trump support, has stated clearly that Biden won the election and that she would not oppose the Electoral College confirmation. This week, she received death threats and was accosted by a Trumpie on the street at one point.
Even she, someone who continued to support Trump all the way to the election, has realized Trumpism is a disease. Those people in the Capitol yesterday were the worst of our American society.
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Heisman Winner [119749]
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The authorities have said that a group broke away from the
Jan 7, 2021, 8:16 AM
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Larger group of demonstrators to rush the capitol. As with most crowds, the majority were peaceful.
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All-In [42197]
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Give me a list of...
Jan 7, 2021, 8:18 AM
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The ones who crossed the barricades and climbed the walls, whether they entered the Capitol or not, who did not break the law.
Thanks. I'll wait.
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Lot o points [155973]
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This is where I struggle with P&R perceptions and outrage.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:28 AM
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I get the diff between the US Capitol and a private neighborhood, but I still don't understand how you and others on here can reconcile excusing the behaviors of the St Louis protestors who trespassed and broke into a private gated neighborhood while berating those two armed people a couple months ago, while acting like the people who trespassed on the capitol are the worst terrorists since Lockerbie and applauding the cop who shot an unarmed woman.
I think both scenarios are inexcusable, with blame landing squarely on those who thought their right to protest trumped all other laws. For those who don't, what's the mental demarcation point where infringing on others' property rights and destruction of property in the name of protest go from understandable and deserving of sympathy to despicable?
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All-In [42197]
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Here's the difference.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:36 AM
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The St. Louis people were an unorganized group of roaming clowns, and they never once posed a threat to the couple we referred to. They weren't going to that couples' house. Had they trespassed on their property and posed a threat, I would have supported them opening fire.
What happened yesterday was an organized mob, encouraged by the president, who wasn't trying to trespass in someone's neighborhood. They were trying to seize Congress by force and overturn an election, and they invaded one of our most sacred government buildings to do it. Had they gone unchecked, we likely would have been looking at either hostage situations or executions.
These two incidents aren't comparable. And that woman was trying to break into the House chambers--she had already committed multiple felonies at that point and refused to obey. Let me throw it around: How can y'all defend her, yet are so quick to praise the likes of Rittenhouse or criticize unarmed black men shot by cops.
Finally, look back on history when angry mobs overtake a major government building with revolution on the brain. You do know what usually happens in those cases, right?
I'll hang up and listen.
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All-TigerNet [11640]
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The people who invaded the Capitol...
Jan 7, 2021, 8:41 AM
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Deserve the same fate as all the 'protestors' who attacked and tried to overrun Federal buildings in other cities....
Shoot them all.
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Lot o points [155973]
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"ya'll"?
Jan 7, 2021, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Here's the difference. ] |
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I literally just said all blame for her getting shot falls on her shoulders and those trespassing with her. Just like all blame for the STL people getting guns pointed at them falls on the shoulders of those who thought breaking down a gate and entering a private community was their right.
I'm congruent here in my beliefs and denunciations. You're saying that the level of organization of said trespassers and who organized said protest makes the difference in whether property laws are to be followed.
This loosy goosy application of societal norms and standards is a big part of why we are where we are today. People don't get berated or praised for the same illegal action just because I'm sympathetic or antagonistic to their cause.
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All-In [42197]
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Apologies for the all inclusive y'all.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:12 AM
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But again, they aren't the same thing. The trespassers over the summer weren't on their property. Had they gone on their property, then yes, I firmly would have sided with the homeowners.
And I think we can all agree the locale and intent of yesterday's incident makes quite a difference.
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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"Berating" those two armed people?
Jan 7, 2021, 8:37 AM
[ in reply to This is where I struggle with P&R perceptions and outrage. ] |
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That crowd wouldn't have even known they existed had they not walked outside and clumsily pointed weapons at passersby with the worst trigger discipline since muskets. There's no accounts of those protesters even entering that couples' yard or driveway. People were roaming the halls of the Senate office yesterday attempting to break down doors to get to Senators.
