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Replies: 59
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Game Changer [1622]
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For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:29 PM
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I’m genuinely curious to see what you see our path being back to winning a NC without Dabo making any changes to his current stance(s) or staff.
When we were building to our 2 NCs under CDS you could see the path. First the offensive change in philosophy under Chad, then the D under BV. The Oline got stronger, and key players coming into place. I just don’t see that right now, in fact it feels like the opposite, with talent leaving faster than we can replace it and a coaching staff that, while it has some bright spots, seems to be stuck in neutral (if not reverse) as a whole.
This isn’t me being a smarta$$. Myself and many others on this board have a similar view where we’re headed and how we’ll get there without changes.
How do you see things playing out, and over how long, that Dabo holds the current course and we end up back with a CFP trophy?
Message was edited by: Bravesfan102925®
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Dynasty Maker [3461]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:36 PM
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I wonder if the other 68 power five teams that won’t win a national championship are thinking the same thought .
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Tiger Titan [50695]
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I thought Best is the Standard?
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:38 PM
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Now we are comparing ourselves to all the other Power Five teams?
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Clemson Icon [26237]
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Re: I thought Best is the Standard?
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:27 PM
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🤣🤣 Brad's wife has spoken.
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Dynasty Maker [3283]
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He does have a point, you know . . .
Nov 25, 2024, 8:43 AM
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whatever the truth is regarding CDS's job performance - it's still the case that hiring decisions, etc., praises or criticisms aren't validated or nullified by tossing out "whataboutisms" in reference to any and every program regardless of resources, history, prestige, money, recruiting, etc.
And I'm not saying Dabo needs to go portal-crazy - I'm not necessarily one of those guys, either.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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Dumb response
He isn't talking about other programs. He is talking about Clemson. Talking about players games, recruiting, strategy, building a program .... is literally why the a sports board exists. I may not agree with where I think he is going with the question, but it's not an unreasonable topic.
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Letterman [158]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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I wonder if the other 68 power five teams that won’t win a national championship are thinking the same thought .
Dumb response
He isn't talking about other programs. He is talking about Clemson. Talking about players games, recruiting, strategy, building a program .... is literally why the a sports board exists. I may not agree with where I think he is going with the question, but it's not an unreasonable topic.
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Commissioner [1277]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:37 PM
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Unfortunately I agree with you. Unless Clemson starts paying millions to buy really good players (which I hate) I just don't see getting the game changing players anymore. Will never see another DW4 or TL16 again. It was fun while it lasted but it's sure not college football to me anymore
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Tiger Titan [50695]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:39 PM
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Game Changer [1796]
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No, you have an aversion to this truth...
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:38 PM
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and the snide "cop out" gif reaction is a defense mechanism and clear evidence of your hostility and distaste for the truth in this circumstance-
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Asst Coach [873]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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It's like under performing brad losing to Boise state
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Varsity [104]
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Clemson Conqueror [11494]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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Clemson’s only path to competing at the highest level means, in this era of NIL and unpunished tampering, depends upon differentiating the Clemson football value proposition in a manner that is convincing to enough very good HS players on a consistent basis.
We are punching above our financial weight class in the current time, but are gradually getting weaker. Cracks in the depth situation at LB and DE positions illustrate a weakening of our defense compared to the previous dozen or so years.
On the payment of NIL money, apparently Clemson is indeed doing better than what our alumni base’s financial resources possess.
The problem moving forward is not whether or not we pay one or two million $’s per star player, but rather whether we can compete in a bidding war against programs that will pay ~$5M per player, and how to balance the NIL budget, so to speak, to minimize the payouts to 7nproven HS recruits so that we can compete against programs trying to buy our established stars -&- those rising stars (but currently backups) which have not produced yet, but whose potential justifies the risk that an outside program will out-bid us to retain them.
Dabo has worked tirelessly and, I might suggest, uniquely to create the Clemson value proposition that may appeal only to a small minority of star HS prospects, but for which enough of those star HS prospects can be accumulated to … every once in a while … compete at the highest level of CFB.
