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Team Captain [468]
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Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 10:43 AM
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Up front, I will say that I am not a football coach and that I am strictly a fan. I love watching football and admit that I am not a highly technical analyst of the game.
I was excited when DJ was signed by Clemson and actually a bit offended when the bammer signee that year, Bryce Young, vaulted up the ratings close to signing day. I have also been a patient supporter of DJ last year and to this point in 2022.
Maybe it has been discussed here in other posts, but could it be that DJ does not have the footspeed to be an elite QB in college?
On Monday night, a friend sent me a message that said ~ I am watching the game with my wife. When DJ ran his 9 yard TD, his wife asked, "why are they showing this play in slow motion?" She seriously thought that the play had been slowed down while watching DJ run to the end zone!
So, the following numbers are from the internet, so take them as unverified results. Most of them came from either a recruiting profile or from the NFL combine reported results.
40-Yard Dash times (seconds)
DJ - 5.15
Cade Klubnik - I was not able to find a published 40 yard time for him
Hunter Johnson - 4.73
Kelly Bryant - 4.69
Tevor Lawrence - 4.78
Deshaun Watson - 4.68
Cole Stoudt - 4.79
Malik Cunningham - 4.55
Lamar Jackson - 4.34
Tim Tebow - 4.71
Bryce Young - 4.52
Baker Mayfield - 4.84
Joe Burrow - 4.89
Cam Newton - 4.59
Jameis Winston - 4.97
One source showed the 40 times for all NFL starting QB's as of 2019. There were 4 starters with 40 times over 5 seconds, but all except 1 of them were faster than DJ's time. The one outlier was Tom Brady at 5.28 seconds.
Additionally, from the 2022 NFL combine - every DE, every LB, every CB, and every S had 40 times faster than DJ. Additionally, 8 of the 13 DT's that were measured had faster times than DJ.
The question in my mind is "how fast is fast enough?" Based on the information I found online, I would conclude that elite QB's almost universally have a 40 time of less than 5 seconds (Brady being the obvious outlier). It makes sense that an elite QB would need enough speed to evade the defense, but not necessarily be able to outrun every defensive player.
I understand that DJ had 2 really good games against BC and ND in 2020. And he may also have some outstanding games in his future at Clemson, but I think that good defensive coaches will continue to use schemes that put DJ in situations that expose his "slowness" and cause the Clemson offense to underperform.
It is no shame on DJ or an assassination of his character to say that perhaps he is not fast enough to be an elite QB at the top level of college football.
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Legend [15863]
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cocaine a he77 of a dug
Sep 8, 2022, 10:45 AM
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....
oh wait ....
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Legend [19567]
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How fast was Boyd?***
Sep 8, 2022, 10:48 AM
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CU Medallion [64974]
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Lol, we don't know, Tajh ain't hit the tape yet.
Sep 8, 2022, 10:50 AM
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110%er [6858]
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I LOL'd***
Sep 8, 2022, 11:08 AM
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110%er [6825]
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All-In [37639]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 10:51 AM
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It's more the downers...
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Team Captain [468]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 10:59 AM
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It's more the downers...
OK, fine. If you read my post, you will see that I did not say anything "downer" on DJ or anyone else. Perhaps thinking and using data is not as cool on TNet as just saying "change QB's" or let's post "Furman Limericks" or "look at my fish" or whatever.
As you can see from my profile, I have been a member of TNet for a long time and rarely post anything because people on TNet, I guess, just come here for a "feel good" moment. I have often posted those "feel good" thoughts, but why be critical when a theory is presented with data to support it?
Have a nice day. I will go back into my cave and not waste time on posting any lucid thoughts here.
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MVP [541]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 11:52 AM
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He was making a joke about Speed (aka stimulants, meth for example) vs Downers (aka depressants, narcotics). It was not related to football. Still humorous, though.... IMHO
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Team Captain [468]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 7:39 PM
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He was making a joke about Speed (aka stimulants, meth for example) vs Downers (aka depressants, narcotics). It was not related to football. Still humorous, though.... IMHO
Oh, my bad. Too sensitive on my part. Thanks.
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110%er [5013]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 10:51 AM
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Some might say that if all of those QBs with sub 5sec times would slow down a bit, they might be as good as Brady....
