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All-TigerNet [5719]
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Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
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Apr 7, 2025, 10:21 AM
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Or do you think we should outsource manufacturing and rely on an economy based on software, services, and generating IP?
I think it’s a fundamental question in considering the tariffs - what do you think?
I believe that a country is only as strong as the food and hardware it can produce.
What good is software if you can’t product the chips?
What good is your IP, if China or Vietnam just steals it?
How defensible is our nation if all basic materials that are ultimately needed to produce missles, planes, drones, tanks and ships are produced in communist countries?
That an American company can make a quick buck by outsourcing the means of production to our enemies without cost or penalty is strategic blunder that’s been years in the making and was proliferated by republicans and democrats alike.
I think the tariffs are extreme but I also think that they are the basis for the extreme leverage required to negotiate ourselves out of the situation we find our country in today. And this isn’t a Biden/Trump thing. It’s years and years of big international companies calling themselves “American Companies” trying to make a quick buck on the American people.
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Tiger Titan [48932]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
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Apr 7, 2025, 10:25 AM
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I think the tariffs are extreme but I also think that they are the basis for the extreme leverage required to negotiate ourselves out of the situation we find our country in today. And this isn’t a Biden/Trump thing. It’s years and years of big international companies calling themselves “American Companies” trying to make a quick buck on the American people.
Wrecking our economy and our alliances overnight is not the way to go about this problem.
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All-TigerNet [5719]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
Apr 7, 2025, 10:39 AM
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Fair enough.
How would you approach the problem?
Do you think if we just asked them nicely, that other countries would remove their tariffs and stop manipulating their currency?
Do you think they would voluntarily surrender their trade surpluses with the US because of silver tongued diplomacy?
Or do you have any other ideas? How would you create the necessary leverage to negotiate more favorable trade deals?
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Tiger Titan [48932]
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When you have the strongest economy in the history of the world
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Apr 7, 2025, 10:47 AM
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There's no need to #### around with it. ESPECIALLY having an authoritarian big government meddle in the free market, which is a very leftist move BTW. Let the market play.
But if you MUST institute tariffs (still a bad idea in the long run) to boost homegrown manufacturing, you do them gradually and with lots of advance warning for all parties involved. And even then, it takes years and years for them to be effective.
Trump has wrecked something that has caused such an extreme result, it will plunge us into recession and he and the idiot Pubs who stood by them will all be tossed out in the coming elections (assuming he doesn't try to eliminate them which I still think he will). Then the Dems will come right behind him and wipe everything he's done clean. So we're right back to where we started except with a bunch of Americans' lives ruined.
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Clemson Icon [26119]
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Re: When you have the strongest economy in the history of the world
Apr 7, 2025, 11:29 AM
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Agree with your take on the role of the market. Whether quick action was needed, I dont know. He can be heavy handed: I agree with his directions, though his methods have been harsh. He's acting like the one term president that he is, but I might have gathered some bi-partisan support before invading on all fronts. But in today's climate, that might not have been possible. If Trump pets a puppy, Schumer says Hitler had a dog.
Strongest economy, yes, but as we know, one with a shrinking middle class. I was typing my response as you posted this, addressed this more below.
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All-TigerNet [5719]
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Tiger Titan [48932]
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It's not.
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Apr 8, 2025, 8:26 AM
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Do you think the solution to that problem is manipulating our free market?
Why not band together with our allies to combat China instead of alienating them with stupid tariffs? Read that Friedman article I posted.
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Tiger Titan [49026]
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cant have it both way sold man. you can't deport your workforce and
Apr 7, 2025, 10:41 AM
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demand domestic manufacturing
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Clemson Conqueror [11447]
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We did not need 10 million workers imported in 4 years. If we get rid of a
Apr 7, 2025, 11:15 AM
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couple million of them, we'll be fine - from a work force PoV.
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CU Medallion [20868]
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Tell that to business owners, builders, developers, and farmers,
Apr 8, 2025, 11:07 AM
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who still can't hire the people they need. Or maybe I should say 'needed' considering the sudden shift in prospects.
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Clemson Conqueror [11447]
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I just don't understand why we didn't need them 4 years ago. Suddenly
Apr 8, 2025, 11:42 AM
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we need 10 million folks as laborers? I ain't buying it.
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CU Medallion [20868]
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We've always needed immigrants to propel our economy and get jobs done.