Remember, even if the accumulation of talent and maturation of that talent converges, football is still a game in which upsets do occur. Even in the best of personnel circumstances, a critical loss will mean no National Championship in that season.
In summary, another Nationa Championship is possible, but less likely to occur during this era of NIL as currently structured.
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Varsity [104]
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So you used a term that you can't - or won't
Nov 25, 2024, 8:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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objectively define. Color me unsurprised.
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Game Changer [1974]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 25, 2024, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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How much are you “pay millions $$ for players” folks willing to chip in????
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:44 PM
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The overarching theme is that we return a lot of underclassman that gained a ton of experience and confidence this year
- Cade will have another year of development, and from what I’ve seen the kid has more drive than just about anyone
- The O-Line will have an additional year under Matt Luke, this plus the confidence they gained this year will elevate them next year
- Our young WR corps (especially Moore) and our Secondary will have an extra year of experience
- We lose Barrett, but Sammy is a dude and with another year in the system will start to be more of a coach on the field
- PWoods and TJ Parker are sophomores… And with the development at DE which will get those two back in the middle
Also, just like last year when Dabo selectively offered a few O-Lineman from the portal, I see him taking the same approach this year… Not sure what position he’s want to go after, but maybe DE or LB if any non-tampered with transfers are interested in competing for a spot
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Clemson Conqueror [11115]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:43 PM
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You are assuming all these guys return. I personally think Wesco and Moore are lured away by the money along with others.
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:49 PM
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I mean we have the 2nd highest retention amongst P4 schools and NIL is there for those who Dabo wants on the team…
Is it possible we lose them, sure, unfortunately anything is possible in College Football today… but to me the data suggests, that we’ll keep them and have a really good year next year
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Clemson Conqueror [11494]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:28 PM
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I agree that 2025 represents the best chance for us to have a stellar season during this current decade.
As with our 2015 (second place) team, we must be fortunate enough to avoid serious injuries to our starters. High quality depth will be weaker in 2024 at DT; the high quality depth at LB will not likely be better than it is here in 2024. Our offense must be good enough to both sustain drives and to improve our scoring percentages on long drives; this will be critical not only from the points production aspect but also from the resting the defense aspect.
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 6:58 PM
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Completely agree… gonna need a little luck to stay healthy
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Varsity [104]
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Game Changer [1622]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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Thank you for at least putting together a thoughtful response. Based on that you feel like the team will put enough together to make a serious run next season?
Next season we have 2 main Challenges;
LSU - although with how they’re ending this season who knows if they even have a coach
SMU- honestly I don’t know how their roster will look like on returning guys so maybe not even a problem
Likely wins
@SCar -probably losing their coach plus most players
Syracuse
Duke
At BC
At Lville
At UNC
At GT
No Doubt Wins
FS who?
Troy
Furman
I see us being able to run the table, or finish 11-1, so making the playoffs is a high probability. I’d just be curious to see how we match up against other top teams since we don’t ever see them in our garbage conference
ClemsonGrad2011®
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 9:36 PM
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Of course, I think the debate is fun
In regards to your likely win list I agree, I mean on paper we should have more talent than anyone we play. Assuming the guys who are supposed to come back do, the expectation next year should be to win every game, win the conference, and make the playoffs.
Where we disagree is that I think the ACC actually has decent depth and will prepare us just fine. A few reasons why -
- ACC teams compete with other conferences. Think Us vs Bama in years past, Miami vs Florida, BC vs Missouri
- Because of the transfer portal, parody is at an all time high… Vandy beating Bama is evidence enough and the same parody now exists in the ACC
I’m still excited about the end of this season, but I have even higher hopes for next year and actually think the program is trending in the right direction.
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Game Changer [1622]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 25, 2024, 8:37 AM
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I’ve got a hard disagreement on your take of the ACC. It is hot garbage. The SEC is nowhere near as dominant as in years past, they all have glaring weaknesses, but nothing compared to this woeful basketball conference. If you match ACC/SEC up 1v1, 2v2 down the line you’ll struggle to find many wins for the ACC outside of the bottom half of the league. Sure the ACC gets some mismatched non conference wins against the dregs of the SEC, but besides us who’s playing any SEC teams from the top 1/4 of the league?