This was the rhetoric outside the Capitol yesterday before this went down. I don't think we're talking about the same things.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Point being, property rights and laws matter or they don't.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:43 AM
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If anyone on here has given a pass to other recent protesters who trespassed and destroyed private property because they were sympathetic to their cause, it's ringing a little hollow to see the hand-wringing over the same actions by a group they disagree with.
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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No, there's a huge difference here, as Cata pointed out.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:49 AM
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Breaking the windows of an unoccupied Foot Locker with the intent to steal shoes is detestable, but the worst case net result is damage and stolen property. The Capitol building was full of Congresspeople and staff, about half of whom were undoubtedly targets of the mob who wouldn't be able to recognize 90% of the purportedly "non-targeted" half anyway. So, "property rights" as it pertains to some broken windows and podiums and trashed offices in the Capitol building, is way outside the point here.
And while much of this board is sympathetic toward police reform, I think you'd be hardpressed to find anybody that was on board with rioting and looting under the banner of that cause.
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Lot o points [155973]
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There really isn't, and that's the issue.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:53 AM
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If the perception at large is that laws go out the window if you believe in your cause strongly enough, then it really doesn't matter if it's a footlocker or the White House, because we've established that the ends justify the means.
If you really want to dive into motivations, the case gets worse.
On one side you have people stealing and trying to cause general anarchy, against a large group of highly misinformed people who mistakenly believe they're preserving the Republic.
If that's the distinction you're wanting to make, (I'm not) these people's motives are even purer.
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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One of us is missing something here.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:03 AM
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Why was the Capitol building raided yesterday? What were the raiders doing once inside? They were looking for specific people. And if they found those people, what was the range of scenarios? Hostage situation? Beatings? Executions?
And we're putting this side by side with acts of anarchical property damage? Are you thinking that I'm saying property damage is ok? It's not. And property damage isn't the issue with what happened yesterday, even though a lot of people are going to see the insides of jail cells because of it.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Nope, let's stick to what happened. This execution stuff
Jan 7, 2021, 9:09 AM
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is pure guessing.
I'm saying that if at any point during the BLM/Antifa stuff, when private and federal property was attacked and destroyed, you shrugged your shoulders because you understood and/or sympathized with the protestors, you should direct a portion of your current rage inwardly because yesterday's protesters clearly felt some level of validation and justification from the actions of those groups.
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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Ah, we've gotten to the disconnect.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:18 AM
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You think pinpointing the motive in storming the Capitol was pure guesswork. I don't. I feel like I've seen and heard enough evidence to extrapolate a range of motives and outcomes for forcefully entering a building full of people that he/she vehemently disagrees with, driven by conspiracy rhetoric. You're taking the more measured approach of "now, now...let's see what they actually want before jumping to conclusions."
Reminder: they were going through the hallways, pounding on doors, saying "where are those motherfuckers?!"
Reminder: this was outside the Capitol before it went sideways.
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All-In [42197]
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Hold up...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:22 AM
[ in reply to Nope, let's stick to what happened. This execution stuff ] |
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19B has posted the picture of the noose. They were wearing shirts calling for civil war, and they were yelling for it. They were passing out fliers calling themselves militia and advertising a call to arms. They broke into the Capitol, broke into Congressional offices.
Do you know what's happened throughout history when similar mobs have overtaken a capitol building?
What exactly are we guessing here?
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Lot o points [155973]
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These hill jacks were climbing around the chambers like a
Jan 7, 2021, 9:27 AM
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Bounce house. Do you think they stopped short of killing people because the capitol police were so well organized and highly fortified??? If death was the core goal, they certainly had numbers. Bottom line for me is not enough information.