Apr 8, 2025, 11:56 AM
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Take an authentic look at the true numbers that have remained here the last four years, the fours prior, and so on and so on. Ebbs and flows throughout regardless of party.
No worries though. All the new manufacturing being reshored by melting our economy down will be robotic, so less opportunities will mean fewer wanting to come here.
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Ultimate Tiger [33577]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
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Apr 7, 2025, 11:01 AM
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I have no problem with strategically using tariffs to protect certain industries for national defense, but that's not what is happening here.
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Clemson Icon [26119]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
Apr 7, 2025, 11:47 AM
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Allegedly (we'll see), this is not about protecting industries long term, but short term leverage to create a trade market. It had better work.
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Ultimate Tiger [33577]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
Apr 7, 2025, 11:52 AM
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The only real way to eliminate our trade deficits is for the dollar to crash. Then we will become net exporters.
My mother worked second shift in a mill when I was a kid, so forgive me if I don't have a great nostalgia for the return of that era.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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Clemson Icon [26119]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
Apr 7, 2025, 11:54 AM
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Was on the way. Seemed to have pulled back from that. Hopefully.
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Orange Immortal [65787]
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Generally speaking, the less dependent we are on other countries,
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Apr 7, 2025, 11:02 AM
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the better off we are. By no means, however, does that mean we should become isolationists or have adversarial relationships with the rest of the world. Free trade is a good thing and should benefit all parties involved.
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Ultimate Tiger [35198]
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The coin has 2 sides though...
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Apr 7, 2025, 11:05 AM
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Our labor rates are a lot higher than many parts of the world. For labor intensive manufacturing, is it really in our best net interest to make everything here and pay much higher prices.
I like the model where simple parts/subcomponents are brought in and final manufacturing/advanced manufacturing is done domestically (very general statement will all kind of exceptions).
For instance, is is a matter of national security that we bring in a lot of our clothes and textiles at lower prices versus domestic manufacturing?
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Orange Immortal [65787]
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Agreed - I wonder how we benefit from buying cars that cost
Apr 7, 2025, 11:58 AM
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40k to make vs. cars that cost 5k to make. I seems to me that cost of labor is the reason we lost all of our manufacturing to other countries in the first place, and not sure how we overcome that now.
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Ultimate Tiger [35198]
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That's the part no one is really talking about...
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Apr 7, 2025, 12:51 PM
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As a general statement, we haven't lost most of the manufacturing jobs because of tariffs...it's because of labor rates and general costs of doing business/overheads.
But manufacturing is still a big part of our economy and was already on the rise/rebound after COVID. Manufacturing is about 10% of GDP and of total jobs. When you add in indirect plus direct, manufacturing accounts for about 18% of GDP.
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Clemson Icon [26119]
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Re: Fundamental question Do you think the US needs a manufacturing base?
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Apr 7, 2025, 11:20 AM
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"Wealth inequity" has been a talking point for a while. We know we have a shrinking middle class. Bessent said on Face The Nation yesterday that in 2024 two numbers were at an all-time high: people taking vacations in Europe and people using food banks. I didnt fack-check that: various measures show this to be the case.
The only proposed solution has been taxes, which makes problem worse: see effect of trillions in direct payments 2020-2022.
My pet peeve and cause-of-choice has been the creation of a near oligarchy. Mergers went wild, as the FTC seems to have failed to protect the market.
The bigger villain might be a change in the job mix as we became a service economy. I did not realize the degree to which other counties tax our goods going to them (I knew some did it, but didn't know the degree.) If core processes are moved overseas, that would diminish the middle class.
Both of those issues are inequities in the free market. Fix them, and the middle class wins. Like all conservatives, I know tariffs are bad long term economic policy. However, some short term leverage has to be applied to reset the playing field.
How? I dont know. Tariffs scare me: This Had Better Work. And we havent addressed the local market, and imo we need to. The automatic partisan divide wont get us anywhere: if Trump had taken some opposite approach, Dems would have hated it and Reps loved it. (Que clips of politicians on both sides taking completely opposite positions.)
The market needs a leveling to rebuild the middle class. I'm open to hearing better ideas.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Ring of Honor [22317]
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Yes is certain sectors. No in labor intensive, low tech , low value industries***
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Apr 7, 2025, 11:43 AM
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Valley Legend [12296]
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That ship sailed a long time ago***
Apr 7, 2025, 12:37 PM
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