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 10:59 AM
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no way to prove but it always has seemed guys with the strongest arms don't generally have the greatest foot speed. there are exceptions but most seem to get more of one than the other.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 11:00 AM
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Very few big guys in a up-right position (as compared to a DE) are going to look quick. DJ isn't slow but neither fast.
Next pull the size of that list. Toss out those that are under 6'2" (like Deshaun)
We know that TL was "quick" but still not blazing fast for that list. He still was not over 230lbs
If he was fast... he would be Cam Newton.
It isn't physical speed, it is more about risk avoidance making him look (and act slow).
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All-TigerNet [10866]
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Decision speed, yeah. Not foot-speed.***
Sep 8, 2022, 11:02 AM
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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QB speed is not just measured in how fast their feet move
Sep 9, 2022, 3:19 AM
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but also the speed at which they make their reads and react correctly. DJ is a big guy that is not as mobile or agile as Clemson's past QB's under Dabo. That is not a criticism of DJ but just a fact. But the speed of what goes on between his ears is probably just as important as the speed of his feet.
What makes a good pro QB (Brady, Manning, and Brees being examples) is their ability to look at a defense and within a second of the ball being snapped knowing exactly where to throw the ball and to do so accurately. Last year I think this was DJ's biggest problem - he was too slow on his decision cycle and was late on a lot of his throws. Late decisions usually means throwing to covered receivers or ball placement being off where the whole thing just goes down hill from there.
During Monday's GT game - it looked to me like DJ has improved on his decision making and accuracy. Is DJ's improvement enough to get us to where we want to be? I don't know - but from the one series we saw of Cade Klubnik it sure looks like we do have a QB on the roster who has both fast feet and fast decision making skills...
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Yes. Thanks for the info.
Sep 8, 2022, 11:06 AM
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Modern QBs need to be able to move their feet and maintain their mechanics while throwing on the move. DJ lacks the speed and athleticism to make enough plays when things inevitably break down. That probably affects the pressure he feels and his decision making as he knows he cannot escape trouble.
Our offensive line, wide receivers, tight ends, running backs and OC are likely better than they appear with an immobile QB. Perhaps much better.
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Legend [17522]
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Well stated... high end speed cannot be practiced or coached
Sep 9, 2022, 12:45 AM
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Smart post inquiry by tjohnson6317® ... smart answer by Chuckston T-Man® ...
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 11:11 AM
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I do not believe you when you say you support DJ. I also do not believe the 40 times.
I guess they never saw Trevor out run the Ohio State Players.
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Team Captain [468]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 12:06 PM
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I do not believe you when you say you support DJ. I also do not believe the 40 times.
I guess they never saw Trevor out run the Ohio State Players.
So you know nothing about me other than this post and you are calling me dishonest? Wow, you have god-like ability to discern people’s heart by reading a post.
As for not believing the 40 times, perhaps you are also saying that I made them up or adjusted the ones that didn’t fit my assertion? I said up front that they came from various internet sites. I did not time anyone and I can’t vouch for the values, but I will absolutely say that the values I presented here were from recruiting or nfl websites.
And finally, I don’t care what you think about my support of DJ or that you don’t believe the data.
I hope you have a great rest of your day. Maybe you can find someone else to cast judgement upon.
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Legend [17522]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 9, 2022, 12:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is Speed the Problem? ] |
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1965tiger ... I believe you two are comparing apples & oranges. Yes, TL16 did out run Ohio State DB's who had to shift directions and could not catch Trevor running at full speed. And it was glorious!
But TL16, with those long legs, had to fight through some inertia to get to top speed -- and the start-up would definitely affect his 40 time. But yes, he can move out once he gets started!
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All-In [31199]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 11:11 AM
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Nothing more than a fan but this offense needs a mobile QB, and not talking designed runs. Scrambling after the play is toast. IMO it’s one less thing the defense has to worry about. I believe his arm is as strong as anyone’s but the receivers and his progression will have to be quick or he will eat a lot of footballs behind LOS. NC State and Pitt games last year were prime examples…
Ga as well but it was the first game and they had the best DL in the country so that was a tall ask imo.
All we can ask for is continued improvement. First game of the year so plenty to work on and improve in a lot of areas.
Happy we got the win no doubt!