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All-In [42197]
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And let's pretend...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:32 AM
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Those hill jacks had no police at all, or were able to find Congressmen and women (it appears they were locked down, defended, or evacuated), and there was no word of the National Guard on the way.
If that mob found Nancy Pelosi in her office with no police there, what do you think would have happened?
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Lot o points [155973]
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She could have been drawn and quartered,
Jan 7, 2021, 9:36 AM
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Or she could have been yelled at. I’m grateful that neither of us really know.
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All-In [42197]
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Me too.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:38 AM
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But I've studied enough similar cases throughout history to know what would have happened.
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All-In [42197]
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Dude, I'm sorry...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to There really isn't, and that's the issue. ] |
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But if authorities weren't able to take back control of the Capitol yesterday, we very well may have been watching executions on social media.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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What a joke, they were pulling people out of cars and
Jan 7, 2021, 8:56 AM
[ in reply to No, there's a huge difference here, as Cata pointed out. ] |
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buildings, beating them then destroying their property. Holding people at gun point in many instance, while cops watched. Across multiple cities and states. How much damage occurred in DC yesterday? Maybe $1500 worth? And we're expected to act like this is the end of the world after 10 months of this kind of thing and worse happening elsewhere? Sorry, not happenin'.
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All-In [42197]
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Why are we having to explain the gravity...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:15 AM
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Of the symbolism of the locale and the intent of the rioters? These two incidents aren't comparable. You're trying to compare random opportunistic, destructive, and self-serving fools vs. a mob invading our Capitol in an attempt to throw a coup.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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It shouldn't matter. The law either matters or it doesn't
Jan 7, 2021, 9:27 AM
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I don't care that it happened in DC and scared some politicians. In fact, I'd rather it be that than innocent business owners or civilians. The riots earlier this year were not just a random, opportunistic mob. They had clear political demands, why do we continue with that farce?
By the widely held definition of protests pre November, this was a peaceful demonstration, and if people were uncomfortable that's a good thing. And anything that got destroyed? Well, that's what insurance is for.
I find all of it pretty disgusting, but what's more nauseating than the actual riots/protests/whatever you want to call them, are the people who spent 10 months dismissing riots, only to act like this is the modern day 9/11.
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Heisman Winner [137983]
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No.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:35 AM
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The protesters this summer had clear political demands. Looters ransacking businesses were opportunists taking advantage of a tense situation with thinly-stretched law enforcement, i.e., "opportunists". And I think we can pretty safely say the large majority of those opportunists didn't give a fraction of a shit about whatever protest or cause they were hijacking.
The people breaking into the Capitol building weren't doing so to loot and steal, and they were on the same page and had the same motives as all of the peaceful protesters outside. They just acted on it.
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Lot o points [155973]
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What a strange distinction
Jan 7, 2021, 9:38 AM
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“The criminals this summer were a lot more casual about their lawlessness”.
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All-In [42197]
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Look at what Spoon and others posted below
Jan 7, 2021, 9:45 AM
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The summertime idiots were self-serving opportunists, looking for a chance to steal something or burn some random #### because they finally had a free pass to do something stupid.
The people yesterday had a sinister intent. They talked of executing Congressmen. One person brought restraints to take hostages. This wasn't Random McDipshit who now knows he can smash and grab an HDTV. These were self-proclaimed "patriots" who thought they were setting off a civil war, and they wanted blood of elected officials.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Oh, is that right? Is that why they took a police station?
Jan 7, 2021, 9:53 AM
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Why they were holding people at gun point at checkpoints in Michigan? Assaulting innocent people and burning their businesses? Going through neighborhoods to harass people? Guess what? They did have a free pass to do all of that, and once that genie is out of the bottle, everybody is free to make a wish. You just don't like the people who did this time, but the law either matters or it doesn't.
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All-In [42197]
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Let's get back to this
Jan 7, 2021, 9:56 AM
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Why are you and Obed playing the "whataboutism" here and not addressing the topic at hand?