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Commissioner [1271]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 25, 2024, 3:27 PM
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Yeah, I mean I’m in no way saying the ACC is better than then SEC or the Big10, I just don’t think the gap is as large as the national media would lead you to believe… a big part of that is that some ACC schools appear to finally be investing in football
- Miami has Cristobal who has recruiting rolling down there
- GT, BC, Louisville, Duke, and UVA all seem to have made good coaching hires and are trending up
- FSU sucks, but if you listen to their board meetings it’s not for lack of financial investments and I think it’s only a matter of time (and maybe a new coach) before they relevant again
Again, not saying that everyone of theses teams would crush it in the SEC or Big10, but I think they’ve taken a step forward the same way that Vandy has had some good showings this year
Question, if Indiana or Tennessee had our schedule what do you think their records would be?
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Top TigerNet [29863]
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Why are you assuming there will be no changes in coaching staff?
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:45 PM
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What is the longest Dabo has ever gone without making a change on the coaching staff?
According to the official website, There have been 7 changes in the last 4 years, including 2 this year. At least one change very year for the past 4 seasons.
Dabo may be accused of several things. But, refusing to change the coaching staff should not be one of those.
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Valley Legend [12609]
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Re: Why are you assuming there will be no changes in coaching staff?
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:55 PM
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Sorry Bret …… that’s not what the “fire half the coaching staff every year” want to hear!
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Game Changer [1622]
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Ring of Honor [22709]
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Campus Hero [13997]
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been almost 3 hours since someone posted this, thought we were in a drought!
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:46 PM
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give it break already
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1st Rounder [662]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 4:49 PM
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I see our biggest issue other than NIL wars that we don’t win is being in the ACC. We lost one game in conference and one against a top 10 team and aren’t really mentioned at all for a playoff spot unless we sneak in. One ACC loss is worth 3 in the SEC. Without winning the conference each year, there is not a good chance of getting in unless we only lose to the best ACC school.
With that being said, the unbalanced ACC schedule without divisions doesn’t truly make the championship game a true representation of the best teams anymore. It all comes down to luck of you schedule unless you are an elite team. I personally miss the divisions when you played everyone you competed with for a CG berth.
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Clemson Conqueror [11494]
TigerPulse: 98%
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:37 PM
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I agree with you.
I liked the previous Atlantic and Coastal division setup. With the conference expansion, that arrangement became untenable. Every team desperately wants two gimme teams that represent an always-home game for creating a yearly schedule that provides for 7 home games.
We still have a better chance of running the table in the ACC than we do of having better than a three loss season if we were in the SEC.
If it weren’t for the monetary disparity between SEC and ACC, then I’d much rather stay in the ACC. Alas, the disparity is not going to go away; it will probably get worse.
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Game Changer [1622]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 6:43 PM
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I don’t know, imagine during the heyday of our rivalry with FSU. It was the de facto ACCCG in like September because the coastal was hot garbage. Wouldn’t it have been better to get a rematch of a great game instead of sending a sacrificial coastal lamb to Charlotte every year? I think it should be the 2 best teams, and I’d rather miss it because there’s some schedule disparity to someone with the same record than to someone who just got lucky playing in the coastal and was barely over .500
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CU Guru [1574]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:56 PM
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No. There should be a well defined structure where the outcome is decided by teams playing beach other on the field.
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
TigerPulse: 86%
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We had about the EASIEST ACC Schedule we could hope for yet......
Nov 24, 2024, 7:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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we're still hoping for some last game heroics of ANOTHER team to get us to the ACCCG.
Playing in the SEC / B10 would be much worse and we'd be at a far worse disadvantage vs about half of them.........especially the SEC.
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MVP [546]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:06 PM
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Sure you're being a smarta$$ just like all the other armchair quarterbacks sitting at home that think they have all the answers. Here's a thought why don't we just let the professionals who do this for a living worry about how to get things done or you can hop your genius a$$ out there and showem how to supposedly fix things you don't like. Gimme a frikkin break
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Game Changer [1796]
TigerPulse: 88%
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Musta thought dis was a Clemson football discussion board, the big dummy ****
Nov 24, 2024, 5:44 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
TigerPulse: 86%
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LOL......I and several others HAVE had the answers........and DABO slowly....