Hope everyone is having a great day! Go Tigers!
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All-In [43574]
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So if DJ were 1 full second faster, he'd be in olympic speed
Sep 8, 2022, 11:45 AM
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territory.
Let's say he WAS a full second faster.
Have you noticed a time in his career where he ran 40 yards and thought to yourself: Man he'd be a MUCH BETTER quarterback if he got there 1 second earlier?
Prolly not, move on. Thanks for the research though.
Also, you answered your own question with Tom Brady. Best quarterback in the history of football.
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Orange Blooded [3849]
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Not sure all of those times are accurate
Sep 8, 2022, 11:50 AM
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Some are hand timed vs electronically timed. Even though he took long strides, I’m pretty certain Trevor is/was faster than Deshaun.
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Team Captain [468]
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Re: So if DJ were 1 full second faster, he'd be in olympic speed
Sep 8, 2022, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to So if DJ were 1 full second faster, he'd be in olympic speed ] |
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territory.
Let's say he WAS a full second faster.
Have you noticed a time in his career where he ran 40 yards and thought to yourself: Man he'd be a MUCH BETTER quarterback if he got there 1 second earlier?
Prolly not, move on. Thanks for the research though.
Also, you answered your own question with Tom Brady. Best quarterback in the history of football.
Yeah, I think you missed my point completely. I don’t care what DJ’s 40 time is. If he was as successful as we want him to be, no one would care about his 40 time and this post wouldn’t exist. However, his slow 40 speed may not be the issue, but it could point to the underlying reason for his inability to avoid pressure and his generally poor rushing ability.
Yes, to the point made by others, his decision making speed may be part of the problem, but lightning fast decision making ability with very slow feet likely wouldn’t make the situation extremely better.
And Brady… I included his stat to be fair in the analysis, but don’t tell me that his outlier 40 time disproves the preponderance of the evidence that elite QB’s almost all have sub 5 second times.
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All-In [43574]
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Far too simple and frankly lazy to think DJ's
Sep 8, 2022, 1:17 PM
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40 time correlating AT ALL with his performance. Some of the shiftiest and quickest dudes to come through CU had poor 40 times. A 40 time is not a great reflection for how QBs move within a pocket, read defenses while moving, etc.
Just spitballing here, but other factors include:
Overall WR play
Play calls
How defenses are lined up, then what they do after
Overall OL play
DJs ability to assess the grand scheme, often while under pressure
Coaching instruction
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CU Guru [1053]
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I had a similar thought but haven't rewatched enough of the
Sep 8, 2022, 12:00 PM
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game. But go back and watch the replay of the QB draw/run on the second drive when DJ fumbled. That play was blocked well, I kept watching several times trying to figure out how the defenders got free to make the tackle after a few yards. The thing that stood out was how long it took for DJ to get to the line.
I get it was a draw, but there was enough time for Shipley to come back and be his lead blocker. The hole is there and Shipley is going though the hole, but DJ is still back 7 yards and hasn't started his run. At this point, the pass fake is over, Shipley is running as a lead blocker and the D is reacting to it, but DJ is still in the backfield. It was just a slow play, and the slow play killed the blocking. It had nothing to do with the fumble, but the play would have been totally different if he had been faster behind Shipley. Everything was blocked if he had been following his lead blocker. (But I am old, we ran out of the I with a full back, so maybe the concepts have changed.)
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Orange Blooded [4760]
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A quarterback needs to be quick enough
Sep 8, 2022, 12:09 PM
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for me not to be yelling “Throw the danm ball!” at the TV set.
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Hall of Famer [24509]
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I respect your take....***
Sep 8, 2022, 12:18 PM
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 1:11 PM
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I don't know if it's a lack of foot speed as much as he is seemingly a half-second slow in making decisions - be it moving in the pocket, looking for a different receiver, or taking off to run, and then once that decision is made it seems he always makes an awkward, off-balance first step that gets him in even more trouble. I do think he has improved considerably since last year, (after the first quarter of the game on Monday), and I look forward to seeing if he gets even more comfortable in the next few games. I am sure the pressure to perform perfectly has been tough on him, hopefully he can get past that and just play over the next few games. I also think he did a much better job of getting rid of the ball to his safety receiver on Monday than I thought he did at any point last year.