Every single person in this thread denounced the violent behavior over the summer.
Every single one. Drop the "whataboutism". It doesn't apply here.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Because this kind of reaction is ridiculous. If you were
Jan 7, 2021, 10:02 AM
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going to get super upset about lawlessness and people occupying government buildings, that ship sailed about 8 months ago.
And I don't know that they did denounce it. I vividly recall about 2-3 weeks of many trying to pretend all of those riots were because of white supremacists and Trump supporters. Then we got a kind of lazy, "yeah, they shouldn't do that", while defending the overall movement. I think what we're pointing out, is that you can't have it both ways and get really mad when the other side uses the same playbook.
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All-In [42197]
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I'm afraid not.
Jan 7, 2021, 10:37 AM
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Sorry, the reaction isn't ridiculous, and this is the reaction of the majority of America yesterday. What happened was horrifying on multiple levels when it comes to the stability of our government and nation, and nothing that's ever happened in our lifetime. The outrage is firmly placed in the right place.
And yes, everyone in this thread denounced the violence/destruction back over the summer. Comparing the two isn't necessary. They aren't comparable, and the parties in this discussion don't need to be addressed on it as such.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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If you're going to give one group the benefit of the doubt,
Jan 7, 2021, 9:43 AM
[ in reply to No. ] |
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while excoriating the other, I believe that's called hypocrisy. Like I said, how much damage was done in DC yesterday? Maybe $1500? Compared to the billions done nationwide by one group. Yet, one group is totally given the benefit of the doubt, while the other has nefarious intentions ascribed to the entire group? And you don't see a problem with that? Baffling.
Again, I think both are reprehensible, but the mental gymnastics some of you guys are going through to make yesterday the worst thing evar is well....Pretty much what you accuse Trumpies of being.
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All-In [42197]
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The point of atrocity yesterday wasn't property damage.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:50 AM
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Over the summer, yes, it very much was.
The issue with yesterday goes far beyond the issue of property damage.
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Legend [16263]
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Our POTUS actively encouraged and invited this
Jan 7, 2021, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to If you're going to give one group the benefit of the doubt, ] |
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mob to the nation's capitol, from all over the country, with the clear intent of creating a show of force to try and intimidate members of the GOP to "step up and do the right thing" in regards to yesterday's electoral certification - in essence the last gasp attempt to overthrow the election and save him from having to leave office and power.
Once on site, he organized and staged a rally where select members of his team, including himself, made numbers of inflammatory and combative statements, including of course "America's Mayor" remarks about combat in congress, all cloaked in the auspices of "patriotism." He finished the rally by asking them to march to the capitol building, with him leading the way. He didn't lead them of course - he hopped in his limo and headed back to the WH. It's worth noting here that Trump was certainly aware that this group of followers that he had called for were highly militant in nature - please don't pretend otherwise. These were militia members, Proud Boys, and whatever other number of organized pseudo fascist groups that have clung hard to Trump and Trumpism, along with your regular run-of-the-mill MAGAs.
This agitated mob, upon reaching our Capitol, where every single member of both our House and Senate, including the Vice President, were within, stormed it in violent fashion - an occupied office building with literally every single member of Congress and the VP within. Trying to morally equivocate this target, housing an entire branch of government plus the VP, knowingly conducting constitutional business confirming the election, with anything that was targeted or looted over the summer during those protests, reveals a disconnect with reality and a bias too extreme to likely ever fix.
There may have been a few fringe posters on here rooting on violence over the summer, just as there are a few fringe posters on here now that are okay with yesterday's attack on our Capitol. These fringe elements were wrong then and they're wrong now. However, these actions are wholly separate in form, structure, target, and intent. Yesterday was a forceful attempt to take over an occupied building actively housing the entirety of our national legislative body - which succeeded.