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Nov 24, 2024, 6:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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has addressed them.
The ONLY things he hasn't addressed is his philosophy w/ NIL/Portal and that's the one hill he seems to want to die on and take the program down w/ him. Sure, the ACC is a bunch of sisters of the poor and Clemson has a FLOOR of about 8-4 on a bad year, but if ELITE is to EVER return to Clemson Dabo needs to adapt...........Fans better pray we don't head to the SEC/B10 unless he changes his ways.
News flash on the "professionals" comment. Dabo's slowplayed the issues/made the wrong call (ie streeter hire). You don't need to be a coach to point out the BIG issues w/ the program............just need common sense.
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Associate AD [1044]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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Paw you are without a doubt the biggest @ss on this board.
He asked a legitimate question which has gotten several legitimate answers and it’s a good topic.
After all… this is a message board for debate and banter. If you don’t like it then don’t click on it. Nobody needs to see your hateful condescending responses on any thread especially the legitimate ones.
There was absolute nothing stupid or moronic about this post. If you’re cool with letting the people who get paid to figure out to figure it out then cool… but not everybody thinks like you do (thank God).
But you took the time to click on it… read it… and then type out a ridiculous @###### response bc you’re sitting behind a keyboard.
Just shut your mouth and mind your business if you can’t bring anything to the table other than… oh you’re a moron.
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Ring of Honor [22709]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 7:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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And then what would you suggest we talk about?
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Clemson Icon [24997]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:09 PM
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Who knows? Every year and team are different.
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Commissioner [1204]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 5:12 PM
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I heard the announcers for the game say that Dabo has 25 ex-athletes on staff. I would be curious how that compares to other programs. That seems like an over the top number to me.
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TigerNet Elite [70620]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:12 PM
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Why don’t you just enjoy the success we have had over Dabo’s tenure? Dwelling on the negatives helps no one. We still have a top notch program, but we may not get another national championship for 20 or 30 years. Try to revel in the great times, enjoy the good times, and tolerate the average times.
Go Tigers!!! Beat South Carolina!!!
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Clemson Icon [26237]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:29 PM
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They love the misery.
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TigerNet Elite [70620]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 5:46 PM
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Makes no sense to me. To each their own.
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Orange Elite [5161]
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Hard to say.
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:28 PM
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College football is at a crossroads. Most programs have chosen which way they'll go, it seems.
How it all plays out will be interesting to watch. Some schools, like FSU, aren't thriving with a portal-first approach. Others are using the portal as a stop-gap. Like Texas. Or Ohio State. And they're seeing some success.
But Dabo Swinney has signaled an aversion to the portal and a pay-to-play system. He's staked his claim on recruiting HS kids and developing them at a high level.
As of this poast, there is not a lot of evidence to suggest his method is going to in the long-term prove itself inferior to other methods that embrace a more robust approach to the portal/NIL.
I say that because Clemson is in a position to compete for a conference title (again), which would open the door for a another playoff berth.
As a fan, I probably should not ask for more. Because to ask for more would be to ask Clemson football to be perfect. And perfectionism is arrogance.
You may call that "sunshine pumping." I call it realism.
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Ring of Honor [22709]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Hard to say.
Nov 24, 2024, 7:47 PM
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The most relevant part of your response is “developing our high school talent at a high level.”
My question would be whether or not we’ve hired the right staff to actually achieve this, and is it transitioning into our results like we expect?
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CU Guru [1574]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 7:50 PM
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My issue is that you are assuming the proposed changed will work.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Game Changer [1622]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:57 PM
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Yeah the next 3-5 years are going to be a clusterf*ck in terms of roster management. All the more reason to ensure you have the best staff on hand possible to coach a potentially transient team of players. We are willing to shell out the money for top tier coaches, there’s few schools we can’t poach coordinators and position coaches from at this point so there’s no excuse not to have the best, and at a minimum proven experienced professionals
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Legend [6705]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
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Nov 24, 2024, 7:57 PM
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It’s not the coaching it’s the Jimmy’s and Joe’s. If you notice, we don’t have a Deshaun Watson or Trevor Lawrence. We don’t have a Christian Wilkins or the other Power Rangers. We don’t have a Travis ETN. The problem is not coaching The problem is talent. These days that may be all about money, but the bottom line is we have average to above average players. Not elite players like we had in 2016 and 18.