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Hall of Famer [22260]
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Yes, but not 40 times or whatever... decision speed by the
Sep 8, 2022, 7:58 PM
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QB. Watch that last drive by Cade. Never any doubt or indecision. Guy's open, boom, hit him right in the facemask. Later - quick pump fake left, and then a laser downfield into traffic for a completion. In what, 2 seconds? Quick reads and decision making.
He could lolly-gag around in the pocket until it collapses, and then folks would blame the OL. Or he could wait too long to deliver the ball to an open WR, and now the safety is bearing down and about to dislodge his spine... and folks blame the WR.
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Orange Blooded [3583]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 8:02 PM
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To add to your list, Hunter Helms 40 time is 4.50 sec.
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110%er [5471]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 8, 2022, 8:20 PM
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The reason you can’t find Cades 40 time is Dabo has a long standing policy that freshman are not timed.
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 9, 2022, 12:32 AM
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Thanks for your post and the thoughts and research behind it.
Now my response:
1) DJ was "successful" (remember, he did lose a great game at ND while performing admirably) in his performance as a freshman because he was throwing to 5th-year seniors who had the best games of their careers with him, but he couldn't move the ball consistently in the OT. He was handed the keys to the Mustang already tuned up. He had great composure but was more limited than the guy who tuned it up. And his WRs knew how to get themselves open for him.
2) I agree with everyone else--UGA not only destroyed his confidence last year, but the rest of the season exposed his limitations. One is footspeed. But a bigger one is in making quick decisions.
Which leads to...
3) DJ is currently suffering from--but improving on--paralysis by analysis. He's thinking too much. What single play sparked our offense on Monday? It wasn't the blocked punt, because it still took us 4 plays to go 5 yards to capitalize on that great play. IT WAS THE BACKYARD LATERAL PLAY, when 2 guys just made a play regardless of how ill-advised it was. After that, the play calls weren't any different; he just played with a rhythm. And we moved the ball.
Sometimes the right decision becomes wrong because you took too long making it. Just like sometimes DW4 got away with wrong decisions because he was so decisive and had the skills to pull it off (Kelly Bryant eventually did not, because his game was too predictable.) Personally I think DW4 was much slower than TL16--we saw him get run down from behind numerous times. But his first step was soooo decisive that he created enough space to move the chains--and that's the primary purpose of a QB run. (You don't want your QB taking a pounding for a meaningless 3 yards before you punt.) DeShaun's decision-making was so quick that he could even change his mind and leave the defense flat-footed. And the efficiency in his footwork was amazing: remember his TD sweep against SoKar when he had the torn ACL, or his first step on the TD run in the downpour against ND? Some of the best footwork I've ever seen.
I saw significant improvement from DJ on Monday. He actually threw with touch. He was fairly accurate on his throws. He read the pressure most times but not always the coverage. He didn't throw a pick. He played with his teammates and communicated well with them. BUT he didn't inspire his team to move the ball, and his coach believed that the vanilla-play-calling in the first half and letting the defense and ST win the game kwas the best bet.
So I too think Cade will eventually become the starter--i'm not going to put a timeline on it--because he plays faster and looser. He will need to learn to avoid getting suckered like Chase Brice still does, but I think he will learn from what mistakes he does make. Nobody on our schedule will do to Cade's confidence what UGA did to DJ's until we get to the CFP, at which point pressure goes with the territory.
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CU Guru [1786]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 9, 2022, 10:38 AM
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I think you nailed it. Thanks.
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Orange Blooded [2006]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 9, 2022, 10:49 AM
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I think it is more of the quickness it takes him to make a decision to either throw it down field or pull the ball down and run. He hopes his OL can hold the DL back long enough he can make the throw down field. I think it is a combination of the WRs not getting separation as well. Or the routes are just too long in development. Those plays need to be thrown out the window until we can make it down field more. If we have to dink and dunk our way down field then so be it. But having a 4 and 5 WR set and not being able to complete a pass is ridiculous. Run some slants or some ins or outs or something to get his confidence up and the WRs then work on play action. I would love some better spirals on his throws too. the balls get there but they are a wobbly mess sometimes.
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Head Coach [758]
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Re: Is Speed the Problem?
Sep 9, 2022, 12:32 PM
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Speed is only a problem if you don't have any!
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