Our POTUS actively invited this group to DC from far and wide, incited them along the way and certainly yesterday leading up, hunkered down in his office to watch it all unfold, and issued wink wink nod nod statements "discouraging" the actions as they continued. His support for this and those who participated continues following. The greatest disappointment I can see for Trump in orchestrating this is that it didn't include groups of counter-protesters and clashes in the street, giving him a better opportunity to go the Insurrection Act route and attack our democracy from that angle.
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All-In [42197]
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So you don't care...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:37 AM
[ in reply to It shouldn't matter. The law either matters or it doesn't ] |
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That a mob of thousands was able to overtake our Capitol building in a coup attempt and an attempt to overturn a legitimate election?
Would you care if it was a mob of Antifa/Biden supporters had Trump actually won the election?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I do care, I think that's what you're missing. I'm just
Jan 7, 2021, 9:50 AM
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applying my disdain across the board, and baffled at the hypocrisy many are showing after 10 months of riots elsewhere. Like, I truly don't understand why this is so bad compared to everything else we've seen. I think it's ######, but I don't know what anyone else expected after the past year? The fact that it happened in DC doesn't really make my give a ##### meter ding any louder.
I know what the real issue is though...It was Trump supporters. People that it's socially OK to be mad at.
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All-In [42197]
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I was just going on these lines.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:53 AM
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I don't care that it happened in DC and scared some politicians. In fact, I'd rather it be that than innocent business owners or civilians.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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To clarify, I don't care whether it happened in DC or
Jan 7, 2021, 9:57 AM
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Nebraska, the location is immaterial to me. The fact that it happened, and is allowed to happen should concern everyone. What I cannot understand, is treating one group more harshly than the other because of ascribed intentions.
That said, I would much rather see the people causing our political problems attacked instead of innocent people and businesses.
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All-In [42197]
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If anything...
Jan 7, 2021, 10:02 AM
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The summer group was treated far harsher when it came to law enforcement response.
I don't want anyone attacked on any level. And a mob breaching a major government institution to attempt a coup will lead to far worse things than property destruction in a city or two.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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They were also far more destructive and violent. How many
Jan 7, 2021, 10:08 AM
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monuments nationwide were they allowed to destroy? How many people assaulted, even killed? It was absolutely not limited to property damage, and you know that. Not only that, they were letting the rioters out of jail, refusing to charge them. The Vice President was promoting a bail fund for them for Perry Noble's sake.
Mob rule was proven to work, and now some of y'all are surprised it's being utilized by the other side? I will never buy that burning innocent peoples businesses is less destructive than occupying a government office building for a few hours, I'm sorry. But again, I don't think either should be tolerated. Unfortunately, that's where we are now, and that genie ain't going back in the bottle.
If you did not call for the mass arrest and prosecution all summer, you can't feign outrage now.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: They were also far more destructive and violent. How many
Jan 7, 2021, 10:38 AM
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If you did not call for the mass arrest and prosecution all summer, you can't feign outrage now.
I did call for the prosecution of those causing destruction and violence over the summer, so I my outrage is well-placed and not feigned.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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OK, I'll concede that you did. Anyone who called for it, and
Jan 7, 2021, 11:30 AM
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was outraged by the rioters being let out of jail with no prosecution has the moral high ground to denounce yesterday. Anyone who didn't, doesn't. And there were plenty of people who mocked those who were outraged.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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You're all over the place.
Jan 7, 2021, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to It shouldn't matter. The law either matters or it doesn't ] |
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You hate cops, but you want law and order. You want law and order, but you don't care if a mob tries to take our government hostage. All crimes are equal and motivations are irrelevant, but liberal violent mobs are worse than conservative violent mobs.
It seems like you haven't thought any of this through.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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No, I'm just reacting to the reality of the situation
Jan 7, 2021, 11:24 AM
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I've long said cops are out of control, they abuse the law. And if you're going to allow lawlessness, expect it to continue happening and don't be surprised when everyone starts acting like the law doesn't matter. We've quite literally watched the escalation. Cops abuse and act above the law... Then BLM and Antifa do the same...Now Trump supporters do the same thing and all of y'all are aghast? Give me a break.