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Clemson Conqueror [11587]
TigerPulse: 86%
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agreed.....however getting the talent is coaching too........
Nov 24, 2024, 8:04 PM
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he needs to change his ways to GET THE TALENT
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Orange Phenom [14582]
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Yep this is clearly the #1 issue
Nov 25, 2024, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: For the sunshine pumpers ] |
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I'd rather have Wes coaching our 2018 defense than Brent coaching our current roster.
Regardless of the reason, recruiting is clearly trending in the wrong direction. We are losing blue chip recruits to Duke and GT now. The 2025 class has now fallen to about 30th overall and only has 13 commits. We've been averaging 11 or 12 outgoing transfers per year over the past 3 seasons, and our current recruiting class is barely enough to replenish those numbers.
Worst case scenario now is that we lose somebody like Woods, Wesco, or Moore.
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TigerNet Icon [152639]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 2010
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No one can tell you how long it will take without changes without guessing
1
Nov 24, 2024, 8:08 PM
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and no one can tell you how long it will take with changes without guessing.
Message was edited by: Francis Marion®
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Game Changer [1622]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: No one can tell you how long it will take without changes without guessing
Nov 24, 2024, 9:06 PM
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Thank you Yogi Berra
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Game Day Hero [4572]
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 24, 2024, 9:37 PM
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I literally spend ZERO seconds worrying about that.
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Asst Coach [829]
TigerPulse: 95%
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 25, 2024, 9:21 AM
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Let’s see. Clemson is 9-2 with a chance of going 10-2.
And maybe making the playoffs. So I guess the sky is falling. 🤦
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Orange Blooded [2516]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
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Re: For the sunshine pumpers
Nov 25, 2024, 12:23 PM
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I fault your base premise of Dabo not making any changes.
Regarding staff; We have recently seen the dismissal and replacement of 3 major coaching positions, two being the most cried about on this site: Offensive Coordinator and Offensive Line coach.
Regarding recruiting: without a doubt we have had a falloff and this years decommitments are concerning. Changes are coming regarding revenue that fit Dabo’s philosophy. We will likely even see success in attracting some portal players in the off season.
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Paw Master [16638]
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Is this perhaps a bit of revisionist history? I'll bet if you went back to the
Nov 25, 2024, 1:25 PM
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pre national championship days, you'd hear plenty of people questioning what we were doing...someone is always knocking our Oline and plenty of people, I'm sure, were plenty skeptical of hiring a high school coach to run our offense.
As a matter of fact, I would put "Hiring the OC of the year away from TCU" and "Hire Matt Luke to coach offensive line" as on par with any bold coaching move Dabo has ever had.
So, my guess would be that the vision is "recruit quality players and invest in them and the culture" coupled with "hire a strong coaching staff" as the way back. Of course, we shall see...David Hood's post seems to indicate that more current methods of building a winning team will be on the table.
In the meantime, we are on the cusp of a potential "win and we are in" game...not too shabby for a season that for some reason has the entire fanbase scratching their eyes out.
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Game Changer [2037]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: P5 football is very volatile right now
Nov 25, 2024, 1:53 PM
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And it's really hard to predict what will happen. With conferences all expanding to 16 plus teams, we are also seeing it play out some teams get the benefit of an uneven schedule., more so than ever.
The top end of most rosters has equaled out enough where we are seeing more competition than I can remember.
I think the biggest issue is just not having Venables around plain and simple... You can't replace that fire in tenacity, and you saw it on full display last Saturday against Bama.
Have to find a way to get the defensive edge back, because offensively I don't think there's too much difference in what we've done in the past and we can be successful enough to win if you play complimentary football, which is probably the biggest challenge right now.
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