What happened yesterday is no worse than what happened in Portland, Seattle, Louisville, Dallas, Chicago, LA, or any of the other various places that experienced rioting over the past year. To act otherwise is ridiculous.
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All-In [42197]
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But dude...
Jan 7, 2021, 2:37 PM
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You've spent many times on here claiming that extremist right-wing mobs like the one that happened yesterday don't occur, that it's only leftist mobs, that Trump supporters would never do something like this, etc.
And now that it's happened, front and center, you're downplaying it a bit.
Can we mutually agree that fringe, extremist groups are bad and destructive, and they exist on both sides?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I didn't say they'd never do something like this. Quite the
Jan 7, 2021, 2:55 PM
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opposite. I've been saying that boogieman will become a self fulfilling prophecy unless the leftists mobs are dealt with. They weren't, and here we are.
We certainly can, but now they're going mainstream and I'm not sure what can be done about it anymore. It's downhill from here, we've become too tribal.
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110%er [7210]
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You're so far off
Jan 7, 2021, 8:55 AM
[ in reply to Point being, property rights and laws matter or they don't. ] |
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I don't normally talk about the "rioting and looting" because it's an argument designed to distract. Like no #### violence and destruction are bad and I have no problem with them facing up to the consequences. Yesterday, the violence and destruction WAS THE POINT. They came to DC because they got the memo that the election was stolen and they needed to take matters into their own hands.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Am I?
Jan 7, 2021, 8:58 AM
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We're in agreement about the people and the actions yesterday. You're the one attempting to argue why it's no biggie when it's other people in other places.
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110%er [7210]
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Try and finish this sentence.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:04 AM
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Sure the people who broke into the Capitol, planted IEDs, and waved confederate flags were wrong, but that doesn't take away from the fact that ___________. Donald Trump had the election stolen? There was large scale voter fraud and we have lost faith in democracy? Try and come up with an answer that isn't cover for invading the Capitol and interrupting the election certification.
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Lot o points [155973]
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No need, you should have put the period after "wrong".
Jan 7, 2021, 9:11 AM
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I know it's no fun having someone agree with you completely about those people yesterday, while pointing out that your past actions make you a hypocrite at best, and part of the problem at worst, but you'll get through.
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All-In [42197]
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No, we are not.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to "Berating" those two armed people? ] |
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And sorry, Obed, but trying to compare anything from this past summer, especially your example, is disingenuous at best. There aren't even close to comparing.
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Lot o points [155973]
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That's just it, they are.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:14 AM
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I'm pointing out the bias-based blinders you have that are preventing you from seeing the similarities.
I'm not just posting this stuff as some giant gotcha or ego stroke, I'm pointing out that a general return to some GD societal norms and respect for law and order would go a long ways towards quelling the extremists on both sides. If you're silent or indifferent to one but not the other, you're part of the problem.
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All-In [42197]
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The bias blinders are on you, friend.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:18 AM
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Because they have to be when you're equating both incidents on the same plane. In St. Louis, that couple wasn't harmed. Their property wasn't harmed. I would be on the same side as you with the incident if they were attacked or trespassed upon. I also believe those people who broke the gate and trespassed should have been charged for their crimes. You're acting like I defended them; I never did. I mocked the Ken and Karen couple.
You cannot equate an attempt to overthrow our government and overturn an election by a violent mob to this incident.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Taking a consistent position against
Jan 7, 2021, 9:21 AM
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non-peaceful civil disobedience of all stripes is the exact opposite of bias, but ok.
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110%er [7210]
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You're still missing it.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:27 AM
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Everyone here is against violent protests. You're not on some moral high ground because you denounce both sides. You need to quit trying to find comparisons to people who broke into the Capitol with the intent of overturning an election.
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Lot o points [155973]
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When it comes to logical and ethical consistency
Jan 7, 2021, 9:29 AM
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I sort of do have the high ground, but that’s not really the point.
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110%er [7210]
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Is that you Miura?***
Jan 7, 2021, 9:33 AM
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All-In [42197]
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Re: When it comes to logical and ethical consistency
Jan 7, 2021, 9:40 AM
[ in reply to When it comes to logical and ethical consistency ] |
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I'm quite certain you've got it on the ethical level, but in this discussion, not the logical one. You're comparing apples and oranges. These are not comparable events.
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All-In [42197]
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Yeah, I'm trying to remember...
Jan 7, 2021, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to You're still missing it. ] |
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Who here actually praised the looters and violent folks in the summer. I'm drawing a blank.
I do see some folks here who sang the praises of Kyle Rittenhouse now boo hooing over the woman who was shot yesterday.
Those same people would have cheered a BLM guy getting shot if he tried to breach the White House gates in June. Partisan hackery. That's all.
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All-In [42197]
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What consistent position have I lacked?
Jan 7, 2021, 9:29 AM
[ in reply to Taking a consistent position against ] |
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I repeatedly denounced looters, those who were violent, those who committed property crimes, etc., during the summer. I defended the peaceful protesters, many whom were met with far more force and violence from authorities than the rioters yesterday. So what's the problem? What are debating?
My argument is the two episodes are not comparable. Now if this angry band of Trumpies started looting property or burning down businesses or breaking down private gates, then yeah, they'd be right on the same page.
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110%er [7210]
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His position obviously.***
Jan 7, 2021, 9:30 AM
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Because this is a murky business
Jan 7, 2021, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to That's just it, they are. ] |
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I agree that we should have zero tolerance for any destruction of property and violence, even if it starts out as a peaceful march.
The trouble is that there has been ongoing game of subterfuge played to great effect to influence public opinion. Far right extremists have manipulated everyone into believing that we should exclusively pin blame on Antifa for committing the acts when we have documented proof that there were actual Nazis carrying umbrellas who started the fires.
We saw the same thing yesterday. Apologists for this shameful episode tried to claim it was Antifa. I had people try to tell me yesterday that the Viking man was actually an antifa plant! When he is a ####### total Nazi.
So I agree with you about needing to have a hard line about any protest that becomes violent, no matter who is involved.
I'm afraid Nazis are everywhere in this country and they need to be dealt with aggressively. The Antifa need to start taking off their cloaks if they want to avoid being lumped in. We need to know who we are dealing with.
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/07/28/warrant-white-supremacist-instigated-looting-at-george-floyd-protest-in-minneapolis
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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CU Medallion [56106]
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The only time I can excuse illegal behavior is when
Jan 7, 2021, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to This is where I struggle with P&R perceptions and outrage. ] |
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people are challenging unjust laws, Rosa Parks style, or if it's non-violent like buying and smoking weed. I fully support the peaceful protests where people were speaking out against police brutality and advocating accountability and reform. I've never defended rioting, looting, violence, or vandalism.
But this is the problem with whataboutism. It changes the subject and reverses roles so people can be on the attack, where they're more comfortable, rather than be on defense, where they have a terrible hand to play. Instead of talking about what happened yesterday, let's argue about Portland, Oregon in the summer of 2020 and who said what about it. I understand the temptation to point out hypocrisy, but that's just a threadjack.
Lastly, there's a big difference between civil unrest and insurrection. Ransacking a Foot Locker is one thing. Ransacking the office of the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives is on a whole nother level.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: The only time I can excuse illegal behavior is when
Jan 7, 2021, 9:55 AM
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Lastly, there's a big difference between civil unrest and insurrection. Ransacking a Foot Locker is one thing. Ransacking the office of the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives is on a whole nother level.
Right on about the whataboutism (really, guys, c'mon Obed... dismiss that argument). But those lines above... I'm struggling why we're having to explain this.
I mean, I get why T3 or Tigermanac wouldn't get that. But the rest of y'all? C'mon.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Whataboutism is a super lazy hot take on this.
Jan 7, 2021, 3:51 PM
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`It's not even whataboutism, as that would be me diminishing what happened yesterday by referring to other incidents.
I'm not....read my lips, Murcielago and Catahoula and 19B. What happened yesterday was terrible and disgraceful and should never have happened. It also happened in part because these idiots saw the traction gained and permission afforded to those using similar mob tactics earlier last year.
So no, it's not whataboutism....I'm saying that if someone, and there were many on here doing it, gave a "yeah but" to the crap earlier in this year, their attitudes directly contributed to what happened yesterday. Man up and own it.
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All-In [42197]
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Okay, so...
Jan 7, 2021, 4:02 PM
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If the actions from earlier this year led to what happened yesterday, then exactly how? Because it can't be "permission afforded to those using similar mob tactics." If anything, the police yesterday were far more accommodating and, in some cases, complicit. With the exception of the one who dropped the woman (crank up the Filter today, sir).
So how exactly did it lead to that? You think this mob looked back at the summer events and said, "Well, this is how it's done."?
Or is far more likely that they felt this was their last chance to stop Biden's win while also getting that civil war they so desperately craved, and they were further emboldened by the man they worshipped himself? That seems far more likely.
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Lot o points [155973]
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let's flip it.
Jan 7, 2021, 4:09 PM
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You tell me how the people yesterday could possibly have seen what happened and not said two can play at that game.
If you listen to talk radio for five minutes you'll hear a disgruntled caller bemoaning how "nice" the right always is and wishing they'd match leftist tactics once in a while. I'm not approving of the sentiment, but I'm cognizant enough to acknowledge it. We're in a civil disobedience contest now between the left and right extremes, and I hope you don't think that yesterday is where it ends absent some real changes in accepted norms on what ends justify which means.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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So you're saying that were it not for the BLM riots
Jan 7, 2021, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to Whataboutism is a super lazy hot take on this. ] |
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yesterday wouldn't have happened? Because I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with ya. In fact the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Those people yesterday truly believe the election was stolen from Donald Trump and democracy is being subverted. They think they're a part of a revolution to save America. And I'd bet money that the last thing they'd want to be compared to is Antifa.
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Lot o points [155973]
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Are you really saying they have to share ideologies to
Jan 7, 2021, 4:54 PM
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share tactics? Idiocy inspires idiocy.
I obviously can't say that one would or wouldn't have happened without the other, but I'd put a good bit of money on the protests staying outside the Capitol building yesterday if BLM and antifa hadn't happened.
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Heisman Winner [119749]
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I will when you get a list of the Antifa terrorists....***
Jan 7, 2021, 8:42 AM
[ in reply to Give me a list of... ] |
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All-In [42197]
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From?***
Jan 7, 2021, 9:42 AM
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All-In [47874]
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Yeah, that's a real reasonable request.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:49 AM
[ in reply to Give me a list of... ] |
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I'm sure that is all public information now that it is not even 24 hours later.
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All-In [42197]
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It's easy.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:43 AM
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Show me pictures and videos of all the people who broke through the barricades, outside and inside the building, and point out the ones who didn't break the law.
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All-In [47750]
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All-In [42197]
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So you can't do it.***
Jan 7, 2021, 9:43 AM
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All-TigerNet [11640]
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LOL.
Jan 7, 2021, 8:37 AM
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The extreme left and extreme right are one in the same.
Laying blame to one side while ignoring your side is the problem.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: LOL.
Jan 7, 2021, 9:19 AM
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The extreme left and extreme right are one in the same.
Laying blame to one side while ignoring your side is the problem.
I've typed those exact same words multiple times on this board. So why are you stating them to me now?
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